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Brady vs. Manning in the playoffs -- Round 4 (1 Viewer)

Well?

  • Brady and the Pats win

    Votes: 78 36.8%

  • Manning and the Broncos win

    Votes: 134 63.2%
  • Total voters
    212
Shanahanigans said:
Anarchy99 said:
General Tso said:
Just curious, do all the Pats haters out there really believe that the Pats obtained a significant competitive edge with spying? Wasn't the practice realtively commonplace back then? Isn't it just that the Pats did it after the NFL ban?

I should probably learn more about this, but I swear it's all you hear about when it comes to Brady or Belichek. I know people are doing it just to get under the skin of Pats fans, but there's an old saying that if you keep saying something long enough you'll eventually start believing it. I really think there's some people who believe deep down that the entire source of Brady and Belichek's greatness was derived out of cheating.
Click to expand...
From what I remember, the Pats taped signals from a spot in the stadium that was not allowed (on the field). I also believe that teams were allowed to use cameras and record things in the stadium, so it was more of a logistics thing. Also, many teams over the years have tried to interpret or stretch the rules and have pushed the limits of fair play. Who knows if the Patriots gained much of an advantage doing what they did. But the commish sent out a notice that teams were to stop the practice and NE got caught right after that.

I look at it like people driving 57 mph in a 55 mph zone. Sure, technically it's speeding and against the law.
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Regardless of whether or not the Pats won their super bowls because of spygate (from what I can tell it played little to no effect), I find it funny that you make an analogy to the tiniest crime imaginable. Belichick was fined the maximum amount of money that an individual can possibly be fined, and the Pats forfeited a 1st Round pick. It is the largest punishment I've ever seen occur in the NFL. That doesn't happen if it's the equivalent of going 2 over in a 55.
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IMO, the penalty stemmed more from defying the edict/warning of the commissioner and the league wide communication to stop doing it than the infraction itself. Then in the proceeding league investigation and interviews with BB, the Pats essentially refused to admit that they did something wrong. Combining those two led to the loss of the draft pick as far as I am concerned.

 
One thing in Brady's favor: He has never lost to a Del Rio defense.

7-0

Sure, five of the wins were against the Jaguars, but there's no question Brady and Bill are comfortable and familiar with how to attack dopey Del Rio.

 
I remember reading a great post that showed how the difference between many of Peyton's losses and Brady's wins (playoff) was a result of kickers.

Can anyone direct me to that post or possibly requote?

TIA

 
maf005 said:
I remember reading a great post that showed how the difference between many of Peyton's losses and Brady's wins (playoff) was a result of kickers.

Can anyone direct me to that post or possibly requote?

TIA
Click to expand...
Yeah, it was a great post. I really learned something from that.

 
In playoff games decided by a kicker, Peyton Manning is 0-5. Each and every time Manning put his team in position to win the game with a FG in the final minutes or OT, his kicker has missed. conversely, each and every time Manning's opponent put themselves in position to win with a FG in the final minutes or OT, they convert. Each and every time. Mannings composite passer rating in these games: 91.1.

The guy many think of as more clutch, Tom Brady, is 6-0 in similar situations. In these 6 wins, he had a passer rating of 73.8.

To put a little more perspective: If Brady had equal luck with playoff kicking game as Manning, he would have a 9-9 record with one SB win (2004), one SB loss (2007), and no other championship game appearances.

The difference in playoff game perception between Manning and Brady was written by Mike Vanderjagt, Nate Kaeding, Adam Vinateri, Nick Folk, Stephen Gotskowski, Justin Tucker, and Billy Cundiff.
Click to expand...
Granted, some of the facts are a little off there (for example, Vinatieri hit the FG to give the Colts the lead in the 2010 playoff loss after Manning led them down the field, but then the Jets kicker beat them at the end), but all in all, it demonstrates pretty clearly the difference between the two when it comes to luck with kickers in playoff games.

 
Ghost Rider said:
In playoff games decided by a kicker, Peyton Manning is 0-5. Each and every time Manning put his team in position to win the game with a FG in the final minutes or OT, his kicker has missed. conversely, each and every time Manning's opponent put themselves in position to win with a FG in the final minutes or OT, they convert. Each and every time. Mannings composite passer rating in these games: 91.1.The guy many think of as more clutch, Tom Brady, is 6-0 in similar situations. In these 6 wins, he had a passer rating of 73.8.

To put a little more perspective: If Brady had equal luck with playoff kicking game as Manning, he would have a 9-9 record with one SB win (2004), one SB loss (2007), and no other championship game appearances.

The difference in playoff game perception between Manning and Brady was written by Mike Vanderjagt, Nate Kaeding, Adam Vinateri, Nick Folk, Stephen Gotskowski, Justin Tucker, and Billy Cundiff.
Click to expand...
Granted, some of the facts are a little off there (for example, Vinatieri hit the FG to give the Colts the lead in the 2010 playoff loss after Manning led them down the field, but then the Jets kicker beat them at the end), but all in all, it demonstrates pretty clearly the difference between the two when it comes to luck with kickers in playoff games.
Click to expand...
As far as the Vinatieri in NE stuff goes, I'm not sure I buy into things as the original post suggests. For example, Vinatieri's 3 SB winning kicks were in tie games. So even if he missed, the Pats could still have won the game in overtime.

Certainly the same argument could be used (or attempted to be used) about all other facets of the game. If the defense had one more stop, if ONLY ONE PLAY a game went the other way, etc.

In Brady's case, Reche Caldwell dropped a pass that would have most likely given the Pats a win against IND in the 2006 AFCC (and they stood an excellent chance of beating the Bears). NE was two circus catches away from potentially beating the Giants twice in the SB. If we want to play things out using that logic, a case could be made that Brady could have won 6 SBs by now (and someone on talk radio was trying to make that argument the other day).

I am not saying that, as the only thing that matters is what went down in the scorebook. In Manning's case, we could analyze the rest of those games with a fine tooth comb. Maybe he had a pick in the red zone that cost the Colts points. Maybe they had to settle for a FG earlier in the game instead of a TD from inside the 2 yard line. Bottom line, it's easy to point fingers at a kicker when Manning could quite easily had a role in the outcome (even if seemingly the outcome hinged on a kick). To play devil's advocate here, had the Colts offense scored two more TDs in those games, the kicker would not have needed to make a kick at the end of the game.

Also, I love how many people will forever and a day try to pin games on JUST the QBs. There's offense, defense, special teams, coaching, etc. that factor into things, yet somehow it's the QBs fault in losses or he's the hero in victories.

Playing out things with Brady the opposite direction, had Vinatieri missed his kicks and the Pats went on to lose the coin tosses and the defense allowed FGs on the first drives in OT for each of those games, Brady could be 0-5 in Super Bowls WHEN HE DID NOT SNAP THE BALL EVEN ONE MORE TIME. So Brady's role and production would not change at all, yet his legacy would be COMPLETLEY different.

 
Exactly. We could pick apart just about every postseason Brady and Manning have played and change a play or two and the outcomes are suddenly different (except the Colts 41-0 loss to the Jets or the Patriots 33-14 loss to the Ravens).

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Anarchy99 said:
Ghost Rider said:
In playoff games decided by a kicker, Peyton Manning is 0-5. Each and every time Manning put his team in position to win the game with a FG in the final minutes or OT, his kicker has missed. conversely, each and every time Manning's opponent put themselves in position to win with a FG in the final minutes or OT, they convert. Each and every time. Mannings composite passer rating in these games: 91.1.The guy many think of as more clutch, Tom Brady, is 6-0 in similar situations. In these 6 wins, he had a passer rating of 73.8.

To put a little more perspective: If Brady had equal luck with playoff kicking game as Manning, he would have a 9-9 record with one SB win (2004), one SB loss (2007), and no other championship game appearances.

The difference in playoff game perception between Manning and Brady was written by Mike Vanderjagt, Nate Kaeding, Adam Vinateri, Nick Folk, Stephen Gotskowski, Justin Tucker, and Billy Cundiff.
Click to expand...
Granted, some of the facts are a little off there (for example, Vinatieri hit the FG to give the Colts the lead in the 2010 playoff loss after Manning led them down the field, but then the Jets kicker beat them at the end), but all in all, it demonstrates pretty clearly the difference between the two when it comes to luck with kickers in playoff games.
Click to expand...
As far as the Vinatieri in NE stuff goes, I'm not sure I buy into things as the original post suggests. For example, Vinatieri's 3 SB winning kicks were in tie games. So even if he missed, the Pats could still have won the game in overtime.

Certainly the same argument could be used (or attempted to be used) about all other facets of the game. If the defense had one more stop, if ONLY ONE PLAY a game went the other way, etc.

In Brady's case, Reche Caldwell dropped a pass that would have most likely given the Pats a win against IND in the 2006 AFCC (and they stood an excellent chance of beating the Bears). NE was two circus catches away from potentially beating the Giants twice in the SB. If we want to play things out using that logic, a case could be made that Brady could have won 6 SBs by now (and someone on talk radio was trying to make that argument the other day).

I am not saying that, as the only thing that matters is what went down in the scorebook. In Manning's case, we could analyze the rest of those games with a fine tooth comb. Maybe he had a pick in the red zone that cost the Colts points. Maybe they had to settle for a FG earlier in the game instead of a TD from inside the 2 yard line. Bottom line, it's easy to point fingers at a kicker when Manning could quite easily had a role in the outcome (even if seemingly the outcome hinged on a kick). To play devil's advocate here, had the Colts offense scored two more TDs in those games, the kicker would not have needed to make a kick at the end of the game.

Also, I love how many people will forever and a day try to pin games on JUST the QBs. There's offense, defense, special teams, coaching, etc. that factor into things, yet somehow it's the QBs fault in losses or he's the hero in victories.

Playing out things with Brady the opposite direction, had Vinatieri missed his kicks and the Pats went on to lose the coin tosses and the defense allowed FGs on the first drives in OT for each of those games, Brady could be 0-5 in Super Bowls WHEN HE DID NOT SNAP THE BALL EVEN ONE MORE TIME. So Brady's role and production would not change at all, yet his legacy would be COMPLETLEY different.
Click to expand...
This post does a great job addressing the fallacy of giving too much credit to QBs for wins, and too much b lame for losses. Football is a game of inches, and is a team game; this fact is largely ignored by the media and ignorant fans. Is Jim Kelly any better of a QB if Scott Norwood doesn't push a field goal? No. Is Peyton Manning any better if Vanderjagt doesn't miss? No. Is Alex Smith any better of a QB if a fumble doesn't bounce right into Luck's hands? No. Is Brady somehow better because Lee Evans dropped a touchdown pass? No. Beyond that the playoffs represent such a small sample size that it is silly to base the majority of someone's legacy on it.

Bring on the "Thanks Captain Obvious" responses.

 
Anarchy99 said:
Ghost Rider said:
In playoff games decided by a kicker, Peyton Manning is 0-5. Each and every time Manning put his team in position to win the game with a FG in the final minutes or OT, his kicker has missed. conversely, each and every time Manning's opponent put themselves in position to win with a FG in the final minutes or OT, they convert. Each and every time. Mannings composite passer rating in these games: 91.1.The guy many think of as more clutch, Tom Brady, is 6-0 in similar situations. In these 6 wins, he had a passer rating of 73.8.

To put a little more perspective: If Brady had equal luck with playoff kicking game as Manning, he would have a 9-9 record with one SB win (2004), one SB loss (2007), and no other championship game appearances.

The difference in playoff game perception between Manning and Brady was written by Mike Vanderjagt, Nate Kaeding, Adam Vinateri, Nick Folk, Stephen Gotskowski, Justin Tucker, and Billy Cundiff.
Click to expand...
Granted, some of the facts are a little off there (for example, Vinatieri hit the FG to give the Colts the lead in the 2010 playoff loss after Manning led them down the field, but then the Jets kicker beat them at the end), but all in all, it demonstrates pretty clearly the difference between the two when it comes to luck with kickers in playoff games.
Click to expand...
As far as the Vinatieri in NE stuff goes, I'm not sure I buy into things as the original post suggests. For example, Vinatieri's 3 SB winning kicks were in tie games. So even if he missed, the Pats could still have won the game in overtime.

Certainly the same argument could be used (or attempted to be used) about all other facets of the game. If the defense had one more stop, if ONLY ONE PLAY a game went the other way, etc.

In Brady's case, Reche Caldwell dropped a pass that would have most likely given the Pats a win against IND in the 2006 AFCC (and they stood an excellent chance of beating the Bears). NE was two circus catches away from potentially beating the Giants twice in the SB. If we want to play things out using that logic, a case could be made that Brady could have won 6 SBs by now (and someone on talk radio was trying to make that argument the other day).

I am not saying that, as the only thing that matters is what went down in the scorebook. In Manning's case, we could analyze the rest of those games with a fine tooth comb. Maybe he had a pick in the red zone that cost the Colts points. Maybe they had to settle for a FG earlier in the game instead of a TD from inside the 2 yard line. Bottom line, it's easy to point fingers at a kicker when Manning could quite easily had a role in the outcome (even if seemingly the outcome hinged on a kick). To play devil's advocate here, had the Colts offense scored two more TDs in those games, the kicker would not have needed to make a kick at the end of the game.

Also, I love how many people will forever and a day try to pin games on JUST the QBs. There's offense, defense, special teams, coaching, etc. that factor into things, yet somehow it's the QBs fault in losses or he's the hero in victories.

Playing out things with Brady the opposite direction, had Vinatieri missed his kicks and the Pats went on to lose the coin tosses and the defense allowed FGs on the first drives in OT for each of those games, Brady could be 0-5 in Super Bowls WHEN HE DID NOT SNAP THE BALL EVEN ONE MORE TIME. So Brady's role and production would not change at all, yet his legacy would be COMPLETLEY different.
Click to expand...
I dont consider the mario manningham catch vs NE some miracle catch like the tyree on, sorry

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
Anarchy99 said:
Ghost Rider said:
In playoff games decided by a kicker, Peyton Manning is 0-5. Each and every time Manning put his team in position to win the game with a FG in the final minutes or OT, his kicker has missed. conversely, each and every time Manning's opponent put themselves in position to win with a FG in the final minutes or OT, they convert. Each and every time. Mannings composite passer rating in these games: 91.1.The guy many think of as more clutch, Tom Brady, is 6-0 in similar situations. In these 6 wins, he had a passer rating of 73.8.

To put a little more perspective: If Brady had equal luck with playoff kicking game as Manning, he would have a 9-9 record with one SB win (2004), one SB loss (2007), and no other championship game appearances.

The difference in playoff game perception between Manning and Brady was written by Mike Vanderjagt, Nate Kaeding, Adam Vinateri, Nick Folk, Stephen Gotskowski, Justin Tucker, and Billy Cundiff.
Click to expand...
Granted, some of the facts are a little off there (for example, Vinatieri hit the FG to give the Colts the lead in the 2010 playoff loss after Manning led them down the field, but then the Jets kicker beat them at the end), but all in all, it demonstrates pretty clearly the difference between the two when it comes to luck with kickers in playoff games.
Click to expand...
As far as the Vinatieri in NE stuff goes, I'm not sure I buy into things as the original post suggests. For example, Vinatieri's 3 SB winning kicks were in tie games. So even if he missed, the Pats could still have won the game in overtime.

Certainly the same argument could be used (or attempted to be used) about all other facets of the game. If the defense had one more stop, if ONLY ONE PLAY a game went the other way, etc.

In Brady's case, Reche Caldwell dropped a pass that would have most likely given the Pats a win against IND in the 2006 AFCC (and they stood an excellent chance of beating the Bears). NE was two circus catches away from potentially beating the Giants twice in the SB. If we want to play things out using that logic, a case could be made that Brady could have won 6 SBs by now (and someone on talk radio was trying to make that argument the other day).

I am not saying that, as the only thing that matters is what went down in the scorebook. In Manning's case, we could analyze the rest of those games with a fine tooth comb. Maybe he had a pick in the red zone that cost the Colts points. Maybe they had to settle for a FG earlier in the game instead of a TD from inside the 2 yard line. Bottom line, it's easy to point fingers at a kicker when Manning could quite easily had a role in the outcome (even if seemingly the outcome hinged on a kick). To play devil's advocate here, had the Colts offense scored two more TDs in those games, the kicker would not have needed to make a kick at the end of the game.

Also, I love how many people will forever and a day try to pin games on JUST the QBs. There's offense, defense, special teams, coaching, etc. that factor into things, yet somehow it's the QBs fault in losses or he's the hero in victories.

Playing out things with Brady the opposite direction, had Vinatieri missed his kicks and the Pats went on to lose the coin tosses and the defense allowed FGs on the first drives in OT for each of those games, Brady could be 0-5 in Super Bowls WHEN HE DID NOT SNAP THE BALL EVEN ONE MORE TIME. So Brady's role and production would not change at all, yet his legacy would be COMPLETLEY different.
Click to expand...
I dont consider the mario manningham catch vs NE some miracle catch like the tyree on, sorry
Click to expand...
No one should. It was fantastic placement by Eli and great tracking by Manningham considering he expect to get killed on the play. It isn't something that had no reason to happen like the Tyree catch.

 
Brady, Belichick, the points, and the outright win. Still taking them all. My guess is Peyton is sweating and nervous, and Tom is sweating on Giselle. And that's the difference right there.

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
devouredbychaos said:
Reegus said:
The real question we should ask is what is the win loss record vs each other without patriots cheating?
Click to expand...
When did the Patriots cheat? The Seahawks are cheaters, yet no one brings them up.
Click to expand...
LOL, yeah the pats were punished by the league for ####s n giggles
Click to expand...
And yet they were never accused of cheating. Keep trolling though.

 
bicycle_seat_sniffer said:
devouredbychaos said:
Reegus said:
The real question we should ask is what is the win loss record vs each other without patriots cheating?
Click to expand...
When did the Patriots cheat? The Seahawks are cheaters, yet no one brings them up.
Click to expand...
LOL, yeah the pats were punished by the league for ####s n giggles
Click to expand...
So were the Saints and half the Seahawks team..your point?

 
This is the first road playoff game for Brady since the 2006 loss against Manning's Colts.

Huge game for Brady to silence all the critics.

 
kyoun1e said:
cstu said:
This is the first road playoff game for Brady since the 2006 loss against Manning's Colts.

Huge game for Brady to silence all the critics.
Click to expand...
Manning is the one that needs to silence the critics.
Click to expand...
I disagree. Brady is still riding on some clutch FG kicks early in his career and having the benefit of home field advantage for the nearly the past decade.

 
cstu said:
kyoun1e said:
cstu said:
This is the first road playoff game for Brady since the 2006 loss against Manning's Colts.

Huge game for Brady to silence all the critics.
Click to expand...
Manning is the one that needs to silence the critics.
Click to expand...
I disagree. Brady is still riding on some clutch FG kicks early in his career and having the benefit of home field advantage for the nearly the past decade.
Click to expand...
Manning has a whole lot more to lose (and gain) today.

I'd think the majority of the "critics" would agree on that.

 
So if DEN wins (looking pretty likely) but then loses the SB . . . then what for Peyton? Would all of the Brady/Manning talk this week mostly just fade into obscurity?

 
Tom and Bill in the shower crying holding each other. While both thinking how hard it is to win play off games without cheating.

 
Anarchy99 said:
So if DEN wins (looking pretty likely) but then loses the SB . . . then what for Peyton? Would all of the Brady/Manning talk this week mostly just fade into obscurity?
Click to expand...
A Peyton loss would embolden the haters that have been foaming at the mouth for five years. Sensible people would know he's still playing a team game, and in the conversation as the GOAT.

 
Grace Under Pressure said:
Brady, Belichick, the points, and the outright win. Still taking them all. My guess is Peyton is sweating and nervous, and Tom is sweating on Giselle. And that's the difference right there.
Click to expand...
Here to give Peyton credit. He played like a winner, won the game for his team, outcoached Belichick, and deserved to win. I'll be rooting for him to win the SB.

 
Reegus said:
Tom and Bill in the shower crying holding each other. While both thinking how hard it is to win play off games without cheating.
Click to expand...
This is pretty damn funny. Great visual.As expected, Manning was great today. Almost perfect. We'll see how he does in two weeks against a good defense and adverse weather. Now that will be interesting.

 
General Tso said:
Reegus said:
Tom and Bill in the shower crying holding each other. While both thinking how hard it is to win play off games without cheating.
Click to expand...
This is pretty damn funny. Great visual.As expected, Manning was great today. Almost perfect. We'll see how he does in two weeks against a good defense and adverse weather. Now that will be interesting.
Click to expand...
2006 was against a great defense and adverse weather.

 
LMFAO at Raider Nation having to whore himself out as a Patriots fan for a week to end up with this crap today

 
pizzatyme said:
AB in DC said:
SacramentoBob said:
I think this might be the last time we see Brady in the playoffs. No shtick.
Click to expand...
I think you're about a year or two too early.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I mean I can't see anyone in their division stepping up in the next few years. Brady and Belichick can certainly make the playoffs here.
Click to expand...
True, the Pats have benefited from a terrible division for a long time now and it hasn't really changed much. Is Miami really going to push them for a better record next year? I doubt it.

 
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