Bill Maher on Reverse Improvement (1 Viewer)

[BassNBrew]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

50 this year. I am going to mostly agree with you here, and partially agree with @BassNBrew above. The cutoff to get into college is higher, 100%. I went to UW-Madison in '93 and 0% change I would get in now. I think I had around a 3.5, I fell asleep during the reading portion of the ACT and I think got a 24-25 on that, and I was 2 sports for extras as a Senior. Where I agree with you is that the GPA and test scores are a bit higher now. However, I believe it is a bit easier on average to get those high grades as well. My kid graduated early and at my job I work with a lot of high schoolers. I have witnessed at my son's school and a lot of them talk about how there's no penalty for turning things in late, they get multiple retakes on tests, they get a ton of extra credit oppurtunities, etc. I don't think graduating with a 3.9 means as much as it did a few decades ago. That's where I agree with BnB's sentiment. Where I am back to really agreeing with you is that since now everybody has very similar GPAs and test scores now the way to stand out is to be in a ton of extras, and I am sure that is a big cause of stress and lack of sleep. All anecdotal, and I love to hear other people's experiences if they differ vastly.

All that said, I keep going back to the stats and that graph I linked. There is a 3-4X increase on average in those stats within a decade (or more depending the stat and demographic you are looking at. And that starts about 2007/2008) I am open to other theories, but do you think that school and work is 3x more stressful than in 2000 or when I graduated? We got through wars and Columbine and 9/11 without seeing that. I can't think of any changes in schooling or admissions process for college that could account for that huge spike.

I keep coming back to the combo of internet + phones in our pocket. It makes bullying easy and seemingly inescapable (increase in depression and suicide). The apps and sites are designed to hold your attention for as long as possible interacting with devices instead of humans around us (increase in loneliness and isolation). So much so that for many their phones are constantly buzzing (increase in anxiety) What attracts our attention is usually negative things, so too often that is what keeps us engaged the longest, which often leads to hatred, divisiveness, and thinking things are scarier than they statistically are. (again increasing isolation and axiety). To me it makes the most sense of what is behind a huge portion of that severe increase we see in these negative social factors.

I get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

I agree with some of your points, but overall it is more difficult. People see the higher grades and compare them with previous generations. That is like comparing millionaires in the 50's to millionaires now.

The other thing is efficiency, with things online and the resources we have now things don't take as long. Kids now are taking higher level courses at a much younger age. High schoolers are graduating with enough credits to have an associates degree, or halfway to journey mans card in the trades and the competition to get into a college or certain programs in a college has never been higher. Plus add in the sports that are no longer by season or even just the weekdays. They are year round and on the weekends.

Could you explain what you mean by the bolded? Is your position that you think a 3.9 is much harder to achieve now vs decades ago, and so much so that it accounts for most of that rise in stress/depression/isolation reported?

You said you are in education - is there something I am not thinking about that happened in the 00s that you could point to that would explain that fast spike in those types of feelings reported? Change in policy, testing, admissions requirements, etc..

In the 50's being a millionaire meant you were rich, like really rich. Now it means you are comfortable, but billionaires are really rich.

Graduating with a 3.9 meant you did really well school, 20ish years ago. Now 4.2 + is that number. 3.9 is still good.

There are a ton of factors other than social media. I will name a few. Social acceptance, people used to keep more quiet about being depressed. Resources, it is easier to get help. Using it as a crutch to get attention or sympathy. Obviously this a small sample size, but in the 10 years I was in the classroom I had less than five students come to me for help with depression. In the last 10 years I have seen 100's of students/parents ask for help. I can't prove it, but I would bet more than half of them are using that as an excuse to get sympathy/forgiveness for their bad behavior or grades. Covid also did a number on kids.

LOL...WTF is a 4.2. Back in the day you have to be perfect to get a 4.0. Competition to get an A in Calculus was brutal. Classes weren't weighted so you worked your butt off in Honors/AP classes otherwise karen in Home Ec was going to eat your scholarship lunch.

What are you even talking about. None of that is true. A kid with a 4.0 taking shop, home economics, and four years of gym wasn't taking an academic scholarship from someone with a 3.5 with all AP classes. That is just ridiculous.

Grade points can go up as high as 5.0. Look up IB, this is an extremely difficult program, much harder than AP and accelerated. It is weighted higher because getting an A in an IB course is tough.

They were in Missouri where every kid in the top 1% regardless of classes taken was offered a full ride to an in state school. The difference between finishing 7th and 8th in your class was huge.

That is a government program, not a scholarship. They are different things.

Well they called it a scholarship and it paid for tuition, but maybe they were using the wrong name. Not sure I see the difference between the state offering something and a school receiving funding from the state offering something.

 

[msudaisy26]

Sure, but much of that is because the "innovations" are now designed to keep us on our phones and their sites as long as possible, to sell more crap, not to make our lives easier and more efficient. Which is what he is complaining about.

It takes intentional effort, but us humans have the ability to act counter to our corporate overlords goals.

I agree. Individually it's still hard, but doable. However, society wide it would be almost impossible at this point. Mostly because as we see in this thread, there is nowhere near a consensus on what the tech and apps are doing to us or what the intent of these companies are.

What else has changed? Pressure to perform at school, school shootings, identity issues.

I disagree that is problem is mostly because of social media.

All us had pressure to perform at school, that is lumped into stress and lack of sleep for me. School shootings, maybe here, but this phenomenon is also not isolated to our country like school shootings are, so I am not convinced by that. I am not 100% sure what you mean by that last one, but much of that is fostered online on social media and I revert back to my first point about school shootings - you can see these same spikes around the world in places that don't have the same social issues that we are talking about.

I don't know yout age, but the pressure to perform in school is much higher now than when I was in school.

50 this year. I am going to mostly agree with you here, and partially agree with @BassNBrew above. The cutoff to get into college is higher, 100%. I went to UW-Madison in '93 and 0% change I would get in now. I think I had around a 3.5, I fell asleep during the reading portion of the ACT and I think got a 24-25 on that, and I was 2 sports for extras as a Senior. Where I agree with you is that the GPA and test scores are a bit higher now. However, I believe it is a bit easier on average to get those high grades as well. My kid graduated early and at my job I work with a lot of high schoolers. I have witnessed at my son's school and a lot of them talk about how there's no penalty for turning things in late, they get multiple retakes on tests, they get a ton of extra credit oppurtunities, etc. I don't think graduating with a 3.9 means as much as it did a few decades ago. That's where I agree with BnB's sentiment. Where I am back to really agreeing with you is that since now everybody has very similar GPAs and test scores now the way to stand out is to be in a ton of extras, and I am sure that is a big cause of stress and lack of sleep. All anecdotal, and I love to hear other people's experiences if they differ vastly.

All that said, I keep going back to the stats and that graph I linked. There is a 3-4X increase on average in those stats within a decade (or more depending the stat and demographic you are looking at. And that starts about 2007/2008) I am open to other theories, but do you think that school and work is 3x more stressful than in 2000 or when I graduated? We got through wars and Columbine and 9/11 without seeing that. I can't think of any changes in schooling or admissions process for college that could account for that huge spike.

I keep coming back to the combo of internet + phones in our pocket. It makes bullying easy and seemingly inescapable (increase in depression and suicide). The apps and sites are designed to hold your attention for as long as possible interacting with devices instead of humans around us (increase in loneliness and isolation). So much so that for many their phones are constantly buzzing (increase in anxiety) What attracts our attention is usually negative things, so too often that is what keeps us engaged the longest, which often leads to hatred, divisiveness, and thinking things are scarier than they statistically are. (again increasing isolation and axiety). To me it makes the most sense of what is behind a huge portion of that severe increase we see in these negative social factors.

I get that I am also a tech grump, so I also fail to see the pluses that have happened because this tech in our pocket that would offset all the negative I see.

I agree with some of your points, but overall it is more difficult. People see the higher grades and compare them with previous generations. That is like comparing millionaires in the 50's to millionaires now.

The other thing is efficiency, with things online and the resources we have now things don't take as long. Kids now are taking higher level courses at a much younger age. High schoolers are graduating with enough credits to have an associates degree, or halfway to journey mans card in the trades and the competition to get into a college or certain programs in a college has never been higher. Plus add in the sports that are no longer by season or even just the weekdays. They are year round and on the weekends.

Could you explain what you mean by the bolded? Is your position that you think a 3.9 is much harder to achieve now vs decades ago, and so much so that it accounts for most of that rise in stress/depression/isolation reported?

You said you are in education - is there something I am not thinking about that happened in the 00s that you could point to that would explain that fast spike in those types of feelings reported? Change in policy, testing, admissions requirements, etc..

In the 50's being a millionaire meant you were rich, like really rich. Now it means you are comfortable, but billionaires are really rich.

Graduating with a 3.9 meant you did really well school, 20ish years ago. Now 4.2 + is that number. 3.9 is still good.

There are a ton of factors other than social media. I will name a few. Social acceptance, people used to keep more quiet about being depressed. Resources, it is easier to get help. Using it as a crutch to get attention or sympathy. Obviously this a small sample size, but in the 10 years I was in the classroom I had less than five students come to me for help with depression. In the last 10 years I have seen 100's of students/parents ask for help. I can't prove it, but I would bet more than half of them are using that as an excuse to get sympathy/forgiveness for their bad behavior or grades. Covid also did a number on kids.

LOL...WTF is a 4.2. Back in the day you have to be perfect to get a 4.0. Competition to get an A in Calculus was brutal. Classes weren't weighted so you worked your butt off in Honors/AP classes otherwise karen in Home Ec was going to eat your scholarship lunch.

What are you even talking about. None of that is true. A kid with a 4.0 taking shop, home economics, and four years of gym wasn't taking an academic scholarship from someone with a 3.5 with all AP classes. That is just ridiculous.

Grade points can go up as high as 5.0. Look up IB, this is an extremely difficult program, much harder than AP and accelerated. It is weighted higher because getting an A in an IB course is tough.

They were in Missouri where every kid in the top 1% regardless of classes taken was offered a full ride to an in state school. The difference between finishing 7th and 8th in your class was huge.

That is a government program, not a scholarship. They are different things.

Well they called it a scholarship and it paid for tuition, but maybe they were using the wrong name. Not sure I see the difference between the state offering something and a school receiving funding from the state offering something.

A grant or government program has a set guidelines and anyone that meets said guidelines gets money.

A scholarship is a money that someone or an institution sets aside to lure the best candidates, then you apply for it and they looks over transcripts and such to determine who gets it.

It is basically public school vs private school K through 12. As long as you meet certain requirements you get to go to public school, you have to qualify and be accepted for private school.