Bates resigns as Broncos DC (1 Viewer)

[rascal]

Many a comment in this blog in recent weeks has focused upon the status of assistant head coach Jim Bates.

Tuesday, his status was resolved with the announcement he would not return for the 2008 season.

In a statement, Bates said that he had the opportunity to remain with the Broncos but opted to stand down after just one season in Denver.

“I’m very thankful for the opportunity and very saddened that things did not work out,” he said.”

“I had the opportunity to stay. (Head Coach) Mike (Shanahan) has been very fair with me, and the final decision, for the Broncos and for me, was to step aside.”

http://blog.denverbroncos.com/mason/2008/0...return-in-2008/

 

[Jason Wood]

Bates is an odd ball, at times he seems to have worked wonders with his quirky 4-3 front (where he insists on having the ends out wide on nearly every down) but at other times his defenses have been relatively ineffective. Certainly personnel plays a part, but did Denver's personnel get hurt/change that much this year to justify the complete erosion of their effectiveness against the run? I wonder if he just doesn't have the desire any more.

 

[rascal]

Yeah.

The only thing is that I don't want Slowik as DC.

Just digging up rankings from Slowik's 2004 season in GB:

Points Allowed: 23rd

Yards Allowed: 25th

1st Downs Allowed: 23rd

----------

Passing Attempts: 20th

Passing TDs Allowed: 32nd!!

Passing Yards Allowed: 25th

Passes Intercepted: 31st

Yards Per Attempt: 23rd

---------

Rushing Attempts: 6th

Rushing Yards Allowed: 14th

Rushing TDs Allowed: 13th

Yards per Attempt: 27th

Starters included Aaron Kampman, Grady Jackson, Kabeer Gbaja-Bjamila, Al Harris, Darren Sharper, Nick Barnett...

 

[LordOpie]

I was a Bates fan from when he was with Miami, so I was excited to have him come to the Broncos.

Unfortunately, he proved that he's a one-trick pony that is incapable of adapting. It was obvious from pre-season that this defense was having trouble grasping his scheme and the fact that he ruined the season insisting on it really sucked.

There's no doubt that if he has the right personnel that he can work wonders, but a good coach needs to be able to adapt and play to the strengths of his players.

Good riddance.

 

[rascal]

According to cbs4 bates was offered the LB coach job but turned it down. Of course he did have you seen our LB's? We have a midget and moron starting at the OLB and and our ILB is more confused then Romney about his current position.

 

[mr. furley]

Yeah.The only thing is that I don't want Slowik as DC.Just digging up rankings from Slowik's 2004 season in GBoints Allowed: 23rdYards Allowed: 25th1st Downs Allowed: 23rd----------Passing Attempts: 20thPassing TDs Allowed: 32nd!!Passing Yards Allowed: 25thPasses Intercepted: 31stYards Per Attempt: 23rd---------Rushing Attempts: 6thRushing Yards Allowed: 14thRushing TDs Allowed: 13thYards per Attempt: 27thStarters included Aaron Kampman, Grady Jackson, Kabeer Gbaja-Bjamila, Al Harris, Darren Sharper, Nick Barnett...

sadly, the numbers don't tell the whole story. it was much worse than that.i have an email or three saved at work where players were quoted "off the record" saying that he was completely disorganized, not confident in his planning and would panic in-game.there were cases where he would practice one gameplan all week and then scrap it on saturday or in-game. that's just horrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible.

 

[Nomad]

sadly, the numbers don't tell the whole story.  it was much worse than that.i have an email or three saved at work where players were quoted "off the record" saying that he was completely disorganized, not confident in his planning and would panic in-game.there were cases where he would practice one gameplan all week and then scrap it on saturday or in-game.  that's just horrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible.

Regarding Slowik or Bates?I always thought Bates might make a good HC after his interrim stint in Miami and DC in GB.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Very popular scape goat.

He was not provided players to fit his system, nor the time to implement his system. The Head Coach and GM got cold feet and then instead of waiting for results decided to switch directions mid year. That guaranteed disaster, but set up the scape goat so that they could continue to hide their poor decisions. How long can one man live off of the Alex Gibbs' and Gary Kubiac's coaching and the good fortune of drafting a great running back in the 6th round. News flash, if Shanny was so smart and knew what he had he would not have risked letting Davis fall that far since he could have lost him. Clearly he would have been extraordinary value even in the third round. Nope, this was blind dumb luck all the way. His entire legacy is built upon dumb luck, Alex Gibbs, and lately it appears Gary Kubiac also.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Maybe Bates and Walker can get adjoining seats on their flight back to Green Bay. To bad their jobs are gone and their homes sold.

 

[moleculo]

Very popular scape goat.He was not provided players to fit his system, nor the time to implement his system. The head Coach and GM got cold feet and then instead of waiting for results decided to switch directions mid year. That guaranteed disaster but set up the scape goat so that they could continue to hide their poor decisions. How long can one man live off of the Alex Gibss coaching and the good fortune of drafting a great running back in the 6th round. News flash, if Shanny was so smart and knew what he had he would not have risked letting Davis fall that far. His entire legacy is builtupon Dumb luck, alex Gibbs, and lately it appears Gary Kubiac also.

Aren't the players for Bates' system a couple of fat-### DT's, speedy DE's lining up way outside, and CB's that can cover? That pretty much describes Simeon Rice, Sam Adams, Jarvis Moss, Marcus Thomas, Tim Crowder, and Dre Bly, no?I'm not saying that these guys were all that, I'm just trying to say that the D's collapse was certainly not about not getting players that fit Bates' system.Regarding Alex Gibbs - As I understand things, Shanahan had as much of a hand in developing the the zone blocking scheme as Gibbs. The Bronco's lack of success lately I think has more to do with catastrophic injuries on the OL preventing the cohesion and teamwork necessary to work at a high level.I don't really disagree with most of your other points though.

 

[SSOG]

Very popular scape goat.He was not provided players to fit his system, nor the time to implement his system. The Head Coach and GM got cold feet and then instead of waiting for results decided to switch directions mid year. That guaranteed disaster, but set up the scape goat so that they could continue to hide their poor decisions. How long can one man live off of the Alex Gibbs' and Gary Kubiac's coaching and the good fortune of drafting a great running back in the 6th round. News flash, if Shanny was so smart and knew what he had he would not have risked letting Davis fall that far since he could have lost him. Clearly he would have been extraordinary value even in the third round. Nope, this was blind dumb luck all the way. His entire legacy is built upon dumb luck, Alex Gibbs, and lately it appears Gary Kubiac also.

Scapegoat? Slowik's been coordinating the defense since the bye week. Oh, by the way, the defense improved dramatically following the bye week. When someone else is doing your job, and doing a much better job at it than you are, I don't think there's anything wrong with your boss asking you to take a demotion.Also, Alex Gibbs? Alex freaking Gibbs? How long are people going to keep bringing up Alex Gibbs? Gibbs hasn't been OLine coach in Denver since 2000 (or was it 2001?). The running game, in case you missed it, has been holding up its end of the bargain still (including finishing 9th in yards and 5th in yards per attempt this season despite catastrophic upheaval and only featuring a single guy who ever served under Alex Gibbs).

 

[Ghost Rider]

News flash, if Shanny was so smart and knew what he had he would not have risked letting Davis fall that far since he could have lost him. Clearly he would have been extraordinary value even in the third round. Nope, this was blind dumb luck all the way. His entire legacy is built upon dumb luck, Alex Gibbs, and lately it appears Gary Kubiac also.

I guess Belichick's entire legacy is built upon dumb luck, too, since he also lucked out when a 6th round pick (Tom Brady) did so well, right?

 

[rascal]

Very popular scape goat.He was not provided players to fit his system, nor the time to implement his system. The Head Coach and GM got cold feet and then instead of waiting for results decided to switch directions mid year. That guaranteed disaster, but set up the scape goat so that they could continue to hide their poor decisions. How long can one man live off of the Alex Gibbs' and Gary Kubiac's coaching and the good fortune of drafting a great running back in the 6th round. News flash, if Shanny was so smart and knew what he had he would not have risked letting Davis fall that far since he could have lost him. Clearly he would have been extraordinary value even in the third round. Nope, this was blind dumb luck all the way. His entire legacy is built upon dumb luck, Alex Gibbs, and lately it appears Gary Kubiac also.

Scapegoat? Slowik's been coordinating the defense since the bye week. Oh, by the way, the defense improved dramatically following the bye week. When someone else is doing your job, and doing a much better job at it than you are, I don't think there's anything wrong with your boss asking you to take a demotion.Also, Alex Gibbs? Alex freaking Gibbs? How long are people going to keep bringing up Alex Gibbs? Gibbs hasn't been OLine coach in Denver since 2000 (or was it 2001?). The running game, in case you missed it, has been holding up its end of the bargain still (including finishing 9th in yards and 5th in yards per attempt this season despite catastrophic upheaval and only featuring a single guy who ever served under Alex Gibbs).

I wouldn't use the word dramatically in that situation. Modestly would be a much better term and even then possibly overzealous.

 

[CanadianNFLJunkie]

News flash, if Shanny was so smart and knew what he had he would not have risked letting Davis fall that far since he could have lost him. Clearly he would have been extraordinary value even in the third round. Nope, this was blind dumb luck all the way. His entire legacy is built upon dumb luck, Alex Gibbs, and lately it appears Gary Kubiac also.

I guess Belichick's entire legacy is built upon dumb luck, too, since he also lucked out when a 6th round pick (Tom Brady) did so well, right?

I tend to disagree here. Just because Belichick who is known to be a pr*ck, makes him an unpopular guy, amongst the other coaches, especially after being 'caught' back in Week 1. He coached his team this year with a huge chip on his shoulder. I still think he's a great coach but Shanny? No.What I don't understand is why is there STILL so much love for Shanny? He's been a .500 coach since Mr. Elway retired. He has one of the best owners in football who gives him whatever he wants, yet Shanny still manages to screw things up. He's canned a bunch of DC's over the years as a scapegoat for his blunders. Why Shanny takes chances on bringing in over the hill, over-priced talent, with poor chemistry guys is beyond me. BUT being an objective NFL fan, in fairness to Bates, when they lost Wilson last year, that really hurt their LB'ing core. Moving DJ to the middle wasn't right and then Gold, who constantly overpursues, played poorly again this year. Bates' D is dissigned for the LB'ers to make the plays and they didn't do it. Also to throw in, Bly sucked and primadonna Bailey, aka the crystal goblet sucked and can't play hurt very well.

 

[moleculo]

News flash, if Shanny was so smart and knew what he had he would not have risked letting Davis fall that far since he could have lost him. Clearly he would have been extraordinary value even in the third round. Nope, this was blind dumb luck all the way. His entire legacy is built upon dumb luck, Alex Gibbs, and lately it appears Gary Kubiac also.

I guess Belichick's entire legacy is built upon dumb luck, too, since he also lucked out when a 6th round pick (Tom Brady) did so well, right?

I tend to disagree here. Just because Belichick who is known to be a pr*ck, makes him an unpopular guy, amongst the other coaches, especially after being 'caught' back in Week 1. He coached his team this year with a huge chip on his shoulder. I still think he's a great coach but Shanny? No.What I don't understand is why is there STILL so much love for Shanny? He's been a .500 coach since Mr. Elway retired. He has one of the best owners in football who gives him whatever he wants, yet Shanny still manages to screw things up. He's canned a bunch of DC's over the years as a scapegoat for his blunders. Why Shanny takes chances on bringing in over the hill, over-priced talent, with poor chemistry guys is beyond me. BUT being an objective NFL fan, in fairness to Bates, when they lost Wilson last year, that really hurt their LB'ing core. Moving DJ to the middle wasn't right and then Gold, who constantly overpursues, played poorly again this year. Bates' D is dissigned for the LB'ers to make the plays and they didn't do it. Also to throw in, Bly sucked and primadonna Bailey, aka the crystal goblet sucked and can't play hurt very well.

1. without elway, Shanahan is 83-61, including one trip to the AFCCG and 4 playoff seasons. That's not fantastic, but it's not terrible. Shanahan's offense has finished in the top 10 (in terms of points) 6x, and the defense has finished in the top 10 5x. The worst Shanahan has finished is 6-10, on a team marred by a SB hangover, a 1st year QB in Griese, anda season ending injury to TD.2. Shanahan's tenure has been marked by re-tooling every season. He has never stood still in free agency - he has always worked aggressively to make the team better. As far "as over the hill, over priced talent with poor chemistry" - well, that's pretty much what most free agents are. 3. I agree with you on the LB's.4. I don't know of many people who can play well when hurt - especially a position that requires soo much athleticism.

 

[SSOG]

News flash, if Shanny was so smart and knew what he had he would not have risked letting Davis fall that far since he could have lost him. Clearly he would have been extraordinary value even in the third round. Nope, this was blind dumb luck all the way. His entire legacy is built upon dumb luck, Alex Gibbs, and lately it appears Gary Kubiac also.

I guess Belichick's entire legacy is built upon dumb luck, too, since he also lucked out when a 6th round pick (Tom Brady) did so well, right?

I tend to disagree here. Just because Belichick who is known to be a pr*ck, makes him an unpopular guy, amongst the other coaches, especially after being 'caught' back in Week 1. He coached his team this year with a huge chip on his shoulder. I still think he's a great coach but Shanny? No.What I don't understand is why is there STILL so much love for Shanny? He's been a .500 coach since Mr. Elway retired. He has one of the best owners in football who gives him whatever he wants, yet Shanny still manages to screw things up. He's canned a bunch of DC's over the years as a scapegoat for his blunders. Why Shanny takes chances on bringing in over the hill, over-priced talent, with poor chemistry guys is beyond me. BUT being an objective NFL fan, in fairness to Bates, when they lost Wilson last year, that really hurt their LB'ing core. Moving DJ to the middle wasn't right and then Gold, who constantly overpursues, played poorly again this year. Bates' D is dissigned for the LB'ers to make the plays and they didn't do it. Also to throw in, Bly sucked and primadonna Bailey, aka the crystal goblet sucked and can't play hurt very well.

Where to start...Shanahan doesn't scapegoat defensive coordinators. Robinson was fired because he and Shanahan simply never liked each other. Rhodes resigned. Coyer was fired because his defense wasn't getting it done. Bates resigned because someone else was doing his job better than he was and he refused a demotion. Shanahan has actually been one of the most loyal coaches in the league when it comes to his staff.Coming into this season, the only franchises with more wins since 1999 than Denver were New England, Indy, Pittsburgh, and Philadelphia. Hardly sounds like the resume of a guy who's been a .500 coach since Mr. Elway retired.Why Shanny takes chances on bringing in over the hill free agents is because his preferred method of building a team revolves around a veteran core, and you don't get veterans through the draft. A lot of the signings wind up working out well (Lynch, Ferguson, Berry, Ekuban, etc), and the ones that don't generally didn't cost much (for all the talk of the Cleveland Brown D-Line, the entire line cost about as much as it would have cost to keep Hayward alone, and Ekuban, Myers, and Warren wound up justifying the cost easily). The "low-character" signings that you refer to are not over-the-hill players, they're mostly just Daryl Gardner and Maurice Clarett.Bates' D is based on the LBs *BEING FREE* to make plays, and the LBs this year simply weren't. The hole at DT was bigger than the hole at LB.Bly and Bailey both played very well this season, despite the complete disintigration of the defense around them. Until the final few weeks of the year, Football Outsiders' stats had Denver ranked #4 against opposing #1 WRs and #4 against opposing #2 WRs. Towards the end of the year they started mailing things in a bit more, but they more than held up their end of the bargain. In fact, I'd say that Bailey, Bly, and Dumervil were the only defensive players who weren't a total disappointment this year.

 

[SSOG]

Scapegoat? Slowik's been coordinating the defense since the bye week. Oh, by the way, the defense improved dramatically following the bye week. When someone else is doing your job, and doing a much better job at it than you are, I don't think there's anything wrong with your boss asking you to take a demotion.

This might be the most preposterous statement in the history of footballguys. SSOG, you are always throwing the stats from Football Outsiders in people's faces. Let's just see what the Football Outsiders stats say about the Broncos defense, shall we?The Broncos defense ranked 21st in DVOA. For "weighted DVOA" which "is adjusted so that earlier games in the season become gradually less important. It better reflects how the team was playing at the end of the season", the Broncos also finished 21st.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef.php

I don't know how you could say that the defense played dramatically better after the bye week. They were bad all year long.

What is particularly amusing, though, is that the Broncos defense was 12th in DVOA in 2006 and Shanahan fired that guy.

The most preposterous statement in the history of footballguys? Get a basic understanding of how the statistic works before making that claim. If you want to make that argument, weighted DVOA isn't the statistic you want to use to do so.

 

[mr. furley]

sadly, the numbers don't tell the whole story. it was much worse than that.i have an email or three saved at work where players were quoted "off the record" saying that he was completely disorganized, not confident in his planning and would panic in-game.there were cases where he would practice one gameplan all week and then scrap it on saturday or in-game. that's just horrrrrrrrrrrrrrrible.

Regarding Slowik or Bates?I always thought Bates might make a good HC after his interrim stint in Miami and DC in GB.

sorry.. i was talking about Slowik

 

[SSOG]

Dramatic improvement?The Broncos gave up an average of 27.2 ppg in the 5 games before the bye.They gave up an average of 24.8 ppg in the 11 games after the bye.

Since you're the one who brought up DVOA... Denver's defensive DVOA after week 5 was 14.2%, which ranked 27th. Denver's defensive DVOA after week 17 (not weighted DVOA, but season-long DVOA) was 6.3%, which ranked 21st (remember, negative = good with defensive DVOA). Had Denver's defense remained at 14.2% DVOA, they would have finished as the second-worst defense in the league. Also, remember that their final 6.3% DVOA took into account the 14.2% start to the season- the post-bye DVOA was probably closer to 2% or 3%.Maybe dramatic was a slight exaggeration, but there was a marked and very noticeable post-bye defensive improvement. I could find threads around here full of Denver fans discussing that improvement and its source, if you want. Slowik did better this year at Bates' job than Bates did.

 

[moleculo]

Slowik did better this year at Bates' job than Bates did.

that's not saying much, really. I'm not super thrilled about Slowik, but if this is a win-now team it's probably important for Shanahan to maintain some sort of continuity vs. tearing it all down and starting from scratch (again).

 

[Sabertooth]

This is not good for Broncos fans. I wouldn't wish Slowik on anybody but the Cowboys or Vikings.

 

[SSOG]

Slowik did better this year at Bates' job than Bates did.

that's not saying much, really. I'm not super thrilled about Slowik, but if this is a win-now team it's probably important for Shanahan to maintain some sort of continuity vs. tearing it all down and starting from scratch (again).

I'm actually kind of sad to see Bates go. I understand the reasoning for it, but I think Bates is a stud coordinator. I said before the season that I expected huge things from this defense, and I still think he could coach them to huge things. Then again, I'm not in the complex, I don't see the day-to-day routine, so I'm not really that qualified to say.I'm not that upset to see Slowik see the job, though. It's not like there's no history in the NFL of guys failing out their first time on the job and doing better their second time.

Why do you keep insisting that Slowick was doing Bates job? You have no evidence whatsoever to substantiate that claim.

You're wrong- just because you don't KNOW the evidence supporting that claim doesn't mean I don't have said evidence. It looks like the game threads were already purged, but there was quite a bit of discussion on this subject immediately following the bye. If you want something a bit more substantial than that, how about this?

The word from Dove Valley was that Jim Bates had a dental appointment Tuesday. It was not clear if this was a reference to his meeting with Mike Shanahan or in addition to it.

Not surprisingly, he was extracted from Shanahan's staff after declining a demotion from assistant head coach/defense to linebackers coach. He never made it to his first anniversary with the club.

It was your basic root canal. Apparently, no anesthetic was used, although Bates' succinct departure statement was gracious. When your defense finishes 28th in points allowed, there's not that much to say.

His departure leaves defensive coordinator Bob Slowik to actually coordinate the defense. Whether this turns out to be a good thing will no doubt depend on the quality of talent Slowik gets to coordinate, but his record in the position is not that inspiring.

He had the coordinator title for six years in Chicago and one each in Cleveland, Green Bay and Denver. I include the Denver year despite Bates' presence because Slowik's influence increased after the bye week, when the Broncos abandoned Bates' base scheme.

In the nine seasons that Slowik had the title of defensive coordinator, his defenses finished in the top 10 in points allowed twice - his first two seasons with the Bears, in 1993 and '94, when they ranked third and 10th.

In his last seven seasons as a coordinator, his teams ranked 22nd or worse in points allowed six times. His '99 Browns defense ranked 29th, allowing 437 points. His 2004 Packers defense ranked 23rd, allowing 380.

This season's Broncos defense, the joint Bates/Slowik production, surrendered 409 points.