Kraft...
Footballguy
IN before Larry corrects you<larry> You mean Ron Santos?</larry>
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Beisbol Hall of Fame (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter SofaKings
- Start date
Chemical X
Footballguy
considering that bruce sutter and rollie fingers are in the HOF, i am surprised gossage keeps missing.
seriously, gossage and fingers are pretty similar.
seriously, gossage and fingers are pretty similar.
Fingers won a Cy Young and MVP award...considering that bruce sutter and rollie fingers are in the HOF, i am surprised gossage keeps missing.seriously, gossage and fingers are pretty similar.
Last edited by a moderator:
On The Rocks
Footballguy
I agree the NFL is guilty as well...but would say the same thing about Baseball.I don't necessarily think that a guy who has played a long time and pads stats should be get special attention...or a lot of guys that happen to be on Championship teams get the nod. Don't ask me for names, because I would have to go back an look year by year...but for example...in baseball: Tony Perez, Kirby Puckett and in the NFL, Carl Eller and Dave Casper.Edit to add Lynn Swann for the NFL HOF. This guy in and Art Monk hanging out their like a beggar waiting for some crumbs is a disgrace.Not sure I agree with this. I have to give it up to baseball as you literally have to be a God to get in. The NFL lets in every Tom, Mike Munchak and Harry up for election...here in lies the problem. the Baseball HOF is so watered down with non-hall of fame talent, it became a mockery years ago. and i am a HUGE Tony Perez fan.Oh and Rice should be in, compare him to Tony Perez and it a no brainer.
Last edited by a moderator:
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Daddy, its an OUTRAGE that Lee Smith gets more votes than Blackjack Morris. I don't know that he's a hall of famer, but these guys weren't in the same universe pitching wise. 5 guys will pass Smith in the next 5 years.
Chemical X
Footballguy
strike shortened '81?Fingers won a Cy Young and MVP award...considering that bruce sutter and rollie fingers are in the HOF, i am surprised gossage keeps missing.seriously, gossage and fingers are pretty similar.
Still counts...strike shortened '81?Fingers won a Cy Young and MVP award...considering that bruce sutter and rollie fingers are in the HOF, i am surprised gossage keeps missing.seriously, gossage and fingers are pretty similar.
Giant Wooden Badger
the Beav
Blyleven and McGwire should be in.
Joe Sheehan at BPro has some good stuff about McGwire today. I agree with him.
Joe Sheehan at BPro has some good stuff about McGwire today. I agree with him.
whoknew
Footballguy
Why should a subjective award be valued?Still counts...strike shortened '81?Fingers won a Cy Young and MVP award...considering that bruce sutter and rollie fingers are in the HOF, i am surprised gossage keeps missing.seriously, gossage and fingers are pretty similar.
Chemical X
Footballguy
see gossage's fumbers that year? not too shabby........sub 1 ERA & WHIPStill counts...strike shortened '81?Fingers won a Cy Young and MVP award...considering that bruce sutter and rollie fingers are in the HOF, i am surprised gossage keeps missing.seriously, gossage and fingers are pretty similar.
oso diablo
Footballguy
it's well known that DC was an outstanding fielder, but that doesn't necessarily make him the best SS in MLB for a decade. Maybe for a few years in the mid-70s, but you soon have Yount & Ripken come along.
whoknew
Footballguy
Not to mention Ozzie Smith and Alan Trammell.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Are you kidding?1983 .309
1984 .351
1985 .317
1986 .329
1987 .370
1988 .313
1989 .336
1990 .309
1991 .317
1992 .317
1993 .358
1994 .394
1995 .368
1996 .353
1997 .372
1998 .321
1999 .338
You're right it was 17 years. Find me another player during that exact span that hit like that. TG racked up over 3,000 hits during this run as well. Give me a break...anyone that did not vote for him should be removed quickly from the balloting...this is part of the problem with the Baseball HOF...maybe football does take a few too many but Baseball is so elitist amongst the media it just gets sickening. Who would not vote for Gwynn?
Dave Baker
Damn glad to meet you
It's Ron Santo, and what does a third baseman have to do with Concepcion?
Urn
Footballguy
In 32 less innings...Plus Fingers BB/K was 13/61Gossage's was 14/48see gossage's fumbers that year? not too shabby........sub 1 ERA & WHIPStill counts...strike shortened '81?Fingers won a Cy Young and MVP award...considering that bruce sutter and rollie fingers are in the HOF, i am surprised gossage keeps missing.seriously, gossage and fingers are pretty similar.
Giant Wooden Badger
the Beav
He should certainly be in but the guy wasn't the best hitter. The best singles hitter, sure.Are you kidding?1983 .309
1984 .351
1985 .317
1986 .329
1987 .370
1988 .313
1989 .336
1990 .309
1991 .317
1992 .317
1993 .358
1994 .394
1995 .368
1996 .353
1997 .372
1998 .321
1999 .338
You're right it was 17 years. Find me another player during that exact span that hit like that. TG racked up over 3,000 hits during this run as well. Give me a break...anyone that did not vote for him should be removed quickly from the balloting...this is part of the problem with the Baseball HOF...maybe football does take a few too many but Baseball is so elitist amongst the media it just gets sickening. Who would not vote for Gwynn?
whoknew
Footballguy
He definitely hit for a high average and definitely should be in the HOF imo.Having said that, you said for 15 years he was the best hitter in baseball. I doubt he was the best hitter in baseball in any of those years (maybe 94, but he still only had the 4th best OPS in the NL that year).Are you kidding?1983 .309
1984 .351
1985 .317
1986 .329
1987 .370
1988 .313
1989 .336
1990 .309
1991 .317
1992 .317
1993 .358
1994 .394
1995 .368
1996 .353
1997 .372
1998 .321
1999 .338
You're right it was 17 years. Find me another player during that exact span that hit like that. TG racked up over 3,000 hits during this run as well. Give me a break...anyone that did not vote for him should be removed quickly from the balloting...this is part of the problem with the Baseball HOF...maybe football does take a few too many but Baseball is so elitist amongst the media it just gets sickening. Who would not vote for Gwynn?
Eephus
Footballguy
Santo(s) is the counter to the case that Concepcion deserves consideration for his numerous Gold Gloves. Santo has five GGs at the hot corner and was a far better offensive contributor than Concepcion. Yes, SS is a more difficult defensive position than 3B, but the best arguments for Concepcion are that Mazeroski is in, as well as almost every other member of the Big Red Machine.
Eephus
Footballguy
Fingers' MVP and CY awards for facing 297 batters in the strike shortened 81 season were both terribleIn 32 less innings...Plus Fingers BB/K was 13/61Gossage's was 14/48see gossage's fumbers that year? not too shabby........sub 1 ERA & WHIPStill counts...strike shortened '81?Fingers won a Cy Young and MVP award...considering that bruce sutter and rollie fingers are in the HOF, i am surprised gossage keeps missing.seriously, gossage and fingers are pretty similar.
Kraft...
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
What part of hitter is complicated? Need a hit, Gwynn was the guy. No one said he was a HR hitter...OK and I didn't say the greatest of all time. There were lots before him that were great indeed. I overlooked Wade Boggs but he has a very nice .250 average in the middle of his tear on the league. Gwynn never fell below .300 and I think that is saying something pretty special. Not to mention how he was one of the nicest SOBs in Baseball.He should certainly be in but the guy wasn't the best hitter. The best singles hitter, sure.Are you kidding?1983 .309
1984 .351
1985 .317
1986 .329
1987 .370
1988 .313
1989 .336
1990 .309
1991 .317
1992 .317
1993 .358
1994 .394
1995 .368
1996 .353
1997 .372
1998 .321
1999 .338
You're right it was 17 years. Find me another player during that exact span that hit like that. TG racked up over 3,000 hits during this run as well. Give me a break...anyone that did not vote for him should be removed quickly from the balloting...this is part of the problem with the Baseball HOF...maybe football does take a few too many but Baseball is so elitist amongst the media it just gets sickening. Who would not vote for Gwynn?
whoknew
Footballguy
If your definition of best hitter is who was the most likely person to get a hit during this time, then yes, I reckon Gwynn has the highest career avg. of players during that time span.Its a curious definition of best hitter, though.What part of hitter is complicated? Need a hit, Gwynn was the guy. No one said he was a HR hitter...OK and I didn't say the greatest of all time. There were lots before him that were great indeed. I overlooked Wade Boggs but he has a very nice .250 average in the middle of his tear on the league. Gwynn never fell below .300 and I think that is saying something pretty special. Not to mention how he was one of the nicest SOBs in Baseball.He should certainly be in but the guy wasn't the best hitter. The best singles hitter, sure.Are you kidding?1983 .309
1984 .351
1985 .317
1986 .329
1987 .370
1988 .313
1989 .336
1990 .309
1991 .317
1992 .317
1993 .358
1994 .394
1995 .368
1996 .353
1997 .372
1998 .321
1999 .338
You're right it was 17 years. Find me another player during that exact span that hit like that. TG racked up over 3,000 hits during this run as well. Give me a break...anyone that did not vote for him should be removed quickly from the balloting...this is part of the problem with the Baseball HOF...maybe football does take a few too many but Baseball is so elitist amongst the media it just gets sickening. Who would not vote for Gwynn?
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
He hit .350 or better in 7 of those 17 seasons...find me another baseball player that hit .350 or better in 7 seasons during that era...I'm not trying to be funny or even a jerk. You guys probably know Baseball a whole heckuva lot better than me for sure. I just was always struck by the amount of times he hit for such a high average. What else do you measure a hitter by? I judge QBs quite a bit by their completion percentage...I understand there are other things to consider but it's a big part of it.I am not a Padres fan by any stretch...Dodgers fan in fact but I think anyone that did not vote for Gwynn should be removed from the voting process or at least explain why they would leave him off...I can't think of any.He definitely hit for a high average and definitely should be in the HOF imo.Having said that, you said for 15 years he was the best hitter in baseball. I doubt he was the best hitter in baseball in any of those years (maybe 94, but he still only had the 4th best OPS in the NL that year).Are you kidding?1983 .309
1984 .351
1985 .317
1986 .329
1987 .370
1988 .313
1989 .336
1990 .309
1991 .317
1992 .317
1993 .358
1994 .394
1995 .368
1996 .353
1997 .372
1998 .321
1999 .338
You're right it was 17 years. Find me another player during that exact span that hit like that. TG racked up over 3,000 hits during this run as well. Give me a break...anyone that did not vote for him should be removed quickly from the balloting...this is part of the problem with the Baseball HOF...maybe football does take a few too many but Baseball is so elitist amongst the media it just gets sickening. Who would not vote for Gwynn?
Thunderlips
Footballguy
What part of hitter is complicated? Need a hit, Gwynn was the guy. No one said he was a HR hitter...OK and I didn't say the greatest of all time. There were lots before him that were great indeed. I overlooked Wade Boggs but he has a very nice .250 average in the middle of his tear on the league. Gwynn never fell below .300 and I think that is saying something pretty special. Not to mention how he was one of the nicest SOBs in Baseball.He should certainly be in but the guy wasn't the best hitter. The best singles hitter, sure.Are you kidding?1983 .309
1984 .351
1985 .317
1986 .329
1987 .370
1988 .313
1989 .336
1990 .309
1991 .317
1992 .317
1993 .358
1994 .394
1995 .368
1996 .353
1997 .372
1998 .321
1999 .338
You're right it was 17 years. Find me another player during that exact span that hit like that. TG racked up over 3,000 hits during this run as well. Give me a break...anyone that did not vote for him should be removed quickly from the balloting...this is part of the problem with the Baseball HOF...maybe football does take a few too many but Baseball is so elitist amongst the media it just gets sickening. Who would not vote for Gwynn?
I think that if you even remotely watched baseball during that timespan....Tony Gwynn was the best pure, consistent hitter.
whoknew
Footballguy
Again I fully acknowledge that (I think) Gwynn had the highest batting average of anyone during that time. And had I had a vote, I clearly would have voted for him.Having said that, BA is a pretty flawed measure of offensive value. For example, do you think Gwynn is more valuable than Pujols? Bonds? ARod? Bagwell?
whoknew
Footballguy
Ok what do you mean by "best hitter?"
the rover
Footballguy
Having been in San Diego for Gwynn's career, he was a great contact hitter and could hit for average like no other.
He was also overrated, selfish, and put his average above driving in runs, which he was certainly capable of doing. Despite his gaudy BA, his career OPS was unimpressive (below Danny Tartabull) and he only scored 100 runs twice (never after 1987) and drove in 100 runs a single time in his entire career.
Especially once he got fat and lost all of his speed, those slap singles just resulted in him clogging up the bases. In fact, he's also top 20 in the history of MLB in grounding into double plays.
In a game where you have to score runs to win, Gwynn wasn't all that valuable a player.
Nice guy, good hitter, extremely overrated.
He was also overrated, selfish, and put his average above driving in runs, which he was certainly capable of doing. Despite his gaudy BA, his career OPS was unimpressive (below Danny Tartabull) and he only scored 100 runs twice (never after 1987) and drove in 100 runs a single time in his entire career.
Especially once he got fat and lost all of his speed, those slap singles just resulted in him clogging up the bases. In fact, he's also top 20 in the history of MLB in grounding into double plays.
In a game where you have to score runs to win, Gwynn wasn't all that valuable a player.
Nice guy, good hitter, extremely overrated.
Last edited by a moderator:
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Boggs hit .300 15 times and had a .328 career average and a career .858 OPS. Gwynn hit .300 in 19 of 20 seasons and ended with a .338 career average and a career OPS of .847. IMO, these two are pretty comparible. Boggs walked a fair amount more, but other than that they were similar in their primes.What part of hitter is complicated? Need a hit, Gwynn was the guy. No one said he was a HR hitter...OK and I didn't say the greatest of all time. There were lots before him that were great indeed. I overlooked Wade Boggs but he has a very nice .250 average in the middle of his tear on the league. Gwynn never fell below .300 and I think that is saying something pretty special. Not to mention how he was one of the nicest SOBs in Baseball.He should certainly be in but the guy wasn't the best hitter. The best singles hitter, sure.Are you kidding?1983 .309
1984 .351
1985 .317
1986 .329
1987 .370
1988 .313
1989 .336
1990 .309
1991 .317
1992 .317
1993 .358
1994 .394
1995 .368
1996 .353
1997 .372
1998 .321
1999 .338
You're right it was 17 years. Find me another player during that exact span that hit like that. TG racked up over 3,000 hits during this run as well. Give me a break...anyone that did not vote for him should be removed quickly from the balloting...this is part of the problem with the Baseball HOF...maybe football does take a few too many but Baseball is so elitist amongst the media it just gets sickening. Who would not vote for Gwynn?I think that if you even remotely watched baseball during that timespan....Tony Gwynn was the best pure, consistent hitter.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Being able to put Bat on the ball for a basehit Daddy.You could argue Boggs over a much shorter period, and the only other one in the discussion is Molitor, who's averages just don't stack up with Tony. But he did put up 3000 with a bit more pop. It's realy silly debates, personally I take Boggs 1983-1989, but thats some pretty lofty company. Otherwise, Tony G is your man.Ok what do you mean by "best hitter?"
Boggs played in a hitters park, and on some very good offensive teams.When he was younger, Gwynn had great speed and stolen base ability. I'm a Red Sox fan, but I think Gwynn was way better than Boggs. And Rice got jobbed, again. ####### hall of famer bull#### voters.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Pujols? NopeARod? No, but ARod has yet to come up big in post season...Bonds? Bonds before steroids was expendable...during steroids he took the whole team on his back. Bagwell? I'll start with Gwynn.Pujols wasn't really in his era...ARod more towards the end of Gwynn's era. Understand that when TG was plaing a lot during the 80's and early 90s...30-40 HR was the most people usually hit in the MLB. Gwynn might not be as valuable at the moment because a lot of teams load up 4-5 30+ HR guys on the #2-7 spots in the batting rotation...they are looking for power.He had 3,000 hits in the span I mentioned...HITS! They then break down the 2B and 3B...for example without even looking I bet Paul Molitor who had 3,000+ hits has a lot more 2B over his career...but his BA is riddled with seasons where he only hit .275 or so. We both agree he deserves to be in the HoF, we just disagree how great he really was. SD was one of he worst organization in the last couple of decades and he suffered from not getting to play in many post season games. Had Gwynn been on a high profile team like the Red Sox, Yankees, he would have been more revered IMO.
whoknew
Footballguy
Right. So basically whoever has the highest BA is -- in your opinion -- the "best hitter." Like I said, that's a curious definition, but whatever makes you happy, sonny.Being able to put Bat on the ball for a basehit Daddy.You could argue Boggs over a much shorter period, and the only other one in the discussion is Molitor, who's averages just don't stack up with Tony. But he did put up 3000 with a bit more pop. It's realy silly debates, personally I take Boggs 1983-1989, but thats some pretty lofty company. Otherwise, Tony G is your man.Ok what do you mean by "best hitter?"
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Nice take, good stats.I would simply add that I can't think of really anyone in the other parts of the order that were all that great. Was Caminiti a Padre for a long period of time? I don't know the answer off the top of my head but I bet the rest of SD was pretty lousy. He wasn't clogging the bases, no one else could hit on the team IMO.
Last edited by a moderator:
the rover
Footballguy
Maybe having their star player refuse to sacrifice BA for RBIs, or even to attempt to stay in shape, contributed to their inability to get to the postseason.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Seeing how Gywnn had a lifetime post-season average of .306. never won a World Series, I'm not sure we can knock A-Rod at this point.
scoobygang
Footballguy
Whether you think he should have made it or not, having McGwire finish with just 3 more votes than Tommy John is outrageous.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
I know he wasn't the model of fitness, but babe Ruth was never in shape either. Maybe he could have hit 1,000 HR if he was in shape. I'm kidding, not comparing TG to the Babe, honestly.I think SD has been run pretty much awful for a long time. I don't think SD fans would refute this but I am certainly willing to listen or read about it. Did SD have any All Star pitchers that were on the team for 8-12 seasons during TG's era. From 1983-1999, what other padre made a tremendous difference taking the mound every 5th day or batting behind TG? Trevor hoffman is one heckuva closer but that isn't going to win championships on it's own.
B Maverick
Footballguy
but 583 Hrs is a first ballot winner.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Baseball writers are simply sending a message that folks are not getting in 1st ballot for inflated numbers. It will not surprise me if Bonds doesn't make it in 1st ballot now too. They want to send a message, right or wrong, and McGwire is proof. I don't think it is outrageous. Look at Big mac' numbers...he sort of started hot...trailed off, then ballooned back up to a muscle freak and started hitting ding dongs again all over the place...his BA was suxor, you are only putting him in based on HR and he didn't even make it to 600.They should shut down the HoF voting till Dale Murphy gets in anyways.
whoknew
Footballguy
Its not just HR (which are extremely valuable, obviously) -- he also walked enough that his career OBP is almost .400 and he lead the league twice. He's a HOF.Oh and by the way, andro was completely acceptable in MLB when Mac played. Oh and we have no direct evidence that Mac took steroids. Oh and MLB had no official policy on steroids when Mac played.Baseball writers are simply sending a message that folks are not getting in 1st ballot for inflated numbers. It will not surprise me if Bonds doesn't make it in 1st ballot now too. They want to send a message, right or wrong, and McGwire is proof. I don't think it is outrageous. Look at Big mac' numbers...he sort of started hot...trailed off, then ballooned back up to a muscle freak and started hitting ding dongs again all over the place...his BA was suxor, you are only putting him in based on HR and he didn't even make it to 600.They should shut down the HoF voting till Dale Murphy gets in anyways.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
OK, but if I show a photo of MM in 1987, then another in 1997...do you see a difference? Is OJ innocent too?Its not just HR (which are extremely valuable, obviously) -- he also walked enough that his career OBP is almost .400 and he lead the league twice. He's a HOF.Oh and by the way, andro was completely acceptable in MLB when Mac played. Oh and we have no direct evidence that Mac took steroids. Oh and MLB had no official policy on steroids when Mac played.Baseball writers are simply sending a message that folks are not getting in 1st ballot for inflated numbers. It will not surprise me if Bonds doesn't make it in 1st ballot now too. They want to send a message, right or wrong, and McGwire is proof. I don't think it is outrageous. Look at Big mac' numbers...he sort of started hot...trailed off, then ballooned back up to a muscle freak and started hitting ding dongs again all over the place...his BA was suxor, you are only putting him in based on HR and he didn't even make it to 600.They should shut down the HoF voting till Dale Murphy gets in anyways.
Vladislav Tretiak
Footballguy
That's it!
I'm done with these discussions!
Break out the Strat-o-Matic and let's play some baseball.
Oh look, a 4-4 N-HR
Andre Dawson just went yard!
I'm done with these discussions!
Break out the Strat-o-Matic and let's play some baseball.
Oh look, a 4-4 N-HR
Andre Dawson just went yard!
whoknew
Footballguy
Of course there's a difference. He's much bigger. But if a sportswriter isn't voting for Mac because he suspects that he used steroids, then why vote for anyone? Who is the sportswriter to say that Mac used and Ripken didn't? Or Clemens didn't? And why does the sportswriter want to police the MLB for substances for which MLB didn't find important enough to police? If the MLB said he's eligible, why would a sportswriter think he shouldn't be?And what's the difference between andro, steroids and other supplements, a good diet, working out, ACL surgery, Tommy John surgery, scientific body analysis, etc?OK, but if I show a photo of MM in 1987, then another in 1997...do you see a difference? Is OJ innocent too?Its not just HR (which are extremely valuable, obviously) -- he also walked enough that his career OBP is almost .400 and he lead the league twice. He's a HOF.Oh and by the way, andro was completely acceptable in MLB when Mac played. Oh and we have no direct evidence that Mac took steroids. Oh and MLB had no official policy on steroids when Mac played.Baseball writers are simply sending a message that folks are not getting in 1st ballot for inflated numbers. It will not surprise me if Bonds doesn't make it in 1st ballot now too. They want to send a message, right or wrong, and McGwire is proof. I don't think it is outrageous. Look at Big mac' numbers...he sort of started hot...trailed off, then ballooned back up to a muscle freak and started hitting ding dongs again all over the place...his BA was suxor, you are only putting him in based on HR and he didn't even make it to 600.They should shut down the HoF voting till Dale Murphy gets in anyways.
whoknew
Footballguy
APBA was better.
the rover
Footballguy
This was actually the take from at least one of the voting writers. He simply submitted an empty ballot, claiming he can't vote for anyone because of the steroid question.Of course there's a difference. He's much bigger. But if a sportswriter isn't voting for Mac because he suspects that he used steroids, then why vote for anyone? Who is the sportswriter to say that Mac used and Ripken didn't? Or Clemens didn't?OK, but if I show a photo of MM in 1987, then another in 1997...do you see a difference? Is OJ innocent too?Its not just HR (which are extremely valuable, obviously) -- he also walked enough that his career OBP is almost .400 and he lead the league twice. He's a HOF.Oh and by the way, andro was completely acceptable in MLB when Mac played. Oh and we have no direct evidence that Mac took steroids. Oh and MLB had no official policy on steroids when Mac played.Baseball writers are simply sending a message that folks are not getting in 1st ballot for inflated numbers. It will not surprise me if Bonds doesn't make it in 1st ballot now too. They want to send a message, right or wrong, and McGwire is proof. I don't think it is outrageous. Look at Big mac' numbers...he sort of started hot...trailed off, then ballooned back up to a muscle freak and started hitting ding dongs again all over the place...his BA was suxor, you are only putting him in based on HR and he didn't even make it to 600.
They should shut down the HoF voting till Dale Murphy gets in anyways.
And why does the sportswriter want to police the MLB for substances for which MLB didn't find important enough to police? If the MLB said he's eligible, why would a sportswriter think he shouldn't be?
And what's the difference between andro, steroids and other supplements, a good diet, working out, ACL surgery, Tommy John surgery, scientific body analysis, etc?
Vladislav Tretiak
Footballguy
Dynasty League Baseball (Pursue the Pennant) was better then both of them
whoknew
Footballguy
I saw that. Moron.This was actually the take from at least one of the voting writers. He simply submitted an empty ballot, claiming he can't vote for anyone because of the steroid question.Of course there's a difference. He's much bigger. But if a sportswriter isn't voting for Mac because he suspects that he used steroids, then why vote for anyone? Who is the sportswriter to say that Mac used and Ripken didn't? Or Clemens didn't?OK, but if I show a photo of MM in 1987, then another in 1997...do you see a difference? Is OJ innocent too?Its not just HR (which are extremely valuable, obviously) -- he also walked enough that his career OBP is almost .400 and he lead the league twice. He's a HOF.Oh and by the way, andro was completely acceptable in MLB when Mac played. Oh and we have no direct evidence that Mac took steroids. Oh and MLB had no official policy on steroids when Mac played.Baseball writers are simply sending a message that folks are not getting in 1st ballot for inflated numbers. It will not surprise me if Bonds doesn't make it in 1st ballot now too. They want to send a message, right or wrong, and McGwire is proof. I don't think it is outrageous. Look at Big mac' numbers...he sort of started hot...trailed off, then ballooned back up to a muscle freak and started hitting ding dongs again all over the place...his BA was suxor, you are only putting him in based on HR and he didn't even make it to 600.
They should shut down the HoF voting till Dale Murphy gets in anyways.
And why does the sportswriter want to police the MLB for substances for which MLB didn't find important enough to police? If the MLB said he's eligible, why would a sportswriter think he shouldn't be?
And what's the difference between andro, steroids and other supplements, a good diet, working out, ACL surgery, Tommy John surgery, scientific body analysis, etc?
Vladislav Tretiak
Footballguy
Actually, I never played APBAHow much better then Start was it?
whoknew
Footballguy
Frostillicus
Footballguy
Similar threads
