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Backup QB becoming a starter on another team (1 Viewer)

A

AB in DC

Footballguy
There is a lot of good discussion in this thread looking at backup QBs becoming starters for another team, enough that I think it's worth its own thread. There's really very little we can see in Schaub's career that can help us decide where to rank him for 2007 and beyond, but there are many similar moves over the past decade or two to compare to.

Let's list the successful moves and the busts and see if we can find any common threads. For simplicity, I want to limit this to acquisitions, either by trade or FA, made in the past ten years (1997-2006), putting aside guys like Favre, Scott Mitchell, etc.

Here are names mentioned in the Schaub thread:

Jake Delhomme (good move)

Matt Hasselbeck (good/great move)

A.J. Feeley (awful)

Kelly Holcomb (bad)

Rob Johnson (ok)

to which I'll add

Rich Gannon (great)

Anyone else?

 
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Brett Favre

Trent Green

Brad Johnson

EDIT: Jeff Garcia (was good for SF and PHI, bad for DET and CLE), Mark Brunell (was good for JAX, bad for WAS)

 
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Snotbubbles said:
Brett FavreTrent GreenBrad JohnsonEDIT: Jeff Garcia (was good for SF and PHI, bad for DET and CLE), Mark Brunell (was good for JAX, bad for WAS)
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Favre trade was more than ten years ago.Brad Johnson was already a starter for Minnesota before he was traded, so he doesn't count here.Jeff Garcia was never a backup for another team (unless you count CFL), so he doesn't count here either.
 
I posted this in the Schaub thread, but I think it fits in well here as well:

The Hasselbeck situation is NOT comparable.Mike Holmgren saw Hasselbeck first hand in GB as his head coach after drafting him, then brought him to Seattle. Admittedly it's only a year of first hand experience, with a few years mroe analysis, but seeing aguy in my system every day for a year, gives me a pretty good idea of what he can do.I don't care how much recommendation a coach gets, that sort of thing is invaluable.Gibbs' input is very useful, as I'm sure he knows Kubiak's system well, and knows the blocking schemes intimately, but it's not quite the same thing.
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A few more:

Mark Brunell (Pack to Jags) good

Matt Hasselbeck (Pack to 'Hawks) good

Scott Mitchell ('Fins to Lions) Bad

 
Let's get all of Favre's backup's in 1 place. Brunnel, Brooks, Hasselbeck. I BELIEVE Detmer began his career in GB but my memory fades some day. 1 of the best NFL jobs over the past 15 years (give or take).

ETA - looks like T Man beat me to this. Well done sir.

 
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Other possibilities . . .

Anthony Wright

Kelly Holcomb

Tim Rattay

Chris Chandler

Rob Johnson

Steve Beuerlein

Shane Matthews

Kent Graham

Steve Bono

Steve Walsh

 
pacman_fl said:
Let's get all of Favre's backup's in 1 place. Brunnel, Brooks, Hasselbeck. I BELIEVE Detmer began his career in GB but my memory fades some day. 1 of the best NFL jobs over the past 15 years (give or take).ETA - looks like T Man beat me to this. Well done sir.
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We can't forget the legendary Doug Pederson. :yes:
 
stevegamer said:
The Hasselbeck situation is NOT comparable.Mike Holmgren saw Hasselbeck first hand in GB as his head coach after drafting him, then brought him to Seattle. Admittedly it's only a year of first hand experience, with a few years mroe analysis, but seeing aguy in my system every day for a year, gives me a pretty good idea of what he can do.
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It was before the time frame specified in this thread, but Stan Humphries fits into that category as well. Bobby Beathard drafted him in Washington and then traded for him in San Diego.
 
I'm in class now, so maybe someone will do this before I get out. Here's what I'd suggest looking at -- all QBs that meet the following criteria:

1) On team Y, threw at least 10 passes in week 1 OR threw 250+ passes in that year.

2) Year N was his first year with team Y.

3) In his entire career before Year N, the QB had either fewer than 200 pass attempts OR had fewer than 60 pass attempts/year for his career.

Then see how many QBs meet that.

 
Are we just looking @ QBs that were previously a backup, only? If so...

Doug Flutie, BUF - OK

Jon Kitna, DET (prev. starter in Cincy/SEA) OK

Jeff Hostetler, OAK (few starts w/ NYG) ahhh

Kelly Holcomb, BUF (CLE) bust

Ty Detmer, PHI (GBP) Bust (I think someone may have mentioned this already)

Jim Miller, CHI (PIT) Bust

That's a start for me...

 
stevegamer said:
pacman_fl said:
Let's get all of Favre's backup's in 1 place. Brunnel, Brooks, Hasselbeck. I BELIEVE Detmer began his career in GB but my memory fades some day. 1 of the best NFL jobs over the past 15 years (give or take).ETA - looks like T Man beat me to this. Well done sir.
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We can't forget the legendary Doug Pederson. :lmao:
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I would have killed to have his career. Millions to carry a clipboard for 10+ years. He was only there so he could golf with Favre :goodposting:
 
Chase Stuart said:
I'm in class now, so maybe someone will do this before I get out. Here's what I'd suggest looking at -- all QBs that meet the following criteria:1) On team Y, threw at least 10 passes in week 1 OR threw 250+ passes in that year.2) Year N was his first year with team Y.3) In his entire career before Year N, the QB had either fewer than 200 pass attempts OR had fewer than 60 pass attempts/year for his career.Then see how many QBs meet that.
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This proved a little more difficult than I thought, so here's what I did (going from memory, so don't yell too much if I forgot something):All QBs that threw at least 10 games in week 1 of a season from 1995-2005, were not on that team in the previous year, and three less than 500 total passes in the previous three years combined:
Code: 
Doug Pederson	  1999	phi	24Matt Hasselbeck	2001	sea	29Rob Johnson		1998	buf	35Jake Delhomme	  2003	car	86Jay Fiedler		2000	mia	101Rodney Peete	   2002	car	146Frank Reich		1995	car	166A.J. Feeley		2004	mia	168Gus Frerotte	   2005	mia	198Stoney Case		2000	det	225Trent Dilfer	   2005	cle	234Doug Flutie		1998	buf	295Eric Zeier		 1999	tam	318Steve Walsh		1996	ram	381Heath Shuler	   1997	nor	390Elvis Grbac		1997	kan	430
The number on the right is the number of attempts the previous three years.I think all the guys on the list that are good fits have already been named. Rodney Peete had started a ton of games back in Philadelphia, Reich was an 11 year veteran going to an expansion team, Frerotte had an extensive history, Stoney Case was never brought in to save anything, Dilfer had obviously started lots of games, Zeier came in as a backup in week 1, Walsh had a not insignificant stay in NO and wasn't brought in to be the guy, Shuler flamed out in Washington, and Grbac played a bit in SF.
 
Doug Drinen said:
abrecher said:
Just came up with another one:Trent Green (good/great)
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I don't think Green fits the spirit of the question. He was a top 10 fantasy QB on the first team he ever played for.
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You make a good point. I included him because he started 1998 as a backup, only started because of injury, and was considered expendable by the team. So that's a borderline case.
 
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Lots of names outside the ten-year window I wanted to look at. Brunell, Mitchell, Ty Detmer, Chandler, Beuerlein....

I guess we can extend this to the past fifteen years. Any more?

 
IMO, a team signing a backup from another team alone does not make it a vaild comparison. Schaub has had hardly any experience so we need to focus on effectively unproven players. Sure, Bledsoe was a backup in NE and then went to BUF, but I doubt he'd fit the criteria as it was intended here.

 
It's a bit old, but Jeff Hostetler was a backup for the Giants - albeit one with extensive starting experience as such - before starting for the Raiders and Redskins.

 
abrecher said:
Lots of names outside the ten-year window I wanted to look at. Brunell, Mitchell, Ty Detmer, Chandler, Beuerlein....I guess we can extend this to the past fifteen years. Any more?
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As I mentioned, the more we narrow down the criteria to better represent the situation the better the data set will be (although smaller).I will see who I can come up with . . .
 
abrecher said:
Doug Drinen said:
abrecher said:
Rich Gannon (great)
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;) Gannon started 35 games for Minnesota.
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And then was a backup for seven years before Oakland signed him. Not the best comparison to Schaub, obviously, but I think he fits.
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A backup for seven years? What is your timeframe? Gannon only had 5 seasons prior to joining Oakland with less than 200 att. The guy had 11,158 career pass attempts before joining Oakland, yet he qualified but Trent Green does not? This is quite the exact science here.
 
David Yudkin said:
abrecher said:
Lots of names outside the ten-year window I wanted to look at. Brunell, Mitchell, Ty Detmer, Chandler, Beuerlein....I guess we can extend this to the past fifteen years. Any more?
Click to expand...
As I mentioned, the more we narrow down the criteria to better represent the situation the better the data set will be (although smaller).I will see who I can come up with . . .
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I still have a couple teams left to go through, but here are the QB from the past 20 years that picked up a QB that never had a season with 250 passing attempts in a season but at some point ended up with that many or more in a season . . .Chris ChandlerSteve BeuerleinJeff BlakeKent GrahamScott CampbellErik KramerHugh MillenElvis GrbacAnthony WrightScott MitchellDoug FlutieRob JohnsonKelly HolcombFrank ReichJake DelhommeSteve WalshJim MillerDoug PedersonTy DetmerRusty HilgerBrett FavreMarc BrunellMatt HasselbeckSteve BonoJay FiedlerTrent GreenDamon HuardA.J. FeeleyRay LucasStan Humphries
 
Bull Dozier said:
abrecher said:
Doug Drinen said:
abrecher said:
Rich Gannon (great)
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:lmao: Gannon started 35 games for Minnesota.
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And then was a backup for seven years before Oakland signed him. Not the best comparison to Schaub, obviously, but I think he fits.
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A backup for seven years? What is your timeframe? Gannon only had 5 seasons prior to joining Oakland with less than 200 att.
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Sorry, six years as a backup. He had 236 total attempts from 1993-1996. Then he had a little more work in 1997-8 playing behind Elvis Grbac.
The guy had 11,158 career pass attempts before joining Oakland, yet he qualified but Trent Green does not? This is quite the exact science here.
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Try 1,758 pass attempts. For a five-year stretch (1993-7), he averaged about 80 attempts per year. Obviously he became a different kind of QB during that time, which is why I would include him.For what its worth, I would still include Green, too, since there was no consensus that he was a starting-caliber QB when he left Washington. But they're both close calls.
 
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abrecher said:
For what its worth, I would still include Green, too, since there was no consensus that he was a starting-caliber QB when he left Washington. But they're both close calls.
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By the time that Green finished the 1998 season, it was not seriously disputed that he'd either be retained by the Redskins or signed by someone else as UFA to be the starting QB, so I disagree with you there. He was signed by the Rams to be their starter and wasn't only because Rodney Harrison blew out his knee with a low blow in a preseason game, and then Kurt Warner stepped into the spotlight and had one of the all-time great (and surprising) seasons a QB has ever had. The only reason the Redskins didn't retain him to be their starter was that the ownership situation was up in the air and Green didn't want to wait around for it to get sorted out in order for him to get a good contract. The Redskins had to trade for Brad Johnson instead.
 
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abrecher said:
The guy had 11,158 career pass attempts before joining Oakland, yet he qualified but Trent Green does not? This is quite the exact science here.Try 1,758 pass attempts. For a five-year stretch (1993-7), he averaged about 80 attempts per year. Obviously he became a different kind of QB during that time, which is why I would include him.For what its worth, I would still include Green, too, since there was no consensus that he was a starting-caliber QB when he left Washington. But they're both close calls.
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Sorry, I meant 11,158 career passing yards.I don't think he became a different QB, I think he finally found a situation in which someone let him play. Look at his line from '91. In 15 games, he completed 59.6% of his passes, had a 2-1 TD to INT ratio, ran 43 times for 236 yards a 2 TDs. Compare that to his first year in Oakland (59%, 1.7 to 1 ratio, 46 rushes for 298-2) and the only difference is the higher number of passes, and corresponding more yards (and more yards per completion).I'd argue he wasn't different, just in a better system for his tools.
 
If I had to guess who would be the next Matt Schaub, i.e. backup on one team who has not been a regular starter and then becomes the starter on a new team, it would be one of the following, in no particular order:

Charlie Whitehurst - 3rd rounder stuck behind franchise QB in SD, and I could see savvy GM Smith eventually dealing him away in a year or two to start for someone else if there's some buzz about him.

Seneca Wallace - he'll be 27 and in the last year of his contract in 2007, showed good overall skills and athleticism in spot duty in 2006.

Matt Cassel - being backup to Leinart then Brady doesn't mean he has starter talent, but it doesn't mean he doesn't either. Seems to have skills. Let's see how he looks in preseason #2, and if it's good, I could see the Pats getting value for him before contract is up and I could see another team giving him a shot.

I didn't include the following:

Aaron Rodgers - I think he will succeed Favre, not go start for a new team

Andrew Walter - line was bad, true, but he showed no "it" factor at all

Cleo Lemon - purportedly will get a shot in MIA in 2007, but will not get the job.

Derek Anderson - Nobody outside of CLE sees him as possibly worthy of starting for their team

Kellen Clemens - I think he will succeed Pennington, not go start for a new team

David Garrard - he's now 29 and if he was ever to have had a shot somewhere it would have been right now, but no one's knocking down the door to get him

Quinn Gray - almost 28, see Garrard comments. Career backup.

Sage Rosenfels - 29, not happening in HOU, not happening elsewhere

Dan Orlovsky - Martz pet but that's about it

Brooks Bollinger - purported QB competition in MIN is coachspeak. Clearly backup material, no one else would target him

 
redman said:
abrecher said:
For what its worth, I would still include Green, too, since there was no consensus that he was a starting-caliber QB when he left Washington. But they're both close calls.
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By the time that Green finished the 1998 season, it was not seriously disputed that he'd either be retained by the Redskins or signed by someone else as UFA to be the starting QB, so I disagree with you there. He was signed by the Rams to be their starter and wasn't only because Rodney Harrison blew out his knee with a low blow in a preseason game, and then Kurt Warner stepped into the spotlight and had one of the all-time great (and surprising) seasons a QB has ever had. The only reason the Redskins didn't retain him to be their starter was that the ownership situation was up in the air and Green didn't want to wait around for it to get sorted out in order for him to get a good contract. The Redskins had to trade for Brad Johnson instead.
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Let me set the record straight on Trent Green . . . he was a backup FOR YEARS before he ever took a live snap. He was drafted in 1993--by SAN DIEGO . The first snap he took was in 1997 for the Redskins (and he had only 1 passing attempt that year). He evolved as a decent starter in 1998. He CERTAINLY should qualify for this mini study . . . he was a complete nobody when the REDSKINS opted to make him a starter. Everything that happend later on with the Rams and Chiefs was just gravy.
 
David Yudkin said:
Let me set the record straight on Trent Green . . . he was a backup FOR YEARS before he ever took a live snap. He was drafted in 1993--by SAN DIEGO . The first snap he took was in 1997 for the Redskins (and he had only 1 passing attempt that year). He evolved as a decent starter in 1998. He CERTAINLY should qualify for this mini study . . . he was a complete nobody when the REDSKINS opted to make him a starter. Everything that happend later on with the Rams and Chiefs was just gravy.
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:banned: He was not "a backup for years." A backup is a player on an NFL roster. Trent Green spent several years getting cut by teams in various different professional football leagues. The pre-Redskin Trent Green belongs in the Kurt Warner class. Not comparable to Schaub.The post-Redskin Trent Green is vaguely comparable to Drew Brees. Not comparable to Schaub.He was never at any point remotely comparable to Schaub, who has been a second-string quarterback for three solid years now.
 
Doug Drinen said:
David Yudkin said:
Let me set the record straight on Trent Green . . . he was a backup FOR YEARS before he ever took a live snap. He was drafted in 1993--by SAN DIEGO . The first snap he took was in 1997 for the Redskins (and he had only 1 passing attempt that year). He evolved as a decent starter in 1998. He CERTAINLY should qualify for this mini study . . . he was a complete nobody when the REDSKINS opted to make him a starter. Everything that happend later on with the Rams and Chiefs was just gravy.
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:banned: He was not "a backup for years." A backup is a player on an NFL roster. Trent Green spent several years getting cut by teams in various different professional football leagues.

The pre-Redskin Trent Green belongs in the Kurt Warner class. Not comparable to Schaub.

The post-Redskin Trent Green is vaguely comparable to Drew Brees. Not comparable to Schaub.

He was never at any point remotely comparable to Schaub, who has been a second-string quarterback for three solid years now.
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Green was rostered as a third string QB in the NFL off and on throughout his first five seasons and spent some time in the CFL. His NFL.com player page has him rostered for both the Chargers and Redskins from 93-97. Would that not make him a backup? LINKEither way, my point was that Green met the profile of being completely unproven on his original team and then went on to start for another. To the best of my knowledge, Warner was not on an NFL franchise before the Rams. I concur that both Green and Warner had checkered paths on their way to becoming a starter, but IMO the players I listed above were unproven on TEAM A and moved on to TEAM B (sometimes maybe een TEAM C) before they got a chance for a lot more playing time.

 
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David Yudkin said:
Doug Drinen said:
David Yudkin said:
Let me set the record straight on Trent Green . . . he was a backup FOR YEARS before he ever took a live snap. He was drafted in 1993--by SAN DIEGO . The first snap he took was in 1997 for the Redskins (and he had only 1 passing attempt that year). He evolved as a decent starter in 1998. He CERTAINLY should qualify for this mini study . . . he was a complete nobody when the REDSKINS opted to make him a starter. Everything that happend later on with the Rams and Chiefs was just gravy.
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:wall: He was not "a backup for years." A backup is a player on an NFL roster. Trent Green spent several years getting cut by teams in various different professional football leagues.

The pre-Redskin Trent Green belongs in the Kurt Warner class. Not comparable to Schaub.

The post-Redskin Trent Green is vaguely comparable to Drew Brees. Not comparable to Schaub.

He was never at any point remotely comparable to Schaub, who has been a second-string quarterback for three solid years now.
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Green was rostered as a third string QB in the NFL off and on throughout his first five seasons and spent some time in the CFL. His NFL.com player page has him rostered for both the Chargers and Redskins from 93-97. Would that not make him a backup? LINKEither way, my point was that Green met the profile of being completely unproven on his original team and then went on to start for another. To the best of my knowledge, Warner was not on an NFL franchise before the Rams. I concur that both Green and Warner had checkered paths on their way to becoming a starter, but IMO the players I listed above were unproven on TEAM A and moved on to TEAM B (sometimes maybe een TEAM C) before they got a chance for a lot more playing time.
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For whatever reason, I honestly have no recollection of Green going to Washington. Was he proclaimed the starter ala Schaub in Houston?And FWIW, Warner was on the Packers (although it might have only been the practice squad).

 
Couch Potato said:
If I had to guess who would be the next Matt Schaub, i.e. backup on one team who has not been a regular starter and then becomes the starter on a new team, it would be one of the following, in no particular order:Charlie Whitehurst - 3rd rounder stuck behind franchise QB in SD, and I could see savvy GM Smith eventually dealing him away in a year or two to start for someone else if there's some buzz about him.Seneca Wallace - he'll be 27 and in the last year of his contract in 2007, showed good overall skills and athleticism in spot duty in 2006. Matt Cassel - being backup to Leinart then Brady doesn't mean he has starter talent, but it doesn't mean he doesn't either. Seems to have skills. Let's see how he looks in preseason #2, and if it's good, I could see the Pats getting value for him before contract is up and I could see another team giving him a shot.I didn't include the following:Aaron Rodgers - I think he will succeed Favre, not go start for a new teamAndrew Walter - line was bad, true, but he showed no "it" factor at allCleo Lemon - purportedly will get a shot in MIA in 2007, but will not get the job.Derek Anderson - Nobody outside of CLE sees him as possibly worthy of starting for their teamKellen Clemens - I think he will succeed Pennington, not go start for a new teamDavid Garrard - he's now 29 and if he was ever to have had a shot somewhere it would have been right now, but no one's knocking down the door to get himQuinn Gray - almost 28, see Garrard comments. Career backup.Sage Rosenfels - 29, not happening in HOU, not happening elsewhereDan Orlovsky - Martz pet but that's about itBrooks Bollinger - purported QB competition in MIN is coachspeak. Clearly backup material, no one else would target him
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:wall: Nice work, Coach Potato. I think you've pretty much nailed the landscape there.
 
Chase Stuart said:
And FWIW, Warner was on the Packers (although it might have only been the practice squad).
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Warner was never on the Packers roster. The year that he was in their training camp, he was fifth on the depth chart behind Favre, Brunell, Hasselback, and Detmer.
 
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