Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
You asked me refute someone else's fear mongering claim. No thanks. Onus isn't on me to prove to you that spreading out vaccines does NOT cause a public health safety risk. Nice try.
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Betsy Devos....probably going to need her own thread. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Sabertooth
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Skoo
Footballguy
Pretty sure you claiming that vaccines have "toxic amounts of mercury" is what he was referring to.
Sand
Footballguy
The student loan bubble may be the biggest item that Betsy has to face.
The DOE, just coincidentally 2 days before the end of this administration, just found a "glitch" (IMO, systematically falsified huge swaths of data) that shows the student loan repayment rate is pretty horrific, much worse than has been reported earlier. This is a trainwreck of the highest order and placed a nice crap sandwich on Trump's desk.
The DOE, just coincidentally 2 days before the end of this administration, just found a "glitch" (IMO, systematically falsified huge swaths of data) that shows the student loan repayment rate is pretty horrific, much worse than has been reported earlier. This is a trainwreck of the highest order and placed a nice crap sandwich on Trump's desk.
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
Yeah, OK. When you have all home schooled children across the board taking the same standardized testing that public school students take, then we'll have some actual data. Until then, we have nothing that wasn't created with an agenda in mind. So... nothing.
culdeus
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Ummm...not really. Joe (I believe) asked you to back up your claim about toxic levels of mercury ( your own fear monger claim).
i asked if you believed not vaccinating children would be a public health issue and took issue with your use of your go to laughing guy rather than trying to actually respond to a post that made a good point.
and yes...the onus is on those who wish to fight requiring vaccination to prove that they are not putting kids at risk (they actually are)
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Sweet J
Footballguy
I really don't know why this is that hard, for either the libs or the conservatives. It is important to provide a good public education because an educated populace is good for the country. I know you conservatives hate all things government (until you don't), but "free market principals" really don't apply where we have something that is truly a public function. I don't want "competition" I want the government to get public schools right. If they don't, they don't. If this country can't get something as important as education of our future right, then f^ck it, let's pack our stuff up, turn the lights off, and let the chinese in to use our resources better, because obviously we can't.
Now, we can care about something as important as providing exceptional public education, but STILL allow our citizens to educate their own kids any damn way that see fit. Until that is proven to be a problem for our society (i.e., data showing we are raising a population of idiots), then I'm all for letting as many families as they want to educate their kids any way they want.
TL;DR: Public School good. Available home schooling without government meddling good.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Nope that wasn't his first response to me. There's plenty online talking about toxicity of mercury including effects it can have on a baby. Plenty of doctors will talk about it too. I'm not here to prove to you or anyone else if it's too much for your child. We decided to spread out vaccines after we did our research. Anyone is fine to disagree and vaccinate their child as they choose as far as I'm concerned.
Even your criticisms of the studies are false. These are not all small studies. These are looking at thousands of kids from all different kinds of backgrounds and race taking the exact same tests in many cases. Just because you are an educator, you are stuck in your biases and can not admit basic facts.
Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Do you think that the government should mandate a curriculum for families that choose to home school? Or is it OK for parents to teach their kids whatever the parents believe is most appropriate?
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2015/02/01/anti-vaccine-movement-causes-worst-measles-epidemic-in-20-years/
And there are plenty more stories and studies like this.
as expected from you...ignore all else that is posted and the statements made...and post your little smile guy when you have people disagreeing with your bs
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Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
joffer
Footballguy
Sweet J
Footballguy
I'm kind of on the fence about this. I get caught between "we have to mandate what is best for you because it serves the public interest for us to do so," and "you should have the freedom to screw up your own life and that of your families as you see fit."
The analogy here, I guess, is laws mandating seat belts. If people want to put their lives in danger stupidly, then they should be allowed to. Unless doing so would put an unacceptable strain on the public. So you balance the oppressiveness of the regulation (an barely uncomfortable strap) vs. the public harm (the public picking up the tap for health care costs).
Hopefully you see what I'm getting at.
So, I don't really love the idea of mandating a curriculum. But I do understand giving guidance. Educating our children is an important function of our government. Because it is good for our country as a whole. If "providing a structure and guidance to parents who want to home school" is part of "educating our populace," than sure, provide all sorts of support. Maybe it's even cheaper in the long run.
Anyway, that's my off-the-top-of-my-head take. I'm willing to see other points of view.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
My BS? You're so interested in trolling and humping tanners leg that you can't read. I never claimed to be anti vaccine. I spaced them out. Big difference chief.
Take your measles outbreak to doctors. I had several tell me spacing them out was more than fine. Hell several said they weren't even necessary. Your whole world is black or white and you're too ignorant most of the time to see the middle.
Sorry no longer taking your troll bait either. I'll stick to
when you troll.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Nice word twist again. Thought you were leaving election night? Or was that another of your long list of temper tantrums?
The Football Freak
Footballguy
Here's a good write-up by the CDC on mercury in vaccines. Reading between the lines of what you're saying, I feel you may be working from old or outdated information. I'm not trying to pile on, because as far as I can tell you did get your kids vaccinated, so your personal beliefs aren't harming anyone as long as that stays the case.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/patient-ed/conversations/downloads/vacsafe-thimerosal-color-office.pdf
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
You've posted one article that referenced one study in this discussion. The total number of home schooled students looked at in that study? 76.
There is a ton of information out there, both for and against home schooling. It's all garbage, because it hasn't been systematically and broadly studied. I'm not going to waste my time (or anyone else's) by cherry-picking negative data points and posting them to rebut your cherry-picked positive ones.
Sweet J
Footballguy
Also want to add one more thing: We can only protect ourselves from ourselves so much. Meaning, if parents want to completely screw up our kids' lives (believing 9-11 was an inside job, we didn't land on the moon, aliens are all around us, photographs and blood transfusions steal your soul, whatever), we kind of have to let them. We just don't have the resources to make sure everyone is doing things "right." Mandating an education curriculum falls somewhere on the scale. I mean you can "mandate" that a parent teaches his kid that 2 plus 2 equals 4, but you can't mandate that a parent teaches a kid that Greek Gods are fictional -- it's all a little silly if you really think about it.
sho nuff
Footballguy
WTF? Trolling and humping Tanner's leg? You make crap like that...that is BS yes.My BS? You're so interested in trolling and humping tanners leg that you can't read. I never claimed to be anti vaccine. I spaced them out. Big difference chief.
Take your measles outbreak to doctors. I had several tell me spacing them out was more than fine. Hell several said they weren't even necessary. Your whole world is black or white and you're too ignorant most of the time to see the middle.
Sorry no longer taking your troll bait either. I'll stick to
BS that its not a health risk to not vaccinate kids. Not being able to backup your claims about mercury.
Thats not trolling...its asking you to respond and back up what you are saying because I disagree.
You may not be anti vacc...but you stated you think it should be left up to parents. My point about the measels outbreak is that is where its a public health risk. That these anti vaxxers are putting my kid at risk.
But you want to sling insults...call others ignorant, and claim its everyone else trolling (when clearly your history here shows you do it as often...if not more than anyone here).
My post about your claims...not about you...wasn't calling your names or other crap...but this is your response (which is hardly unexpected). My bad for trying to have a reasonable discussion with you.
Joe Summer
Footballguy
I also spaced out my kid's vaccinations, because I had heard that if you did not space them out, you could get attacked by a bear. There's plenty of online talking about how bear attacks can affect a baby.
Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
I'd really like to know exactly what propaganda I'm supposed to be pushing. I think I may have failed.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
You win sho. White flag. I'm done with you. It's the same Schtick here and fftoday.
Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
How did I twist your words?
I did leave...but I came back. TADA!
Link to this list, please.
Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
You get that my response to Tanner did not reference your choice to "space out" vaccines, right? It specifically mentioned parents who don't vaccinate their children. We've had a long string of smileys and insults that maybe could have been avoided if you had actually read what was written.My BS? You're so interested in trolling and humping tanners leg that you can't read. I never claimed to be anti vaccine. I spaced them out. Big difference chief.
Take your measles outbreak to doctors. I had several tell me spacing them out was more than fine. Hell several said they weren't even necessary. Your whole world is black or white and you're too ignorant most of the time to see the middle.
Sorry no longer taking your troll bait either. I'll stick to
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
All the outrage and indignation would almost be cute if it weren't for the fact that it supports a system that has increasingly failed students.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Well, I sort of struggle with this issue myself.
I used to be pretty strident about the argument that parents shouldn't be able to mold their kid's education in such a way that it takes away the opportunity for the kid to live a different sort of life. My thinking on this was shaped during law school when I read about Wisconsin v. Yoder, a Supreme Court case where Amish parents argued for the right to pull their kids out of school after 8th grade. I felt pretty strongly that the government has an interest in forcing the kids to continue their education. Because even though you only need an 8th grade education to live the Amish lifestyle, maybe some of these kids would want to become engineers or astronauts or doctors or something, and it's almost impossible to do those things if your parents stop sending you to school at 13 years old.
As I've aged and thought about it, though, I'm not quite as certain of my position as I used to be. The way that I've raised my kids probably makes it impossible for them to pursue certain careers -- it's too late for them to be an athlete, or a classical musician, or a bunch of other stuff. It's impossible to raise a kid such that every single opportunity will forever remain open to her until she's old enough to decide what to do with her life. Maybe it's OK for parents to use their own judgment about what options will remain open to their kids. I don't know.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
This was a reply to sho.
And come on the first mention of not following govt vaccine orders made about 10 people lose their and attack. No discussion first and no smilies first. The smilies were responses to those attacks. Again it's why many don't attempt to engage in serious discussion here and everyone has their own Schtick. I'll go back to mine
sho nuff
Footballguy
So you follow me around to multiple sites? Or you post under different aliases to argue?
Its not schtick...I asked you to back up your claims...you then claim Im trolling. Seems like an odd response.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
Not really odd at all, this has been fairly common. There's a real communication problem between people of different ideologies right now. Don't assume he's acting in bad faith.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Reg Lllama of Brixton
Footballguy
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Hey I just wanted to say guys that I appreciate the length of this thread.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
It's a complicated enough program when the data is accurate. This "glitch" is not good at all.
Here is a peered-review published independent study citing numerous studies totaling 10 of thousands of students. Please don't waste your time. Keep that head buried deep in manure.
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Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
That is just a different presentation of the exact same study referenced in the article you copied earlier. It isn't anywhere near comprehensive -- it only looks at home schooled attendees of one college over a six year span.
I'd expect any home schooled student who went on to attend an accredited secular university to be waaaay ahead of the game vs. most home schooled children.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
How does U.S. homeschoolers’ academic performance compare with other students?
Evidence regarding this question has been fraught with controversy because most of the studies that have received widest attention have been interpreted to say something they do not and cannot. We simply can’t draw any conclusions about the academic performance of the “average homeschooler,” because none of the studies so often cited employ random samples representing the full range of homeschoolers.
For example, two large U.S. studies (Rudner, 1999; Ray, 2009) are frequently cited as definitive evidence that homeschoolers academically outperform public and private school students. But in both cases, the homeschool participants were volunteers responding to an invitation by the nation’s most prominent advocacy organization to contribute test scores (on tests usually administered by parents in the child’s own home). The demographics of these samples were far whiter, more religious, more married, better educated, and wealthier than national averages. And yet these test score results were compared to average public school scores that included children from all income levels and family backgrounds. Not surprisingly, wealthy homeschoolers from stable two-parent families who take tests administered by their parents in the comfort of their own homes outscore the average public school child by large margins.
The simple fact is that no studies of academic achievement exist that draw from a representative, nationwide sample of homeschoolers and control for background variables like socio-economic or marital status. It is thus impossible to say whether or not homeschooling as such has any impact on the sort of academic achievement measured by standardized tests.
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
Lion is the one that said homeschool is an inferior education. He can't back that up with anything. No one is trying to claim it's superior. It's different and kids can thrive in either environment. Only lion claimed one was inferior and even double downed saying they lacked social skills too.
whoknew
Footballguy
I asked you multiple times if there was any science backing up your position. You didn't respond.
Doesn't seem like discussion was something you were interested in.
The Commish
Footballguy
This is quite the change in tone in just a few pages. It's not nearly as fun when it's anecdote vs anecdote. I thought you had some info I was unaware of
Coeur de Lion
Footballguy
I can back that up, as mentioned earlier, with decades of experience (both mine and that of friends and family members) working with formerly home schooled students and their families. The vast majority of experienced educators will agree with me on this. Balanced against this, we have a handful of studies run by organizations advocating for home schooling.
Do some research on the reasons why people choose to home school their children. What do you think that says about the quality of education that they receive?
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
I've explained my beliefs several times today and how they were formed. No I didn't say I was looking for discussion I just made a generic comment about vaccines and had no idea so many people were close minded and would go nuts.
I didn't answer you the first time because you're choosing the reason (science) I have to justify myself with. No thanks. But I'll humor you with this. Is there science stating that mercury is toxic? Sure. The levels in vaccines are toxic? I don't know about science but science doesn't dictate everything to me. I think that's debatable depending on several factors including child's age, size, general health, etc...
Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
You discredit JonMx stats and replace with your handful of experiences. Lol
Link to vast majority of educators that agree with your stance?
I know several homeschool families and why they made the choice. One was because a special needs child. One was because of classroom size. Another because they want to control the curriculum. Many other reasons some I agree with and others I don't. But to each their own it's still an asinine comment to say homeschooled kids get an inferior education and miss out socially. Really asinine.
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