Arkansas SAFE act "The nation's first trial over a state's ban on gender-confirming care for children " (1 Viewer)

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Now do vaccines

Since this particular discussion started out with ...

well yes, my point is society DOES tell parents and children what's acceptable at what ages and what isn't, don't we ? (in many examples)

Sure, for a good reason.

... this is easy.

Protecting the masses is pretty much the reason for the social contract to begin with. Forcing people to be who the masses wants them to be has been a part of government for a long time, but those reasons are less and less reasonable every day (if they ever were.)

 

[tommyGunZ]

Sure, for a good reason.

It is not a good reason to deny about 1 or 2 percentage of the population the care that they need because
A tiny few later change their mindsSociety is too lazy to regulate the providersThe masses in society don't understand what it means to be transSociety is running out of groups to flex their intolerance

do you think all age limits/restrictions should be dismantled ?

its not an intolerance thing ........ some people see this as child abuse, some people see their kids being influenced and led by books, drag shows, tv/media and they don't want those influences on their kids because they are KIDS and are highly influential at early stages in lives

its a wait until 18 law .......... why anyone would object to that ?

The American Medical Association and American Pediatric Association both object. The consensus amongst experts in the relevant fields is that gender affirmation is the proper course.

Why do you think you know more about this issue that the AMA and APA?

 

[tommyGunZ]

unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,

you and I could list dozens of things/views that are different than our own and we'd both agree kids shouldn't be able to do .......... why are those different ?

I reject when a kid makes life changing decisions at 8 years old or 10 years old absolutely yes because they are kids, easily influenced, not mature enough to make life altering decisions

absolutely - its why we don't let kids vote, get married, buy guns, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc etc isn't it ?

I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?

Now do vaccines

Are you leaving out the "with consultation from their doctors" in your analysis?

I’ll give you 3 guesses and the first two don’t count.

 

[tommyGunZ]

This law is absurd, unconstitutional, and a perfect example of the hollowness of the GOP’s small govt principles.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,

you and I could list dozens of things/views that are different than our own and we'd both agree kids shouldn't be able to do .......... why are those different ?

I reject when a kid makes life changing decisions at 8 years old or 10 years old absolutely yes because they are kids, easily influenced, not mature enough to make life altering decisions

absolutely - its why we don't let kids vote, get married, buy guns, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc etc isn't it ?

I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?

Now do vaccines

Are you leaving out the "with consultation from their doctors" in your analysis?

Nope. Now do vaccines with consultation from their doctors.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,

you and I could list dozens of things/views that are different than our own and we'd both agree kids shouldn't be able to do .......... why are those different ?

I reject when a kid makes life changing decisions at 8 years old or 10 years old absolutely yes because they are kids, easily influenced, not mature enough to make life altering decisions

absolutely - its why we don't let kids vote, get married, buy guns, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc etc isn't it ?

I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?

Now do vaccines

Are you leaving out the "with consultation from their doctors" in your analysis?

I’ll give you 3 guesses and the first two don’t count.

You'd be about as successful as the Padres were last night against Wheeler

 

[BladeRunner]

This law is absurd, unconstitutional, and a perfect example of the hollowness of the GOP’s small govt principles.

yeah, okay.

Same shtick, different day.

 

[the moops]

unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,

you and I could list dozens of things/views that are different than our own and we'd both agree kids shouldn't be able to do .......... why are those different ?

I reject when a kid makes life changing decisions at 8 years old or 10 years old absolutely yes because they are kids, easily influenced, not mature enough to make life altering decisions

absolutely - its why we don't let kids vote, get married, buy guns, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc etc isn't it ?

I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?

Now do vaccines

Are you leaving out the "with consultation from their doctors" in your analysis?

Nope. Now do vaccines with consultation from their doctors.

There were indeed people whose doctors recommended they hold off on the vaccine. I don't remember exactly what patients fell into that category, but I think they were folks with cancer, highly immunocompromised, and infants. I never uttered a word about those folks, in consultation with their doctor, for not get the vaccine

 

[Stealthycat]

I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?

do we let parents decide that their kids can acquire illegal drugs? buy a house/get a mortgage? use tobacco/alcohol? marry?

I mean we don't let a lot of things happen in our society regardless of what a kid wants to do, right? because they're kids - that's the ultimate reason - they're not adult enough to make decisions

did you read the Buck Angel article/post I made?

 

[Gatorman]

Wow, so much wrong here, and its almost hard to believe how wrong you are. This is basically a real issue that requires none of your usual silliness.

First off: Basically shrugging off mental health issues or minimizing them regardless of the cause is kind of obtuse on your part. Also the "we should all agree" is a pretty good straw man starter especially since it seems you have really no knowledge on the subject.

This law is not about "the kids". This law is about fearmongering. If you wanted to make a law about "the kids" how about starting with guns? Guns seem to be doing more damage to kids in school that what bathroom someone uses.

again the comparison to mental health ............ are you saying trans is a mental health disorder ?

and ummmmm we don't allow kids to buy guns or ammunition, or tobacco or alcohol, we don't let them write their own prescription drugs etc etc because they're not adults, not capable of being trusted with really important things like that, right ?

so you show that you didn’t read anything anyone posts…. KIDS DO NOT MAKE THIS DECISION BY THEMSELVES OR FLIPPANTLY. THEY MAKE THIS CHIOICE WITH THEI FAMILY AND WITH THEIR PHYSICIAN.

again, this is all about fear Mongering. Plain and simple.

Man you guys really are quite inconsistent with this let the family and physician make decisions and the govt stay out of it

You are gonna have to show your work on this one. I do not believe anyone who is against this nonsense comping out of Arkansas is somehow inconsistent in terms of medical and parental involvement in almost all decisions.

in all of these cases, informed consent is tantamount and I’m not sure how had it is to see that we believe an individuals health care decisions are up to the individual with obvious input from their doctors. Parents too in these cases.

 

[Stealthycat]

so you show that you didn’t read anything anyone posts…. KIDS DO NOT MAKE THIS DECISION BY THEMSELVES OR FLIPPANTLY. THEY MAKE THIS CHIOICE WITH THEI FAMILY AND WITH THEIR PHYSICIAN.

again, this is all about fear Mongering. Plain and simple.

kids are the catalyst are they not ? you're not suggesting parents are coming up with the idea of their child transitioning ?

and kids change their minds, kids are highly influenced, they can be coerced and manipulated, they can chase shiny things, they can be rebellious ............. all that is true isn't it ?

what is being said is, the drugs and surgeries can wait until they're 18 years old

 

[Stealthycat]

You are gonna have to show your work on this one. I do not believe anyone who is against this nonsense comping out of Arkansas is somehow inconsistent in terms of medical and parental involvement in almost all decisions.

in all of these cases, informed consent is tantamount and I’m not sure how had it is to see that we believe an individuals health care decisions are up to the individual with obvious input from their doctors. Parents too in these cases.

if a child wanted plastic surgery to enhance their lips and cheek bones and get breast implants and a nose job at 9-11 years old ... would you call those health care decisions ?

 

[Gatorman]

I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?

do we let parents decide that their kids can acquire illegal drugs? buy a house/get a mortgage? use tobacco/alcohol? marry?

I mean we don't let a lot of things happen in our society regardless of what a kid wants to do, right? because they're kids - that's the ultimate reason - they're not adult enough to make decisions

did you read the Buck Angel article/post I made?

Wow, more silliness from the king of silliness.
1) again, not sure what “illegal drugs” have to do in this case but parents can decide if they will tolerate their children smoking (pot or cigs), driving (since they generally will have to countersign any car loan), and yes, there are states where underage teenagers can marry but it requires parental consent

2) again, we treat kids who have cancer, right? Kids who have depression; diabetes, vision problems on the advice of their doctors and parental consent. The government doesn’t tell me i can’t put a 10 year old in contact lenses even though the risks involved are worse than hormone therapy (which if you spent half as much time reading as you do trolling you’d know is reversible while a bad enough eye infection is not)

 

[moleculo]

I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?

do we let parents decide that their kids can acquire illegal drugs? buy a house/get a mortgage? use tobacco/alcohol? marry?

I mean we don't let a lot of things happen in our society regardless of what a kid wants to do, right? because they're kids - that's the ultimate reason - they're not adult enough to make decisions

did you read the Buck Angel article/post I made?

again - kids aren't making the decision. You are literally saying the state should dictate what kind of decisions parent's can make for their kids (with consultation from their doctors). Big Brother knows best, I suppose.

Yes I read the article. It's not great, but not something the state should regulate.

 

[Gatorman]

You are gonna have to show your work on this one. I do not believe anyone who is against this nonsense comping out of Arkansas is somehow inconsistent in terms of medical and parental involvement in almost all decisions.

in all of these cases, informed consent is tantamount and I’m not sure how had it is to see that we believe an individuals health care decisions are up to the individual with obvious input from their doctors. Parents too in these cases.

if a child wanted plastic surgery to enhance their lips and cheek bones and get breast implants and a nose job at 9-11 years old ... would you call those health care decisions ?

Way to change the game here. Plenty of kids get nose jobs before they turn 18. Not sure the data for the other types of surgery. Also, those are more permanent than hormone therapy and puberty blockers so, you know, apples and oranges.

edit to add: if a child had a breathing issue and needed a nose job are you comfortable with the government saying they can’t have one until they are 18?

 

[Stealthycat]

Wow, more silliness from the king of silliness.
1) again, not sure what “illegal drugs” have to do in this case but parents can decide if they will tolerate their children smoking (pot or cigs), driving (since they generally will have to countersign any car loan), and yes, there are states where underage teenagers can marry but it requires parental consent

Yes you know what examples are - we have many things NOT allowed for children in the USA because kids are not adults. You seem to think an 8-10 year old is capable of making adult decisions - why ?

2) again, we treat kids who have cancer, right? Kids who have depression; diabetes, vision problems on the advice of their doctors and parental consent. The government doesn’t tell me i can’t put a 10 year old in contact lenses even though the risks involved are worse than hormone therapy (which if you spent half as much time reading as you do trolling you’d know is reversible while a bad enough eye infection is not)

again, trans is now a serious medical illness like cancer, that's what you're saying? and we need to cure kids from it ?

and please stop the "trolling" name calling, this is literally an Arkansas Act that's being challenged in courts.

 

[Stealthycat]

again - kids aren't making the decision. You are literally saying the state should dictate what kind of decisions parent's can make for their kids (with consultation from their doctors). Big Brother knows best, I suppose.

Yes I read the article. It's not great, but not something the state should regulate.

you think kids are the victims then since they're not making the decisions ?

the kids are the catalyst in this all, what they say they're feeling/wanting, are they not ?


the Buck Angel article is from a trans, who would know better ?

 

[Gatorman]

Wow, more silliness from the king of silliness.
1) again, not sure what “illegal drugs” have to do in this case but parents can decide if they will tolerate their children smoking (pot or cigs), driving (since they generally will have to countersign any car loan), and yes, there are states where underage teenagers can marry but it requires parental consent

Yes you know what examples are - we have many things NOT allowed for children in the USA because kids are not adults. You seem to think an 8-10 year old is capable of making adult decisions - why ?

2) again, we treat kids who have cancer, right? Kids who have depression; diabetes, vision problems on the advice of their doctors and parental consent. The government doesn’t tell me i can’t put a 10 year old in contact lenses even though the risks involved are worse than hormone therapy (which if you spent half as much time reading as you do trolling you’d know is reversible while a bad enough eye infection is not)

again, trans is now a serious medical illness like cancer, that's what you're saying? and we need to cure kids from it ?

and please stop the "trolling" name calling, this is literally an Arkansas Act that's being challenged in courts.

Shades of grey down? I listed 4 things as examples, you pick one and go with another silly tangent. All of the things I listed the government takes a step back and let’s doctprs, patients, and parents decide. The contact lens example is likely the most apt, but it does exclude the emotional and psychological part of the trans kids journey.


I call it like I see it. You are a troll. You cherry pick your arguments and are not here to be swayed. Troll. You are wrong in this issue but you’ll keep hacking away bc it is more about the fight than admitting you are wrong to agree with this. You likely don’t have kids either. Troll.

 

[Summer Wheat]

They can undo the effects of puberty?

they can completely change their bodies with drugs and surgery into something that doesn't even look like or function like it originally did - change it all except the DNA anymore

but that's exactly the point - you cannot undo the drugs/changing ... don't let kids incapable of making such a decision try and make it

What would concern me the most is that nobody knows the long term ramifications to the body from trying to change a natural biological female into a male, or a male into a female. That is not counting the mental illness and anguish from the people who did it too early without being totally aware.

 

[Stealthycat]

Shades of grey down? I listed 4 things as examples, you pick one and go with another silly tangent. All of the things I listed the government takes a step back and let’s doctprs, patients, and parents decide. The contact lens example is likely the most apt, but it does exclude the emotional and psychological part of the trans kids journey.


I call it like I see it. You are a troll. You cherry pick your arguments and are not here to be swayed. Troll. You are wrong in this issue but you’ll keep hacking away bc it is more about the fight than admitting you are wrong to agree with this. You likely don’t have kids either. Troll.

You're comparing contact lens and cancer to trans and I'm being silly ?

I have a different view than you do and because of that, I'm a troll, I'm intolerant, hateful and wrong?

I'll make you a deal - ask Joe Bryant to meet me for lunch and if he thinks I'm a troll afterwards, I'll sign off and never come back. If he doesn't think I'm a troll, you sign off forever and never come back.

How confident are you?


If the Act is upheld, other states will follow what Arkansas put into motion and will set the stage for how other states and people move on this issue.

 

[Stealthycat]

What would concern me the most is that nobody knows the long term ramifications to the body from trying to change a natural biological female into a male, or a male into a female. That is not counting the mental illness and anguish from the people who did it too early without being totally aware.

if you're an adult, you're taking those chances .......... you're right, nobody knows but if an adult wants to do it, they're free to

but kids are different and that's where Arkansas took a stand

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

if a child wanted plastic surgery to enhance their lips and cheek bones and get breast implants and a nose job at 9-11 years old ... would you call those health care decisions ?

Your arguments would be much more persuasive if they existed in the realm of reality.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Way to change the game here. Plenty of kids get nose jobs before they turn 18. Not sure the data for the other types of surgery. Also, those are more permanent than hormone therapy and puberty blockers so, you know, apples and oranges.

edit to add: if a child had a breathing issue and needed a nose job are you comfortable with the government saying they can’t have one until they are 18?

According to statistics from the American Society of Plastic Surgeons, about 229,000 cosmetic procedures were performed on patients ages 13 to 19 in 2020. That’s roughly 2% of all cosmetic enhancements that year.

Of those procedures, 141,000 were minimally invasive nonsurgical cosmetic procedures, like laser hair removal and Botox injections.

link

 

[Dickies]

unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,

you and I could list dozens of things/views that are different than our own and we'd both agree kids shouldn't be able to do .......... why are those different ?

I reject when a kid makes life changing decisions at 8 years old or 10 years old absolutely yes because they are kids, easily influenced, not mature enough to make life altering decisions

absolutely - its why we don't let kids vote, get married, buy guns, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc etc isn't it ?

I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?

Now do vaccines

There were a lot of crazy parents going against their physicians’ recommendations and refusing to vaccinate their children in the middle of a global pandemic that was killing thousands of people daily.

That’s not a phenomenon that came about due to Covid though. We already had crazies refusing the traditional vaccines everyone had gotten for decades and we are how seeing once eradicated diseases starting to resurface. Irresponsible.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,

you and I could list dozens of things/views that are different than our own and we'd both agree kids shouldn't be able to do .......... why are those different ?

I reject when a kid makes life changing decisions at 8 years old or 10 years old absolutely yes because they are kids, easily influenced, not mature enough to make life altering decisions

absolutely - its why we don't let kids vote, get married, buy guns, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc etc isn't it ?

I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?

Now do vaccines

There were a lot of crazy parents going against their physicians’ recommendations and refusing to vaccinate their children in the middle of a global pandemic that was killing thousands of people daily.

That’s not a phenomenon that came about due to Covid though. We already had crazies refusing the traditional vaccines everyone had gotten for decades and we are how seeing once eradicated diseases starting to resurface. Irresponsible.

No we have people pushing vaccine cards and other nonsense when physicians and families do not recommend the vaccines. Doctor and family decision, right?

 

[supermike80]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

 

[Gatorman]

Shades of grey down? I listed 4 things as examples, you pick one and go with another silly tangent. All of the things I listed the government takes a step back and let’s doctprs, patients, and parents decide. The contact lens example is likely the most apt, but it does exclude the emotional and psychological part of the trans kids journey.


I call it like I see it. You are a troll. You cherry pick your arguments and are not here to be swayed. Troll. You are wrong in this issue but you’ll keep hacking away bc it is more about the fight than admitting you are wrong to agree with this. You likely don’t have kids either. Troll.

You're comparing contact lens and cancer to trans and I'm being silly ?

I have a different view than you do and because of that, I'm a troll, I'm intolerant, hateful and wrong?

I'll make you a deal - ask Joe Bryant to meet me for lunch and if he thinks I'm a troll afterwards, I'll sign off and never come back. If he doesn't think I'm a troll, you sign off forever and never come back.

How confident are you?


If the Act is upheld, other states will follow what Arkansas put into motion and will set the stage for how other states and people move on this issue.

way to continue to not actually answer anything. I'll do this slowly: There are many things that the government does not get involved in that can potentially be more harmful than what the Arkansas bill is going after:

Cancer treatments: government does not get involved in the care plan that doctors prescribe for their patients (minors or adults)
Contact lenses: government does not get involved in the care plan that doctors prescribe for their patients (minors or adults)
Diabetic care: government does not get involved in the care plan that doctors prescribe for their patients (minors or adults)
and on and on and on.
ADD/ Anxiety/Depression: government does not get involved in the care plan that doctors prescribe for their patients (minors or adults)
Human Growth Hormone for kids: government does not get involved in the care plan that doctors prescribe for their patients

Most of these things are potentially more dangerous and affect more people than what you are talking about, and government does not interfere. So again, it is a silly argument that takes away from the fact that the right is really doing nothing to combat the issues of the day, they are just creating fake outrage issues to bait and switch the argument. FEARMONGERING.

Again: if a child had a breathing issue and needed a nose job are you comfortable with the government saying they can’t have one until they are 18?

Gator

PS. I've met Joe many times, and he sees the good in people almost to a fault, especially if they are customers. Doesn't mean you aren't trolling, but thanks for trying to change the subject (again). It is always your "way" of being relevant.

 

[Gatorman]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

sounds like you really haven't looked into it any further than a headline then. I am also skeptical, but I decided to read and listen a little more to this and once you get beyond the headlines, it makes a whole lot more sense. Again, I'd challenge you to watch the John Oliver segment I posted above. It will enlighten you, even if it does not change your mind.

 

[supermike80]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

sounds like you really haven't looked into it any further than a headline then. I am also skeptical, but I decided to read and listen a little more to this and once you get beyond the headlines, it makes a whole lot more sense. Again, I'd challenge you to watch the John Oliver segment I posted above. It will enlighten you, even if it does not change your mind.

Nah. I've looked past the headlines, but thanks for making drive by assumptions. I don't need to watch John Oliver or anyone. I will never, and I mean EVER believe this is a good decision for children. Ever. And that's my opinion. And I'm entitled to it just as you are to yours. Difference is I am not challenging your opinion here, you have it, roll with it. I won't take that step.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

Agree that "conversion therapy" to try to change how a child identifies themself should be off the table.

 

[supermike80]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

Agree that "conversion therapy" to try to change how a child identifies themself should be off the table.

Good we agree. Hands off till 18

 

[Gatorman]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

sounds like you really haven't looked into it any further than a headline then. I am also skeptical, but I decided to read and listen a little more to this and once you get beyond the headlines, it makes a whole lot more sense. Again, I'd challenge you to watch the John Oliver segment I posted above. It will enlighten you, even if it does not change your mind.

Nah. I've looked past the headlines, but thanks for making drive by assumptions. I don't need to watch John Oliver or anyone. I will never, and I mean EVER believe this is a good decision for children. Ever. And that's my opinion. And I'm entitled to it just as you are to yours. Difference is I am not challenging your opinion here, you have it, roll with it. I won't take that step.

Well, the difference here is you (not you specifically but who you vote for) want to impose your decision on everyone else. I, on the other hand, want to give those who wish to make that choice for themselves the right to do so, just like abortion, just like whatever else. In the case of abortion, I can understand why the right takes up that fight bc the "Unborn" as Stealthycat like to call them do not have a say in the matter. In this case, the child is the one who brings this up, so even though they are young, they do have agency in this process, much like any or all other medical decisions that the right doesn't have a problem with (or that the right cant win any votes by curtailing).

Therein lies the difference. If you choose to be "libertarian" in your thinking then what someone does that has no effect on you should not be legislated. I'm a liberal, tried and true and believe all of these decisions (including assisted suicide btw) should not be held in the hands of government but in the hands of the individual and their doctor and in the case of minors, their parents.

 

[supermike80]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

sounds like you really haven't looked into it any further than a headline then. I am also skeptical, but I decided to read and listen a little more to this and once you get beyond the headlines, it makes a whole lot more sense. Again, I'd challenge you to watch the John Oliver segment I posted above. It will enlighten you, even if it does not change your mind.

Nah. I've looked past the headlines, but thanks for making drive by assumptions. I don't need to watch John Oliver or anyone. I will never, and I mean EVER believe this is a good decision for children. Ever. And that's my opinion. And I'm entitled to it just as you are to yours. Difference is I am not challenging your opinion here, you have it, roll with it. I won't take that step.

Well, the difference here is you (not you specifically but who you vote for) want to impose your decision on everyone else. I, on the other hand, want to give those who wish to make that choice for themselves the right to do so, just like abortion, just like whatever else. In the case of abortion, I can understand why the right takes up that fight bc the "Unborn" as Stealthycat like to call them do not have a say in the matter. In this case, the child is the one who brings this up, so even though they are young, they do have agency in this process, much like any or all other medical decisions that the right doesn't have a problem with (or that the right cant win any votes by curtailing).

Therein lies the difference. If you choose to be "libertarian" in your thinking then what someone does that has no effect on you should not be legislated. I'm a liberal, tried and true and believe all of these decisions (including assisted suicide btw) should not be held in the hands of government but in the hands of the individual and their doctor and in the case of minors, their parents.

I get your opinion, and you also are trying to impose your decision on someone else. Strange you don't see that. But whatever man. We both have opinons, and we tend to vote for representatives that share those opinions. It's how a democracy works for the most part. Deal with it.

 

[the moops]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

Agree that "conversion therapy" to try to change how a child identifies themself should be off the table.

Good we agree. Hands off till 18

Why 18? Just curious. I mean, 18 is a pretty arbitrary number that we use to vote and join the military, but 18 isn't some magical cutoff

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Why 18?

Because it is too late to undo puberty.

 

[supermike80]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

Agree that "conversion therapy" to try to change how a child identifies themself should be off the table.

Good we agree. Hands off till 18

Why 18? Just curious. I mean, 18 is a pretty arbitrary number that we use to vote and join the military, but 18 isn't some magical cutoff

You're seriously asking that question? Dude....Just stop. Now you're just arguing to be difficult. I don't have time for nonesnse

 

[Ilov80s]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

How many trans people or trans children do you know well and have had personal conversations with?

 

[Ilov80s]

And that goes to almost everyone in this thread. Not sure how anyone can have such firm conviction without reading the research but even more importantly, knowing people living in these situations. Nothing wrong with having a feeling or leaning a certain way but I would hope people would want some first hand knowledge before being so sure of either side.

 

[supermike80]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

How many trans people or trans children do you know well and have had personal conversations with?

Zero.

 

[supermike80]

And that goes to almost everyone in this thread. Not sure how anyone can have such firm conviction without reading the research but even more importantly, knowing people living in these situations. Nothing wrong with having a feeling or leaning a certain way but I would hope people would want some first hand knowledge before being so sure of either side.

Ugh..We are doing this again? We have been down this road. Just because I don't know any trans people does NOT mean I can't have an opinion on the subject. That's just the dumbest argument ever.
I don't know anyone that is in a verbally abusive relationship either. Are you saying I can't have an opinion on that either? Ugh..I hate these arguments.

 

[Stealthycat]

unwillingness to accept views, beliefs, or behavior that differ from one's own:

You reject that the trans child's views and beliefs on who they are that leads to their behavior is likely valid for no other reason that they are less than eighteen,

you and I could list dozens of things/views that are different than our own and we'd both agree kids shouldn't be able to do .......... why are those different ?

I reject when a kid makes life changing decisions at 8 years old or 10 years old absolutely yes because they are kids, easily influenced, not mature enough to make life altering decisions

absolutely - its why we don't let kids vote, get married, buy guns, tobacco, alcohol, drugs, etc etc isn't it ?

I don't think anyone is arguing for letting 8 year old kids permanently choose their own gender.

However, why should parents be prevented from deciding what's best with their kids, with consultation from their doctors?

Now do vaccines

There were a lot of crazy parents going against their physicians’ recommendations and refusing to vaccinate their children in the middle of a global pandemic that was killing thousands of people daily.

That’s not a phenomenon that came about due to Covid though. We already had crazies refusing the traditional vaccines everyone had gotten for decades and we are how seeing once eradicated diseases starting to resurface. Irresponsible.

FYI covid vaccines didn't stop you from getting covid, spreading covid or contributing to the pandemic

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

And that goes to almost everyone in this thread. Not sure how anyone can have such firm conviction without reading the research but even more importantly, knowing people living in these situations. Nothing wrong with having a feeling or leaning a certain way but I would hope people would want some first hand knowledge before being so sure of either side.

Ugh..We are doing this again? We have been down this road. Just because I don't know any trans people does NOT mean I can't have an opinion on the subject. That's just the dumbest argument ever.
I don't know anyone that is in a verbally abusive relationship either. Are you saying I can't have an opinion on that either? Ugh..I hate these arguments.

Since your opinion goes against what those with actual experience conclude, goes against the consensus medical opinion across numerous specialties, goes against the admittedly sparse, but available statistics, based on those statistics harms directly and indirectly far more children than it protects can I ask what exactly is the basis of this opinion?

 

[Stealthycat]

way to continue to not actually answer anything. I'll do this slowly: There are many things that the government does not get involved in that can potentially be more harmful than what the Arkansas bill is going after:

Cancer treatments: government does not get involved in the care plan that doctors prescribe for their patients (minors or adults)
Contact lenses: government does not get involved in the care plan that doctors prescribe for their patients (minors or adults)
Diabetic care: government does not get involved in the care plan that doctors prescribe for their patients (minors or adults)
and on and on and on.
ADD/ Anxiety/Depression: government does not get involved in the care plan that doctors prescribe for their patients (minors or adults)
Human Growth Hormone for kids: government does not get involved in the care plan that doctors prescribe for their patients

cancer = disease
contact lenses = not harmful in any way
diabetes = disease
ADD/Anxiety/Depression = mental issues

HGH .......... first google hit

What happens if you give HGH to a child?
“Administering growth hormone treatment may help very short children gain a few inches in height, but it also exposes them to a powerful hormone when we do not fully know the long-term implications,” said co-author Chris Feudtner, MD, PhD, a CHOP pediatrician and director of the Hospital's Department of Medical Ethics.Jan 25, 2017


HGH is given to kids who have growth issues, right ?

None of these examples you give are apples to apples UNLESS you're calling transphoria a disease or a mental disorder ?

Most of these things are potentially more dangerous and affect more people than what you are talking about, and government does not interfere. So again, it is a silly argument that takes away from the fact that the right is really doing nothing to combat the issues of the day, they are just creating fake outrage issues to bait and switch the argument. FEARMONGERING.

Again: if a child had a breathing issue and needed a nose job are you comfortable with the government saying they can’t have one until they are 18?

Gator

PS. I've met Joe many times, and he sees the good in people almost to a fault, especially if they are customers. Doesn't mean you aren't trolling, but thanks for trying to change the subject (again). It is always your "way" of being relevant.

the example on a nose job or HGH .... those we could use in relation to trans

the 11 year old skinny girl with brown hair and brown eyes who feels like she needs blue eyes, blond hair and a woman's body ... you'd be ok with her and her family and physicians doing breast implants, nose jobs, cheeks, botox, lips, changing her eye and hair color ........... because she feels like that's what she wants ?

I'm not sure they're illegal but is it something everyone thinks is ok and normal and no issues ?


I noticed you don't want to bet on who I am ........ smart. Now, stop name calling please ... it makes you look really bad

 

[Gatorman]

Argue all day man..Never changing my mind. ANY kind of gender modifications to any child under 18 is wrong in my opinion. Plain and simple.

sounds like you really haven't looked into it any further than a headline then. I am also skeptical, but I decided to read and listen a little more to this and once you get beyond the headlines, it makes a whole lot more sense. Again, I'd challenge you to watch the John Oliver segment I posted above. It will enlighten you, even if it does not change your mind.

Nah. I've looked past the headlines, but thanks for making drive by assumptions. I don't need to watch John Oliver or anyone. I will never, and I mean EVER believe this is a good decision for children. Ever. And that's my opinion. And I'm entitled to it just as you are to yours. Difference is I am not challenging your opinion here, you have it, roll with it. I won't take that step.

Well, the difference here is you (not you specifically but who you vote for) want to impose your decision on everyone else. I, on the other hand, want to give those who wish to make that choice for themselves the right to do so, just like abortion, just like whatever else. In the case of abortion, I can understand why the right takes up that fight bc the "Unborn" as Stealthycat like to call them do not have a say in the matter. In this case, the child is the one who brings this up, so even though they are young, they do have agency in this process, much like any or all other medical decisions that the right doesn't have a problem with (or that the right cant win any votes by curtailing).

Therein lies the difference. If you choose to be "libertarian" in your thinking then what someone does that has no effect on you should not be legislated. I'm a liberal, tried and true and believe all of these decisions (including assisted suicide btw) should not be held in the hands of government but in the hands of the individual and their doctor and in the case of minors, their parents.

I get your opinion, and you also are trying to impose your decision on someone else. Strange you don't see that. But whatever man. We both have opinons, and we tend to vote for representatives that share those opinions. It's how a democracy works for the most part. Deal with it.

How am I "imposing" anything? I guess you feel I am "imposing" people to have to allow this, but again, I am neither forcing someone to do or not do something. I am allowing them to do what they believe is in their best interests. Who exactly am I "imposing" anything on?

 

[Stealthycat]

Well, the difference here is you (not you specifically but who you vote for) want to impose your decision on everyone else. I, on the other hand, want to give those who wish to make that choice for themselves the right to do so, just like abortion, just like whatever else. In the case of abortion, I can understand why the right takes up that fight bc the "Unborn" as Stealthycat like to call them do not have a say in the matter. In this case, the child is the one who brings this up, so even though they are young, they do have agency in this process, much like any or all other medical decisions that the right doesn't have a problem with (or that the right cant win any votes by curtailing).

Therein lies the difference. If you choose to be "libertarian" in your thinking then what someone does that has no effect on you should not be legislated. I'm a liberal, tried and true and believe all of these decisions (including assisted suicide btw) should not be held in the hands of government but in the hands of the individual and their doctor and in the case of minors, their parents.

children aren't capable of making their own medical decisions - can we agree on that ?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

How am I "imposing" anything? I guess you feel I am "imposing" people to have to allow this, but again, I am neither forcing someone to do or not do something. I am allowing them to do what they believe is in their best interests. Who exactly am I "imposing" anything on?

Your imposing allowing change in a change averse society.

 

[Stealthycat]

Why 18? Just curious. I mean, 18 is a pretty arbitrary number that we use to vote and join the military, but 18 isn't some magical cutoff

society has deems 18 as adult and has for a long time .............. do you disagree ?

 

[supermike80]

And that goes to almost everyone in this thread. Not sure how anyone can have such firm conviction without reading the research but even more importantly, knowing people living in these situations. Nothing wrong with having a feeling or leaning a certain way but I would hope people would want some first hand knowledge before being so sure of either side.

Ugh..We are doing this again? We have been down this road. Just because I don't know any trans people does NOT mean I can't have an opinion on the subject. That's just the dumbest argument ever.
I don't know anyone that is in a verbally abusive relationship either. Are you saying I can't have an opinion on that either? Ugh..I hate these arguments.

Since your opinion goes against what those with actual experience conclude, goes against the consensus medical opinion across numerous specialties, goes against the admittedly sparse, but available statistics, based on those statistics harms directly and indirectly far more children than it protects can I ask what exactly is the basis of this opinion?

I can guarantee I can find doctors who agree with my opinion.

 

[Gatorman]

the example on a nose job or HGH .... those we could use in relation to trans

the 11 year old skinny girl with brown hair and brown eyes who feels like she needs blue eyes, blond hair and a woman's body ... you'd be ok with her and her family and physicians doing breast implants, nose jobs, cheeks, botox, lips, changing her eye and hair color ........... because she feels like that's what she wants ?

I'm not sure they're illegal but is it something everyone thinks is ok and normal and no issues ?

Again, silly argument, and I see you always going to an 11 year old. Again, if a child has a breathing issue and needs a nose job would you allow the government to say no to it? Kids dye their hair all the time BTW and it is about as dangerous as puberty restrictive meds. You wish to take this to an extreme, but this is not "extreme"

If there was such a child who wanted all of the above and her parents were cool with that and they were somehow able to find a physician willing to do all that (and risk his medical licence in the process) I'd have an issue with that the same way I do with anyone who does all that to their body at any age; HOWEVER: this is in no way the same as a child who has issues about their gender identity, brings that to their parents who (and again, likely proving you don't have kids) after assessing their child (who they have known since, well, birth) and a physician decide this is what is best for the child then going on with a REVERSIBLE treatment (not surgery) proceed that was then no, I have no issue with it.

This is similar to your abortion argument: you make it seem like this is just something someone dreams up bc it is a Fad or convenient for them while ignoring in most cases there is a lot more emotional involvement that just "I want it". Its not a stuffed Pony, its a medical decision and the stakeholders involved are treating it that way, but somehow you do not believe they are using sound judgement. Somehow, yours is better, even though you have absolutely no dog in the fight.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

children aren't capable of making their own medical decisions - can we agree on that ?

As the sibling of a sister that died at 10 from what was then a childhood disease (Cystic Fibrosis), I cannot agree that children of 8, 9, 10 cannot fully understand the conversations and thus the consequences involved in making such decisions. Children that have normal childhoods with nothing ripping them apart going on are generally not, but children ("painting with a big brush") that do are forced to be able to join such conversations.