BadKneesGuys -- torn meniscus vs. arthritis. Any way to tell? Does it matter? (1 Viewer)

[Doug B]

OK, so starting yesterday morning -- without any obvious trigger** -- my left knee turned stiff as a board and painful to try and bend. I can feel what I think is swelling inside the joint, but its not enough to be able to see any swelling externally.

Something similar happened to me last fall, but it was less severe. It only lasted a weekend, and alternating ice & rest seemed to make a big difference.

Currently, while I'm icing the knee, I get most of my range of motion back and a good reduction in pain. Problem is, as soon as I remove the ice, the knee locks right back up within a minute or so.

This morning, I did three 15-minute icing sessions interspersed with rest. Also took 800 mg of ibuprofen (for me that's an average dose, not a high one) and rubbed on an unmeasured amount of Aspercreme (maybe a dollop as big as a cashew).

At the moment -- 2 hours removed from ice and sitting at a desk chair the whole time -- I can actually bend my knee OK, but with a very dull, numbed-out pain sensation. I guess that's the ibuprofen + Aspercreme combo in effect.

If it's relevant to any advice: it's not an exercise-related injury. No regular exercise except about 30 -45 minutes a day of walking (not getting that lately due to WFH, though). I've been about 100-120 pounds over my fighting weight for over 20 years :(   It is what it is.

...

So ... is there any obvious distinction between symptoms of a torn meniscus and symptoms of arthritis? I had expected onset of arthritis to come on gradually. What I'm feeling now comes on suddenly -- I'm OK one day and then the knee locks up the next day. Any ideas and/or advice?
 

** non-obvious trigger: I use a desk chair with busted springs that tends to slide me off forwards. To counteract that, I've probably been bracing all my weight on that left leg at a suboptimal angle. Or it could have been something else altogether. 

 

[Cjw_55106]

I cant tell you how to determine the difference on your own, but a meniscus can get better with physical therapy or surgery. 

 

[Chemical X]

squeeze the inside and outside of your knee with your fingers.  any pain?  below the kneecap is your fatpad, push around, any pain?  if answers are yes, you have a meniscus issue.  nothing a shot cant help.

 

[the moops]

Also have two bad knees. Newish thing for me. I have had ankle, and elbow, and shoulder, and all sorts of other issues - but never knees. Until about 4 months ago. Was my right knee - which I rehabbed a bit with some exercises. Now, it's my ####### left knee. It sucks and it stinks and I miss my traditional shoulder and elbow and ankle pain

 

[dkp993]

OK, so starting yesterday morning -- without any obvious trigger** -- my left knee turned stiff as a board and painful to try and bend. I can feel what I think is swelling inside the joint, but its not enough to be able to see any swelling externally.

Something similar happened to me last fall, but it was less severe. It only lasted a weekend, and alternating ice & rest seemed to make a big difference.

Currently, while I'm icing the knee, I get most of my range of motion back and a good reduction in pain. Problem is, as soon as I remove the ice, the knee locks right back up within a minute or so.

This morning, I did three 15-minute icing sessions interspersed with rest. Also took 800 mg of ibuprofen (for me that's an average dose, not a high one) and rubbed on an unmeasured amount of Aspercreme (maybe a dollop as big as a cashew).

At the moment -- 2 hours removed from ice and sitting at a desk chair the whole time -- I can actually bend my knee OK, but with a very dull, numbed-out pain sensation. I guess that's the ibuprofen + Aspercreme combo in effect.

If it's relevant to any advice: it's not an exercise-related injury. No regular exercise except about 30 -45 minutes a day of walking (not getting that lately due to WFH, though). I've been about 100-120 pounds over my fighting weight for over 20 years :(   It is what it is.

...

So ... is there any obvious distinction between symptoms of a torn meniscus and symptoms of arthritis? I had expected onset of arthritis to come on gradually. What I'm feeling now comes on suddenly -- I'm OK one day and then the knee locks up the next day. Any ideas and/or advice?
 

** non-obvious trigger: I use a desk chair with busted springs that tends to slide me off forwards. To counteract that, I've probably been bracing all my weight on that left leg at a suboptimal angle. Or it could have been something else altogether. 

Having had four knee surgeries for torn meniscus’s I feel like an expert on this ####ty subject.  And my best answer to you is “maybe”. There’s no question you have fluid in your knee, but that could be from multiple things, including a torn meniscus.  One thing all my tears had in common is a weakness at times in the joint, the weakness wasn’t there all the time but there would be times when I would take a step in my knee would just buckle.  
 

Best advice I can give you is get it checked out. One of the biggest mistakes I made with my first tear was I probably walked (played ball, snowboarded, etc) around on it for 5+ years. My doctor is convinced that that’s a part of what’s led to a bunch of the other damage it’s in my knees.  I’m 44 now need knee replacements for both knees.  

 

[BigJohn]

I just had a 4cm meniscus tear repaired in October.  Actually injured it in June, just became unbearable.  It was my first knee surgery and I'm 41 and overweight.  So, when he did the surgery, he came out and was amazed I did not have more discomfort even before the meniscus tear, due to how much arthritis he cleaned out of my knee.  Recovery was rough, and compensating for that knee made my other knee react poorly as well.  Honestly, October-January was one of the most painful periods of my life.  Even managed to walk 41 miles at Disney the week of Christmas.

As far as what you're going through, it sounds more like arthritis.  When I had the meniscus tear, my biggest pain was bearing weight.  Especially after sitting for awhile.  I would have to stand in place for a minute or two before I could walk.

Now, since January, I've been on 750 mg of Nabulematone(anti-inflammatory) daily, my knees are starting to feel as close to normal as they have in almost a year.  My doctor did decide to stop it until he knows more about it's reactions with covid-19, but my knees are holding up so far.

ETA: do want to mention, absolutely get it checked out.  If you do have damage, putting it off will only make it worse.  Non-essential treatments being put on hold right now messes stuff up, but injections could maybe hold you over until we are through this crap.

 

[Doug B]

squeeze the inside and outside of your knee with your fingers.  any pain?

Squeezing outside of my knee is fine, no pain or sensitivity. "Inside" of my knee? You mean the back of my knee when bent -- where the ACL and PCL (?) cross each other? No pain or sensitivity there, either.

below the kneecap is your fatpad, push around, any pain?

Yep -- this is the painful and sensitive area. Right under the kneecap.

if answers are yes, you have a meniscus issue.  nothing a shot cant help.

Thanks, GB. Not likely to run out now and get a shot ... but I will see if anything improves in the next few days. I can mostly stay off of it ... probably will have to limp around the grocery store once, but that's it.

...

Man, that meniscus scare from last fall that only lasted a weekend ... I guess that kinda lulled me into a false sense of security about knee issues.

 

[Doug B]

One thing all my tears had in common is a weakness at times in the joint, the weakness wasn’t there all the time but there would be times when I would take a step in my knee would just buckle.  

Been having "buckling left knee" for something like 10-12 years. Used to be something that might happen a few times a month. Last few years, I typically experience a few buckles a day. Not fall-to-the-ground buckling, but definitely enough to get my attention.

 

[Doug B]

As far as what you're going through, it sounds more like arthritis.  When I had the meniscus tear, my biggest pain was bearing weight.  Especially after sitting for awhile.  I would have to stand in place for a minute or two before I could walk.

Ah, OK. Even now, putting weight on my left leg isn't painful. Bending the leg (sans medicine and/or ice) is very painful. Putting on clothes and getting into the driver's seat of my car has been an adventure.

 

[Doug B]

squeeze the inside and outside of your knee with your fingers.  any pain?

Squeezing outside of my knee is fine, no pain or sensitivity. "Inside" of my knee? You mean the back of my knee when bent -- where the ACL and PCL (?) cross each other? No pain or sensitivity there, either.

OK, I got what you meant about "inside/outside" the knee ... you just meant "both sides of the knee". But yeah, no pain or sensitivity pressing on those areas of the knee joint. All the action happens when I press on the area below the kneecap.

 

[dkp993]

Been having "buckling left knee" for something like 10-12 years. Used to be something that might happen a few times a month. Last few years, I typically experience a few buckles a day. Not fall-to-the-ground buckling, but definitely enough to get my attention.

That’s a very high indication of a tear.  My knee doctor has been the Chargers Head orthopedist for the last 10 or 12 years, he’s also the official Dr for Motocross. He’s a very well respected guy. Anyways when I went in the first time 10+ years ago complaining about my knee, the second I mentioned that my knee buckled periodically as well as periodically would lock up, before I even got the next words out he said I had a meniscus tear.  Of course that’s what it turned out to be.  

 

[dkp993]

Been having "buckling left knee" for something like 10-12 years. Used to be something that might happen a few times a month. Last few years, I typically experience a few buckles a day. Not fall-to-the-ground buckling, but definitely enough to get my attention.

Also on a sidenote I’ve gone through every step leading up to Knee replacement, all the different levels of shots, Cortisone, Euflexxa, PRP, repair surgery, etc, so if you need any thoughts or first hand experience with those I’m happy to help.  

 

[top dog]

I have horrible knees.  Had a pretty brutal knee injury playing basketball that resulted in a torn LCL, ACL and significant damage to the posterolateral corner of the knee (WAY MORE DAMAGING THAN THE ACL).  Had 2 major surgeries to fix it and a LONG recovery.  Great doc.  We a team orthopedic for Ohio State University at one point if I remember right.  But he's kind of a smart ###.  Went back because I was having some pain years later kneeling on my knee. He said, "Don't kneel on it".  I told him that was not really an answer.  He then said, "Look. Your knee is more stable than we could have ever imagined.  We are NOT going back in for a piece of scar tissue.  It will work itself out."  And it did.

My right knee started giving me trouble.  Went back to the doc.  He said I had a torn meniscus AND arthritis in that knee.  Most likely due to a degenerative condition due to a skateboarding  injury when I was younger.  He said they couldn't say for sure where the majority of my pain was from.  The meniscus or the arthritis BUT... He could fix the meniscus.  Had the surgery done.  Was really no big deal.  Outpatient, was able to walk immediately with crutches and weight on the leg.  Think I was off the crutches within a week.  THAT BEING SAID... When I was all healed up.. Knee hurt just as much as before.  Doc was like "Yup.  I told you that there was both."

Don't be afraid of the surgery (other than it being a pretty scary time to go to hospital and all).  The recovery from it was really not bad.  I didn't need anything more than ibuprofen for the discomfort. 

 

[Doug B]

My right knee started giving me trouble.  Went back to the doc.  He said I had a torn meniscus AND arthritis in that knee.  Most likely due to a degenerative condition due to a skateboarding  injury when I was younger.  He said they couldn't say for sure where the majority of my pain was from.  The meniscus or the arthritis BUT... He could fix the meniscus.  Had the surgery done.  Was really no big deal.  Outpatient, was able to walk immediately with crutches and weight on the leg.  Think I was off the crutches within a week.  THAT BEING SAID... When I was all healed up.. Knee hurt just as much as before.  Doc was like "Yup.  I told you that there was both."

I could deal with the pain if I could get back to a normal range of motion. I had Osgood-Schlatter during my sports-playing days as a teen, and my knees always ached back then. With a normal range of motion -- perhaps restored through meniscus surgery and a general clean-out -- it would probably feel a lot like Osgod-Schlatter.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Could it be bursitis?

 

[Doug B]

Could it be bursitis?

Maybe. The bursitis causes and symptoms seems a little different, though.

Does that article say/show that there's a bursa between the kneecap and the skin? That area is not the least bit painful or sensitive.

 

[msommer]

I'm sure your local GP can give you a determination, if not a referral to a specialist. But you know this.
There is no cheat code for knees.

 

[Doug B]

I'm sure your local GP can give you a determination, if not a referral to a specialist. But you know this.
There is no cheat code for knees.

Indeed. Trying to avoid medical care in the short term for anything non-life-threatening that I can put up with.

Also, the two-day knee thing from last fall gives me hope for (temporary) relief.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

Perhaps you can use a knee brace until you can actually see a doctor.

 

[Doug B]

Perhaps you can use a knee brace until you can actually see a doctor.

Yeah, I will see if I can find one.

 

[beef]

I tore pretty much everything in my knee.  Had the buckle.  Meniscus shaved down and smoothed out and I deal with arthritis.  Not much to add that hasn't already been said.  Just really wanted to add that PT absolutely worked for me.  Seriously.  PT saved me physically and mentally.  

 

[DA RAIDERS]

another surgically repaired guy here.  could be a lot of things.  sounds meniscus related.  i had a spur in my meniscus that would catch and cause unbelievable pain.  my knee, out of pain prevention, would appear to be locked up.  it wasn't, my body was just trying to get around the pain.

good times.

p.s.  did you fix the stove?

 

[Doug B]

p.s.  did you fix the stove?

Nah ... stove works great. It was the oven -- for us, the stove and oven are separate appliances.

But, no ... the oven hasn't been fixed yet.

 

[Doug B]

Just really wanted to add that PT absolutely worked for me.  Seriously.  PT saved me physically and mentally.  

Could someone, conceivably, "PT" their way out of the problems associated with a legit tear? Or is it imperative that the physical damage be dealt with first?

 

[dkp993]

Could someone, conceivably, "PT" their way out of the problems associated with a legit tear? Or is it imperative that the physical damage be dealt with first?

The only thing the PT does to help is strengthen your quads which control your knee. So the stronger your quads are the more it takes the stress off your knee but it won’t ultimately fix the tear. The problem is that the majority of the meniscus has almost no bloodflow just like ligaments, so they don’t repair the way muscles do, in fact they don’t repair at all. Now there is a part of your meniscus that does get blood flow and could respond but that all depends on where the tear is.  But this also happens extremely slow as the blood flow is restricted  

I ended up having a tear in the portion that receives blood flow (my 3rd tear) and it created a bigger problem because a massive cyst developed.  

 

[top dog]

Perhaps you can use a knee brace until you can actually see a doctor.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Could someone, conceivably, "PT" their way out of the problems associated with a legit tear? Or is it imperative that the physical damage be dealt with first?

no.  i went years on what was probably a torn or partially torn acl.  as someone mentioned upthread, neglecting the issue, will make it worse.  my surgeon used the word, vaporized, referring to my acl.  if and when you get any kind of surgery.  choose wisely.  my guy was the ducks(pro hockey) knee specialist.  i have 2 dots and a 2 inch scar on my knee.  can't really see any of them.

 

[Mrs. Rannous]

I don't think I want a doctor using the word 'vaporized' about my injury.