Bill Maher Vs Rashida Tlaib (1 Viewer)

[jon_mx]

Another thread down the drain.  I can't quite put my finger on what went wrong.

Wide sweeping charges of being a phony and a bigot is always a great conversation starter.

 

[wikkidpissah]

If i were an American Muslim, i'd be more than a little disheartened that the bold new political voices in my demographic have gotten themselves bogged down in an Ay-rab issue instead focusing on the home front. One step forward, two steps back - liberation marches on...

 

[Ilov80s]

If i were an American Muslim, i'd be more than a little disheartened that the bold new political voices in my demographic have gotten themselves bogged down in an Ay-rab issue instead focusing on the home front. One step forward, two steps back - liberation goes on...

American involvement in the ME is a pretty big issue for Arab Americans. The reason many are here in the first place is violence and unrest in their home countries, most have family they are still close to that live in the Middle East. My guess is that issues like that this poll strong among Arab Americans. 

 

[Da Guru]

Another thread down the drain.  I can't quite put my finger on what went wrong.

It does not take long in the PSF for a thread to go into the toilet.

 

[Ilov80s]

Tlaib getting into a dust-up today with Detroit Police after she @ them on Twitter saying they should stop using "facial recognition bulls**t". I am fine with questioning it but do we need to swear at the police Twitter account? 
 

 

[wikkidpissah]

American involvement in the ME is a pretty big issue for Arab Americans. The reason many are here in the first place is violence and unrest in their home countries, most have family they are still close to that live in the Middle East. My guess is that issues like that this poll strong among Arab Americans. 

And another generation of legitimacy goes out the window with one's cares. We no longer think ethnicity when we hear political names like LaGuardia or Kennedy - we think of crowded airports selling $17 bottles of water. That's due in some measure to not hearing about the Black Shirts or IRA from either of them.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Wide sweeping charges of being a phony and a bigot is always a great conversation starter.

I didn't accuse you personally. And I offered extensive facts and examples to back up those accusations, as I always do. And not one fact or example has been refuted.

I apologize for bringing the perspective of an American Jew who has visited Israel three times and has extensive firsthand knowledge of the oppression experienced by Arabs living in the West Bank and elsewhere in Israel to this conversation about anti-Semitism and the Israel/Palestine question. I'll step aside so you can continue your conversation. If you, @rockaction or any other conservatives/Republicans want to discuss this further after >70% of American Jews once again vote Democrat in 2020, let me know and I'll be happy to re-engage!

 

[Da Guru]

Tlaib getting into a dust-up today with Detroit Police after she @ them on Twitter saying they should stop using "facial recognition bulls**t". I am fine with questioning it but do we need to swear at the police Twitter account? 
 

Tlaib disrupted a meeting in Detroit 16 times in 2016 before she was in congress and had to be forcibly removed while she was skipping and screaming.  We already have a POTUS who is nuts but Tlaib is in the same class.

 

[adonis]

I haven't read or listened to anything in a long time, but I'm more than willing to tell you what I think may have happened and to express my outrage accordingly.

 

[rockaction]

I didn't accuse you personally. And I offered extensive facts and examples to back up those accusations, as I always do. And not one fact or example has been refuted.

I apologize for bringing the perspective of an American Jew who has visited Israel three times and has extensive firsthand knowledge of the oppression experienced by Arabs living in the West Bank and elsewhere in Israel to this conversation about anti-Semitism and the Israel/Palestine question. I'll step aside so you can continue your conversation. If you, @rockaction or any other conservatives/Republicans want to discuss this further after >70% of American Jews once again vote Democrat in 2020, let me know and I'll be happy to re-engage!

Gorry, GB, not taking the hook here other than to say I hope you and yours are blessed. I mean that. My mood yesterday was a bit off-kilter, if you'll pardon me. We tend to be simpatico on the boards and it's no sense wasting that over a disagreement about what we were disagreeing about.

peace.

 

[rockaction]

I don't mean hook, really. I mean respond to the shout-out by "@"

I don't have it in me for the debate. 

 

[jon_mx]

I didn't accuse you personally. And I offered extensive facts and examples to back up those accusations, as I always do. And not one fact or example has been refuted.

It was implied and you never appologized for it.  Just a comment about you don't know.  Nobody wants to engage you in your discussion because you logic is so flawed and it would be both a stupid and futile discussion.  

 

[TobiasFunke]

I don't mean hook, really. I mean respond to the shout-out by "@"

I don't have it in me for the debate. 

The offer was sincere. If any conservatives are befuddled by American Jews' continued support for Dems in the age of the Trump-Netanyahu love affair, Tlaib and Omar (a surreal 79% voted Dem in 2018 midterms and I expect them to come in around 75% for the Dem nominee in 2020), I'm happy to offer my perspective. If not, that's fine too. 

 

[ren hoek]

It is what BDS is not saying that is troubling.  There is not balance suggesting Israel has any right to any terroritory.  In fact, if you listen to their spokesperson, it is clear Jews have no place in the region.

----------

In an interview, Omar Barghouti, a top B.D.S. spokesman, called the Israeli laws racist and exclusionary. A democratic state could still provide asylum for Jewish refugees, showing “some sensitivity to the Jewish experience,” he said, “but it cannot be a racist law that says only Jews benefit.” Asked if that means Jews cannot have their own state, he said, “Not in Palestine.”

----------

Present day Israel is what most Arabs consider Pasestine.  

They are saying 'Jews cannot have their own state' like 'whites can not have their own state' or 'Muslims can not have their own state'.  Because such a state hinges on racist, supermacist applications of law that are fundamentally undemocratic.  

 

[jon_mx]

They are saying 'Jews cannot have their own state' like 'whites can not have their own state' or 'Muslims can not have their own state'.  Because such a state hinges on racist, supermacist applications of law that are fundamentally undemocratic.  

...They absolutely believe in a Muslim State.  You really believe Muslims support democratic principles and human rights?  Most countries in the Arab world are authoritarian regimes with a state religion.  Are you under some dilussion that Muslims countries treat Jewish people well?  Hundreds of thousands of Jewsish have been forcifully deported from Arab countries.

 

[rockaction]

ren, are seriously believing with credulity that a one-state solution means nothing but adherence to mere democratic principles -- that it does not involve discrimination against and deportation of Jews if it ever comes to pass?

Oh my God, ren, you're an anarchist. Stop believing #### like that with credulity. 

 

[rockaction]

That's pretty much a holy war one side can't win and is begging for it to be done at the ballot box. This is what Nietzsche talked about with his concept of democracies being a product of slave morality, that's for certain. 

 

[ren hoek]

...They absolutely believe in a Muslim State.  You really believe Muslims support democratic principles and human rights?  Most countries in the Arab world are authoritarian regimes with a state religion.  Are you under some dilussion that Muslims countries treat Jewish people well?  Hundreds of thousands of Jewsish have been forcifully deported from Arab countries.

We were talking about BDS.  Supporters of BDS aren't synonymous with "Muslims".  Yes, I believe their goal is democracy and equality in Israel/Palestine.  

Iran's Mossadegh, democratically elected before he was overthrown in a CIA coup and replaced with a brutal dictator, actually expressed admiration for the US system, and its love of freedom and democracy.  Saddam himself was once an operative for the CIA.  So was OBL.  What we see now is the aftermath of decades of western meddling in the middle east, often to reinforce the most backwards, fundamentalist regimes because it served our interests. 

The state of the middle east today didn't happen in a vacuum, and I think it's kind of xenophobic to chalk it up to "Muslims" just being Muslims.  And yeah, I'm sure somewhere down the line Arabs could have done a much better job in their treatment of Jews.  But that's no excuse for Israel's treatment of Palestinians.  

 

[ren hoek]

ren, are seriously believing with credulity that a one-state solution means nothing but adherence to mere democratic principles -- that it does not involve discrimination against and deportation of Jews if it ever comes to pass?

I mean, I think so, yes.  I'd rather take a chance on that than keeping the status quo, where Israel imprisons children, murders protesters, rations electricity and food, steals land, builds settlements, etc.  The human rights abuses are really too many to count.  

It's weird that people find this hypothetical so horrifying, but not the real life abuses happening in our name everyday.  

 

[rockaction]

I mean, I think so, yes.  I'd rather take a chance on that than keeping the status quo, where Israel imprisons children, murders protesters, rations electricity and food, steals land, builds settlements, etc.  The human rights abuses are really too many to count.  

It's weird that people find this hypothetical so horrifying, but not the real life abuses happening in our name everyday.  

I think people are trying to rectify the real-life abuses without ejecting Jews from Israel, which a one-state solution de facto does. It's easy to hide behind majoritarianism sometimes when your goal is really something else. If they want a one-state with a First Amendment and interpretation like the U.S.A.'s modern interpretation, then I'm ears. Until then, no way.

 

[jon_mx]

I mean, I think so, yes.  I'd rather take a chance on that than keeping the status quo, where Israel imprisons children, murders protesters, rations electricity and food, steals land, builds settlements, etc.  The human rights abuses are really too many to count.  

It's weird that people find this hypothetical so horrifying, but not the real life abuses happening in our name everyday.  

And yet it pales in comparison to the treatment of Jew by the Arabs.  Let's not pretend the Jews are doing this for no reason.  

 

[supermike80]

It was implied and you never appologized for it.  Just a comment about you don't know.  Nobody wants to engage you in your discussion because you logic is so flawed and it would be both a stupid and futile discussion.  

I gave up the very first day.   

 

[Doug B]

In a nutshell, Maher criticized BDS.

I might be behind the curve, but "BDS" still needs clarification on first reference -- it's not really a famous acronym yet:

Maher drew applause in studio on his HBO show after declaring the boycott, divestment and sanctions (BDS) movement (towards Israel - db) supported by some congressional Democrats "a bull#### purity test by people who want to appear woke but actually slept through history class."

 

[Sweet J]

ren, are seriously believing with credulity that a one-state solution means nothing but adherence to mere democratic principles -- that it does not involve discrimination against and deportation of Jews if it ever comes to pass?

Oh my God, ren, you're an anarchist. Stop believing #### like that with credulity. 

I'll reply to both you and @jon_mx at once here:  I don't know too much about the history.  But I think it is fair to say that there is an appreciable difference between "we shouldn't have a Jewish state" and "there must be a Muslim state."

If a "Jewish state" means "Muslims who live there have less rights than Jewish people," than I see a fundamental problem with that, don't you?

 

[Doug B]

BDS is an organization that stands for Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (of Israel) and is a Palestinian-run group that calls for all three of these things until Israel is in compliance with "international law" with regard to certain hot-button issues. You can find them right here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott,_Divestment_and_Sanctions

Thanks for this ... didn't realize it was an actual political organization. Thought it was an ideological plan that was thought up in the U.S.

 

[jon_mx]

I'll reply to both you and @jon_mx at once here:  I don't know too much about the history.  But I think it is fair to say that there is an appreciable difference between "we shouldn't have a Jewish state" and "there must be a Muslim state."

If a "Jewish state" means "Muslims who live there have less rights than Jewish people," than I see a fundamental problem with that, don't you?

Do we have a problem with the Muslim states where Jews who live there have less rights than Muslim people?  Jews have been forced out of every Muslim country in the Middle East.  The few that remain are oppressed and lack rights.  Arab countries have fought wars to eliminate Jews from the region.  Israel has to have endured terrorist attacks after terrorist attacks.   It is a bit crazy that people think Jews are the major problem here.  It is a two-way street, but Jews are fighting for their survival.  

 

[timschochet]

If a "Jewish state" means "Muslims who live there have less rights than Jewish people," than I see a fundamental problem with that, don't you?

It’s a fundamental problem. It’s never been solved and perhaps never will be solved. The Israeli constitution grants all citizens equal rights regardless of religion or race or creed. That is essential to Jewish liberal thinking, shaped by both the teachings of the Talmud and the Enlightenment. 

Yet, what is the purpose of the State of Israel? The same constitution states that the purpose is to provide a home for the Jewish people, that has to accept them. It was created as a direct result of the fact that during the years of the Holocaust and before, no country, including the USA, was willing to provide a place for Jews to flee mass murder. So Israel is essentially a Jewish State, built by Jews for Jews (though Jews are not defined as a religion- the writers of this document were mostly secularist). 

So here we have a contradiction. How can a Israel both be a Jewish State and a state that offers equal rights at the same time? It can’t. And a fundamental truth is that if Israel were to grant equal rights, including the “right of return” demanded by most Palestinians including Tlaib, it would result in a majority Muslim state with Muslim leaders who would change the constitution and the nature of Israel- in fact they would eradicate it. 

So Israelis are forced to live with the contradiction. What other alternative is there? 

 

[Sweet J]

Do we have a problem with the Muslim states where Jews who live there have less rights than Muslim people?  Jews have been forced out of every Muslim country in the Middle East.  The few that remain are oppressed and lack rights.  Arab countries have fought wars to eliminate Jews from the region.  Israel has to have endured terrorist attacks after terrorist attacks.   It is a bit crazy that people think Jews are the major problem here.  It is a two-way street, but Jews are fighting for their survival.  

I dunno, man.  First, I don't really know what the laws in other countries are.  But if you are talking about Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, I could imagine there are some eff-up laws there.  So is that the standard we are holding ourselves to?  In the United States, if we stopped giving black people the vote, and they objected to it, would we be like "I don't know what you are complaining about, people in Africa aren't allowed to vote, either."

But anyway, you didn't answer my question.  Is it ok to have a nation-state that strips rights away from people solely on the  basis of their religion or race? (your answer is basically "well, other countries do it.").

I mean, if you think it is ok and justifiable to treat Muslims in Israel that way, at least own it.  

 

[whoknew]

The offer was sincere. If any conservatives are befuddled by American Jews' continued support for Dems in the age of the Trump-Netanyahu love affair, Tlaib and Omar (a surreal 79% voted Dem in 2018 midterms and I expect them to come in around 75% for the Dem nominee in 2020), I'm happy to offer my perspective. If not, that's fine too. 

Apparently Trump just said this -  "Any Jewish people that vote for a Democrat -- I think it shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty."

 

[whoknew]

Do we have a problem with the Muslim states where Jews who live there have less rights than Muslim people?  Jews have been forced out of every Muslim country in the Middle East.  The few that remain are oppressed and lack rights.  Arab countries have fought wars to eliminate Jews from the region.  Israel has to have endured terrorist attacks after terrorist attacks.   It is a bit crazy that people think Jews are the major problem here.  It is a two-way street, but Jews are fighting for their survival.  

Are you familiar with the concept "two wrongs don't make a right?"

 

[dkp993]

Reading these last few pages I realize how little I know about the Israel/Jew situation.  Honestly I feel like I’m reading Greek.  

 

[Sweet J]

It’s a fundamental problem. It’s never been solved and perhaps never will be solved. The Israeli constitution grants all citizens equal rights regardless of religion or race or creed. That is essential to Jewish liberal thinking, shaped by both the teachings of the Talmud and the Enlightenment. 

Yet, what is the purpose of the State of Israel? The same constitution states that the purpose is to provide a home for the Jewish people, that has to accept them. It was created as a direct result of the fact that during the years of the Holocaust and before, no country, including the USA, was willing to provide a place for Jews to flee mass murder. So Israel is essentially a Jewish State, built by Jews for Jews (though Jews are not defined as a religion- the writers of this document were mostly secularist). 

So here we have a contradiction. How can a Israel both be a Jewish State and a state that offers equal rights at the same time? It can’t. And a fundamental truth is that if Israel were to grant equal rights, including the “right of return” demanded by most Palestinians including Tlaib, it would result in a majority Muslim state with Muslim leaders who would change the constitution and the nature of Israel- in fact they would eradicate it. 

So Israelis are forced to live with the contradiction. What other alternative is there? 

I don't understand.  The two bolded items seem contradictory to me.  I'm sincerely asking -- what are the rights of Muslims in Israel?  Do they in fact have equal rights?  If not, how are t hey different? 

 

[timschochet]

Reading these last few pages I realize how little I know about the Israel/Jew situation.  Honestly I feel like I’m reading Greek.  

It’s very complicated. Even those who claim to know are often mistaken or uninformed. I thought I knew a lot but I learn new stuff all the time. Don’t be embarrassed. You probably already know much more than Donald Trump or his son in law “expert.” 

 

[timschochet]

I don't understand.  The two bolded items seem contradictory to me.  I'm sincerely asking -- what are the rights of Muslims in Israel?  Do they in fact have equal rights?  If not, how are t hey different? 

See this gets very very complicated and I’m not even sure how I can answer you. First off, there are 3 different categories: 

1. Muslims born in Israel who are Israeli citizens and live in Israel. 

2. Muslims not born in Israel who live or work in Israel but are not citizens. 

3. Muslims who live in areas occupied by the state of Israel (mostly Gaza and the West Bank). 

The first group have the most rights. They can vote, own property, do everything an Israeli citizen can. Yet they can also be made to feel unwelcome in certain residential areas (though their home ownership there is not legally restricted.) They are often stopped by police and military and harassed, they are subjected to personal indignities in a thousand ways. 

The second group has less rights. Their movement is highly restricted. 

The third group has almost no rights at all and depending on whom you believe, live under restrictions that make their lives intolerable (Tlaib’s grandmother belongs to the third group.) 

Thats my basic understanding. The details on this change all the time. 

 

[jon_mx]

Are you familiar with the concept "two wrongs don't make a right?"

And by wrongs you mean things like embracing Hitler's agenda and starting wars to eliminate Israel.  The Arabs were on the wrong side of history.  Get over it and let the Jews have their tiny little country in a sea of Arab nations.  

 

[TobiasFunke]

Apparently Trump just said this -  "Any Jewish people that vote for a Democrat -- I think it shows either a total lack of knowledge or great disloyalty."

This is obviously horrifically stupid and anti-Semitic in its own right, but IMO it also illustrates a larger problem in the conservative movement. 

Conservatives spend slmost 100% of the time they spend engaged with minority groups in the US telling them what they should think and do, and 0% of that time listening.  They tell African-Americans that they should vote Republican because the Dems have failed them, but don't bother to ask African-Americans why they don't vote Republican and refuse to listen to what they have to say (see eg. the conservative reaction to the outstanding 1619 Project). They tell the Hispanic community that they share their Catholic values on social issues, but ignore them when they point out that the party is using them as a scapegoat to inflame resentful white voters and validating anti-Hispanic bigots like Sheriff Arpaio. They tell Jews that they should embrace Republicans because they support Israel and that their economic policies are good for the disproportionately well-off American Jewish community, but don't bother to ask American Jews why they still vote 3 to 1 for Democrats despite this apparent common ground.

This shows up in miniature in this thread. I would hazard a guess that I am the only person who has posted in this thread who is Jewish and has visited Israel multiple times, visited the West Bank, and spoken at length with Arab residents of the state. I thought this experience would be of interest in this thread. But multiple conservative posters dismissed my anger at conservatives who use anti-Semitism as a shield for their attacks on Tlaib and Omar, and my opinions on the Jewish state, as run of the mill bleeding heart liberalism or partisanship.

This is why every historically oppressed minority group in America, including groups that conservatives haven't even quarreled with during the Trump era like Asian-Americans, are fleeing the party.  And it won't stop until they learn to stop talking down and learn to listen.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

The offer was sincere. If any conservatives are befuddled by American Jews' continued support for Dems in the age of the Trump-Netanyahu love affair, Tlaib and Omar (a surreal 79% voted Dem in 2018 midterms and I expect them to come in around 75% for the Dem nominee in 2020), I'm happy to offer my perspective. If not, that's fine too. 

I would be interested in hearing your perspective on this matter.  I would be more interested in hearing your perspective as to why that voting trend was true prior to Trump.

 

[Mister CIA]

I dunno, man.  First, I don't really know what the laws in other countries are.  But if you are talking about Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, I could imagine there are some eff-up laws there.  So is that the standard we are holding ourselves to?  In the United States, if we stopped giving black people the vote, and they objected to it, would we be like "I don't know what you are complaining about, people in Africa aren't allowed to vote, either."

But anyway, you didn't answer my question.  Is it ok to have a nation-state that strips rights away from people solely on the  basis of their religion or race? (your answer is basically "well, other countries do it.").

I mean, if you think it is ok and justifiable to treat Muslims in Israel that way, at least own it.  

PSA

 

[TobiasFunke]

I would be interested in hearing your perspective on this matter.  I would be more interested in hearing your perspective as to why that voting trend was true prior to Trump.

it's obviously a complicated question, but I'd point to three things, probably in this order:

1. The current generation of Jewish Americans were raised in the shadow of the Holocaust, and the "never again" message was drilled into our heads over and over. As a result we are extremely sympathetic to the concerns of other oppressed minorities even as we get distance from our own oppression.

2. For most of our lives the GOP (not all of them, but certainly many of them) has sought to encroach on the bright line separation between Church and state. This is obviously going to drive away Jews. People like Ted Cruz give lip service to "Judeo-Christian" ethics, but it's fairly transparent.

3.  Jews disproportinately belong to other demographics that lean left/vote Dem: urban or close-in suburban, Northeastern, college-educated, etc. This is the "correlation but not causation" aspect of the phenomenon.

I'm sure there's lots of other factors at work but those are the three that jump out to me.

As for Trump, Jews voted along with our standard voting patterns in 2016, and then went big for the Dems at the mid-term (79%) despite the fact that they disproportionately are benefitting from his economic policies.  I don't know how much of that was a rejection of Trumpism and how much was just correlation because the blue wave happened largely in the suburbs where Jews happen to reside, but I suspect it will happen again in 2020 and the Dem nominee will get somewhere around 75% of the Jewish vote after Hilary got 71%. I doubt the Netanyahu romance will move things very much- Jews generally are pro-Israel but resent being sterotyped as inextricably tied to the state, as Trump often does.

 

[whoknew]

it's obviously a complicated question, but I'd point to three things, probably in this order:

1. The current generation of Jewish Americans were raised in the shadow of the Holocaust, and the "never again" message was drilled into our heads over and over. As a result we are extremely sympathetic to the concerns of other oppressed minorities even as we get distance from our own oppression.

2. For most of our lives the GOP (not all of them, but certainly many of them) has sought to encroach on the bright line separation between Church and state. This is obviously going to drive away Jews. People like Ted Cruz give lip service to "Judeo-Christian" ethics, but it's fairly transparent.

3.  Jews disproportinately belong to other demographics that lean left/vote Dem: urban or close-in suburban, Northeastern, college-educated, etc. This is the "correlation but not causation" aspect of the phenomenon.

I'm sure there's lots of other factors at work but those are the three that jump out to me.

As for Trump, Jews voted along with our standard voting patterns in 2016, and then went big for the Dems at the mid-term (79%) despite the fact that they disproportionately are benefitting from his economic policies.  I don't know how much of that was a rejection of Trumpism and how much was just correlation because the blue wave happened largely in the suburbs where Jews happen to reside, but I suspect it will happen again in 2020 and the Dem nominee will get somewhere around 75% of the Jewish vote after Hilary got 71%. I doubt the Netanyahu romance will move things very much- Jews generally are pro-Israel but resent being sterotyped as inextricably tied to the state, as Trump often does.

Have you seen any polling on what percentage of American Jews support the current Israeli government and Netanyahu?

 

[whoknew]

And by wrongs you mean things like embracing Hitler's agenda and starting wars to eliminate Israel.  The Arabs were on the wrong side of history.  Get over it and let the Jews have their tiny little country in a sea of Arab nations.  

There's nothing for me to get over. I don't support the Arabs trying to exterminate Jews.

But I don't think that gives Israel carte blanche to do whatever it wants to the Palestinians. So why I don't support the bad Arabs, I also don't support the bad Israelis.

 

[jon_mx]

There's nothing for me to get over. I don't support the Arabs trying to exterminate Jews.

But I don't think that gives Israel carte blanche to do whatever it wants to the Palestinians. So why I don't support the bad Arabs, I also don't support the bad Israelis.

Yeah, let's just concentrate on how evil the Jews are.  Sorry, it is bs.  Muslims have lots of homes and none of their homes are friendly to outsiders.  Sick of the double standards the left wants to impose on the Jews. 

 

[whoknew]

Yeah, let's just concentrate on how evil the Jews are.  Sorry, it is bs.  Muslims have lots of homes and none of their homes are friendly to outsiders.  Sick of the double standards the left wants to impose on the Jews. 

Holy moly.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Have you seen any polling on what percentage of American Jews support the current Israeli government and Netanyahu?

I hadn't, but your question made me curious so I googled it. Found a lot of stuff about American Jewish attitudes towards Israel and American politics generally (no surprises), but at first glance nothing specifically about Netanyahu.

This is not at all scientific and just one guy's opinion, but I suspect the recent rhetoric including today's Trump tweet about "disloyal" Jews will backfire on Trump and his party. That sort of talk is not only obviously condescending, but also stereotypes Jews as being preoccupied with Israel at the expense of other priorities.

ETA: and right on cue, a conservative conflates Jews and Israelis seemingly without even realizing he's doing it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Yeah, let's just concentrate on how evil the Jews are.  Sorry, it is bs.  Muslims have lots of homes and none of their homes are friendly to outsiders.  Sick of the double standards the left wants to impose on the Jews. 

I guess those friendly Egyptians who gave me a ride from the Israeli border through the Sinai Peninsula with a stop for an elaborate feast along the way were just setting me up for some elaborate death trap.  Lucky for me the hash they shared with me clouded their brains enough to foil their plans!

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

it's obviously a complicated question, but I'd point to three things, probably in this order:

1. The current generation of Jewish Americans were raised in the shadow of the Holocaust, and the "never again" message was drilled into our heads over and over. As a result we are extremely sympathetic to the concerns of other oppressed minorities even as we get distance from our own oppression.

2. For most of our lives the GOP (not all of them, but certainly many of them) has sought to encroach on the bright line separation between Church and state. This is obviously going to drive away Jews. People like Ted Cruz give lip service to "Judeo-Christian" ethics, but it's fairly transparent.

3.  Jews disproportinately belong to other demographics that lean left/vote Dem: urban or close-in suburban, Northeastern, college-educated, etc. This is the "correlation but not causation" aspect of the phenomenon.

I'm sure there's lots of other factors at work but those are the three that jump out to me.

As for Trump, Jews voted along with our standard voting patterns in 2016, and then went big for the Dems at the mid-term (79%) despite the fact that they disproportionately are benefitting from his economic policies.  I don't know how much of that was a rejection of Trumpism and how much was just correlation because the blue wave happened largely in the suburbs where Jews happen to reside, but I suspect it will happen again in 2020 and the Dem nominee will get somewhere around 75% of the Jewish vote after Hilary got 71%. I doubt the Netanyahu romance will move things very much- Jews generally are pro-Israel but resent being sterotyped as inextricably tied to the state, as Trump often does.

Not to put words in your mouth, but to help my understanding, If a Republican came along who truly respected the rights of minorities and who obviously and genuinely appreciated multiculturalism, and who drew the brightest line in separation of church and state and who supported Israel as a matter of principle and loyalty and not as a pandering for votes could you see the Jewish demographic shifting to that candidate or would your third factor, and perhaps habit or comfort with historical party affiliation still rule the day?

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I guess those friendly Egyptians who gave me a ride from the Israeli border through the Sinai Peninsula with a stop for an elaborate feast along the way were just setting me up for some elaborate death trap.  Lucky for me the hash they shared with me clouded their brains enough to foil their plans!

That was fortuitous.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Not to put words in your mouth, but to help my understanding, If a Republican came along who truly respected the rights of minorities and who obviously and genuinely appreciated multiculturalism, and who drew the brightest line in separation of church and state and who supported Israel as a matter of principle and loyalty and not as a pandering for votes could you see the Jewish demographic shifting to that candidate or would your third factor, and perhaps habit or comfort with historical party affiliation still rule the day?

Well it would have to be a movement of Republicans, not just one guy. But yeah, I could see some sort of shift. 

Of course at the moment we have to ask ourselves if someone who "truly respected the rights of minorities and who obviously and genuinely appreciated multiculturalism, and who drew the brightest line in separation of church and state" could succeed as a Republican in the first place. Hopefully some day, but certainly not today.

That was fortuitous.

Indeed. Look at this place- it would have sucked if they'd murdered me before I got a chance to check it out.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I believe the pashtunwali practice of nanawatai is fully consistent with the five pillars of Islam.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Well it would have to be a movement of Republicans, not just one guy. But yeah, I could see some sort of shift. 

Of course at the moment we have to ask ourselves is someone who "truly respected the rights of minorities and who obviously and genuinely appreciated multiculturalism, and who drew the brightest line in separation of church and state" could succeed as a Republican in the first place. Hopefully some day, but certainly not today.

Indeed.Look at this place- it would have sucked if they'd murdered me before I got a chance to check it out.

Looks idyllic.  Probably more so after a bit of hash.