Assani's Poker Thread (2 Viewers)

[Assani Fisher]

btw I never even knew you could "like" someone's posts on FBGs before...I've gotten way more likes from these recent weed posts I've made than from my entire history of posting here previously, lol

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

It doesn't make you a better player but when somebody says "puppies feet" you start laughing uncontrollably

 

[Limp Ditka]

btw I never even knew you could "like" someone's posts on FBGs before...I've gotten way more likes from these recent weed posts I've made than from my entire history of posting here previously, lol

relatively new. Last 6 months or so maybe.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Otis,

You may or may not be correct about weed being able to help Assani Fisher at poker. I think its an interesting topic, and I'm going to explore it more in future discussions/posts in this thread. However, I can tell you 100% confidently that you are wrong in your assessment of my views on weed. If anything, at least believe me on this please. I assure you that I have gone to great lengths to see this issue for what it is- If I'm wrong, its 100% due to an error in judging cause/effect and has nothing to do with "convincing myself" like you have been saying. I'm very very very good at being able to objectively view things relating to gambling, and I do not fall into these types of mistakes of "convincing myself" that something pleasurable is necessarily beneficial.

So I'm no longer going to discuss the "Is Assani just fooling himself?" topic...to me, thats just not interesting- I know I don't do it, as I've worked for a very long time to be good at not doing that. But fully understanding cause/effect can be tough, and its possible that my starting to smoke weed just coincided with my natural aging process and that aging process is what produced so many positive changes in my personality/ego/sense of responsibility/objectiveness. So I will definitely explore the weed issue further....

I am not sure about all the hub-bub about smoking. Most people who smoke react into 1 of 2 categories-

1) hyper visually aware and externally focused- time slows down: great for poker)

2) become internally focused and mis much of the external world (not good at all for poker)

Post like this are exactly what I'm talking about- I'm interested in discussing things like this, where we actually talk about the experience and try to discern what is truly happening as our brains interact with this plant.

RFW, I actually benefit most from smoking away from the tables. In fact if I were to rank the ways weed helps me I'd go:

1. It helps me prepare emotionally BEFORE playing. Most days, my morning goes: Wake up between 6:00-7:00AM, coffee and one bowl of weed as soon as I wake, surf internet for 30 minutes to an hour(but somedays I'll get caught up and end up spending 2-3 hours on something), smoke again, yoga/stretching/foam rolling, intense workout, meditation where I focus on goals for the day and mindset I want to carry with me, shower, go play poker around noon-1:00pm.

2. It helps me analyze hands AFTER playing. I smoke lots before bed(I have major sleep issues and weed is a WONDER DRUG for this specifically), and I don't limit my dosages late at night. So this is why I get really stoned and get some truly different perspectives on things....allows me to consider non-standard lines in poker hands much better than when sober.

3. Smoking during play, as you talk about in your post. For me this is the least beneficial of the 3, and I agree with you that it can be a mixed bag. I definitely notice your #2 happening to me at times when I smoke too much in the middle of a session(if it does happen, I'll usually just walk around casino for 10-20 minutes and it'll wear off a bit). And I actually don't even notice a ton of the benefits from your point #1. I would say that the only benefit of me smoking while playing has to do with my ADD and affecting my enjoyment(which I do think can affect your play). One specific example I can think of where weed definitely helped me was at the Hard Rock WPT $10K Main Event in 2012. The best way I can explain it is that I was just "going through the motions" for the first levels of the tournament- I was kinda bored, not really enjoying myself, thinking of it as "just another day of work", and as a result I was only playing my "A-" game. Then my buddy Chewy asked me to smoke during break, and when I got back my mindset had just done a complete 180. I just looked around and thought "This actually is an awesome job- I'm playing a tournament in which 1st place if over $1 million, I'm playing a game for a living, I'm surrounded by beautiful girls(Royal Flush Girls walking around)....lets just enjoy myself and play my A+ game." And I was able to do just that. The sudden change in my mindset was hugely apparent to me, and it was 100% from my brain's interaction with weed.

 

[Assani Fisher]

This discussion is really interesting and I appreciate AF going to great lengths to explain his position.

I think both have a valid argument. It's not unrealistic that weed could help your brain explore deeper scenarios which a sober mind wouldn't necessarily think of. On the flip side I'm curious what impact an impaired short term memory would have on a player. That is obviously a major component of the game. I definitely agree weed affects people in different ways, but memory loss is pretty universal amongst users isn't it?

I can only speak for myself....

I kinda suck at remembering stuff from years ago. For example not only do I not remember owing FUJB $300 from a strip club, but I probably wouldn't even recognize him if I saw him(nothing at all personal, just my memory).

But if you tested my short term memory(just memorizing a string of numbers) I'd bet I'd be in the top 5%(even after smoking).

I'm with Otis here. I don't know if weed makes you a worse player but I feel confident saying it doesn't make you better.

I understand why you would think that weed might not help YOU. I also understand why you would think weed might not help THE MAJORITY. But why do you think you know if weed helps ME?

The entire existence of our species today is based upon small genetic mutations occurring, some of those mutations being more beneficial for producing offspring, and evolution doing its work. So if these genetic mutations and differences are clearly prevalent then why do you dismiss the possibility that weed helps me even though it may not help the majority?

FWIW I have fairly major ADD and fairly minor turrets syndrome. I also have major sleep issues(before I started smoking weed, I would usually sleep 6 times per week instead of 7....I would work on a ~28 hour/day instead of a 24 hour day, so I would just go to bed 4 hours later each night until I had skipped an entire night of sleep by the end of the week). I've found weed to be hugely helpful for all of these.....surely you must acknowledge that this makes weed's effects on me somewhat different than weed's effects on someone who doesn't have ADD/turrets/sleep disorders?

Then again, I think it's odd that a person who does this for a true profession doesn't keep accurate records not just of winnings but of every lesson learned at every session. It's a job. And treating it like one will lead to better results.

1. My records are more accurate than you might think. I'm always intentionally vague. Moreover, I know the important stuff(i.e. "Do I still have a positive winrate in this game I've been playing lately?" or "How much will you have to pay in taxes for a certain year?"), whereas I might not know the random questions you ask(i.e. something very specific like "Are you above break even over the last 12 months?"). In my 2p2 staking thread I listed detailed reports of my online history on pokerstars: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/163/staking-selling-shares-online/assani-fisher-scoop-high-package-omaha-hi-lo-sunday-nlhes-1331542/

2. I mostly play online....I do indeed have all records of that, as PokerStars can always give you HHs and I import them into PokerTracker.

3. I also can find out my tournament results, as WSOP/WPT keep track.

4. Many online players who sometimes play live won't keep great live results. Thats because: 1. They're playing in games that are so soft that I don't have to worry about whether or not they are profitable and 2. Some poker players opt to not pay taxes on money that doesn't touch their bank account(i.e. live winnings) and therefore don't need to track it exactly

I don't mean to criticize and didn't think I had. I was just saying I didn't happen to think that weed would make a person a better player.

To clarify, I didn't mind your posts at all....I absolutely don't mind criticism/feedback; I only mind people giving me criticism/feedback and then sticking their head in the sand and not listening to my actual response. I love having discussions where both sides are truly open-minded to the possibility that they are wrong.

In other words, posts like this one from Otis:

In next week's series we'll discuss whether Cindy Crawford is considered attractive, whether grass is green, and whether drinking alcohol can get you drunk. Stay tuned!

are the only thing I really don't like about our recent discussions. Its just a waste of our time- Otis isn't actually discussing things with me, hes just telling me how hes 100% right and there doesn't even need to be a debate about it. To me, I'd rather not have THIS TYPE of debate in my thread- its fruitless.

 

[Assani Fisher]

I remember when my stoner friends convinced themselves that weed helped them study better in high school / college. Now they're convinced that it helps them make better fries.

"Weed is a tool, like a hammer. You can build a house with a hammer or you can hit yourself in the nuts with it....just because some people choose the latter doesn't mean we should ban hammers." -Joe Rogan

“Taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life. LSD shows you that there’s another side to the coin, and you can’t remember it when it wears off, but you know it. It reinforced my sense of what was important—creating great things instead of making money, putting things back into the stream of history and of human consciousness as much as I could.” - Steve Jobs

"The illegality of cannabis is outrageous, an impediment to full utilization of a drug which helps produce the serenity and insight, sensitivity and fellowship so desperately needed in this increasingly mad and dangerous world." - Carl Sagan

"There is a myth about such highs: the user has an illusion of great insight, but it does not survive scrutiny in the morning. I am convinced that this is an error, and that the devastating insights achieved when high are real insights; the main problem is putting these insights in a form acceptable to the quite different self that we are when we're down the next day. Some of the hardest work I've ever done has been to put such insights down on tape or in writing. The problem is that ten even more interesting ideas or images have to be lost in the effort of recording one. It is easy to understand why someone might think it's a waste of effort going to all that trouble to set the thought down, a kind of intrusion of the Protestant Ethic. But since I live almost all my life down I've made the effort - successfully, I think. Incidentally, I find that reasonably good insights can be remembered the next day, but only if some effort has been made to set them down another way. If I write the insight down or tell it to someone, then I can remember it with no assistance the following morning; but if I merely say to myself that I must make an effort to remember, I never do." - Carl Sagan

As I said earlier, it affects people differently....I don't doubt that some of your pot-head high school buddies grew up to be losers. But you're just wrong if you're saying that there aren't very smart and hard working people who have been very successful while using weed.

Out of curiosity, do Otis and others arguing his side also believe that Joe Rogan, Carl Sagan, and Steve Jobs were making similar "convincing yourself that something is beneficial just because you're enjoying it's effects" types of errors when they make these statements? Or is there something unique about my situation in poker that makes it different from them?

FWIW Joe Rogan(UFC commentator, BJJ black belt, very skilled in kickboxing as well) has actually said that he believes marijuana is indeed a performance enhancing drug as it relates to MMA. This discussion came as a result of some fighters getting suspended for weed and having to face a suspension that is the same as steroid users....many thought this was silly, but Joe actually thinks it is an unfair advantage.

edited to add a link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Wg6_Rh8Bs

 

[kutta]

1. Wake up between 6:00-7:00AM, coffee and one bowl of weed as soon as I wake, surf internet for 30 minutes to an hour(but somedays I'll get caught up and end up spending 2-3 hours on something), smoke again, yoga/stretching/foam rolling, intense workout, meditation where I focus on goals for the day and mindset I want to carry with me, shower, go play poker around noon-1:00pm.

2. It helps me analyze hands AFTER playing. I smoke lots before bed(I have major sleep issues and weed is a WONDER DRUG for this specifically), and I don't limit my dosages late at night. So this is why I get really stoned and get some truly different perspectives on things....allows me to consider non-standard lines in poker hands much better than when sober.

I was on the fence on this discussion for awhile (though I do think you have an obligation to tell your backers that you smoke - something I think you have acknowledged). But this doesn't look to me like a, "I'm going to take a hit or two to increase my concentration at the table" type of thing. This looks more like a drug problem. I know you will disagree, but smoking weed three times a day without any limits in the evenings is pretty much the definition of a problem.

Maybe you've done this, but if you are insistent that you don't have a problem, why don't you stop smoking for six months and see how it goes? You are a good enough player where you should be able to still make money without the weed, but at least you would give yourself a break from that stuff and you could really see if you have a problem.

 

[Abraham]

No problem. I enjoy your posts and admire that you get todo this for a living. And I hadn't appreciated the fact that being vague is probably a good idea. I still have a hard time imagining weed would improve play but I admit to being far from the expert on it. Thanks for posting.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

1. Wake up between 6:00-7:00AM, coffee and one bowl of weed as soon as I wake, surf internet for 30 minutes to an hour(but somedays I'll get caught up and end up spending 2-3 hours on something), smoke again, yoga/stretching/foam rolling, intense workout, meditation where I focus on goals for the day and mindset I want to carry with me, shower, go play poker around noon-1:00pm.

2. It helps me analyze hands AFTER playing. I smoke lots before bed(I have major sleep issues and weed is a WONDER DRUG for this specifically), and I don't limit my dosages late at night. So this is why I get really stoned and get some truly different perspectives on things....allows me to consider non-standard lines in poker hands much better than when sober.

I was on the fence on this discussion for awhile (though I do think you have an obligation to tell your backers that you smoke - something I think you have acknowledged). But this doesn't look to me like a, "I'm going to take a hit or two to increase my concentration at the table" type of thing. This looks more like a drug problem. I know you will disagree, but smoking weed three times a day without any limits in the evenings is pretty much the definition of a problem.

Maybe you've done this, but if you are insistent that you don't have a problem, why don't you stop smoking for six months and see how it goes? You are a good enough player where you should be able to still make money without the weed, but at least you would give yourself a break from that stuff and you could really see if you have a problem.

lots of people self-medicate with marijuana. why is it a problem but if they used anti-depressants or other prescription medication, it's not?

 

[Assani Fisher]

1. Wake up between 6:00-7:00AM, coffee and one bowl of weed as soon as I wake, surf internet for 30 minutes to an hour(but somedays I'll get caught up and end up spending 2-3 hours on something), smoke again, yoga/stretching/foam rolling, intense workout, meditation where I focus on goals for the day and mindset I want to carry with me, shower, go play poker around noon-1:00pm.

2. It helps me analyze hands AFTER playing. I smoke lots before bed(I have major sleep issues and weed is a WONDER DRUG for this specifically), and I don't limit my dosages late at night. So this is why I get really stoned and get some truly different perspectives on things....allows me to consider non-standard lines in poker hands much better than when sober.

I was on the fence on this discussion for awhile (though I do think you have an obligation to tell your backers that you smoke - something I think you have acknowledged). But this doesn't look to me like a, "I'm going to take a hit or two to increase my concentration at the table" type of thing. This looks more like a drug problem. I know you will disagree, but smoking weed three times a day without any limits in the evenings is pretty much the definition of a problem.

Maybe you've done this, but if you are insistent that you don't have a problem, why don't you stop smoking for six months and see how it goes? You are a good enough player where you should be able to still make money without the weed, but at least you would give yourself a break from that stuff and you could really see if you have a problem.

I smoke almost every day and have done so for the last few years, and this has caused my tolerance to go way up. But if I stop smoking for a while(even just 2-3 days) then for the first few days back I will be able to get by with much smaller dosages. Basically I smoke up until I feel like I'm in the right state of mind- some days its less than others, some days its more. But the large amount I smoke is solely due to me needing a large amount to feel the effects; Its not about me trying to feel the effects super strongly.

The last time I stopped smoking for over a week was in September-October 2012. I went to Toronto for a month, stayed with my buddy MadDog(Mike Watson, tourney player, you might know him if you follow televised poker). He doesn't smoke and my 2 friends in Toronto who smoke daily were travelling, so I decided to take the entire time off. Right after that I went to Texas to play in some home games, and similarly I didn't know of anyone there that smoked. Looking back, a few observations of that time(about 6 weeks without smoking):

1. I was super focus on getting in shape at the time, and not smoking feels like "cheat mode" for dieting...just so easy to eat perfectly. I wouldn't be surprised if my body fat and weight dipped down to as low as 8%/180lbs during this time.

2. I drank significantly more alcohol than usual...probably drank 10 times in those 6 weeks, with 2 or 3 of the 10 being "heavy" drinking sessions where you're drinking 5+ drinks.

3. I enjoyed socializing much more(and was better at it). Increasing social success is my main reason for enjoying alcohol. As I've gotten older I've tried to observe the ways in which alcohol helps me socialize/pick up girls and build myself into that person when sober. But theres still no denying that when I do drink, it just comes much easier. And weed is the opposite- I can make myself be social when smoking, but if I'm merely reporting the effects of it then it undeniably makes me less likely to enjoy socializing.

4. Got destroyed in poker. Was not staked. Lost A LOT of my own money. The online games on pokerstars at $5/10 and higher have taken such major steps since Black Friday, and I got passed by in quite a few areas. The fact that the competition got so much harder makes it tough to assign any credit/blame on my sobriety from weed. I also played in a ton of the WCOOP tournaments and did not have success(these I still found to be relatively soft- at least to the degree that I felt I was clearly profitable in them. However, variance is absurd in tournaments and losing in them for ~6 weeks is super standard). I did win in the Texas home games, but it wasn't enough to overcome my online losses.

I am not opposed to taking another break from weed in the near future, but I don't feel like doing it right now. I think it'd be much better to do it when I feel like doing it rather than forcing myself to do something that I'm not even sure will help. Whenever I take another break from weed I'll report back in here and let you guys monitor the results.

 

[Assani Fisher]

1. Wake up between 6:00-7:00AM, coffee and one bowl of weed as soon as I wake, surf internet for 30 minutes to an hour(but somedays I'll get caught up and end up spending 2-3 hours on something), smoke again, yoga/stretching/foam rolling, intense workout, meditation where I focus on goals for the day and mindset I want to carry with me, shower, go play poker around noon-1:00pm.

2. It helps me analyze hands AFTER playing. I smoke lots before bed(I have major sleep issues and weed is a WONDER DRUG for this specifically), and I don't limit my dosages late at night. So this is why I get really stoned and get some truly different perspectives on things....allows me to consider non-standard lines in poker hands much better than when sober.

I was on the fence on this discussion for awhile (though I do think you have an obligation to tell your backers that you smoke - something I think you have acknowledged). But this doesn't look to me like a, "I'm going to take a hit or two to increase my concentration at the table" type of thing. This looks more like a drug problem. I know you will disagree, but smoking weed three times a day without any limits in the evenings is pretty much the definition of a problem.

Maybe you've done this, but if you are insistent that you don't have a problem, why don't you stop smoking for six months and see how it goes? You are a good enough player where you should be able to still make money without the weed, but at least you would give yourself a break from that stuff and you could really see if you have a problem.

lots of people self-medicate with marijuana. why is it a problem but if they used anti-depressants or other prescription medication, it's not?

totally agree with Aaron here. Also along those lines, if I lived in California instead of Nevada and had a doctor prescribe me the dosage I'm currently taking, would that change things?

We still view weed as more of a "drug" than a "medicine", and this distinction comes solely from the legality and not at all from actual study of it's effects. And once you study the legal history of weed, you quickly see that its only illegal due to shady legal proceedings heavily influenced by a select few people profiting.

 

[kutta]

1. Wake up between 6:00-7:00AM, coffee and one bowl of weed as soon as I wake, surf internet for 30 minutes to an hour(but somedays I'll get caught up and end up spending 2-3 hours on something), smoke again, yoga/stretching/foam rolling, intense workout, meditation where I focus on goals for the day and mindset I want to carry with me, shower, go play poker around noon-1:00pm.

2. It helps me analyze hands AFTER playing. I smoke lots before bed(I have major sleep issues and weed is a WONDER DRUG for this specifically), and I don't limit my dosages late at night. So this is why I get really stoned and get some truly different perspectives on things....allows me to consider non-standard lines in poker hands much better than when sober.

I was on the fence on this discussion for awhile (though I do think you have an obligation to tell your backers that you smoke - something I think you have acknowledged). But this doesn't look to me like a, "I'm going to take a hit or two to increase my concentration at the table" type of thing. This looks more like a drug problem. I know you will disagree, but smoking weed three times a day without any limits in the evenings is pretty much the definition of a problem.

Maybe you've done this, but if you are insistent that you don't have a problem, why don't you stop smoking for six months and see how it goes? You are a good enough player where you should be able to still make money without the weed, but at least you would give yourself a break from that stuff and you could really see if you have a problem.

lots of people self-medicate with marijuana. why is it a problem but if they used anti-depressants or other prescription medication, it's not?

Lots of people self-medicate with heroin. Why is it a problem but if they used anti-depressants or other prescription medication it's not?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Lots of people self-medicate with heroin. Why is it a problem but if they used anti-depressants or other prescription medication it's not?

how many people die due to marijuana overdose?

how many for heroin?

tough to take anyone seriously after they make this comment.

it's really impressive that you can diagnose Assani as having a drug problem from a few posts on a message board.

 

[Joe T]

I'm pretty sure pilots are allowed to smoke weed in the cockpit before takeoff. Helps with concentration.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

would anyone have a problem if Assani was drinking during the tourney and/or each night before going to sleep?

if you were going to stake him in a tourney, would you also expect him to disclose that ahead of time?

 

[kutta]

Lots of people self-medicate with heroin. Why is it a problem but if they used anti-depressants or other prescription medication it's not?

how many people die due to marijuana overdose?

how many for heroin?

tough to take anyone seriously after they make this comment.

it's really impressive that you can diagnose Assani as having a drug problem from a few posts on a message board.

You are the one who compared an illegal drug to anti-depressants. Tough to take anyone seriously after making that kind of comment either.

 

[kutta]

would anyone have a problem if Assani was drinking during the tourney and/or each night before going to sleep?

if you were going to stake him in a tourney, would you also expect him to disclose that ahead of time?

Of course. Especially if we knew he drank first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and again before bed with no limits.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

You are the one who compared an illegal drug to anti-depressants. Tough to take anyone seriously after making that kind of comment either.

the legality of marijuna in this country is a joke. it's going to be legal soon enough.

it's also been proven to have medicinal benefits, no? what are the medicinal reasons to shoot heroin?

 

[kutta]

You are the one who compared an illegal drug to anti-depressants. Tough to take anyone seriously after making that kind of comment either.

the legality of marijuna in this country is a joke. it's closer to being legal than illegal these days.

it's also been proven to have medicinal benefits, no? what are the medicinal reasons to shoot heroin?

I agree with you. I think it should be legal. But because I (and you) think that, doesn't mean it is "good" for you.

And my understanding is that marijuana is becoming legal for pain management, not as a way to help concentration.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I'm not arguing whether it helps or hurts his play.

I was just disagreeing with the comment that smoking weed to help him sleep indicates he has a problem.

 

[commisholio]

I've known a lot of heavy smokers in my day. Many of them could smoke a ton of weed and function just fine. Others would roll around on the floor and giggle uncontrollably. There's a lot we don't know about the interaction between cannabinoids and the other psychoactives in pot and individuals' brain chemistry. I don't have any trouble believing that, for Assani, pot is a net benefit even if it would not be for many or even most other people.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Is it possible to smoke weed all day, lay on the couch, watch tv/surf the internet, and get nothing done? Yes.

Have I done that before? Yes.

Do I do that anymore? Not often, maybe once a month.

Do I smoke a lot? Yes

Do I have good reasons for smoking a lot? I think I do.

Kutta, you were on the fence about this issue, but my answer to the 4th question made you think it might be an addiction/problem for me. My response to you is that I think the 5th question is much more important when determining if something is an addiction.

 

[Assani Fisher]

would anyone have a problem if Assani was drinking during the tourney and/or each night before going to sleep?

if you were going to stake him in a tourney, would you also expect him to disclose that ahead of time?

Of course. Especially if we knew he drank first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and again before bed with no limits.

What if I drank coffee at those same times, would you think I needed to disclose that to my backers? I think weed comes much closer to coffee than alcohol as it relates to the discussion at hand(ability to play poker while using). I think weed is also the safest of the 3(with alcohol being the most dangerous by far). Basically using any type of metric other than legality I find weed resembling coffee much more than alcohol, so I think using coffee is a better analogy.

 

[kutta]

I'm not arguing whether it helps or hurts his play.

I was just disagreeing with the comment that smoking weed to help him sleep indicates he has a problem.

How about if he smokes weed first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and then again in the evening? That means he's pretty much high the majority of his waking hours. Do you think maybe that indicates a problem?

How often would one have to smoke weed for you to acknowledge he might have a problem?.

 

[kutta]

would anyone have a problem if Assani was drinking during the tourney and/or each night before going to sleep?

if you were going to stake him in a tourney, would you also expect him to disclose that ahead of time?

Of course. Especially if we knew he drank first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and again before bed with no limits.

What if I drank coffee at those same times, would you think I needed to disclose that to my backers? I think weed comes much closer to coffee than alcohol as it relates to the discussion at hand(ability to play poker while using). I think weed is also the safest of the 3(with alcohol being the most dangerous by far). Basically using any type of metric other than legality I find weed resembling coffee much more than alcohol, so I think using coffee is a better analogy.

I disagree. If you really think coffee and weed are pretty close, I can see we aren't going to make much progress here.

 

[Johnnymac]

I'm not arguing whether it helps or hurts his play.

I was just disagreeing with the comment that smoking weed to help him sleep indicates he has a problem.

How about if he smokes weed first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and then again in the evening? That means he's pretty much high the majority of his waking hours. Do you think maybe that indicates a problem?

How often would one have to smoke weed for you to acknowledge he might have a problem?.

There are no problems with weed. If it works for him then he should have at it.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

I'm not arguing whether it helps or hurts his play.

I was just disagreeing with the comment that smoking weed to help him sleep indicates he has a problem.

How about if he smokes weed first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and then again in the evening? That means he's pretty much high the majority of his waking hours. Do you think maybe that indicates a problem?

How often would one have to smoke weed for you to acknowledge he might have a problem?.

how can you determine if something is a problem without knowing the impact it has on his daily life?

also I don't believe he indicated how much he smokes. I think it's clear that he would have a better idea of whether he has a problem than any of us would.

 

[E-Z Glider]

I'm not arguing whether it helps or hurts his play.

I was just disagreeing with the comment that smoking weed to help him sleep indicates he has a problem.

How about if he smokes weed first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and then again in the evening? That means he's pretty much high the majority of his waking hours. Do you think maybe that indicates a problem?

How often would one have to smoke weed for you to acknowledge he might have a problem?.

What exactly is this "problem" you're describing? Weed isnt physically addictive, so he's not addicted. He doesnt perform a job that endangers anyone when he's high. He seems happy. He has enough money to support himself without taxpayer aid. What exactly is the problem? That you dont approve of it?

 

[Disco Stu]

1. Wake up between 6:00-7:00AM, coffee and one bowl of weed as soon as I wake, surf internet for 30 minutes to an hour(but somedays I'll get caught up and end up spending 2-3 hours on something), smoke again, yoga/stretching/foam rolling, intense workout, meditation where I focus on goals for the day and mindset I want to carry with me, shower, go play poker around noon-1:00pm.

2. It helps me analyze hands AFTER playing. I smoke lots before bed(I have major sleep issues and weed is a WONDER DRUG for this specifically), and I don't limit my dosages late at night. So this is why I get really stoned and get some truly different perspectives on things....allows me to consider non-standard lines in poker hands much better than when sober.

I was on the fence on this discussion for awhile (though I do think you have an obligation to tell your backers that you smoke - something I think you have acknowledged). But this doesn't look to me like a, "I'm going to take a hit or two to increase my concentration at the table" type of thing. This looks more like a drug problem. I know you will disagree, but smoking weed three times a day without any limits in the evenings is pretty much the definition of a problem.

Maybe you've done this, but if you are insistent that you don't have a problem, why don't you stop smoking for six months and see how it goes? You are a good enough player where you should be able to still make money without the weed, but at least you would give yourself a break from that stuff and you could really see if you have a problem.

lots of people self-medicate with marijuana. why is it a problem but if they used anti-depressants or other prescription medication, it's not?

Lots of people self-medicate with heroin. Why is it a problem but if they used anti-depressants or other prescription medication it's not?

Heroin??

Assani should heed Rob Delaney's warnings imo...

On the final episode of Breaking Bad, Walt does a pot cigarette of weed and his head explodes like a bomb, killing everyone. #420NO

Does marijuana kill all its victims? I’ll answer that with another question: do all shark attack victims die? Don’t roll the dice. #420NO

My coffee & muffin this morning cost $4.20. A somber reminder that thousands of teens will OD & die on pot today. #420NO

As an exercise, throw a trashbag of cantaloupes off a church. That’s what you do to your future every time you do a marijuana. #420NO

Most young men don't even get halfway through doing a marijuana cigarette before a wolf bites off their peanus. #420NO

 

[kutta]

I'm not arguing whether it helps or hurts his play.

I was just disagreeing with the comment that smoking weed to help him sleep indicates he has a problem.

How about if he smokes weed first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and then again in the evening? That means he's pretty much high the majority of his waking hours. Do you think maybe that indicates a problem?

How often would one have to smoke weed for you to acknowledge he might have a problem?.

how can you determine if something is a problem without knowing the impact it has on his daily life?

also I don't believe he indicated how much he smokes. I think it's clear that he would have a better idea of whether he has a problem than any of us would.

Really? You think someone who smokes weed three times a day (at least) is going to admit he has a problem?

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Really? You think someone who smokes weed three times a day (at least) is going to admit he has a problem?

Do you think it's possible for a person who smokes weed 3 times a day to not have a problem?

I don't know him personally so I can't speak to whether it's causing a problem in his life. Based on everything he's shared, it doesn't seem to be a problem. I guess I don't have your powers of perception though.

 

[Assani Fisher]

would anyone have a problem if Assani was drinking during the tourney and/or each night before going to sleep?

if you were going to stake him in a tourney, would you also expect him to disclose that ahead of time?

Of course. Especially if we knew he drank first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and again before bed with no limits.

What if I drank coffee at those same times, would you think I needed to disclose that to my backers? I think weed comes much closer to coffee than alcohol as it relates to the discussion at hand(ability to play poker while using). I think weed is also the safest of the 3(with alcohol being the most dangerous by far). Basically using any type of metric other than legality I find weed resembling coffee much more than alcohol, so I think using coffee is a better analogy.

I disagree. If you really think coffee and weed are pretty close, I can see we aren't going to make much progress here.

Why on earth would you think that? I find that, so long as both sides are open-minded, the people I disagree most with are the ones whose perspective I can benefit the most from trying to understand. Having a strong disagreement with someone and listening to each other's viewpoints is one of the very best ways to make "progress" in your own understanding.

So lets break it down and discuss it! Hopefully we can both learn and benefit....

To begin I think we have to discern what aspects of the drugs/medicines we are comparing. I mean, I assume you would agree with me that in terms of danger to one's health possibly including death it goes:

weed << coffee <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< alcohol

So, you must be speaking of areas other than health risks when you say that you think weed is closer to alcohol than coffee. Why don't you list exactly which areas you are speaking of and we can go from there.

 

[kutta]

Really? You think someone who smokes weed three times a day (at least) is going to admit he has a problem?

Do you think it's possible for a person who smokes weed 3 times a day to not have a problem?

I would say that someone who smokes weed three times a day every day for an extended period of time has a drug problem. Yes.

Please answer my question earlier. How much weed would someone have to smoke for you to consider that they have a problem?

 

[Assani Fisher]

I'm not arguing whether it helps or hurts his play.

I was just disagreeing with the comment that smoking weed to help him sleep indicates he has a problem.

How about if he smokes weed first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and then again in the evening? That means he's pretty much high the majority of his waking hours. Do you think maybe that indicates a problem?

How often would one have to smoke weed for you to acknowledge he might have a problem?.

See post #9524- I believe that you are asking the wrong question. I do not think "how much" can determine whether someone has a problem. I think "why that much" is how you can determine if someone has a problem.

 

[kutta]

would anyone have a problem if Assani was drinking during the tourney and/or each night before going to sleep?

if you were going to stake him in a tourney, would you also expect him to disclose that ahead of time?

Of course. Especially if we knew he drank first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and again before bed with no limits.

What if I drank coffee at those same times, would you think I needed to disclose that to my backers? I think weed comes much closer to coffee than alcohol as it relates to the discussion at hand(ability to play poker while using). I think weed is also the safest of the 3(with alcohol being the most dangerous by far). Basically using any type of metric other than legality I find weed resembling coffee much more than alcohol, so I think using coffee is a better analogy.

I disagree. If you really think coffee and weed are pretty close, I can see we aren't going to make much progress here.

Why on earth would you think that? I find that, so long as both sides are open-minded, the people I disagree most with are the ones whose perspective I can benefit the most from trying to understand. Having a strong disagreement with someone and listening to each other's viewpoints is one of the very best ways to make "progress" in your own understanding.

So lets break it down and discuss it! Hopefully we can both learn and benefit....

To begin I think we have to discern what aspects of the drugs/medicines we are comparing. I mean, I assume you would agree with me that in terms of danger to one's health possibly including death it goes:

weed << coffee <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< alcohol

So, you must be speaking of areas other than health risks when you say that you think weed is closer to alcohol than coffee. Why don't you list exactly which areas you are speaking of and we can go from there.

Let's start somewhere else. How about you list what you believe the dangers of weed are. Because from your posts it is apparent that you are disregarding any and all studies that show that weed negatively affects attention and learning. So you tell me if there is, in your opinion, anything bad about weed.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Really? You think someone who smokes weed three times a day (at least) is going to admit he has a problem?

Do you think it's possible for a person who smokes weed 3 times a day to not have a problem?

I would say that someone who smokes weed three times a day every day for an extended period of time has a drug problem. Yes.

Please answer my question earlier. How much weed would someone have to smoke for you to consider that they have a problem?

the amount isn't the determining factor imo. it's the impact his drug use has on his ability to function in his daily life.

if he's working out every day, happy with his life, and making a good living playing cards while smoking on a regular basis, I don't see evidence of a problem.

I think drugs and alcohol can be useful when used responsibly.

smoking 3 times/day might be way too much for some people and might be just fine for others. it depends on the person and situation.

 

[Assani Fisher]

And again I would like to point out that its not so much that I disagree with those expressing the anti-weed sentiments, its that I disagree with the close-minded approach many of them take to debating the issue. Kutta's "I can see we aren't going to make much progress here" is a perfect example of this....he apporoaches the debate with a mindset of "If someone drastically disagrees with me then they're probably wrong, so we're just not going to make much progress." I think its much more fruitful to approach someone having a drastically different opinion as an opportunity to learn and understand a different perspective.

 

[kutta]

I'm not arguing whether it helps or hurts his play.

I was just disagreeing with the comment that smoking weed to help him sleep indicates he has a problem.

How about if he smokes weed first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and then again in the evening? That means he's pretty much high the majority of his waking hours. Do you think maybe that indicates a problem?

How often would one have to smoke weed for you to acknowledge he might have a problem?.

See post #9524- I believe that you are asking the wrong question. I do not think "how much" can determine whether someone has a problem. I think "why that much" is how you can determine if someone has a problem.

My brother is an alcoholic. He functions extremely well in day to day life. But he is an alcoholic. He drinks a LOT. He has a six pack and a bottle of wine every night. And that's his minimum. Weekends are ridiculous. But you'd never know it if you met him walking down the street. So on the surface, most people would say he doesn't have a problem. He functions fine, he's happy, etc.

Would you say he has a problem? Yes, I understand weed and alcohol are different. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on whether you think my brother has a problem.

And thanks for answering that question but it was aimed at Aaron. I'm curious what his response is.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Really? You think someone who smokes weed three times a day (at least) is going to admit he has a problem?

Do you think it's possible for a person who smokes weed 3 times a day to not have a problem?

I would say that someone who smokes weed three times a day every day for an extended period of time has a drug problem. Yes.

Please answer my question earlier. How much weed would someone have to smoke for you to consider that they have a problem?

I have ADD/turrets/severe sleep disorder....you think that I have a "drug problem" because I take weed for these things?

What if I was autistic and my parent's found that weed helped me function in ways I never could previously(many reported cases of this)....would smoking 3 times a day still be a "drug problem"?

How are you discerning between a "drug problem" and "treating your illnesses with medication"?

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Otis is going to need to start referring to himself occasionally in 3rd person in order to win this debate

 

[Assani Fisher]

I'm not arguing whether it helps or hurts his play.

I was just disagreeing with the comment that smoking weed to help him sleep indicates he has a problem.

How about if he smokes weed first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and then again in the evening? That means he's pretty much high the majority of his waking hours. Do you think maybe that indicates a problem?

How often would one have to smoke weed for you to acknowledge he might have a problem?.

See post #9524- I believe that you are asking the wrong question. I do not think "how much" can determine whether someone has a problem. I think "why that much" is how you can determine if someone has a problem.

My brother is an alcoholic. He functions extremely well in day to day life. But he is an alcoholic. He drinks a LOT. He has a six pack and a bottle of wine every night. And that's his minimum. Weekends are ridiculous. But you'd never know it if you met him walking down the street. So on the surface, most people would say he doesn't have a problem. He functions fine, he's happy, etc.

Would you say he has a problem? Yes, I understand weed and alcohol are different. But I'd like to hear your thoughts on whether you think my brother has a problem.

And thanks for answering that question but it was aimed at Aaron. I'm curious what his response is.

Again, I'll reference post #9524...in order to know if your brother has a problem I would need to hear him(not you) honestly answer question #5. For each time he drinks throughout the day I would like to hear his reasoning. If he has reasons for drinking in the morning such as "I've found that it really helps me meditate and plan out my day" and also has reasons for drinking during the day such as "I have been diagnosed with severe social anxiety disorder, and sometimes in order to better social I'll drink during the day" and also has reasons for drinking at night such as "I have a sleep disorder and alcohol completely cures it" then, based upon his answers to question #5, I would conclude that he does not have a problem.

My best guess is that when I ask your brother question #5 he would either admit that he drinks for bad reasons or his reasons would be so obviously self-deceiving and biased that its clear to me hes just fooling himself. But I would wait to actually hear him out before I jumped to conclusions. You guys have assumed that I'm guilty of the latter(deceiving myself), but you haven't actually listened to my reasons- no matter what I say, you have just dismissed it as someone who is self-deceived.

 

[kutta]

And again I would like to point out that its not so much that I disagree with those expressing the anti-weed sentiments, its that I disagree with the close-minded approach many of them take to debating the issue. Kutta's "I can see we aren't going to make much progress here" is a perfect example of this....he apporoaches the debate with a mindset of "If someone drastically disagrees with me then they're probably wrong, so we're just not going to make much progress." I think its much more fruitful to approach someone having a drastically different opinion as an opportunity to learn and understand a different perspective.

How about you show me some scientific studies that show that coffee has a worse affect on your brain than smoking weed three times a day does (not just some Internet articles, actual scientific studies). You can say anything you want, but it doesn't make it true. I can say that eating ding dongs all day every day is good for me, but that doesn't mean it is.

If you want people to be open minded you are going to have to do better than make random statements and expect us all to just agree with them.

 

[kutta]

Really? You think someone who smokes weed three times a day (at least) is going to admit he has a problem?

Do you think it's possible for a person who smokes weed 3 times a day to not have a problem?

I would say that someone who smokes weed three times a day every day for an extended period of time has a drug problem. Yes.

Please answer my question earlier. How much weed would someone have to smoke for you to consider that they have a problem?

the amount isn't the determining factor imo. it's the impact his drug use has on his ability to function in his daily life.

if he's working out every day, happy with his life, and making a good living playing cards while smoking on a regular basis, I don't see evidence of a problem.

I think drugs and alcohol can be useful when used responsibly.

smoking 3 times/day might be way too much for some people and might be just fine for others. it depends on the person and situation.

Great. We agree on the bold part.

Would you say the same thing about alcohol? Amount doesn't matter as long as they are functioning?

 

[E-Z Glider]

And again I would like to point out that its not so much that I disagree with those expressing the anti-weed sentiments, its that I disagree with the close-minded approach many of them take to debating the issue. Kutta's "I can see we aren't going to make much progress here" is a perfect example of this....he apporoaches the debate with a mindset of "If someone drastically disagrees with me then they're probably wrong, so we're just not going to make much progress." I think its much more fruitful to approach someone having a drastically different opinion as an opportunity to learn and understand a different perspective.

How about you show me some scientific studies that show that coffee has a worse affect on your brain than smoking weed three times a day does (not just some Internet articles, actual scientific studies). You can say anything you want, but it doesn't make it true. I can say that eating ding dongs all day every day is good for me, but that doesn't mean it is.

If you want people to be open minded you are going to have to do better than make random statements and expect us all to just agree with them.

Did you even take 2 seconds to google that? WebMD article - Heavy Marijuana use doesnt damage brain

 

[kutta]

Really? You think someone who smokes weed three times a day (at least) is going to admit he has a problem?

Do you think it's possible for a person who smokes weed 3 times a day to not have a problem?

I would say that someone who smokes weed three times a day every day for an extended period of time has a drug problem. Yes.

Please answer my question earlier. How much weed would someone have to smoke for you to consider that they have a problem?

I have ADD/turrets/severe sleep disorder....you think that I have a "drug problem" because I take weed for these things?

What if I was autistic and my parent's found that weed helped me function in ways I never could previously(many reported cases of this)....would smoking 3 times a day still be a "drug problem"?

How are you discerning between a "drug problem" and "treating your illnesses with medication"?

If an MD diagnosed you with these problems and prescribed certain doses of weed for you to take to help those problems, then fine. I still think it's dangerous, but if you are under the care of an MD I would trust their professional judgement.

 

[Assani Fisher]

would anyone have a problem if Assani was drinking during the tourney and/or each night before going to sleep?

if you were going to stake him in a tourney, would you also expect him to disclose that ahead of time?

Of course. Especially if we knew he drank first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and again before bed with no limits.

What if I drank coffee at those same times, would you think I needed to disclose that to my backers? I think weed comes much closer to coffee than alcohol as it relates to the discussion at hand(ability to play poker while using). I think weed is also the safest of the 3(with alcohol being the most dangerous by far). Basically using any type of metric other than legality I find weed resembling coffee much more than alcohol, so I think using coffee is a better analogy.

I disagree. If you really think coffee and weed are pretty close, I can see we aren't going to make much progress here.

Why on earth would you think that? I find that, so long as both sides are open-minded, the people I disagree most with are the ones whose perspective I can benefit the most from trying to understand. Having a strong disagreement with someone and listening to each other's viewpoints is one of the very best ways to make "progress" in your own understanding.

So lets break it down and discuss it! Hopefully we can both learn and benefit....

To begin I think we have to discern what aspects of the drugs/medicines we are comparing. I mean, I assume you would agree with me that in terms of danger to one's health possibly including death it goes:

weed << coffee <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< alcohol

So, you must be speaking of areas other than health risks when you say that you think weed is closer to alcohol than coffee. Why don't you list exactly which areas you are speaking of and we can go from there.

Let's start somewhere else. How about you list what you believe the dangers of weed are. Because from your posts it is apparent that you are disregarding any and all studies that show that weed negatively affects attention and learning. So you tell me if there is, in your opinion, anything bad about weed.

"Lets start somewhere else"

why not go down both branches of debate at the same time? I'll answer your questions below, but please also answer my question(as well as clarify with whether or not you agree with me on the health danger scale of the 3 drugs).

"How about you list what you believe the dangers of weed are."

For me personally I've found these dangers:

1. Social awkwardness and/or concentrating too much inwardly during social situations. This is by far the biggest negative of weed for me personally.

2. On days where I'm already in a bad mindstate, there is definitely a danger in smoking a ton and having an unproductive day. However, I've also had plenty of times where I've been having a bad day, I smoked, and it changed things....basically I think monitoring dosage at these times is vital, as you can definitely use weed to enhance the depressed mindstate you are already in.

3. Fatigue/tiredness....nothing a cup of coffee won't fix, but I'm definitely a little less alert and chipper right after smoking.

There are also some dangers I've heard many other people mention, but I've never personally experienced:

1. Addiction

2. gateway to harder drugs that are very dangerous

3. Inability to concentrate(this usually happens to casual smokers who get way too high one day)

"Because from your posts it is apparent that you are disregarding any and all studies that show that weed negatively affects attention and learning"

Thats not true at all. In fact I've continuously said that I love having debates like this and I love considering other opinions. The only thing that my posts should've shown you is that I am disregarding engaging in debate with those who are not being open minded and are just telling me how right they are.

Can you answer my question now please?

 

[kutta]

And again I would like to point out that its not so much that I disagree with those expressing the anti-weed sentiments, its that I disagree with the close-minded approach many of them take to debating the issue. Kutta's "I can see we aren't going to make much progress here" is a perfect example of this....he apporoaches the debate with a mindset of "If someone drastically disagrees with me then they're probably wrong, so we're just not going to make much progress." I think its much more fruitful to approach someone having a drastically different opinion as an opportunity to learn and understand a different perspective.

How about you show me some scientific studies that show that coffee has a worse affect on your brain than smoking weed three times a day does (not just some Internet articles, actual scientific studies). You can say anything you want, but it doesn't make it true. I can say that eating ding dongs all day every day is good for me, but that doesn't mean it is.

If you want people to be open minded you are going to have to do better than make random statements and expect us all to just agree with them.

Did you even take 2 seconds to google that? WebMD article - Heavy Marijuana use doesnt damage brain

There's nothing about coffee in that article.

 

[Assani Fisher]

Really? You think someone who smokes weed three times a day (at least) is going to admit he has a problem?

Do you think it's possible for a person who smokes weed 3 times a day to not have a problem?

I would say that someone who smokes weed three times a day every day for an extended period of time has a drug problem. Yes.

Please answer my question earlier. How much weed would someone have to smoke for you to consider that they have a problem?

I have ADD/turrets/severe sleep disorder....you think that I have a "drug problem" because I take weed for these things?

What if I was autistic and my parent's found that weed helped me function in ways I never could previously(many reported cases of this)....would smoking 3 times a day still be a "drug problem"?

How are you discerning between a "drug problem" and "treating your illnesses with medication"?

If an MD diagnosed you with these problems and prescribed certain doses of weed for you to take to help those problems, then fine. I still think it's dangerous, but if you are under the care of an MD I would trust their professional judgement.

I believe you have bought into a lot of media-driven narrative about "trusting your doctor." Heres the conversation that would happen if I walked into a Cali medical office(often times located exactly next door to the weed store!):

Assani: "Hey Doc, I suffer from ADD and I sleep poorly. I've illegally used weed and found it helps me a lot. Can you write me a subscription for it?"

Doctor: "Sure that'll be $100. Have a great day."

This is also exactly what happens when you "Ask your doctor if _________(insert pharmaceutical drug here) is right for you." Doctors are trying to make money. They make money by writing prescriptions and having patients want to come back to them the next time they need a different drug prescription. If you tell a doctor a list of symptoms, he'll prescribe any drug you want that will reasonably treat those symptoms.

 

[Assani Fisher]

And again I would like to point out that its not so much that I disagree with those expressing the anti-weed sentiments, its that I disagree with the close-minded approach many of them take to debating the issue. Kutta's "I can see we aren't going to make much progress here" is a perfect example of this....he apporoaches the debate with a mindset of "If someone drastically disagrees with me then they're probably wrong, so we're just not going to make much progress." I think its much more fruitful to approach someone having a drastically different opinion as an opportunity to learn and understand a different perspective.

How about you show me some scientific studies that show that coffee has a worse affect on your brain than smoking weed three times a day does (not just some Internet articles, actual scientific studies). You can say anything you want, but it doesn't make it true. I can say that eating ding dongs all day every day is good for me, but that doesn't mean it is.

If you want people to be open minded you are going to have to do better than make random statements and expect us all to just agree with them.

Did you even take 2 seconds to google that? WebMD article - Heavy Marijuana use doesnt damage brain

There's nothing about coffee in that article.

You are being intentionally obtuse by responding in this way. While you are technically correct that you asked him to compare coffee vs weed and that article doesn't specifically address coffee, if you were being intellectually honest then you would admit that the study he linked does indeed provide a counter-argument to your overall point. Here I'll break it down:

-Our overall argument was whether weed was closer to coffee or alcohol

-You think its closer to alcohol, and you think its to such a great degree that you said "I can see we aren't going to make much progress here"

-You asked for scientific studies regarding weed's effects, specifically about its effects on the brain. You asked for this because you wanted a scientific answer to our overall argument about weed being closer to coffee or alcohol

-EZ Glider provided a scientific study whose title states "heavy marijuana use doesn't damage the brain."

-Since we know alcohol definitely damages the brain, the body, and your overall health, this would seem to be a good indication that weed falls closer to coffee than alcohol even if the article doesn't specifically mention coffee

-You know all this and are easily smart enough to follow the logical progression I just listed here....but you chose to call him out on a technicality(the article doesn't mention coffee!) instead of trying to have a reasonable debate where you fully consider the evidence he just brought to the table.

 

[kutta]

would anyone have a problem if Assani was drinking during the tourney and/or each night before going to sleep?

if you were going to stake him in a tourney, would you also expect him to disclose that ahead of time?

Of course. Especially if we knew he drank first thing in the morning, again after breakfast, and again before bed with no limits.

What if I drank coffee at those same times, would you think I needed to disclose that to my backers? I think weed comes much closer to coffee than alcohol as it relates to the discussion at hand(ability to play poker while using). I think weed is also the safest of the 3(with alcohol being the most dangerous by far). Basically using any type of metric other than legality I find weed resembling coffee much more than alcohol, so I think using coffee is a better analogy.

I disagree. If you really think coffee and weed are pretty close, I can see we aren't going to make much progress here.

Why on earth would you think that? I find that, so long as both sides are open-minded, the people I disagree most with are the ones whose perspective I can benefit the most from trying to understand. Having a strong disagreement with someone and listening to each other's viewpoints is one of the very best ways to make "progress" in your own understanding.

So lets break it down and discuss it! Hopefully we can both learn and benefit....

To begin I think we have to discern what aspects of the drugs/medicines we are comparing. I mean, I assume you would agree with me that in terms of danger to one's health possibly including death it goes:

weed << coffee <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< alcohol

So, you must be speaking of areas other than health risks when you say that you think weed is closer to alcohol than coffee. Why don't you list exactly which areas you are speaking of and we can go from there.

Let's start somewhere else. How about you list what you believe the dangers of weed are. Because from your posts it is apparent that you are disregarding any and all studies that show that weed negatively affects attention and learning. So you tell me if there is, in your opinion, anything bad about weed.

"Lets start somewhere else"

why not go down both branches of debate at the same time? I'll answer your questions below, but please also answer my question(as well as clarify with whether or not you agree with me on the health danger scale of the 3 drugs).

"How about you list what you believe the dangers of weed are."

For me personally I've found these dangers:

1. Social awkwardness and/or concentrating too much inwardly during social situations. This is by far the biggest negative of weed for me personally.

2. On days where I'm already in a bad mindstate, there is definitely a danger in smoking a ton and having an unproductive day. However, I've also had plenty of times where I've been having a bad day, I smoked, and it changed things....basically I think monitoring dosage at these times is vital, as you can definitely use weed to enhance the depressed mindstate you are already in.

3. Fatigue/tiredness....nothing a cup of coffee won't fix, but I'm definitely a little less alert and chipper right after smoking.

There are also some dangers I've heard many other people mention, but I've never personally experienced:

1. Addiction

2. gateway to harder drugs that are very dangerous

3. Inability to concentrate(this usually happens to casual smokers who get way too high one day)

"Because from your posts it is apparent that you are disregarding any and all studies that show that weed negatively affects attention and learning"

Thats not true at all. In fact I've continuously said that I love having debates like this and I love considering other opinions. The only thing that my posts should've shown you is that I am disregarding engaging in debate with those who are not being open minded and are just telling me how right they are.

Can you answer my question now please?

OK. To answer your earlier question (which I think was you asking me what I thought was worse about weed than coffee), here's a Frontline article that quotes many different sources and discusses many different health risks: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/dope/body/effects.html. How about we start at number 1 since that seems pretty relevant, but we can go on to any one that you want to discuss.

1. Attention, memory and learning are impaired among heavy marijuana users, even after users discontinued its use for at least 24 hours. Heavy marijuana use is associated with residual neuropsychological effects even after a day of supervised abstinence from the drug. Heavy users displayed significantly greater impairment than light users on attention/executive functions, as evidenced particularly by greater preservations on card sorting and reduced learning of word lists. These differences remained after controlling for potential confounding variables, such as estimated levels of premorbid cognitive functioning, and for use of alcohol and other substances in the two groups. However, the question remains open as to whether this impairment is due to a residue of drug in the brain, a withdrawal effect from the drug, or a frank neurotoxic effect of the drug. ("The Residual Cognitive Effects of Heavy Marijuana Use in College Students," Pope, HG Jr., Yurgelun-Todd, D., Biological Psychiatry Laboratory, McLean Hospital, Belmont, MA, JAMA February 21, 1996.)

2. Impaired memory for recent events, difficulty concentrating, dreamlike states, impaired motor coordination, impaired driving and other psychomotor skills, slowed reaction time, impaired goal-directed mental activity, and altered peripheral vision are common associated effects. (Adams and Martin 1996; Fehr and Kalant 1983; Hollister 1988a; Institute of Medicine 1982; Tart 1971)

3. A roadside study of reckless drivers who were not impaired by alcohol, showed that 45% of these drivers tested positive for marijuana. (Dr. Dan Brookoff, published in the New England Journal of Medicine)

4. Marijuana smoking affects the brain and leads to impaired short-term memory, perception, judgment and motor skills. (Marijuana Facts: Parents Need to Know, National Institute on Drug Abuse )

5. In a survey of 150 marijuana using students, 59% surveyed report they sometimes forget what a conversation is about before it has ended. 41% report if they read while stoned they remembered less of what they had read hours later. (Dr. Richard Schwartz, Vienna Pediatric Associates in Psychiatric Annals as reported in NIDA Capsules)

6. Marijuana activates the same pleasure centers in the brain that are targeted by heroin, cocaine and alcohol. (Dr. Gaetano Di Chiara, University of Caligari, Italy)

7. Physiological effects of marijuana include an alteration of heart rate. Use of marijuana may result in intense anxiety, panic attacks or paranoia. (National Institute of Drug Abuse)

8. The daily use of 1 to 3 marijuana joints appears to produce approximately the same lung damage and potential cancer risk as smoking 5 times as many cigarettes. (UCLA) The study results suggest that the way smokers inhale marijuana, in addition to its chemical composition, increases the adverse physical effects. The same lung cancer risks associated with tobacco also apply to marijuana users, even though they smoke far less. (reported in NIDA Capsules)

9. Benzopyrene is the chemical in tobacco that causes lung cancer. An average marijuana cigarette contains nearly 50% more benzopyrene than a tobacco cigarette. An average marijuana cigarette contains 30 nanograms of this carcinogen compared to 21 nanograms in an average tobacco cigarette (Marijuana and Health, National Academy of Sciences, Institute of Medicine Report, 1982) Benzopyrene suppresses a gene that controls growth of cells. When this gene is damaged the body becomes more susceptible to cancer. This gene is related to half of all human cancers and as many as 70% of lung cancers.

10. Marijuana users may have many of the same respiratory problems that tobacco smokers have, such as chronic bronchitis and inflamed sinuses. (Marijuana Facts: Parents Need to Know, National Institute on Drug Abuse )

11. Marijuana smokers, when compared to non marijuana smokers, have more respiratory illness. (Polen et al. 1993).

12. Marijuana smoke produces airway injury, acute and chronic bronchitis, lung inflammation, and decreased pulmonary defenses against infection. Smoking one marijuana cigarette leads to air deposition of four times as much cancer-causing tar as does tobacco smoke (Dr. D. Tashkin, Western Journal of Medicine)

13. Heavy marijuana use can affect hormones in both males and females. Heavy doses of the drugs may delay the onset of puberty in young men. Marijuana also can have adverse effects on sperm production. Among women, regular marijuana use can disrupt the normal monthly menstrual cycle and inhibit the discharge of eggs from the ovaries. (Marijuana Facts: Parents Need to know, National Institute on Drug Abuse)

14. An "amotivational syndrome" can develop in heavy, chronic marijuana users. It is characterized by decreased drive and ambition, shortened attention span, poor judgment, high distractibility, impaired communication skills, and diminished effectiveness in interpersonal situations. (National Institute of Drug Abuse)

15. Adults who smoked marijuana daily believed it helped them function better, improved self-awareness and improved relationships with others. However, researchers found that users were more willing to tolerate problems, suggesting that the drug served as a buffer for those who would rather avoid confronting problems than make changes that might increase their satisfaction with life. The study indicated that these subjects used marijuana to avoid dealing with their difficulties and the avoidance inevitably made their problems worse. Although users believed the drug enhanced understanding of themselves, it actually served as a barrier against self-awareness. (case studies by research team from Center for Psychosocial Studies in New York.)

16. Marijuana and some of its compounds influence the immune system and affect the body's ability to resist viruses, bacteria, fungi and protozoa, and decreases the body's anti tumor activities. Marijuana has the potential to alter the backup safeguards of the immune system because it affects diverse types of cells in the body. This could compromise the immune system's ability to screen out cancer cells and eliminate infection. (Dr. Guy A. Cabral, Professor, Medical College of Virginia, speaking at NlDA's National Conference on Marijuana Use: Prevention, Treatment and Research.)