Baltimore: The Next Ferguson? (2 Viewers)

[PinkydaPimp]

Gonna see if I can get tix. It is Mother's Day and my mother-in-law is going to be in town so I have to see if my wife will go for it

I hope it's peaceful, but there's not a chance I would go. Especially with my family.

Well, I'm not planning on taking my Mother-in-Law.

Let me give you an on-the-ground report from Baltimore. There have been no disturbances in the past 10 days, and the one day - Monday, April 27 - is really pretty much the only day anything happened. There were a few nightly confrontations at 10 p.m. near the end of the curfew, but those all went away as soon as the curfew did.

I continue to believe that the April 27 conflagration could also have been avoided and was, in fact, precipitated by the Police. Other than a few broken windows, the violence was completely contained in an impoverished, African-American neighborhood.

At any rate, life is completely back to normal in pretty much all of Baltimore, and definitely within the enclaves in which I live, work, and recreate. I'm not sure what people think is going to happen at the Baltimore Arena, other than a coming together of a very racially integrated group of individuals eager to have a good time and see our city continue to avoid violence.

i wish i could go to this.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Prince just announced Rally for Peace concert in Bmore on Sunday with superstar guests expected. Tickets on sale tomorrow at 5.

Sweet. Poor people should love this.

 

[Apple Jack]

Baltimore's worst > rockaction

Arsonists, murderers, thieves, property damagers, etc.

Yeah, that was obviously inaccurate and IMO merits an apology.

I think I know what Apple Jack might have meant. He might have meant that while Baltimore's worst are obviously worse than rockaction, it's more important to criticize rockaction's position than it is to criticize Baltimore's worst. Here in the FFA, nobody is in danger of siding with Baltimore's worst, so criticizing them is, at best, a waste of time. At worst, it perpetuates the odious idea that large segments of the city of Baltimore deserve whatever bad things happen to them. So criticizing Baltimore's worst, within the context of this thread, may actually do more harm than good. Meanwhile, a number of people in the FFA may share rockaction's position, so criticizing that has a legitimate chance of changing people's minds. Apple Jack is therefore making a rational choice to criticize rockaction's position more heavily than he'll criticize Baltimore's worst.

That's as charitably as I can interpret Apple Jack's post, but even under that interpretation, he still phrased it very poorly.

Consistent with many of his positions on social matters, he's pretty vicious in his dismissal of an entire city he clearly has little to no familiarity with. I'll take an entrenched drug dealer over that.

But yes, there is truth to what you say there.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Prince just announced Rally for Peace concert in Bmore on Sunday with superstar guests expected. Tickets on sale tomorrow at 5.

Sweet. Poor people should love this.

Some of the proceeds are going to a youth charity in Baltimore. And you don't know how the tickets are priced, or if some have been set aside for charitable groups.

Why is everyone is such a hurry to take a #### on everything? And what does a concert for peace in response to the Gray incident have to do with poverty?

 

[Apple Jack]

I more glass half full way of saying it would have been:

Jimmy's Crab Cakes > rockaction's crab cakes

 

[General Tso]

Or you could just say you disagree with Rock's opinion on the issue, and cite reasons why you think your opinion is more sound. Your opinion and your experiences are just as important as anyone else's in here, and frankly I'd like to hear more of them.

 

[timschochet]

I've been reading that lead poisoning in. a huge problem in West Baltimore. Michael Tomasky had an article about it in The Daily Beast-it causes ADHD. These are old buildings and very Littles been done to clean it up.

 

[DocHolliday]

We'll have plenty of time to dive into the case later, but one of the things that stood out from the start with regard to the Prosecution's case is this assertion that Gray sustained a critical neck injury during transport. Maybe she has some evidence to support this, but I have to be honest - when I first saw the video of Gray being loaded into the truck I thought he looked seriously injured at that time. To my untrained eye he looked partially paralyzed when he was being dragged into the van. And there is some eyewitness testimony at the first stop a block away (when they put shackles on him) that he once again looked paralyzed and in rough shape. Check it out - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V60gwWTfIX0

Is it possible that he sustained a broken neck during the takedown and was therefore unable to keep himself seated on the bench in the moving van? Maybe he had a broken neck that was subsequently displaced during a fall in the van?

I have not kept up with this thread but this has been brought up before. Has there been discussion concerning the way Gray had to be dragged into the truck since he could not walk?

 

[TheIronSheik]

Prince just announced Rally for Peace concert in Bmore on Sunday with superstar guests expected. Tickets on sale tomorrow at 5.

Sweet. Poor people should love this.

Some of the proceeds are going to a youth charity in Baltimore. And you don't know how the tickets are priced, or if some have been set aside for charitable groups.

Why is everyone is such a hurry to take a #### on everything? And what does a concert for peace in response to the Gray incident have to do with poverty?

Easy there, killer. It was just a joke.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Prince just announced Rally for Peace concert in Bmore on Sunday with superstar guests expected. Tickets on sale tomorrow at 5.

Sweet. Poor people should love this.

Some of the proceeds are going to a youth charity in Baltimore. And you don't know how the tickets are priced, or if some have been set aside for charitable groups.

Why is everyone is such a hurry to take a #### on everything? And what does a concert for peace in response to the Gray incident have to do with poverty?

Easy there, killer. It was just a joke.

Although I do find this line funnier than my joke. Hello, pot! My name is kettle.

 

[General Tso]

We'll have plenty of time to dive into the case later, but one of the things that stood out from the start with regard to the Prosecution's case is this assertion that Gray sustained a critical neck injury during transport. Maybe she has some evidence to support this, but I have to be honest - when I first saw the video of Gray being loaded into the truck I thought he looked seriously injured at that time. To my untrained eye he looked partially paralyzed when he was being dragged into the van. And there is some eyewitness testimony at the first stop a block away (when they put shackles on him) that he once again looked paralyzed and in rough shape. Check it out -

There really hasn't been a lot of discussion on this, and I agree that it's an important aspect of the case. I remember seeing a breakdown of the vidro a while back and there being the assertion that Gray uses his legs at the very end where he steps into the van. I'll have to revisit the video.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Prince just announced Rally for Peace concert in Bmore on Sunday with superstar guests expected. Tickets on sale tomorrow at 5.

Sweet. Poor people should love this.

Some of the proceeds are going to a youth charity in Baltimore. And you don't know how the tickets are priced, or if some have been set aside for charitable groups.

Why is everyone is such a hurry to take a #### on everything? And what does a concert for peace in response to the Gray incident have to do with poverty?

Easy there, killer. It was just a joke.

Eh. Being snarky about a Prince concert is like being snarky about dogs or beer or college girls wearing sundresses. Some things are just too awesome for internet snark.

 

[Apple Jack]

Or you could just say you disagree with Rock's opinion on the issue, and cite reasons why you think your opinion is more sound. Your opinion and your experiences are just as important as anyone else's in here, and frankly I'd like to hear more of them.

My opinion is that Baltimore is an interesting and unique city. Unfortunately, the drug trade in east and west balto has paid the bills for many for a long time and has resulted in a cycle that is very difficult to break on multiple levels. BPD has a history of corruption, incompetence, and brutality within those communities. I'm not sure what happened with Freddie Gray yet, but all indications point to mistreatment by the cops involved which is not surprising. That's pretty much all there is to it for me at the moment.

 

[timschochet]

The mayor has announced that she's asked for the Justice Department to investigate the Baltimore Police Department and determine if it is racially biased.

 

[General Tso]

The mayor has announced that she's asked for the Justice Department to investigate the Baltimore Police Department and determine if it is racially biased.

I hope they do this right. I have to admit I have come around on this issue of implicit bias. I've seen some studies on it lately and there's definitely something to it. The Season 6 premiere of "Through the Wormhole" last week focused on it.I've seen studies that suggest that both whites and blacks initially view blacks as more dangerous. It's a split second thing that we're not even conscious of. I've also seen studies that police are less likely to pull the trigger against a black person. It's interesting stuff and there's some very good science behind it, with experiments done in a controlled environment.

On the other side of the spectrum is the junk data and anecdotes, and there's a lot of this stuff floating around out there. The Goverment has a mixed track record when conducting studies like this. I am all for them doing it right here, and truly getting to the bottom of the issue. The country needs it.

 

[tom22406]

Former Baltimore Deputy State's Attorney chimes in,calls the charges "Incompetent at best"

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/fmr-deputy-baltimore-states-atty-mosbys-police-charges-incompetent-at-best/

She did no consultation with the police investigators. There had to have been many questions. Her own charging documents raise many questions…. [W]hat you were doing was investigating how this person died because to this day we don’t know how he died. If there was evidence immediately available that showed that a police officer had broken [Gray's] neck, there would have been an immediate arrest. This is not that situation. This is a situation which called for an investigation and she did not use all of the tools available to her to do a completely thorough investigation.

Full CNN interview included in link.

 

[RCon]

The mayor has announced that she's asked for the Justice Department to investigate the Baltimore Police Department and determine if it is racially biased.

Well, that should work great. It's not like "racially biased" is subjective or anything.

 

[Apple Jack]

The mayor has announced that she's asked for the Justice Department to investigate the Baltimore Police Department and determine if it is racially biased.

Well, that should work great. It's not like "racially biased" is subjective or anything.

And if that is the full scope of the investigation she is seeking, it misses the point badly.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The mayor has announced that she's asked for the Justice Department to investigate the Baltimore Police Department and determine if it is racially biased.

That's not a bad idea frankly, it sounds like some reforms are needed.

 

[timschochet]

The mayor has announced that she's asked for the Justice Department to investigate the Baltimore Police Department and determine if it is racially biased.

Well, that should work great. It's not like "racially biased" is subjective or anything.

And if that is the full scope of the investigation she is seeking, it misses the point badly.

I got that from a blip on the radio- ABC news. So it might be more detailed.

 

[timschochet]

Former Baltimore Deputy State's Attorney chimes in,calls the charges "Incompetent at best"

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/fmr-deputy-baltimore-states-atty-mosbys-police-charges-incompetent-at-best/

She did no consultation with the police investigators. There had to have been many questions. Her own charging documents raise many questions…. [W]hat you were doing was investigating how this person died because to this day we don’t know how he died. If there was evidence immediately available that showed that a police officer had broken [Gray's] neck, there would have been an immediate arrest. This is not that situation. This is a situation which called for an investigation and she did not use all of the tools available to her to do a completely thorough investigation.

Full CNN interview included in link.

We've discussed this at length.

But the fact that this woman is now on CNN suggests that she is not adverse to a little publicity herself.

 

[timschochet]

I'll be honest- I hope the prosecutor didn't screw this whole thing up too badly. It may have been much better for her to take a more conservative approach. She would have been criticized no matter what she did, of course, but I really hope it works out for her.

Because if these guys are acquitted, I can't even bear to think what will happen next...

 

[rockaction]

Baltimore's worst > rockaction

Arsonists, murderers, thieves, property damagers, etc.

Yeah, that was obviously inaccurate and IMO merits an apology.

I think I know what Apple Jack might have meant. He might have meant that while Baltimore's worst are obviously worse than rockaction, it's more important to criticize rockaction's position than it is to criticize Baltimore's worst. Here in the FFA, nobody is in danger of siding with Baltimore's worst, so criticizing them is, at best, a waste of time. At worst, it perpetuates the odious idea that large segments of the city of Baltimore deserve whatever bad things happen to them. So criticizing Baltimore's worst, within the context of this thread, may actually do more harm than good. Meanwhile, a number of people in the FFA may share rockaction's position, so criticizing that has a legitimate chance of changing people's minds. Apple Jack is therefore making a rational choice to criticize rockaction's position more heavily than he'll criticize Baltimore's worst.

That's as charitably as I can interpret Apple Jack's post, but even under that interpretation, he still phrased it very poorly.

Consistent with many of his positions on social matters, he's pretty vicious in his dismissal of an entire city he clearly has little to no familiarity with. I'll take an entrenched drug dealer over that.

But yes, there is truth to what you say there.

Wat?

Living twenty-five minutes for five years outside of a major metropolitan area, spending six months researching a project at one of its inner-city libraries, going there for social events all the time, etc. counts as "little to no familiarity?" In yours and Tobias's world. Probably not in most everybody else's in real life.

What social matters? The transgender thread? It certainly isn't a gay thread or a feminist thread, so I can assure you don't know what on earth you're talking about, per usual. If ever there was a "you don't know me," this is the place for it. God, you don't even know how insufferable your "insight" or judgments are.

You'll do and say anything about me or others to discredit their positions, you've been snarking, dismissing, arguing your own empirical cred without considering others have had a very similar experience to yours, and just generally #####ing about what has happened all thread instead of putting forth reasonable debate, and it shows.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Living twenty-five minutes for five years outside of a major metropolitan area, spending six months researching a project at one of its inner-city libraries, going there for social events all the time, etc. counts as "little to no familiarity?" In yours and Tobias's world. Probably not in most everybody else's in real life.

Nah, I'm pretty sure most people would consider that little to no familiarity. Certainly almost anyone who actually lives in a city would say that about someone who lived 25 minutes outside their city 15 years ago. That is, if they could get the words out between fits of uncontrollable laughter

 

[rockaction]

Living twenty-five minutes for five years outside of a major metropolitan area, spending six months researching a project at one of its inner-city libraries, going there for social events all the time, etc. counts as "little to no familiarity?" In yours and Tobias's world. Probably not in most everybody else's in real life.

Nah, I'm pretty sure most people would consider that little to no familiarity. Certainly almost anyone who actually lives in a city would say that about someone who lived 25 minutes outside their city 15 years ago. That is, if they could get the words out between fits of uncontrollable laughter

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

 

[timschochet]

This whole argument about how much personal knowledge rockaction has with Baltimore is pointless, and , on both sides, it assumes a position which I've always detested and rejected, namely:

You can't possibly know what it's like because you weren't there!

I can't tell you how many times in my life I've heard this argument, usually offered when somebody has nothing else to offer. I can't discuss Israel because I've never been. I can't discuss South Africa because I've never been. And so on. It's absurd. What do we have books for? Articles? The internet? If you read up enough on any subject, and if you can trust your sources, you can offer a legitimate opinion on that subject. You don't need to be geographically present. In fact, oftentimes if you ARE there it gives you a rather skewed opinion perhaps, because you're likely to consider more emotional factors.

If rockaction offers good opinions about what should be done in this situation, then they're good opinions. If he offers bad opinions, then they're bad opinions. How much time he spent there is completely irrelevant to what he knows and thinks about this issue. Same with everyone else.

 

[Apple Jack]

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

actually, no, they're not

 

[rockaction]

This whole argument about how much personal knowledge rockaction has with Baltimore is pointless, and , on both sides, it assumes a position which I've always detested and rejected, namely:

You can't possibly know what it's like because you weren't there!

I can't tell you how many times in my life I've heard this argument, usually offered when somebody has nothing else to offer. I can't discuss Israel because I've never been. I can't discuss South Africa because I've never been. And so on. It's absurd. What do we have books for? Articles? The internet? If you read up enough on any subject, and if you can trust your sources, you can offer a legitimate opinion on that subject. You don't need to be geographically present. In fact, oftentimes if you ARE there it gives you a rather skewed opinion perhaps, because you're likely to consider more emotional factors.

If rockaction offers good opinions about what should be done in this situation, then they're good opinions. If he offers bad opinions, then they're bad opinions. How much time he spent there is completely irrelevant to what he knows and thinks about this issue. Same with everyone else.

That's exactly how I feel about it. I've begun to argue strenuously for a more non-empirical approach to things on a message board unless you've really been embedded in a particular lifestyle/area, etc. My postings about being around Baltimore were in response to why I'm interested or what I could bring to bear as a passing observer; not whether arguments should hinge on it. It's never pleasant when people tell you about your own familiarity on something and hold themselves out as arbiters of personal experience. It's a stupid fight, even though I think I'm in the right on it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Living twenty-five minutes for five years outside of a major metropolitan area, spending six months researching a project at one of its inner-city libraries, going there for social events all the time, etc. counts as "little to no familiarity?" In yours and Tobias's world. Probably not in most everybody else's in real life.

Nah, I'm pretty sure most people would consider that little to no familiarity. Certainly almost anyone who actually lives in a city would say that about someone who lived 25 minutes outside their city 15 years ago. That is, if they could get the words out between fits of uncontrollable laughter

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

You know how there's always some loudmouth calling for screen passes because they worked really well on the old version of Madden he played with his buddies in college? That's you in this thread.

 

[rockaction]

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

actually, no, they're not

Just stroll along the timeline. 30,000 people since I left, over 300,000 people since 1970.

https://www.google.com/#q=baltimore%2C+population

 

[Apple Jack]

You can't possibly know what it's like because you weren't there!

Actually, that's often the case.

 

[rockaction]

Living twenty-five minutes for five years outside of a major metropolitan area, spending six months researching a project at one of its inner-city libraries, going there for social events all the time, etc. counts as "little to no familiarity?" In yours and Tobias's world. Probably not in most everybody else's in real life.

Nah, I'm pretty sure most people would consider that little to no familiarity. Certainly almost anyone who actually lives in a city would say that about someone who lived 25 minutes outside their city 15 years ago. That is, if they could get the words out between fits of uncontrollable laughter

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

You know how there's always some loudmouth calling for screen passes because they worked really well on the old version of Madden he played with his buddies in college? That's you in this thread.

No, you made it an issue. I defended it.

You're kind of the jackalope here.

 

[TobiasFunke]

This whole argument about how much personal knowledge rockaction has with Baltimore is pointless, and , on both sides, it assumes a position which I've always detested and rejected, namely:

You can't possibly know what it's like because you weren't there!

I can't tell you how many times in my life I've heard this argument, usually offered when somebody has nothing else to offer. I can't discuss Israel because I've never been. I can't discuss South Africa because I've never been. And so on. It's absurd. What do we have books for? Articles? The internet? If you read up enough on any subject, and if you can trust your sources, you can offer a legitimate opinion on that subject. You don't need to be geographically present. In fact, oftentimes if you ARE there it gives you a rather skewed opinion perhaps, because you're likely to consider more emotional factors.

If rockaction offers good opinions about what should be done in this situation, then they're good opinions. If he offers bad opinions, then they're bad opinions. How much time he spent there is completely irrelevant to what he knows and thinks about this issue. Same with everyone else.

Except that his argument was based on his personal experience. He said he didn't care if the place burned to the ground and that it is getting what it deserved, and his basis for those statements was his personal experience with and knowledge of the city.

 

[rockaction]

This whole argument about how much personal knowledge rockaction has with Baltimore is pointless, and , on both sides, it assumes a position which I've always detested and rejected, namely:

You can't possibly know what it's like because you weren't there!

I can't tell you how many times in my life I've heard this argument, usually offered when somebody has nothing else to offer. I can't discuss Israel because I've never been. I can't discuss South Africa because I've never been. And so on. It's absurd. What do we have books for? Articles? The internet? If you read up enough on any subject, and if you can trust your sources, you can offer a legitimate opinion on that subject. You don't need to be geographically present. In fact, oftentimes if you ARE there it gives you a rather skewed opinion perhaps, because you're likely to consider more emotional factors.

If rockaction offers good opinions about what should be done in this situation, then they're good opinions. If he offers bad opinions, then they're bad opinions. How much time he spent there is completely irrelevant to what he knows and thinks about this issue. Same with everyone else.

Except that his argument was based on his personal experience. He said he didn't care if the place burned to the ground and that it is getting what it deserved, and his basis for those statements was his personal experience with and knowledge of the city.

No. You keep saying that, and it wasn't. You're really upset. You can't argue any cogent point, and you're pissed. Too bad. Time to end this.

 

[Apple Jack]

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

actually, no, they're not

Just stroll along the timeline. 30,000 people since I left, over 300,000 people since 1970.

https://www.google.com/#q=baltimore%2C+population

That has nothing to do with what you said.

 

[rockaction]

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

actually, no, they're not

Just stroll along the timeline. 30,000 people since I left, over 300,000 people since 1970.

https://www.google.com/#q=baltimore%2C+population

That has nothing to do with what you said.

That people are leaving Baltimore and the overall population has declined radically? What on earth did you think I was saying?

 

[rockaction]

Apple Jack, don't you live in D.C.?

 

[The_Man]

Living twenty-five minutes for five years outside of a major metropolitan area, spending six months researching a project at one of its inner-city libraries, going there for social events all the time, etc. counts as "little to no familiarity?" In yours and Tobias's world. Probably not in most everybody else's in real life.

Nah, I'm pretty sure most people would consider that little to no familiarity. Certainly almost anyone who actually lives in a city would say that about someone who lived 25 minutes outside their city 15 years ago. That is, if they could get the words out between fits of uncontrollable laughter

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

In 2000 - presumably when you were here 15 years ago - Baltimore had 651,154 residents. By 2013, it had plummeted to 622,104 - a stunning loss of 4 percent.

The population grew by more than 1,000 from 2011 to 2013. People are actually moving back into the city.

Also, is the inner-city library you worked at the Central branch of Enoch Pratt?

 

[rockaction]

Same with Tobias. Didn't Tobias say about DuPont circle and me, "Howdy neighbor" a long time ago?

 

[rockaction]

Living twenty-five minutes for five years outside of a major metropolitan area, spending six months researching a project at one of its inner-city libraries, going there for social events all the time, etc. counts as "little to no familiarity?" In yours and Tobias's world. Probably not in most everybody else's in real life.

Nah, I'm pretty sure most people would consider that little to no familiarity. Certainly almost anyone who actually lives in a city would say that about someone who lived 25 minutes outside their city 15 years ago. That is, if they could get the words out between fits of uncontrollable laughter

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

In 2000 - presumably when you were here 15 years ago - Baltimore had 651,154 residents. By 2013, it had plummeted to 622,104 - a stunning loss of 4 percent.

The population grew by more than 1,000 from 2011 to 2013. People are actually moving back into the city.

Also, is the inner-city library you worked at the Central branch of Enoch Pratt?

Enoch Pratt Free Library

 

[rockaction]

Living twenty-five minutes for five years outside of a major metropolitan area, spending six months researching a project at one of its inner-city libraries, going there for social events all the time, etc. counts as "little to no familiarity?" In yours and Tobias's world. Probably not in most everybody else's in real life.

Nah, I'm pretty sure most people would consider that little to no familiarity. Certainly almost anyone who actually lives in a city would say that about someone who lived 25 minutes outside their city 15 years ago. That is, if they could get the words out between fits of uncontrollable laughter

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

In 2000 - presumably when you were here 15 years ago - Baltimore had 651,154 residents. By 2013, it had plummeted to 622,104 - a stunning loss of 4 percent.

The population grew by more than 1,000 from 2011 to 2013. People are actually moving back into the city.

Also, is the inner-city library you worked at the Central branch of Enoch Pratt?

The numbers went down from 2013-2014, but 1,000 people out of 30,000 is not an upward trend.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Same with Tobias. Didn't Tobias say about DuPont circle and me, "Howdy neighbor" a long time ago?

Yup. Don't live near there any more, but still in the city. You still around?

 

[Apple Jack]

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

actually, no, they're not

Just stroll along the timeline. 30,000 people since I left, over 300,000 people since 1970.

https://www.google.com/#q=baltimore%2C+population

That has nothing to do with what you said.

That people are leaving Baltimore and the overall population has declined radically? What on earth did you think I was saying?

Going back to 1970 data doesn't exactly speak to what is the current trend, which is what "leavING" suggests. The population is higher now than it was in 2010.

 

[The_Man]

also this since you cruelly deprived Baltimore of your presence in 2000:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDgQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.godowntownbaltimore.com%2Fpublications%2Fpress_releases%2Fdowntown_families_release.pdf&ei=-2pKVeGqK_eNsQTrk4HgCA&usg=AFQjCNHNeL53U9hAkOf9Oo8hpAEhSNjOeQ&sig2=1VAuVlNXE_TvU5n-n97nbw&bvm=bv.92765956,d.cWc

DOWNTOWN BALTIMORE GAINING POPULATION:
Downtown seeing increases in the number of families, residents,
households; Higher Average Income, Per Capita Income

The number of families living in Downtown Baltimore increased 12.4 percent
between 2000 and 2010. That’s a higher increase in families than was
experienced in several other Downtowns, including Boston, New York,
Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati.

In addition to the growth in families, the core of the Downtown area (census tract
401) experienced the highest population increase in Baltimore City between 2000
and 2010 (a 130% increase). Overall, the Downtown area (within a one-mile
radius from Pratt and Light Streets) experienced a 13.6 percent population
increase since 2000.

 

[rockaction]

Same with Tobias. Didn't Tobias say about DuPont circle and me, "Howdy neighbor" a long time ago?

Yup. Don't live near there any more, but still in the city. You still around?

Ah, okay. No -- I am in CT.

Yeah, having worked down there and always going to the various attractions. Tobias, you have a special brand of tenacity. It's crazy, unforgiving, and generally incorrect, but it's tenacious. And Baltimore certainly has changed in one way in fifteen years - its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves.

actually, no, they're not

Just stroll along the timeline. 30,000 people since I left, over 300,000 people since 1970.

https://www.google.com/#q=baltimore%2C+population

That has nothing to do with what you said.

That people are leaving Baltimore and the overall population has declined radically? What on earth did you think I was saying?

Going back to 1970 data doesn't exactly speak to what is the current trend, which is what "leavING" suggests. The population is higher now than it was in 2010.

It's lost 30,000 people since I left. 1,000 people and then a dip last year is not a trend.

 

[Apple Jack]

Yet people are not leaving in droves. You are wrong. Best to let that one be. Any other insights you can share with the world about Baltimore?

 

[timschochet]

This whole argument about how much personal knowledge rockaction has with Baltimore is pointless, and , on both sides, it assumes a position which I've always detested and rejected, namely:

You can't possibly know what it's like because you weren't there!

I can't tell you how many times in my life I've heard this argument, usually offered when somebody has nothing else to offer. I can't discuss Israel because I've never been. I can't discuss South Africa because I've never been. And so on. It's absurd. What do we have books for? Articles? The internet? If you read up enough on any subject, and if you can trust your sources, you can offer a legitimate opinion on that subject. You don't need to be geographically present. In fact, oftentimes if you ARE there it gives you a rather skewed opinion perhaps, because you're likely to consider more emotional factors.

If rockaction offers good opinions about what should be done in this situation, then they're good opinions. If he offers bad opinions, then they're bad opinions. How much time he spent there is completely irrelevant to what he knows and thinks about this issue. Same with everyone else.

That's exactly how I feel about it. I've begun to argue strenuously for a more non-empirical approach to things on a message board unless you've really been embedded in a particular lifestyle/area, etc. My postings about being around Baltimore were in response to why I'm interested or what I could bring to bear as a passing observer; not whether arguments should hinge on it. It's never pleasant when people tell you about your own familiarity on something and hold themselves out as arbiters of personal experience. It's a stupid fight, even though I think I'm in the right on it.

Good. Let's move on. I THINK I strongly disagree with most of what you've written on this subject, but I'm not 100% sure, since I can't remember now what's accurate about your position and what isn't since we've gotten so sidetracked.

Very briefly, what do you think are the causes of the riot in Baltimore? What do you think should be done about them? And what would you like to see happen in the upcoming trial?

 

[rockaction]

also this since you cruelly deprived Baltimore of your presence in 2000:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDgQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.godowntownbaltimore.com%2Fpublications%2Fpress_releases%2Fdowntown_families_release.pdf&ei=-2pKVeGqK_eNsQTrk4HgCA&usg=AFQjCNHNeL53U9hAkOf9Oo8hpAEhSNjOeQ&sig2=1VAuVlNXE_TvU5n-n97nbw&bvm=bv.92765956,d.cWc

DOWNTOWN BALTIMORE GAINING POPULATION:

Downtown seeing increases in the number of families, residents,

households; Higher Average Income, Per Capita Income

The number of families living in Downtown Baltimore increased 12.4 percent

between 2000 and 2010. That’s a higher increase in families than was

experienced in several other Downtowns, including Boston, New York,

Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati.

In addition to the growth in families, the core of the Downtown area (census tract

401) experienced the highest population increase in Baltimore City between 2000

and 2010 (a 130% increase). Overall, the Downtown area (within a one-mile

radius from Pratt and Light Streets) experienced a 13.6 percent population

increase since 2000.

Baltimore experienced no growth in those years. You're talking about downtown, and you cited the Downtown Partnership, obviously a nice developmental report for a specific area of Baltimore. Great.

Baltimore has lost around 30,000 people since 2000.

 

[rockaction]

Yet people are not leaving in droves. You are wrong. Best to let that one be. Any other insights you can share with the world about Baltimore?

The city lost a third of itself from 1970-

The city lost 30,000 people from 2001.

What's worse than that? From what I can gather, most major metropolitan areas saw significant increases in population during that time. Baltimore lost people.

 

[The_Man]

also this since you cruelly deprived Baltimore of your presence in 2000:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDgQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.godowntownbaltimore.com%2Fpublications%2Fpress_releases%2Fdowntown_families_release.pdf&ei=-2pKVeGqK_eNsQTrk4HgCA&usg=AFQjCNHNeL53U9hAkOf9Oo8hpAEhSNjOeQ&sig2=1VAuVlNXE_TvU5n-n97nbw&bvm=bv.92765956,d.cWc

DOWNTOWN BALTIMORE GAINING POPULATION:

Downtown seeing increases in the number of families, residents,

households; Higher Average Income, Per Capita Income

The number of families living in Downtown Baltimore increased 12.4 percent

between 2000 and 2010. That’s a higher increase in families than was

experienced in several other Downtowns, including Boston, New York,

Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati.

In addition to the growth in families, the core of the Downtown area (census tract

401) experienced the highest population increase in Baltimore City between 2000

and 2010 (a 130% increase). Overall, the Downtown area (within a one-mile

radius from Pratt and Light Streets) experienced a 13.6 percent population

increase since 2000.

Baltimore experienced no growth in those years. You're talking about downtown, and you cited the Downtown Partnership, obviously a nice developmental report for a specific area of Baltimore. Great.

Baltimore has lost around 30,000 people since 2000.

I know - I'm the one that posted that fact. That's a 4 percent loss over 15 years - not the same as "its population is hemorrhaging because people are fleeing it in droves. "

Especially since by all evidence, the outflow has stopped and possibly been reversed as people have begun to move back into the great new downtown core over the last few years.