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BIZARRE Final Regular Season Standings Question (1 Viewer)

Big Sug

Footballguy
Hello.

I am the commissioner of a competitive 12 team league that has just completed its twelfth regular season--many of the owners have been competing together since 1996. Our league rulebook is approximately 15 pages long and covers almost every situation imaginable. But it does not cover this:

We have a standard non-decimal scoring system and we do not use tiebreakers such as bench scoring. This means that historically speaking we have had a handful of matchups that have ended in a tie (on average maybe one tie game every two seasons). For whatever reason, this year we had a flurry of ties: three of our regular season games ended in ties, including one Week 14 game that has created a really weird situation.

We are split into two divisions and the top two teams in each division make the playoffs. In one of the two divisions, the top three teams ended with the following records:

Team X: 10-4

Team A: 8-6

Team B: 7-5-2

Team X has made the playoffs, that much is certain. My question relates to teams A and B. Which one should get the second playoff spot?

The competing theories are as follows:

1. 8 gross wins is more than 7 gross wins. Team A has the best record and goes to the playoffs.

2. 7-5-2 is a better winning percentage than 8-6. Team B has the best record and goes to the playoffs.

3. A tie is really half a win and half a loss. Therefore Team A and Team B have the same record and the league tiebreakers must be employed to determine which team will advance.

Our league puts a lot of emphasis on the NFL's tiebreaking procedures when it comes to determining division winners and playoff berths. Can anyone on this board tell me what the NFL would do in this situation?

Can anyone on this board tell me what they would do irrespective of how the NFL would handle this? I'd be happy to provide more information in the event that I've not mentioned something important.

Thanks,

Sug

 
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Hello.I am the commissioner of a competitive 12 team league that has just completed its twelfth regular season--many of the owners have been competing together since 1996. Our league rulebook is approximately 15 pages long and covers almost every situation imaginable. But it does cover this:We have a standard non-decimal scoring system and we do not use tiebreakers such as bench scoring. This means that historically speaking we have had a handful of matchups that have ended in a tie (on average maybe one tie game every two seasons). For whatever reason, this year we had a flurry of ties: three of our regular season games ended in ties, including one Week 14 game that has created a really weird situation.We are split into two divisions and the top two teams in each division make the playoffs. In one of the two divisions, the top three teams ended with the following records:Team X: 10-4Team A: 8-6Team B: 7-5-2Team X has made the playoffs, that much is certain. My question relates to teams A and B. Which one should get the second playoff spot?The competing theories are as follows:a. 8 gross wins is more than 7 gross wins. Team A has the best record and goes to the playoffs. b. 7-5-2 is a better winning percentage than 8-6. Team B has the best record and goes to the playoffs. c. A tie is really half a win and half a loss. Therefore Team A and Team B have the same record and the league tiebreakers must be employed to determine which team will advance.Our league puts a lot of emphasis on the NFL's tiebreaking procedures when it comes to determining division winners and playoff berths. Can anyone on this board tell me what the NFL would do in this situation? Can anyone on this board tell me what they would do irrespective of how the NFL would handle this? I'd be happy to provide more information in the event that I've not mentioned something important.Thanks,Sug
FYI, the NFL would view Team B as 8-6 and go to NFL tiebreakers for two teams with the same record.There will be several posts here (I've seen it before) stating that 7-5-2 > 8-6 for the winning percentage, but the key point you state is that you model your tiebreakers according to the NFL. Therefore treat both teams as the NFL would - both are 8-6.
 
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Thanks for the replies guys. :shrug:

What was their head-head matchup(s)? Division record? Coin Flip?
I think that this information is irrelevant for the purpose of this thread, but Team A and Team B split their two head to head games. Team A finished the season 5-5 in the division and Team B finished the season 5-4-1 in the division.Head to head record and division record are the first two tiebreakers employed by the league for ties in the standings.
Also, Decimals is a good way to go for the future.
Seems with such a lengthy rule book, you would have a litany of tie breakers.
The league is 12 years old and has two trophies that get engraved and reassigned every season, one for the Super Bowl and one for the total points title. I really enjoy the fact that all the important scores in the fairly long history of the league are listed on these trophies. We're very tradition conscious. I like being able to compare the best teams from each year to one another using the same parameters.For the sake of tradition and for the sanctity of the historic records, we have never changed the scoring system notwithstanding its flaws. Maybe we'll make a change after this double-tie situation.
 
Pasquino is right. According to the NFL, and according to common sense, 7-5-2 is the same as 8-6.

2. 7-5-2 is a better winning percentage than 8-6.
This one here is completely wrong.If anyone has trouble comprehending that, ask them if they think 1-0-15 is a better winning percentage than 15-1-0.

 
2. 7-5-2 is a better winning percentage than 8-6. Team B has the best record and goes to the playoffs.

they are the same winning % Ties count as 1/2

 
Thanks for the replies guys. :hophead:

What was their head-head matchup(s)? Division record? Coin Flip?
I think that this information is irrelevant for the purpose of this thread, but Team A and Team B split their two head to head games. Team A finished the season 5-5 in the division and Team B finished the season 5-4-1 in the division.Head to head record and division record are the first two tiebreakers employed by the league for ties in the standings.
Also, Decimals is a good way to go for the future.
Seems with such a lengthy rule book, you would have a litany of tie breakers.
The league is 12 years old and has two trophies that get engraved and reassigned every season, one for the Super Bowl and one for the total points title. I really enjoy the fact that all the important scores in the fairly long history of the league are listed on these trophies. We're very tradition conscious. I like being able to compare the best teams from each year to one another using the same parameters.For the sake of tradition and for the sanctity of the historic records, we have never changed the scoring system notwithstanding its flaws. Maybe we'll make a change after this double-tie situation.
If your league has this much tradition under your regular scoring system, no use making a knee jerk reaction to something very rare that may not happen again. Don't change a thing.
 
Why is it that you don't use bench points in the event of a game ending in a tie?
Because it's a keeper league and the strength of your bench isn't necessarily indicative of the strength of your tream.Some guys like to stash keepers, some guys like to handcuff all their players. This tiebreaker always seemed a little odd to me, especially in non-redraft leagues.Again, this was the first year we ever had more than a single tie in our 86-game schedule. We've never had any sort of issue with ties happening before. They were fun coincidences until now.
 
Nice work, commish. You definitely should have treated these teams as tied and then applied league tiebreakers precisely as you did.

 
Why not just let next week decide it and let all 3 teams play. Highest scorer for the week moves on.

 
I think that this information is irrelevant for the purpose of this thread, but Team A and Team B split their two head to head games. Team A finished the season 5-5 in the division and Team B finished the season 5-4-1 in the division.Head to head record and division record are the first two tiebreakers employed by the league for ties in the standings.
I don't see why your second tiebreaker doesn't apply here.Tiebreaker 1: H2H splitTiebreaker 2: Division record (5-4-1 > 5-5) Team B moves on on Tiebreaker 2.
 
Why not just let next week decide it and let all 3 teams play. Highest scorer for the week moves on.
Kudos to you for this creative solution, but it isn't fair to the #1 seeded team. He shouldn't have to beat 2 teams.It's kind of hard to make a rule on the fly. I would flip the coin (online) 99 times and whoever wins, goes to the playoffs.Edit to add: Hopefully the two owners will agree.
 
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Why not just let next week decide it and let all 3 teams play. Highest scorer for the week moves on.
Kudos to you for this creative solution, but it isn't fair to the #1 seeded team. He shouldn't have to beat 2 teams.It's kind of hard to make a rule on the fly. I would flip the coin (online) 99 times and whoever wins, goes to the playoffs.Edit to add: Hopefully the two owners will agree.
I understand that but, it also is not fair for 1 team not to make it on a coin flip either. I would ask the #1 team if he cared if 2 teams made it in. Ask Texas how losing out on a 5th tiebreaker feels. I see that being the only fair way to go about it. If the #1 team is good he should take care of business.
 
I don't see why your second tiebreaker doesn't apply here.Tiebreaker 1: H2H splitTiebreaker 2: Division record (5-4-1 > 5-5) Team B moves on on Tiebreaker 2.
Tiebreaker 2 would apply if I choose to view Teams A and B as tied in the standings (i.e., option #3 above). I'm beginning to agree with most that have posted that this is the logical outcome, and under that outcome Team B would advance to the playoffs, yes.I'm waiting until tonight to make a fully informed final decision.
 
I don't see why your second tiebreaker doesn't apply here.Tiebreaker 1: H2H splitTiebreaker 2: Division record (5-4-1 > 5-5) Team B moves on on Tiebreaker 2.
Tiebreaker 2 would apply if I choose to view Teams A and B as tied in the standings (i.e., option #3 above). I'm beginning to agree with most that have posted that this is the logical outcome, and under that outcome Team B would advance to the playoffs, yes.I'm waiting until tonight to make a fully informed final decision.
If the intent of your league is to follow the NFL as closely as possible (or forgetting the NFL, just using logic), then a tie counts as .5 Win and .5 Loss. That is the only hole in your league rules, you didn't spell this out. Everything else falls into place once this is defined.This wouldn't change even if you did adopt decimal scoring - it would just be much more rare of an occurance.
 
Why not just let next week decide it and let all 3 teams play. Highest scorer for the week moves on.
Kudos to you for this creative solution, but it isn't fair to the #1 seeded team. He shouldn't have to beat 2 teams.It's kind of hard to make a rule on the fly. I would flip the coin (online) 99 times and whoever wins, goes to the playoffs.Edit to add: Hopefully the two owners will agree.
I understand that but, it also is not fair for 1 team not to make it on a coin flip either. I would ask the #1 team if he cared if 2 teams made it in. Ask Texas how losing out on a 5th tiebreaker feels. I see that being the only fair way to go about it. If the #1 team is good he should take care of business.
Agreee w/ Gman here. It's more fair to let the 3 teams all have a chance considering you can't really determine which of the 2 "tied" teams should make it in.I'd think all 3 would be cool w/ this, considering the circumstances. Anyone w/ FF stones should invite the challenge. :lmao: Then there's not complaining. They all had a chance.
 
I don't see why your second tiebreaker doesn't apply here.

Tiebreaker 1: H2H split

Tiebreaker 2: Division record (5-4-1 > 5-5)

Team B moves on on Tiebreaker 2.
Tiebreaker 2 would apply if I choose to view Teams A and B as tied in the standings (i.e., option #3 above). I'm beginning to agree with most that have posted that this is the logical outcome, and under that outcome Team B would advance to the playoffs, yes.I'm waiting until tonight to make a fully informed final decision.
Based on your rules and desire to follow the NFL model, this is the right conclusion.
 
vamphyri said:
Big Sug said:
Jene Bramel said:
I don't see why your second tiebreaker doesn't apply here.

Tiebreaker 1: H2H split

Tiebreaker 2: Division record (5-4-1 > 5-5)

Team B moves on on Tiebreaker 2.
Tiebreaker 2 would apply if I choose to view Teams A and B as tied in the standings (i.e., option #3 above). I'm beginning to agree with most that have posted that this is the logical outcome, and under that outcome Team B would advance to the playoffs, yes.I'm waiting until tonight to make a fully informed final decision.
Based on your rules and desire to follow the NFL model, this is the right conclusion.
:thumbup: seems simple and straightforward to me. Not sure why there was ever a question in the first place. Team B advances on the second tiebreaker.
 
vamphyri said:
Big Sug said:
Jene Bramel said:
I don't see why your second tiebreaker doesn't apply here.

Tiebreaker 1: H2H split

Tiebreaker 2: Division record (5-4-1 > 5-5)

Team B moves on on Tiebreaker 2.
Tiebreaker 2 would apply if I choose to view Teams A and B as tied in the standings (i.e., option #3 above). I'm beginning to agree with most that have posted that this is the logical outcome, and under that outcome Team B would advance to the playoffs, yes.I'm waiting until tonight to make a fully informed final decision.
Based on your rules and desire to follow the NFL model, this is the right conclusion.
:goodposting: seems simple and straightforward to me. Not sure why there was ever a question in the first place. Team B advances on the second tiebreaker.
This is clearly the right answer. I guess I thought with my first post that this had been decided already.
 

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