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Bonds: ARod not as good as me (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Apollo
- Start date
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
But aren't A-Rod and Bonds pretty good friends as well? I remember during the HR derby ESPN was slobbering all over the two of them having a conversation and that Alex was wearing orange which may symbolize him coming to SF to play with his "good friend" Barry.
Pat Patriot
Footballguy
If A-Rod goes to SF, it will be to REPLACE Bonds not to play WITH Bonds. After Bonds breaks the record, SF will not want anything to do with him. Especially at $16 million a year.
Darth Cheney
Footballguy
That orange was symbolizing him going to Baltimore.
fruity pebbles
Footballguy
he's right
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
i dont get it?
Bonds= top 5-10 hitters all time
Arod= not so much
Bonds=one of best defensive players ever
Arod=not so much
Bonds=more MVPs than any player ever
Arod=not so much
Bonds= top 5-10 hitters all time
Arod= not so much
Bonds=one of best defensive players ever
Arod=not so much
Bonds=more MVPs than any player ever
Arod=not so much
jabarony
Footballguy
That's just not true. He couldn't even throw out Sid Bream.
Kevin Ashcraft
Footballguy
What's the follow-up? Does it involve race or steroids?
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Wrigley
Footballguy
First of all, ARod has played one of the hardest positions in all of baseball(SS-3B).....so who's to say who is the better fielder?
Second, sure ARod is better now......according to Bonds it's because ARod is younger.........WTF? Has anyone compared the two players numbers at the age of 32? Not even close.
Now, if we can only get ARod to do roids, he might be able to hit 900 dongs, and get the greatest cheater of all time to shut up.
Second, sure ARod is better now......according to Bonds it's because ARod is younger.........WTF? Has anyone compared the two players numbers at the age of 32? Not even close.
Now, if we can only get ARod to do roids, he might be able to hit 900 dongs, and get the greatest cheater of all time to shut up.
wilked
Footballguy
exactly
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Is it Bonds fault that ARod won't do what it takes to take his game to the level that Bond's detractors accuse him of going?
cobalt_27
Footballguy
No kidding.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
you're wrong
prosopis
Arizona Chupacabra
This is correct
The Man from Laramie
Footballguy
Through the "end" of their age 31 seasons:
Bonds A-RodH 1595 2183SB 380 252HR 334 499RBI 993 1449AVG .288 .306OBP .404 .387SLG .548 .577EQR 1316 1377FRAR 267 288WARP 121.5 143 Congratulations on being a better base stealer, Barry. Of course, up to his age, you were caught almost twice as much as A-Rod. So actually, you weren't as good a base stealer, you just accumulated more steals.
Bond has better plate discipline, but that edge is pretty much nullified by the larger gap in SLG between the two.
And Bonds has been a worse left-fielder than A-Rod has been a SS and 3B, both of which are more difficult positions.
Last, A-Rod still has half a season to go before this is really an apples to apples comparison anyways. That's why I put "end" in quotes.
The only thing that remains to be seen is whether A-Rod can stay healthy enough to have a career as long as Bonds' and whether for some mysterious reason, A-Rod will hit a second career peak starting when he turns 35 years old.
Bonds A-RodH 1595 2183SB 380 252HR 334 499RBI 993 1449AVG .288 .306OBP .404 .387SLG .548 .577EQR 1316 1377FRAR 267 288WARP 121.5 143 Congratulations on being a better base stealer, Barry. Of course, up to his age, you were caught almost twice as much as A-Rod. So actually, you weren't as good a base stealer, you just accumulated more steals.
Bond has better plate discipline, but that edge is pretty much nullified by the larger gap in SLG between the two.
And Bonds has been a worse left-fielder than A-Rod has been a SS and 3B, both of which are more difficult positions.
Last, A-Rod still has half a season to go before this is really an apples to apples comparison anyways. That's why I put "end" in quotes.
The only thing that remains to be seen is whether A-Rod can stay healthy enough to have a career as long as Bonds' and whether for some mysterious reason, A-Rod will hit a second career peak starting when he turns 35 years old.
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
before 2000 almost every baseball writer would have claimed that Barry was the best defensive left fielder in the game. Many would have said of all time.People are blinded by hate. They are also blinded by the fact that he is old right now and because he can hit so well they keep him in there even though he has a hard time running.
The Man from Laramie
Footballguy
LF is the easiest position to field in the game other than 1B (and of course DH if you count that). SS is the 2nd hardest after catcher. 3B is in the middle of the spectrum.Bonds' 6 Gold Gloves for the outfield (and LF is the easiest OF position) is great, but isn't vastly more impressivge than A-Rod's two at SS, a position he left the next year when he joined the Yankees.
Koya
Footballguy
1st: Pre Roid Bonds was not touching top 10 hitters of all time. Arod is the second best offensive player ever at SS/3B. If you ignore the context of position in baseball, it is at your peril.2nd: When was Bonds ever one of the best defensive players EVER? Arod is well above average at his positions, overall, although not a wiz. That said, if you are trying to get defense points for a left fielder vs. a SS/3B? Good luck with that3rd: I will discount anything 'roids on. Before then, Bonds still had the lead in MVPs, but I don't know that he was the better player than Arod. Im going to look at the numbers now before I make a final determination.
Koya
Footballguy
WTF would race have anything to do with this? You have one of the most infamous cheaters of all time who also happens to be a lying misanthrope... the cheating and lying about it while acting as if he deserves respect is the only issue here.What's the follow-up? Does it involve race or steroids?
Koya
Footballguy
Ok, checked out the stats.
Over the first 13 seasons for both players, which gets Arod to this year and Bonds the last year he was both healthy and not obviously going to roid direction. I would say a pretty fair sample, maybe the most fair for these two players.
Bonds averages:
8400 ABs
0.291 Avd
17.4 AB/HR
0.411 OBP
0.561 SLG
0.972 OPS
445 SBs
MVP: 3 First, 1 Second, 1 Fourth, 2 Fifth
GG: 8 in OF
SS: 7 in OF
Four OBP Title
One HR Title
One RBI Title
Arod
7850 ABs
0.305 AVG
15.7 AB/HR
0.385 OBP
0.572 SLG
0.957 OPS
241 SB
MVP: 2 First, 2 Second, 1 Third
GG: 2 @ SS
SS: 7@ SS 1 @ 3B
One Batting Title
Five HR Titles
Two RBI Titles
One Batting Title
It was closer than I thought. Average and Power to A-rod. OBP and Speed to Bonds. Bonds has a few more awards, A-Rod a bit more black ink. Neither have been known during this same stage of each's career to be good playoff performers.
Considering how close it is, admittedly moreso than I thought, the clear winner is still A-Rod. Even if you consider them even offensively, or EVEN if you give a slight nod to Bonds because you value his strengths strategy wise, the SS/3B positoin that Arod holds completely puts this into his lap.
Again, only one other SS was as good offensively. EVER. And third might not be very close.
Over the first 13 seasons for both players, which gets Arod to this year and Bonds the last year he was both healthy and not obviously going to roid direction. I would say a pretty fair sample, maybe the most fair for these two players.
Bonds averages:
8400 ABs
0.291 Avd
17.4 AB/HR
0.411 OBP
0.561 SLG
0.972 OPS
445 SBs
MVP: 3 First, 1 Second, 1 Fourth, 2 Fifth
GG: 8 in OF
SS: 7 in OF
Four OBP Title
One HR Title
One RBI Title
Arod
7850 ABs
0.305 AVG
15.7 AB/HR
0.385 OBP
0.572 SLG
0.957 OPS
241 SB
MVP: 2 First, 2 Second, 1 Third
GG: 2 @ SS
SS: 7@ SS 1 @ 3B
One Batting Title
Five HR Titles
Two RBI Titles
One Batting Title
It was closer than I thought. Average and Power to A-rod. OBP and Speed to Bonds. Bonds has a few more awards, A-Rod a bit more black ink. Neither have been known during this same stage of each's career to be good playoff performers.
Considering how close it is, admittedly moreso than I thought, the clear winner is still A-Rod. Even if you consider them even offensively, or EVEN if you give a slight nod to Bonds because you value his strengths strategy wise, the SS/3B positoin that Arod holds completely puts this into his lap.
Again, only one other SS was as good offensively. EVER. And third might not be very close.
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The Man from Laramie
Footballguy
Who?I think a key tipping point in your analysis is that A-Rod started much younger. When you compare careers through certain ages, which will likely be a better predictor of career stats, A-Rod is pretty much blowing Bonds away.
Night Hawks
Footballguy
I disagree here. He had a sweet swing and a great eye, like he still does. He was very Griffey Jr.-esque in his swing before there even was a Griffey Jr.-esque swing. I think one of the stupidest things anyone has ever done in sports is if Barry did 'roids (and for the record, i think he did). Without them, I think he stays healthy and still surpasses 650 HR.
Koya
Footballguy
I was trying to be as fair to Bonds as possible, since I have been siding with A-rod. So a conservative approach was called for. You do point out something important - ARod was in the majors very young, years that Barry was developing not at the expense of his stats. I don't know ab out A-Rod blowing Bonds away though. Bonds did have some better peak OPS+ years if I recall correctly as well. But it is still Arod in my book.ETA: Honus Wagner, though it was a different Era of baseball, is still considered the best ever offensive SS.
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Mr. Know-It-All
Footballguy
I agree. ARod is no slouch, but Bonds may be the best overall player since......Wille Mays maybe?ARod wasn't the best player on the team when he was in Seattle (Junior was).He is still a no brainer first ballot HoF, but Bonds was just speaking the truth.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
You realize, though, that he won't be.
avoiding injuries
Footballguy
A-Rod???
cobalt_27
Footballguy
Reading skills slow today. Thought he was talking about Bonds. A-Rod will absolutely be voted on the 1st ballot.
Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
You've got it backwards. Barry was considered a good defensive player because he would show-boat on some easy flies and got the benefit of name-recognition. He may have been in the upper-tier of LFers of his time, but only because that's where you stick players that don't field all that well.
The Man from Laramie
Footballguy
I think what a lot of people fail to understand is that Bonds' career before the 21st century is a fantastic one, that almost certainly would have placed him in the HOF, but...What makes him arguably the best offensive power of all time was his production between 2001-2004, the likes of which had never been seen before in the game, nonetheless by a guy his age.
So when we're talking about Bonds vs. A-Rod, the interesting thing to note is that A-Rod is just now about 5 years younger than Bonds was when he hit his "stride." A-Rod's stats through age 31 are almost all better than those of Bonds', but he still probably won't finish with some of the gaudy career numbers Bonds has because of the "second peak" of Bonds' career (which was much better than his or anyone for that matter's first peak) that A-Rod will likely never have.
Between 2000 and 2004, Bonds hit 142 MORE home runs than statistical projections would have had him hit. While there do exist statistical anomalies, it's hard to imagine that all 142 of those dingers came naturally.
Essentially, accepting Bonds achievements as being untainted by steroids means accepting that a 36 year old was able to do things that 25-30 year olds have never been able to do, even though his skills had declined not far out of the range of prediction between the ages of 30 and 35. As I'll show later, Bonds' numbers in each season between 2001-2004 when he was 36-39 years old were better than those of anyone not named Ted Williams in any year of their career at any age, even during their prime.
The statistic "equivalent average" is made to encapsulate all offensive attributes into one metric that sits on approximately the same scale as batting average, so we're comfortable with it. A .260 is about average, .300 very good, .200 they'll call you Mendoza, .400 they'll put you in Cooperstown.
Here is how Bonds fared in that regard:
Age Year Team EQA21 1986 PIT-N 0.28022 1987 PIT-N 0.28323 1988 PIT-N 0.31624 1989 PIT-N 0.30225 1990 PIT-N 0.34426 1991 PIT-N 0.34127 1992 PIT-N 0.37728 1993 SF_-N 0.37429 1994 SF_-N 0.34730 1995 SF_-N 0.34131 1996 SF_-N 0.36232 1997 SF_-N 0.35033 1998 SF_-N 0.34734 1999 SF_-N 0.32835 2000 SF_-N 0.36036 2001 SF_-N 0.42737 2002 SF_-N 0.45338 2003 SF_-N 0.41239 2004 SF_-N 0.45640 2005 SF_-N 0.34341 2006 SF_-N 0.34242 2007 SF_-N 0.377Here are similar numbers for Ruth:
Code:
Age Year Team EQA19 1914 BOS-A 0.180 20 1915 BOS-A 0.335 21 1916 BOS-A 0.280 22 1917 BOS-A 0.319 23 1918 BOS-A 0.343 24 1919 BOS-A 0.378 25 1920 NY_-A 0.411 26 1921 NY_-A 0.391 27 1922 NY_-A 0.343 28 1923 NY_-A 0.401 29 1924 NY_-A 0.383 30 1925 NY_-A 0.298 31 1926 NY_-A 0.395 32 1927 NY_-A 0.382 33 1928 NY_-A 0.371 34 1929 NY_-A 0.352 35 1930 NY_-A 0.372 36 1931 NY_-A 0.384 37 1932 NY_-A 0.377 38 1933 NY_-A 0.344 39 1934 NY_-A 0.334 40 1935 BOS-N 0.298
Code:
Age Year Team EQA20 1939 BOS-A 0.33221 1940 BOS-A 0.34322 1941 BOS-A 0.42023 1942 BOS-A 0.38827 1946 BOS-A 0.39228 1947 BOS-A 0.38329 1948 BOS-A 0.36830 1949 BOS-A 0.36331 1950 BOS-A 0.33932 1951 BOS-A 0.33833 1952 BOS-A 0.41734 1953 BOS-A 0.40535 1954 BOS-A 0.37336 1955 BOS-A 0.36937 1956 BOS-A 0.34538 1957 BOS-A 0.39839 1958 BOS-A 0.35040 1959 BOS-A 0.28141 1960 BOS-A 0.356
Code:
Age Year Team EQA20 1954 MIL-N 0.27121 1955 MIL-N 0.31722 1956 MIL-N 0.32523 1957 MIL-N 0.34224 1958 MIL-N 0.33125 1959 MIL-N 0.36126 1960 MIL-N 0.32927 1961 MIL-N 0.33328 1962 MIL-N 0.33729 1963 MIL-N 0.35130 1964 MIL-N 0.33531 1965 MIL-N 0.33332 1966 ATL-N 0.32033 1967 ATL-N 0.33534 1968 ATL-N 0.32535 1969 ATL-N 0.33436 1970 ATL-N 0.31937 1971 ATL-N 0.35138 1972 ATL-N 0.317Aaron was not as good an overall hitter as Bonds, Ruth, nor Williams
It is possible to have years in the latter part of your career where you do much better than the year before
Bonds is the only player here that had sustained abnormal success in the latter part of his career, even though his early years in San Francisco had him following a much more normal career trajectory for a 30 year old player.And I think it's that last bullet that matters most. I think steroids go a long way into explaining that sustained success after age 35, and I think that if we take those gaudy 4-5 years away from him and replace it with those of any of the other greats I listed, Barry Bonds is a HOFer, but nowhere near the greatest hitter of all time, as the now tainted stats half-make the case for.
The Man from Laramie
Footballguy
Barry is a fantastic LF by any stats. The question around fielding for Bonds is, for the purpose of the A-Rod comparison, even if he were the greatest LF of all time, could he survive a season at SS or even 3B?
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Mr. Know-It-All
Footballguy
I am not a Bonds fan, but I wonder why not so much talk is being centered on whether or not ARod is "enhanced"? Isn't he a lot bigger now as well?
Sadly, except for David Eckstein and Julio Lugo, this question will be asked of every player form this era as there are no teeth in the enforcement policy.
Sadly, except for David Eckstein and Julio Lugo, this question will be asked of every player form this era as there are no teeth in the enforcement policy.
The Man from Laramie
Footballguy
You're missing the point. What is so egregious about Bonds is that he was a better player at 37 than 27. While we will never know whether A-Rod was juicing at 27, we're pretty certain he is not juicing now, and presumably won't be for the next 10 years.Records like all time HR are made in how long you can maintain a high HR rate, or in Bonds' case, whether you can play the best baseball of your career at a very old age.BTW- A lot of the guys that were busted for steroids look a lot more like Eckstein and Lugo than Bonds. You can make the case that they have more to gain financially from juicing than guys who already have great HR prowess would.Mr. Know-It-All said:
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The Man from Laramie
Footballguy
I laughed today when mlb.com had highlights including a bunch of diving catches and Manny's "running catch"
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
2007 Bonds (at 42): .369 EQA
Bonds career: .356
2007 ARod (at 31): .338 EQA
ARod career: .311
Yes, Bonds is a ####. Yes, Bonds took steroids.
But, from an on the field standpoint, it's not close.
Bonds career: .356
2007 ARod (at 31): .338 EQA
ARod career: .311
Yes, Bonds is a ####. Yes, Bonds took steroids.
But, from an on the field standpoint, it's not close.
Why is it wrong for Bonds to say he is the better player than AROD?? I personally think Bonds is correct. He and Griffey were better than Arod for his generation. Heck you can argue that Arod is not even the best player on the Yankee teams and Seattle teams that he played on.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
I'll answer my own question. I just looked it up, Aaron 2297 to Bonds 1979.Aaron holds the MLB records for the the most career runs batted in (2,297), the most career extra base hits (1,477); and the most career total bases (6,856). He is also in the top five for career hits and runs. Just think, he didn't even need the 'ROIDS.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
Even after Jose outs him in his next book?cobalt_27 said:avoiding injuries said:Reading skills slow today. Thought he was talking about Bonds. A-Rod will absolutely be voted on the 1st ballot.
Are you sure that he did not use the 'Roids? We have no proof that he did not use any performance enhancing drugs. Roids were around at that time and there was no testing. Like Bonds whom has not failed a test we have no "proof" that he did or did not.I am not saying he did, but to just say that he did not need roids we do not know if he did or did not.
Keith Lewis
Footballguy
Aaron isn't half the complete ball player Bonds is anyhow, with roids, without roids. Bonds would be a top 3 baseball player of all time without the 73 homerun record, if he had only 400 homers in his career. Bonds is just that good, Aaron was an above average baseball player, nothing special.
cobalt_27
Footballguy
It would not shock me if it came out (beyond Canseco's tell-all) that A-Rod used steroids/HGH. And, if it does come out that he was a user, I think voters will give A-Rod the same treatment: no first ballot.Both will get in, no question. But, the steroid factor will influence enough baseball writers to snub them in Round 1.
Bonds will be a 1st ballot HOF entry. His numbers pre steriod era are enough to get him in. Plus what the All Star game showed is that hitting Homeruns in San Francisco is not easy and Bonds has done it even at his age at this time.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
This is laughable. Did you ever see Aaron play? I guess his other records and place in the top 5 in others mean nothing? By saying that Aaron wasn't anything special shows you don't know what you're talking about
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