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At what point do you not start a WR against Champ? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter lawrence phillips
- Start date
Buckeyedawgs
Footballguy
Quinn thru over, under and thru Champ just last week. Enough of this none since. Play your studs!
-OZ-
Footballguy
Link? Or is it insider?
-OZ-
Footballguy
In a redraft, sure. Some of us play in dynasty leagues where we've been lucky enough to have one position strong enough to consider benching a top 12 WR. Some people here actually may bench a top 10 RB in their dynasty leagues. So while most people shouldn't even think about it, the OP's question was
The point would be where you have other, relatively equal, options.
whodeywhodey
Footballguy
Miami DEF > Denver DEFChamp will only cover him part of the game, as has been said.
tommyk7
Footballguy
Never sit a star WR against a good corner. Evans is the best player on the Bills' offense. They are going to try and get him the ball in every way they can.
Yes, Champ is a great "shutdown" corner, makes lots of picks, QBs won't throw his way, etc. But you can be assured that Losman will look to Evans almost 10 times per game. Maybe he only completes 4 of those against Bailey, but if one is for a home-run touchdown, then you're fine.
Remember: Your WR does not lose any points if a throw is intercepted or a pass defensed. The more the Bills struggle against Denver's defense, the more they will have to throw the ball. Evans will get plenty of looks, and opportunities to make plays.
Yes, Champ is a great "shutdown" corner, makes lots of picks, QBs won't throw his way, etc. But you can be assured that Losman will look to Evans almost 10 times per game. Maybe he only completes 4 of those against Bailey, but if one is for a home-run touchdown, then you're fine.
Remember: Your WR does not lose any points if a throw is intercepted or a pass defensed. The more the Bills struggle against Denver's defense, the more they will have to throw the ball. Evans will get plenty of looks, and opportunities to make plays.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
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whodeywhodey
Footballguy
None since! Great!!! I love this nonsense!I mean, this whole post is high comedy, but...the none since part is gold.
Skino
Footballguy
Bailey gave up 4 receptions against him in man-to-man coverage last year and had 10 int. Granted there wasn't as much man coverage in last year's scheme as there will be with Bates, that is pretty impressive in my book. Having said that, Evans is an animal and is going to get his opportunities, against and/or not against Champ. Definately start him.westbrook36 said:
Josh the FunkDOC
Footballguy
I would start Evans, but not be especially happy about it.
Some teams are much better at defending #1 receivers than others, and Denver with Champ is definitely the best. The Raiders were #2 in that area last year, and I don't see why things will be any different. Believe it or not, the Browns are up there when Leigh Bodden is healthy - Chad Johnson has actually said he's one of the toughest corners he's ever faced. San Fran may be a candidate now, as they were decent last year and Buffalo w/ Clements was #3.
All of that said, however, I would only bench the stud if you have another upper-tier receiver against an AWFUL defense; so even in say Chris's case, where he has Santana Moss as a backup, I wouldn't recommend it since Miami's just average. It actually is worth it to bench your stud QB or RB sometimes, because the matchups are HUGE factors for those positions, but for WRs it doesn't matter as much.
So, in conclusion, it's good that you make the effort to think about things like this...but the obvious answer really is the best one in this case.
-Josh
Some teams are much better at defending #1 receivers than others, and Denver with Champ is definitely the best. The Raiders were #2 in that area last year, and I don't see why things will be any different. Believe it or not, the Browns are up there when Leigh Bodden is healthy - Chad Johnson has actually said he's one of the toughest corners he's ever faced. San Fran may be a candidate now, as they were decent last year and Buffalo w/ Clements was #3.
All of that said, however, I would only bench the stud if you have another upper-tier receiver against an AWFUL defense; so even in say Chris's case, where he has Santana Moss as a backup, I wouldn't recommend it since Miami's just average. It actually is worth it to bench your stud QB or RB sometimes, because the matchups are HUGE factors for those positions, but for WRs it doesn't matter as much.
So, in conclusion, it's good that you make the effort to think about things like this...but the obvious answer really is the best one in this case.
-Josh
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notapplicable
Footballguy
You're an idiot.westbrook36 said:
Prodigal19
Footballguy
I wont even respond to westbrook36's idiotic post since it looks like most of you have taken care of that.
As for answering the original question, I think that it completely depends on who you would be putting in for Lee Evans (or whatever stud WR you are thinking about taking out).
If you have good WR depth then I would take the WR out against champ, otherwise I wouldn't.
Champ may be the best WR in the league, but he isnt always covering the #1 WR and he allows some passes himself sometimes.
As for answering the original question, I think that it completely depends on who you would be putting in for Lee Evans (or whatever stud WR you are thinking about taking out).
If you have good WR depth then I would take the WR out against champ, otherwise I wouldn't.
Champ may be the best WR in the league, but he isnt always covering the #1 WR and he allows some passes himself sometimes.
nygiants56
Footballguy
nygiants56
Footballguy
To commish is my wish
Footballguy
Football Outsiders charted all the games, and they say Bailey didn't give up a TD all season.
The MNF crew spouted that stat, and it's one of the most ludicrous stats I've ever heard. Bailey was amazing last year, had one of the greatest seasons (if not THE greatest season) A CB has put up in the entire modern NFL era, and he did it despite pretty much NO passrush and the toughest anti-CB rules in NFL history. Still, no CB in the history of the NFL has started an entire season and only given up 4 receptions. Bailey gave up between 20-30 catches last year (and defensed or intercepted 31).
When you defense more passes than you allow completions, you're a shutdown CB. When you get about 40-50% as many INTs as completions allowed, you're a shutdown CB. When you catch 6 passes inside the 5 yard line and allow 0 completions in the same area (including no TDs on the entire year), then you're a shutdown CB. When you allow 4.7 yards per attempt against the toughest anti-CB rules in NFL history with minimal help from the passrush, you're a shutdown CB. I mean, seriously, what more could Champ Bailey have possibly done last year? What would it have taken for him to be labeled as a shutdown CB from you? Would returning punts and referring to himself in the third person have done it, because it seems to have worked for Deion Sanders...
westbrook36
Footballguy
It is legit. The Eagles used to put up 30 points a game against the Redskins, and Bailey would get beat by James Trash, and Todd Stinkston. The dude is just all hype. He gambles for ints, and if teams would attack him more, Denver's defense would fall apart.oh my god....I don't understand how anyone can think Deangelo Hall is anything but an average to above average corner.
hey moe, i'm far from a broncos fan but there are easy explanations for most of those. the rest are you being a #######. anyone who's watched the game, even without commentators' hype knows that Bailey is superior to any other corner in the game today. Jerry Porter's highlights were in the snow and only shows your ignorance as it was the safeties over the top making the mistakes, which my boy Kerry Collins exposed. not too mention if you'd ever played in the snow you would know what an advantage someone who knows in advance what cut to make has over someone who doesn't.
Chad Johnson is a top 3 receiver in the game and beat Bailey deep twice. One went for a score while the other one to about the 10. however, Bailey picked it off in front of Chad the next play. getting beat by chad johnson deep is something every corner in the game experiences when facing him for 60 minutes.
And T.O. did beat him, HOWEVER, ask anyone or find an injury report for that game because Champ was questionable with a hammy. why else would such an athlete be unable to make a simple cut back one way?
like i previously stated, the rest of those are you reaching for examples when in fact none of them are legit.
Skinsfansince72
Footballguy
Skinsfansince72
Footballguy
Prime Time wasn't "shut down" either. He got burned regularly when he was in Atlanta. He was a great corner but if the term "overrated" still holds meaning, it has to apply to Deion.
-OZ-
Footballguy
AJsee mine.
2 Minute Drill w your mom
Footballguy
You are right. Champ is not a shut down corner. Lee Evans got 5 yards!!I guess he is a shut down corner from a fantasy perspective though because Evans laid an egg today.
2 Minute Drill w your mom
Footballguy
Are you sure about that?There are no "shut down" corners in the NFL.
MogusMaximus
Footballguy
MogusMaximus
Footballguy
Translate: There are no "shut down" corners on my team.Lee Evans vs Denver today: 2 receptions. 5 yards.There are no "shut down" corners in the NFL.
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The Man with the Plan
Footballguy
There comes a time when you just can't deny the evidence. If one of your receivers are starting against the Broncos you have to consider the Champ Bailey factor.
Hipple Long Ware & Peete
Footballguy
Slingblade
Footballguy
He is still right. I don't care who Evans is playing against, you start him.
Slingblade
Footballguy
Hindsight is 20/20.Go ahead and bench him next week then, but don't cry when he goes off for 120/2.Yeah those zero points should help.
Agreed. If Buffalo played Denver again next week, I'd start Lee Evans all over again. Also, I'd bet that a die was not going to come up a 6, even if it had been a 6 three straight times. Just because you didn't get the desired result doesn't mean that you didn't make the smart play.If Losman had thrown that deep ball two steps shorter, Evans would potentially have 70 yards and a score, and we wouldn't be having this discussion.He is still right. I don't care who Evans is playing against, you start him.
The Man with the Plan
Footballguy
He isn't playing against Champ Bailey next week.Hindsight is 20/20.Go ahead and bench him next week then, but don't cry when he goes off for 120/2.Yeah those zero points should help.
Slingblade
Footballguy
No ####?He isn't playing against Champ Bailey next week.Hindsight is 20/20.Go ahead and bench him next week then, but don't cry when he goes off for 120/2.Yeah those zero points should help.
DeadStroke
Footballguy
Shut down corner is an overused term in this league, especially with the additional rules that the CB's are subjected to. But Bailey is a shut down corner and Bly is pretty solid as well, especially if he gets safety help. For anyone that saw the game, did Champ cover Evans for the most part or did they have Bly cover him with safety help? There was mention of Champ going against the #2 guy and letting Bly cover the #1 guy with help. I'll be curious to see how the Denver secondary does against other receivers, but overall, they won't be good plays, especially if you have a decent option. They are playing Oakland next week and although I don't have Ronald Curry or Jerry Porter, I wouldn't be starting them.
twitch
Footballguy
man, I couldnt have been more wrong about Evans today. I didnt have him on any teams, but I certainly thought he'd be able to step up and make some plays. it happens. I didnt see the game, but I have to assume that Bailey was on him, and that Champ is simply the man. shoulda known better. Evans will obviously have far better days.
It's hard to say for sure, because with standard TV camera angles the CBs are outside of the frame for 90% of the play. I saw Bly on Evans a lot, though. Looking through the play-by-play, it's possible that Bly spent all day on Evans. Evans' name crops up 5 times, and on 4 of them, Bly is the listed defender (the fifth has no defender listed, but I saw Champ Bailey and one other Bronco, who I couldn't identify, involved on it). Here's the complete list: 3-24-DEN 44 (10:15) (Shotgun) 7-J.Losman pass short left to 83-L.Evans to DEN 40 for 4 yards (32-D.Bly). WR screen, caught at DEN 42. 1-10-BUF 16 (11:53) 7-J.Losman pass incomplete to 83-L.Evans (32-D.Bly). Receiver and coverage at BUF 21, ball thrown behind receiver. 1-10-DEN 35
13) (Shotgun) 7-J.Losman pass incomplete deep left to 83-L.Evans (32-D.Bly). Receiver and coverage along sideline at goal line. 2-12-DEN 24 (7:13) 7-J.Losman pass short left to 83-L.Evans to DEN 23 for 1 yard (32-D.Bly). Screen, caught at DEN 23. 3-5-BUF 38 (2:43) 7-J.Losman pass incomplete deep right to 83-L.Evans. Overthrown, receiver at DEN 10.And as I said earlier, if that last line doesn't read "Overthrown", you're looking at a 67-yard, 1 TD game from Evans and none of us are having this conversation. The problem with the way most people watch the NFL is that there's only black and white- either a player was shut down, or he wasn't. Sometimes, the difference between a bust and a stud is just a couple of inches. If you play the Denver/Buffalo game 10 times, Evans might break 100 yards receiving 4 of those times, yet just because he didn't do it THIS time, people think that starting him was the wrong move.
Champ wasn't on him, but he's still the man. Champ's presence on the field allowed Denver to roll coverage help Evans' way, which is why Losman didn't try to hit him deep very much. Also, he had a play where he positively ABUSED Buffalo's offense, sniffing out a run almost before the ball was even snapped, completely leaving his receiver (actually tossing him aside like a rag doll), and blowing up Marshawn Lynch in the backfield. He has preternatural skills- most CBs don't have the instincts to know it's a run that quickly, the cajones to simply abandon their WR, or the physical ability to just blow up everyone in between them and the runner.
hoyaparanoia
Footballguy
If any indications are like last season this is exactly what he'll do. On Buffalo's offense, its hard to expect consistency att in my opinion. Evans always has a chance to take it to the house. You'll have to take the good with the bad with Evans, or at least thats how it was last year.Slingblade said:Hindsight is 20/20.Go ahead and bench him next week then, but don't cry when he goes off for 120/2.chris1969 said:Yeah those zero points should help.
Macdaddy_2004
Footballguy
I saw the game - Evans was blanketed on most plays
He had 2 deep balls
On the first deep ball he almost caught it in the endzone 1 on 1 with Dre Bly.
On the 2nd deep ball he beat a double team (not sure who) and Losman overthrew him
He had 2 deep balls
On the first deep ball he almost caught it in the endzone 1 on 1 with Dre Bly.
On the 2nd deep ball he beat a double team (not sure who) and Losman overthrew him
chris1969
Footballguy
I got ya SSOG and agree, I was the one stupid enough to be dissuaded from my gut anyway. But my gut was telling me that this was not gonna be 1 of those 4 times and I should have started Curry. As it is right now I'm the highest scoring team this week and if Heap scores 7 points I'll still lose. Forgive me if I'm a little ticked, but it's more directed at myself than anyone else.
PatytonsGhost
Footballguy
First 2 games last year
Pats 2 25
Fins 2 19
He played against a very good secondary plus hes a slow starter, Someone dropped him last year because of this....
Pats 2 25
Fins 2 19
He played against a very good secondary plus hes a slow starter, Someone dropped him last year because of this....
Skino
Footballguy
Bly was on him all day, mostly with help over the top. On the first deep ball, they got 1-on-1 but the ball was a little behind and Bly was able to defense it perfectly, knocking the ball free of Evans' hands. On the second one, he beat Champ deep, the safety (or nickel back, didn't quite catch who it was) pulled off of Royal when he felt the pass was coming. The play was a 3rd and 5 just before the two minute warning when conventional wisdom says to run it or get a short, sure completion. Champ was up on Evans much closer than they'd been playing the receivers all game, most likely anticipating a short slant or in/out. Kudos to the Bills for the guts to call a play like that and go for the throat. Hindsight says it was a mistake, but 1 yard shorter on that throw and my Broncos would be going home from a disappointing opener for the third straight season.In summary of the passing game, Denver used lots of help over the top on Bly, negating Evans speed, and Champ silenced P. Price all day. Buffalo never seemed to result to a dink and dunk ala New England, which may have done a better job of opening up the the deep play than the rush-play action sequence was.
moleculo
Footballguy
that play was about 2 yards overthrown. if it was 2 yards under thrown, it would have been picked. Losman had to get it out there ahead of the D - he put it where only Evans had a play. To complete the play, the pass had to be 50 yards, +/-1 yard. That's pretty damn tight. Evans was open, but it's not like there was no one around him. Like SSOG said earlier - that's a pretty low-percentage pass - 25% at best? I don't like the call from a bills perspective. If the pass was complete, they win, no doubt. If incomplete, well, we know what happened. I think maybe they were looking for the PI call, but if that were the play Losman should have underthrown it. I think if I wanted to gamble the outcome of the whole game on one play, I'd try to find a play with a higher chance of success.
southeastjerome
Footballguy
Well you are morally correct, as I've changed my user name. Hope this doesn't offend you. As far as the point of the post. Well we all saw what Lee Evans (and the entire bills passing offense) did in week 1. So at least for 1 week, this thread brings up a relevant point despite what HULK might say about this thread being "what's wrong with the shark pool". FWIW, I did start Evans, but I sure wish I started Brandon Marshall instead! Evans poor performance could be chalked up as him being a slow starter or him just having a bad game. We'll see what happens to Ronald Curry and co this week.Lee Evans has become a top tier receiver. The DB lining up against him doesn't deter me from starting him ... if he's on my team, then I probably spent rd. 4 pick on him ... he starts.BTW, nice user name ... a girl beating thug/buffoon/areshole ... how COOL !
Challenge Everything
Footballguy
Where is the update?
