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Bibleguys - My Journey These Past Couple of Years (1 Viewer)

As for the superstition, you seem to have been aware of it, right?  You said earlier " Don't ancient and modern Jews refrain from uttering or reading the word? "

Yes they do.  As to where I got that from, I've read it many times.  Rather than provide a link, I'd encourage you to research that on your own.  I don't want to provide a link and then have it rejected based on the source.  I think if you research enough, you'll find the answer to that.  

My statement that "the reader can quickly get confused" is something I'm claiming on my own, both from personal experience and from my own logic.

When someone reads a bible that takes out the name of God, they instead see the name LORD, which isn't really a name it's a title.  So it's much easier to believe that LORD=Jesus.  On the other hand, if the words Yahweh or Jehovah are there as many times as they originally were when the bible was written, that really gives the scriptures a much different look.  All of a sudden a reader of the OT who has read the name Jehovah 7,000 times in the OT will find it much more difficult to believe that Jesus is Jehovah.  

No source for that, just my belief.  It makes sense if you think about it.
Ok I'll do that.

I do not consider superstition and reverence to be the same thing, at all.  You mentioned that the term was originally ubiquitous as a getting among Israelites until superstition took over, and I was wondering where you got that notion from.

As far as "Lord" being confusing I personally think that's a huge stretch.  I have never heard Jesus referred to by the term or title "Addonai", although as a Christian I certainly think it would apply.

Thanks for the response.

 
CE2 do you believe Messiah is only for the nation of Israel?  I'm kind of confused about the end game here. I get you are rediscovering the deeply Jewish/Semitic roots of NT theology that we've completely ignored in the Protestant church but I'm not sure if you have a fully-robed construct here of the people of God. 

I'm also several years removed from regular theological reading so...

 
I'm just not sure about this.  The circumcision issue in Acts 15 is what clinches it for me.  In this chapter, the brothers met to discuss whether circumcision was still required.  At the end, here is what they said:

"19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood"

So yes, the original issue was circumcision.  But in vs 20, the brothers are quite clearly talking about food as well.  So I'd say this verse is basically outlining the instructions for Gentiles (ie, all of us).

Now if someone decided that in their reading of the bible, they feel that the dietary restrictions of the OT still apply, I'd encourage them to be obedient and follow that, so CE if that's what you've decided, I think that's great.  I personally can't see how those laws still apply, so I don't see them as still having any meaning for me.  I think they were a protection against diseases for an ancient world that didn't have the ability to make foods safe, and so in a very literal and physical way, they were unclean.
He may correct me if I'm wrong, but I think CE is saying the dietary laws were still in effect for the Jews during that time (i.e. Jesus didn't abolish them).  The letter was to the gentiles, who were not under those laws/requirements... but were asked to refrain from those things you mentioned.  

 
He may correct me if I'm wrong, but I think CE is saying the dietary laws were still in effect for the Jews during that time (i.e. Jesus didn't abolish them).  The letter was to the gentiles, who were not under those laws/requirements... but were asked to refrain from those things you mentioned.  
If that's the case, my apologies for mis-understanding.  I thought CE had said earlier in the thread that he felt that they were still applicable today.  I need to go back and take a look at what he said.

 
Yeah, I'm not sure about that interpretation of the gentiles by CE.  Now the gentiles that Jesus spoke to may have been of Israelite origins.  But the Samaritans had mixed-up heritages and didn't keep themselves nearly as "pure" as the Jews did.  They mixed with the Assyrians and Babylonians, so I think it would be hard to make a definitive statement on them.

The gentiles of the rest of the NT were not primarily of the "lost 10 tribes".  The first gentile, Cornelius was Roman.  Paul went all over the Roman world at that time and the congregation spread far beyond Israel.  Just look at the books of the bible, (Ephesus, Colossae, Rome, Philippi, etc) and even at the congregations in Revelation.  
I've read and heard theories that Cornelius was indeed a descendant from one of the lost northern tribes of Israel.  It helps fit into the idea that Jesus went "only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 15).  Though the NT never says he was actually an Israelite.  I don't find the argument all that compelling.  

 
If that's the case, my apologies for mis-understanding.  I thought CE had said earlier in the thread that he felt that they were still applicable today.  I need to go back and take a look at what he said.
Hmm, I didn't see him say that.  I could be wrong.  But I didn't get the idea that CE thought those restrictions were still in effect for anyone other than the Jews.  

 
proninja said:
Thanks for clearing that up. What about the rest of the law? 
He may have missed this post, but I'm curious as well.  Does he believe the rest of the law is still in effect for the Jews?  Or as Paul says, were the laws abolished or removed by the actions on the cross?  

 
Hmm, I didn't see him say that.  I could be wrong.  But I didn't get the idea that CE thought those restrictions were still in effect for anyone other than the Jews.  
But if the primary framework of marriage/divorce/redemption is correct at divorce that covenant is dissolved , including stipulations of such I would imagine. 

I can't imagine CE would be upending his professional/spiritual world if that's the main takeaway. 

 
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Ok I'll do that.

I do not consider superstition and reverence to be the same thing, at all.  You mentioned that the term was originally ubiquitous as a getting among Israelites until superstition took over, and I was wondering where you got that notion from.

As far as "Lord" being confusing I personally think that's a huge stretch.  I have never heard Jesus referred to by the term or title "Addonai", although as a Christian I certainly think it would apply.

Thanks for the response.
The "superstition" statement has been stated in a number of places.  

As an example, http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/bsl/Library/BIBLES/AmrStnd/asv.pdf

You'll have to scroll down a little bit, but it's in the preface of the American Standard Bible of 1901.

It's quite possible that it started with "reverence" and ended up being "superstitious".  The Jews were no strangers to superstition, as Jesus pointed out time and time again.  They had  many laws and superstitions, and Jesus ridiculed them for it.  

Also, ripping God's name out of the bible, could in no way be seen as a reverent act?  To me, that's a pretty serious thing to do.

As for the LORD matter...I think it's pretty clear.

In the Greek Septuagint (Greek translation of the OT), YHWH was replaced with the word Kyrios (Greek word for Lord).  

So when you read Kyrios and come to associate that name with God, and when that same name is used to apply to Jesus at times, can you not see how that could be confusing?  And I'm not saying it's confusing to you or to a modern person, because you have a theology that has developed around it.  

But if YHWH had remained in the OT 7,000 times, would the trinity doctrine have ever developed?  I don't see how.  Again, this point is a matter of personal opinion though, and not one that we need to spend much time on.

 
I've read and heard theories that Cornelius was indeed a descendant from one of the lost northern tribes of Israel.  It helps fit into the idea that Jesus went "only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matt 15).  Though the NT never says he was actually an Israelite.  I don't find the argument all that compelling.  
Whether Cornelius was or wasn't, very quickly the message reached many people who weren't descendants of the northern tribes of Israel.

 
But if the primary framework of marriage/divorce/redemption is correct at divorce that covenant is disliked, including stipulations of such I would imagine. 

I can't imagine CE would be upending his professional/spiritual world if that's the main takeaway. 
I'm trying to understand what your first sentence is saying...  Are you saying when God "divorced" Israel, the covenant of Moses was no longer in effect or required?  

Incidentally, the idea that the death of the son of God was necessary in order to reunite a divorced bride to the groom, because of the law on OT divorce, seems contrived, imo.  I don't buy that part of the OP.  And I don't agree that the dried bones in Ezekiel 37 are about the joining of the Jews and the church of believers.  

 
CE, I want to encourage you challenging your preconceptions about Christianity, ecclesia and the bible by digging more into the Bible.   The church has always been an institution that is resistant to questioning and critical thinking even though the scriptures themselves encourage it.

And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.   Acts 17:11 (NLT)
And when we do so, we do it in prayerful humility of wanting to better know God and live him out so that we can be a blessing to all.

You are right that Christians as a whole and Evangelicals/Protestants in particular lack an understanding of the Old Testament.   I also agree that the relationship between God and his people (human, Israel, church) is couched in the language of marriage and divorce.   What is marriage?   It is the most sacred covenant that we make as humans to one another.   It is the image of God's relationship with us that we can most relate to.

In all the covenants God makes with man in the Bible, the first step is that of one of grace from God. Obedience comes secondary as a consequence of receiving grace and disobedience leads a breaking of that relationship.   My view is that both covenant theology and dispensationalism and many of these theological constructs are problematic in that their focus is on the law and how understand it in our present context.    But what we really need to see is that the law is a proxy for our relationship with God.   The law was how God wanted his people to be in relationship with Him and to represent Him.   Both OT law and NT rules are steeped in culture because we relate to God in our cultures and we cannot remove ourselves from our culture as much as we try.  

Those looking to covenant theology or dispensationalism are looking for simple answers to the difficult question of how should we relate to God in our culture.   They ask: which laws should we obey and which should we ignore and how do we do this today.   But that is the wrong question.   These are the things the Pharisees were concerned with and Jesus continually rebuked them for missing the point of the scriptures.   Jesus fulfilled the law.

Don’t misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.   Matthew 5:17-18 (NLT)
If you want to follow the Mosiac law, you have a person who is the fulfillment of that law to follow, someone who is better than the law, a more perfect representation of the purpose of the law, which is to be in relationship with God.

 
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I've read some of this thread, and it's frustrating to me. 

I know I am an atheist so my view on these issues won't matter to most of you, but why can't we all just focus on trying to love one another, to be kind and good, to treat each other with respect, to try to do the right thing? These are, IMO, the best lessons the Bible teaches, both Old and New Teatament. Why is the other stuff so important? 

 
I've read some of this thread, and it's frustrating to me. 

I know I am an atheist so my view on these issues won't matter to most of you, but why can't we all just focus on trying to love one another, to be kind and good, to treat each other with respect, to try to do the right thing? These are, IMO, the best lessons the Bible teaches, both Old and New Teatament. Why is the other stuff so important? 
What's wrong with a few people talking about how they view scripture?  No one said that anyone in this thread was in disagreement that loving one another and being kind to others isn't what's important.  

You appear to be trying to just shut this thread down with a blanket statement on the golden rule.  If it is frustrating to you that folks talk about contents of the Bible, then why even bother to post in it?  

 
What's wrong with a few people talking about how they view scripture?  No one said that anyone in this thread was in disagreement that loving one another and being kind to others isn't what's important.  

You appear to be trying to just shut this thread down with a blanket statement on the golden rule.  If it is frustrating to you that folks talk about contents of the Bible, then why even bother to post in it?  
I don't want to shut you down. That wasn't the source of my frustration. What's frustrating to me is that so many people concentrate PRIMARILY on other aspects of the Bible, such as God and salvation, when love and respect for each other should be the first and most important element. IMO. 

 
I've read some of this thread, and it's frustrating to me. 

I know I am an atheist so my view on these issues won't matter to most of you, but why can't we all just focus on trying to love one another, to be kind and good, to treat each other with respect, to try to do the right thing? These are, IMO, the best lessons the Bible teaches, both Old and New Teatament. Why is the other stuff so important? 
Paragraphs can be written on this, but i'll sum it up by saying this:

1.  It's not an either/or proposition.

2.  We don't get to decide which is more important than the other.  We are instructed to follow all the teachings as if they were equally important.

3.  To follow the teachings we have to understand the teachings to the best of our ability.

All this is important because it shows our desire to be in relationship with God which is what he wants.

 
I don't want to shut you down. That wasn't the source of my frustration. What's frustrating to me is that so many people concentrate PRIMARILY on other aspects of the Bible, such as God and salvation, when love and respect for each other should be the first and most important element. IMO. 
With all due respect, God and his provision of salvation is actually THE primary theme of Scripture.

You are a book guy IIRC. Imagine someone thinking it folly to discuss the primary theme of a great novel. Kind of arrogant and irrevelant. 

 
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I don't want to shut you down. That wasn't the source of my frustration. What's frustrating to me is that so many people concentrate PRIMARILY on other aspects of the Bible, such as God and salvation, when love and respect for each other should be the first and most important element. IMO. 
But everyone agrees that love and respect for each other are important.  They are among the greatest commandments according to Jesus.  It's the other stuff that people do not agree upon that make for interesting discussion.  It may not be interesting to you (or many others), but some people may like to talk about it.  This thread is for them.  I didn't start it.  CE wanted to voice his journey for the last few years in how he has come to move away from some of the standard teachings of the protestant churches of today.  I've known CE for a long time on this board and it is a different point of view than he's had in years past.  As such, I find his thoughts on the matter very interesting.  

 
proninja said:
It would make for a boring thread if we just talked about the stuff that there is near universal agreement on. Maybe that's why no one responded to my "sermon on the mount" post. 
Missed it...was there a question?  comment?  We just got through doing a summer series on the Beattitudes and the Sermon on the Mount in the middle/high school class I help teach.  I swear I learn more than the kids do :bag:   

 
With all due respect, God and his provision of salvation is actually THE primary theme of Scripture.

You are a book guy IIRC. Imagine someone thinking it folly to discuss the primary theme of a great novel. Kind of arrogant and irrevelant. 
Novels are for entertainment, and art. The Bible, which you and millions of others believe to be the truth, is something else entirely. It not only guides how you live your life, but it has a huge effect on how all of us live our lives. 

I have known atheists who believe that there are so many negative aspects of the Bible as to make it on the whole irredeemable. I have known Jews who reject the New Testament in its entirety because the salvation message is an immoral one (since essentially individuals are judged not on good works but on their acceptance of Jesus.) I am not one of these people. I think the Bible, both testaments, have a wonderful message which I stated above. I wish it was considered the most important message by everyone, that's all. 

 
I don't want to shut you down. That wasn't the source of my frustration. What's frustrating to me is that so many people concentrate PRIMARILY on other aspects of the Bible, such as God and salvation, when love and respect for each other should be the first and most important element. IMO. 
Well, according to Jesus, the two primary commandments are:

1.   Love God (Matt 22:37, Deut 6:5)

2.   Love Neighbor (Matt 22:39, Lev 19:18)

So, Jesus believed that love for God came before "love and respect for each other", but that doesn't mean that the 2nd commandment isn't important, because it obviously is.

Hopefully that helps.

 
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But everyone agrees that love and respect for each other are important.  They are among the greatest commandments according to Jesus.  It's the other stuff that people do not agree upon that make for interesting discussion.  It may not be interesting to you (or many others), but some people may like to talk about it.  This thread is for them.  I didn't start it.  CE wanted to voice his journey for the last few years in how he has come to move away from some of the standard teachings of the protestant churches of today.  I've known CE for a long time on this board and it is a different point of view than he's had in years past.  As such, I find his thoughts on the matter very interesting.  
It is interesting to me too. I wasn't trying to be dismissive. Interesting and frustrating are not necessarily contradictory terms. By all means carry on with the discussion; I was simply voicing my frustration with the apparent priorities involved. 

 
Well, according to Jesus, the two primary commandments are:

1.   Love God (Matt 22:37, Deut 6:5)

2.   Love Neighbor (Matt 22:39, Lev 19:18)

So, Jesus believed that love for God came before "love and respect for each other", but that doesn't mean that the 2nd commandment isn't important, because it obviously is.

Hopefully that helps.
Why does love God come before love neighbor? Why is it so important? 

 
It is interesting to me too. I wasn't trying to be dismissive. Interesting and frustrating are not necessarily contradictory terms. By all means carry on with the discussion; I was simply voicing my frustration with the apparent priorities involved. 
I think our priorities are different because you don't believe in God, and many of the people that are involved in this discussion do.  

 
Why does love God come before love neighbor? Why is it so important? 
Hard to explain to someone that thinks God doesn't exist.  If someone told me I needed to love the tooth fairy as much as my children, I'd think that was odd too.  Surely though, you can see the major difference in our perspectives?  My children, great food (odd that I put this so high on the list :lmao: ), the earth, the beauty we see, music, our minds, etc...all these things are amazing and were gifts from God.  It's about being thankful.  Since you don't think God did any of that, you're looking at it from a completely different perspective.  

 
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Hard to explain to someone that thinks God doesn't exist.  If someone told me I needed to love the tooth fairy as much as my children, I'd think that was odd too.  Surely though, you can see the major difference in our perspectives?  My children, great food (odd that I put this so high on the list :lmao:), the earth, the beauty we see, music, our minds, etc...all these things are amazing and were gifts from God.  It's about being thankful.  Since you don't think God did any of that, you're looking at it from a completely different perspective.  
Of course. But even so the priority makes no sense to me. 

I once told an orthodox rabbi that I did not believe in God, and he said that it didn't matter so long as I was a good person, that's what God cared about. Yet to a Christian, that is NOT what God cares about, at least not first. 

 
Of course. But even so the priority makes no sense to me. 

I once told an orthodox rabbi that I did not believe in God, and he said that it didn't matter so long as I was a good person, that's what God cared about. Yet to a Christian, that is NOT what God cares about, at least not first. 
Tim, I think we've hijacked the thread enough.  I already posted that Jesus said that loving your neighbor was the 2nd greatest commandment.  It goes hand in hand with loving God.  You're trying to create an issue that isn't there and in the process we're going off on a tangent that isn't necessary. 

 
Of course. But even so the priority makes no sense to me. 

I once told an orthodox rabbi that I did not believe in God, and he said that it didn't matter so long as I was a good person, that's what God cared about. Yet to a Christian, that is NOT what God cares about, at least not first. 
You should have told him that God made a stupid number of rules if all he cared about was being a good person.

 
Tim, I think we've hijacked the thread enough.  I already posted that Jesus said that loving your neighbor was the 2nd greatest commandment.  It goes hand in hand with loving God.  You're trying to create an issue that isn't there and in the process we're going off on a tangent that isn't necessary. 
Fair enough. I do think the issue is there and vital but I didn't mean to derail the thread, whatever anyone thinks. I've said my piece; carry on. 

 
Obeying or not obeying the law has consequences, even though it is not a salvation issue. Consider the words of Yahshua:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
How you interpret this passage is quite pivotal to your understanding of Biblical theology.

How does Jesus fulfill the Law?   What does it mean to relax these commands and to do and teach the commands?  How can our righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees?

You need to interpret this passage in the light of all the rest of his words about the law, pharisees and his purpose.   Is he telling us to be more like the Pharisees?   Is he telling us that following the law is to do so while ignoring the context?

Look at how Jesus interacts with the Pharisees whenever the law is brought up and you will see what he means.    He tears down the Pharisees' way of looking at the law as a means to look down on others, build up their pride and break relationships.  Instead he shows them how the law was intended to bring us closer to God and each other when practiced rightly.

 
I don't want to shut you down. That wasn't the source of my frustration. What's frustrating to me is that so many people concentrate PRIMARILY on other aspects of the Bible, such as God and salvation, when love and respect for each other should be the first and most important element. IMO. 
Timmy, let em stretch their velvet ropes against the heathens and play their game of Altars&Angels in peace. I am not an atheist and have even told a FFApper who has posted in this thread to go deeper into his faith when he asked me how to be happier, but most of these fellows are here for the same reason Christianity and Islam are the big2 now - the free pass to the Big Room and the chance to banish infidels ('specially if they can cut out a VIP section for themselves against their own kind). Doing your act here is like passing out abstinence pamphlets @ Spearmint Rhino.

 
I've read some of this thread, and it's frustrating to me. 

I know I am an atheist so my view on these issues won't matter to most of you, but why can't we all just focus on trying to love one another, to be kind and good, to treat each other with respect, to try to do the right thing? These are, IMO, the best lessons the Bible teaches, both Old and New Teatament. Why is the other stuff so important? 


Fair enough. I do think the issue is there and vital but I didn't mean to derail the thread, whatever anyone thinks. I've said my piece; carry on. 
I just want to point out that while you may be atheist (may be) I think the Jewish perspective is important here. CE is trying to tie in the OT & NT traditions, and someone could also be atheist and still have a perspective on that, especially if they have a religious background or even interest in the subject.

 
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Well holy cow if it isn't @Gold Dragon!  I don't venture into these threads all that often, so maybe I just missed that you were poking around again.  Either way, welcome back.  Good to see you.  How you been?

 
Psychopav said:
Well holy cow if it isn't @Gold Dragon!  I don't venture into these threads all that often, so maybe I just missed that you were poking around again.  Either way, welcome back.  Good to see you.  How you been?
G'day mate.   I've been back poking around these parts and posted in a few threads about Christianity and science over the past few months.  I don't have the time to dedicate that I used to.   But some of the best online discussions about faith I've seen are still here, from both the Christian and secular/atheist perspectives.   It can devolve quickly into the usual drivel but slower than your average online discussion.

 
proninja said:
The bible (John, in particular) tells us the following: "We love because he first loved us. If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother."

Loving others is *how* we love God. 

(And yes, I'm proof-texting without context here, but I have to go to work now. :)  )
That's certainly some interesting logic.

 
Yeah, I'm not sure about that interpretation of the gentiles by CE.  Now the gentiles that Jesus spoke to may have been of Israelite origins.  But the Samaritans had mixed-up heritages and didn't keep themselves nearly as "pure" as the Jews did.  They mixed with the Assyrians and Babylonians, so I think it would be hard to make a definitive statement on them.

The gentiles of the rest of the NT were not primarily of the "lost 10 tribes".  The first gentile, Cornelius was Roman.  Paul went all over the Roman world at that time and the congregation spread far beyond Israel.  Just look at the books of the bible, (Ephesus, Colossae, Rome, Philippi, etc) and even at the congregations in Revelation.  
You might be surprised, if you do the research and are wiling to think outside of what you've been taught. 

How Many Tribes?

 
Gold Dragon said:
How you interpret this passage is quite pivotal to your understanding of Biblical theology.

How does Jesus fulfill the Law?   What does it mean to relax these commands and to do and teach the commands?  How can our righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees?

You need to interpret this passage in the light of all the rest of his words about the law, pharisees and his purpose.   Is he telling us to be more like the Pharisees?   Is he telling us that following the law is to do so while ignoring the context?

Look at how Jesus interacts with the Pharisees whenever the law is brought up and you will see what he means.    He tears down the Pharisees' way of looking at the law as a means to look down on others, build up their pride and break relationships.  Instead he shows them how the law was intended to bring us closer to God and each other when practiced rightly.
One of Yahshua's big problems with the Pharisees wasn't in their keeping of the law, but rather their adding to the law. Even a cursory read of the OT reveals that God and His prophets considered the law to be good, liberating, and not burdensome. 

 
I'm just not sure about this.  The circumcision issue in Acts 15 is what clinches it for me.  In this chapter, the brothers met to discuss whether circumcision was still required.  At the end, here is what they said:

"19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood"

So yes, the original issue was circumcision.  But in vs 20, the brothers are quite clearly talking about food as well.  So I'd say this verse is basically outlining the instructions for Gentiles (ie, all of us).

Now if someone decided that in their reading of the bible, they feel that the dietary restrictions of the OT still apply, I'd encourage them to be obedient and follow that, so CE if that's what you've decided, I think that's great.  I personally can't see how those laws still apply, so I don't see them as still having any meaning for me.  I think they were a protection against diseases for an ancient world that didn't have the ability to make foods safe, and so in a very literal and physical way, they were unclean.
People always stop a verse or two short. 

Acts 15:21 - "For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

So the council basically decided to deal with the most pressing issues that new believers were dealing with in the society in which they lived. These were some of the practices of the day that they needed to immediately leave behind. The rest they would learn every Sabbath as they were taught Torah in the synagogues.

Think about it...was murder ok? Coveting? Stealing? Of course not. But they would be taught all of those things as they continually grew in their faith. 

 
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CE, I want to encourage you challenging your preconceptions about Christianity, ecclesia and the bible by digging more into the Bible.   The church has always been an institution that is resistant to questioning and critical thinking even though the scriptures themselves encourage it.

And when we do so, we do it in prayerful humility of wanting to better know God and live him out so that we can be a blessing to all.

You are right that Christians as a whole and Evangelicals/Protestants in particular lack an understanding of the Old Testament.   I also agree that the relationship between God and his people (human, Israel, church) is couched in the language of marriage and divorce.   What is marriage?   It is the most sacred covenant that we make as humans to one another.   It is the image of God's relationship with us that we can most relate to.

In all the covenants God makes with man in the Bible, the first step is that of one of grace from God. Obedience comes secondary as a consequence of receiving grace and disobedience leads a breaking of that relationship.   My view is that both covenant theology and dispensationalism and many of these theological constructs are problematic in that their focus is on the law and how understand it in our present context.    But what we really need to see is that the law is a proxy for our relationship with God.   The law was how God wanted his people to be in relationship with Him and to represent Him.   Both OT law and NT rules are steeped in culture because we relate to God in our cultures and we cannot remove ourselves from our culture as much as we try.  

Those looking to covenant theology or dispensationalism are looking for simple answers to the difficult question of how should we relate to God in our culture.   They ask: which laws should we obey and which should we ignore and how do we do this today.   But that is the wrong question.   These are the things the Pharisees were concerned with and Jesus continually rebuked them for missing the point of the scriptures.   Jesus fulfilled the law.

If you want to follow the Mosiac law, you have a person who is the fulfillment of that law to follow, someone who is better than the law, a more perfect representation of the purpose of the law, which is to be in relationship with God.
I think some of the struggle for many is with the term "law". Torah is most often translated "law" but could probably be better understood as "instruction". A perfect loving Father gave instructions to His children. Why are many of us so quick to want to do away with that instruction?

 
Where's that confounded goat?!
It has been foretold in Kiddediah4:20-  of your Baaaable that devoted goats will be called up to a never-ending grassland in the end times. It's called The Pasture. Lo, i say unto thee the end is niiiigh! Ye without cans are damned and doomed!

 
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This is from the "Reverend Know It All" website I mentioned earlier.  It is nut party of the 8 party series of posts to the Rabbi that I mentioned earlier, but gives a little insight into his perspective on the modern descendents - both blood and adoptive - of the Nation of Israel.

http://stlambert.org/news/what-have-you-got-against-jews

August 7, 2015
by Rev-Know-it-All

Friday, August 7, 2015

What have you got against Jews?


N.B. TO UNDERSTAND THIS YOU MUST KNOW THAT PHARISEE IS A NOBLE WORD. PHARISEES WERE AND REMAIN DEFENDERS OF THE TRUTHS OF JUDAISM IN A DIFFICULT AND HOSTILE WORLD.
Dear Rev. Know-it-all,
I just located your Father Know-it-all site. What’s with you and Jews? You talk about the decrease in the Jewish population of the Roman world, attributing it to conversion to Christianity, without mention of the two great Jewish rebellions which led to the death and expulsion of a large part of the Jewish population. This, of course, was followed by Christians obtaining political power with Constantine which wasn’t so good for Jews either. As I indicated in an earlier e-mail, I sense a pattern of unfavorable comments about Jews.
Yours,
Beth K. Nesset
Dear Beth,
Well, this is a first. I am usually criticized for being too semito-philic. What’s with me and the Jews? I think the Jews are very important to the culture, so I am always trying to fine tune my understanding of the history of a rather troubled relationship. I don’t know your ethnic and religious background, but would like to tell you a story.
I have a dear friend who is an ultra-orthodox rabbi. He likes me because I am orthodox, even if I’m not Jewish. His daughter was being married on a Sunday, and because I work Sundays, I couldn’t attend the wedding. So the rabbi invited me to Shabbos dinner to meet the in-laws. The groom’s uncle, a true Tsaddik, (righteous man) was there. He heads an anonymous charity for mothers in trouble. I was about to pour him a glass of wine, and I stopped myself because I realized that if it was yayin (wine) he couldn’t drink it if I had poured it. Were it mevushal, (cooked wine, or wine sweetened by a boiling process) it would be no problem if served by a gentile.
I said to the Tsaddik, “I don’t know if I can pour this for you. I have to see if it’s…”
He looked utterly flabbergasted and said, “I don’t know! I’ve never been in this situation before!!!”
He was astonished by the whole thing. He had never had a religious conversation with a gentile and certainly not with a galleck (Catholic Priest) and there we were, talking about the same things, righteousness, the nature of Messiah, the Scriptures and so on. He was amazed, and frankly so was I.
I realized that we were co-religionists. We did not share the same faith, but we did share the same religion. The moral and ethical concepts, the understanding we shared about much of the nature of the Almighty, even customs such as the washing of hands and the blessing of bread and wine, the prayers and psalms and chants, the hope of Messiah. We shared all these to some degree. We were playing in the same ball park, as it were.
What we did not share completely were faith and our understanding the nature of Torah (the Law). I regarded the whole Hebrew Scripture as fully inspired. He regarded Torah as preeminent, and of course he did not regard the New Testament as inspired at all, but was surprised to find that I do not consider the New Testament more inspired than Hebrew Scriptures. Talmud, along with Torah, was his whole life. Talmud is not mine though Old Testament – better called Hebrew Scriptures – most certainly is. His great trust is in Talmud and Torah. My trust is in Jesus of Nazareth, a Jew whom I believe to be the visible image of the invisible God, the Torah come to life! (c.f. St. Paul’s first letter to the Colossians, chapter one, verse 15)
Nonetheless, it was a transformative conversation for me. I realized that we were both claiming to be Israel. One cannot claim to be Israel without Moses and Mt. Sinai, but one cannot be a Jew without Talmud. I believe that my friends, the Tsaddik and the Rabbi, are doubtless Israel. They don’t believe that I am Israel, because I am not a Jew. In this, I think, they make a fundamental mistake. They claim, as I believe does Talmud, that the word “Jew” and the word Israel are interchangeable. I don’t think this claim can be made on the basis of Hebrew Scriptures. It is interesting that the word “Jew” or “Jews” (Yehud, Yehudim) really doesn’t appear in the Hebrew Scriptures very frequently. I think it is less than 100 times. The word Israel appears more than 2,000 times, 2575 times if the New Testament is included in the count. The word only refers to what we might think of as a Jew beginning with the second temple period, principally in the book of Esther, probably written in 350 BC about events that occurred in 470 BC, that is after the return of the exiles to Jerusalem. I maintain that Rabbinic Phariseeism, which is what we now call Judaism, really took hold of the religion of Israel in Babylon, the cultural center of the remnant of Israel after the devastation of the Holy land in 132 AD.  Remember, it’s the Babylonian Talmud that carries the most weight in Jewish life, not the Jerusalem Talmud. The Pharisee movement created an innovation in the religion of Israel that allowed one to practice a form of the religion of Israel when one could not go to the temple. This was an innovation.
I have a unique spin on the passage of Christian scripture in which Jesus talks about new wine skins and new patches on old garments.

    “No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old. No one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined, but new wine must be put into fresh wineskins, and no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined. New wine must be put into fresh wineskins. No one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old wine is mellow.” (Chrestos in Greek means “mellow” in this context)” Luke 5:38 

People assuming that Jesus’ innovations are the new wine, struggle with this final statement that “…old wine is mellow, better, good et alia.” Why would Jesus say that His innovations are not as good as the customs of the Pharisees and the disciples of John the Baptist? 
I maintain that He is saying the opposite. He is saying that Rabbinic Phariseeism is the innovation. As I mentioned, Rabbinic Phariseeism is a way to practice the religion of Israel without a temple. Jesus was saying that as Messiah he would fulfill the messianic expectation by rebuilding the temple at the same time transforming it into a temple made of living stones.  “You also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus the Messiah.” (1Peter 2:4)  
He would fulfill the Messianic expectation of the rebuilding and purifying the temple that had been profaned by the Syrian Greeks, the Hasmoneans who extended its space for military purposes and then by Herod the Great, who used it to aggrandize himself. He would, however, do so in a way unexpected. He would create a living temple, the church.  He thus claimed to be the fulfillment of the tradition of Israel. It was the Pharisees who were the innovation.  
My dear friend Rabbi Lefkowitz, an ultra-orthodox Rabbi, would howl at this interpretation, as would most Christians, but it was he who started my thinking about this, I’m sure to his chagrin. He once said, “You Christians have got it wrong. You are more Jewish than we are. You have temples and sacrifices. We believe that the temple and the sacrifices of the law were concessions to the Jews, lest they backslide into the practices of the Canaanites. The sacrificial order is not central to Judaism. It’s the moral and ethical content of the Torah that matters.”  To which I want to respond that the pages of the Hebrew Scriptures fairly drip with sacrificial blood?  
A second insight that pushed me in this direction came from Hershel Shanks, editor of the Biblical Archaeology Review, with whom Rabbi Lefkowitz thoroughly disagrees on this point. Shanks holds that two forms of Judaism survived the destruction of the temple, Christianity and Rabbinic Phariseeism. The Sadducees, the Zealots, the Essenes and the followers of John lost their reason for being with the destruction of the temple. Rabbinic Phariseeism, or what we now call Judaism, is a religion of the synagogue. It survives because the temple is optional, though desirable. 
Christianity is still the religion of the temple, though a spiritualized temple. Catholicism and eastern Orthodoxy still offer sacrifice. Protestantism is thus a deviant form of Christianity, a form of Phariseeism which holds that there is no more sacrifice and no need for further sacrifice. We, in the traditional forms of Christianity, maintain, as I believe Jesus did, that we are fulfilling, not changing Torah. The only way I would disagree with Hershel Shanks is instead of using the word Judaism to stand for the totality of Israel, I would say that two forms of the religion of Israel survived the destruction of the temple, Christianity and Judaism.
The best estimates for the Jewish population of the ancient Mediterranean world are about one or two million. The estimate of the Jews living in the Diaspora, (scattered communities) in the Roman world is perhaps 4 or 5 million more. 
Dr. Rodney Stark in his book The Rise of Christianity, points out that in a few centuries the Jewish population of the Roman Empire was greatly reduced to perhaps fewer than one million. Certainly many were killed in war or died in plague, but it is doubtful, that the majority of first century “Israel” would have perished. More likely they found in Christianity a kind of “reform” Judaism which allowed them to practice the religion of Israel, praying to the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob and reading the books of Moses, and the prophets, without the restrictions that made life so difficult in a diaspora, (a scattering) through the Greco Roman world, where circumcision was mocked as an obscenity and kosher meat was hard to find. 
The end of all this, is that there are two major representatives of the religion of Israel, two groups of people who reverence the books of Moses and the rest of the Tanakh, that is Hebrew scriptures, three if you count the 800 Samaritans who are still alive. The two are Christianity and Judaism, or more properly, Rabbinic Phariseeism. To say that Christianity comes from Jewish roots is very problematic. It means that Christianity must necessarily supersede Judaism; or that somehow Christianity is inferior to its parent religion, Judaism, a sort of “Judaism light.” 
I believe it is more accurate to say that both Judaism, though it precedes Christianity by about 3 or 4 centuries, and Christianity are variations of the religion of Israel. We Christians thus must concede that Jews have an authentic claim to be Israel. What I would hope for is the recognition of Jews that we too practice a form of the religion of Israel, which we believe to be its fulfillment. Thus we may find a new mutual respect and a way to collaborate despite the horrors of the past, a collaboration that is respectful and mutually beneficial, while admitting real and serious differences. 
We claim to be Israel by just a bit of genetic inheritance and a lot of adoption. We are members of the same religion, but followers of different faiths. Jesus and Moses are not enemies. Their followers should imitate them.
Rev. Know-it-all
PS you will be pleased to know that my family did not get along with Henry Ford. They refused to loan him money when he wanted to get his business going. We thought he was a bad investment and beside he gave us the shpilkes.
 
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