Bruce Jenner Interview (2 Viewers)

[jonessed]

Transgenders can legally playing HS sports as women in CA. They can also use the women's bathrooms at the school (and elsewhere). Both of these situations seem problematic to me.

I'm sure you can choose to not use the women's bathrooms.

Yes, I choose not to use the women's bathroom. What does that have to do with anything?

You started it.

Started using the women's bathroom?

You are one weird dude.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Transgenders can legally playing HS sports as women in CA. They can also use the women's bathrooms at the school (and elsewhere). Both of these situations seem problematic to me.

I'm sure you can choose to not use the women's bathrooms.

Yes, I choose not to use the women's bathroom. What does that have to do with anything?

You started it.

Started using the women's bathroom?

You are one weird dude.

Damn. Nailed it. I feel bad now.

 

[timschochet]

Transgenders can legally playing HS sports as women in CA. They can also use the women's bathrooms at the school (and elsewhere). Both of these situations seem problematic to me.

the bathrooms don't really bother me though I can see how other people might be concerned. The sports issue is more problematic if it can be shown that there is a competitive issue- for instance a former guy winning track events, etc. If that's not happening it's really not a big issue either IMO.

 

[timschochet]

Anyone else shocked that Tim is speaking so forcefully on a subject he really doesn't know anything about?

I want transgendered people to be treated with respect and equality like everyone else. How much more do I need to know?

A start -- and I mean a start -- would be a reasonable consideration of the means and enforcement by which these ends are to be achieved, not to mention knowledge of what exactly the ends are. For example, one might inquire about what the ends will look like in order for the identity group to achieve "respect and equality."

Because right now, you've flipped from saying that certain ends weren't being sought (and that they were ridiculous, and no court would ever grant it...all of which were incorrect) to now simply stating that it doesn't matter, as long as the nebulous "respect and equality" was being achieved.

This is poor form, a poor debate tactic, and intellectually uncurious and unsatisfying as a matter of persuasion.

edited for RN* But I do appreciate your general contribution to the board and hope to have many productive debates with you in the future. Sincerely, RA.

I grant being surprised at some of the more radical items being sought, and I admit being incurious about it. Because none of these items even if gained will lead to the foundational changes you seem to be concerned about. There's just not enough of these people. So if they're so concerned about going into the bathroom pre-op, then let them. Why should it bother you? My mistake was not to be incurious, but to try and break down the rights in response to your post. My response should have been, let them have what they want.

 

[Raider Nation]

Transgenders can legally playing HS sports as women in CA. They can also use the women's bathrooms at the school (and elsewhere). Both of these situations seem problematic to me.

I'm sure you can choose to not use the women's bathrooms.

Yes, I choose not to use the women's bathroom. What does that have to do with anything?

You started it.

Started using the women's bathroom?You are one weird dude.

Damn. Nailed it. I feel bad now.

You aren't kinda weird? You don't even like Sepinwall.

 

[rockaction]

Anyone else shocked that Tim is speaking so forcefully on a subject he really doesn't know anything about?

I want transgendered people to be treated with respect and equality like everyone else. How much more do I need to know?

A start -- and I mean a start -- would be a reasonable consideration of the means and enforcement by which these ends are to be achieved, not to mention knowledge of what exactly the ends are. For example, one might inquire about what the ends will look like in order for the identity group to achieve "respect and equality."

Because right now, you've flipped from saying that certain ends weren't being sought (and that they were ridiculous, and no court would ever grant it...all of which were incorrect) to now simply stating that it doesn't matter, as long as the nebulous "respect and equality" was being achieved.

This is poor form, a poor debate tactic, and intellectually uncurious and unsatisfying as a matter of persuasion.

edited for RN* But I do appreciate your general contribution to the board and hope to have many productive debates with you in the future. Sincerely, RA.

I grant being surprised at some of the more radical items being sought, and I admit being incurious about it. Because none of these items even if gained will lead to the foundational changes you seem to be concerned about. There's just not enough of these people. So if they're so concerned about going into the bathroom pre-op, then let them. Why should it bother you?My mistake was not to be incurious, but to try and break down the rights in response to your post. My response should have been, let them have what they want.

Means, enforcement methods, and the private interests, both property and personal/moral, of the majority being damned of course.

I also see the notion of identity writ large coming under attack, whereby simple declarations of gender identity, post or pre-op, hold legal weight, and open up a whole host of issues for state and federal courts within our massive bureaucracy to decide. This won't end well, and will definitely get even more esoteric and radical the further we extend our notions of what "gender identity" is while "let[ting] them have what they want." As jonessed points out, our high schools in CA are already quite willing to take discrimination laws and extend them to accommodate declarations of the sort.

The arguments coming from the left -- starting from the movement of sex identification to gender identity -- have been moving towards these sort of willy-nilly declarations all along, and they'll have both normative psychological effects on the younger population and legal effects on property and personal matters for the older ones. It has to. This sort of philosophy and identity-based social politics demands it, and always has.

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

 

[timschochet]

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see the interests of the majority being at all threatened.

 

[The General]

Tim is posting now in threads outside of his own?

Once in a while. My thread is devoted at the moment to the Russian Revolution, so I'm trying not to confuse it with other issues.

That's very considerate.

 

[mr roboto]

Tim, you are conflating 'being inclusive to transgendered people' with 'gender must be self determined.' You think the shift to self determination of gender would ONLY impact transgendered people, and only positively. I'm not sure you are either that naive or that committed to inclusivism but let me give you a hint - this would be greatly abused by non-transgendered people.

 

[Quez]

July 26, 2010

Bruce Jenner went through a similar metamorphosis. Jenner was the Olympic decathlon champion who later went on to become a sort of show biz hanger on; he is probably now most famous as the stepfather to the Kardashian clan. His striking change in appearance since 1976 is generally attributed to plastic surgery. But he was widely rumored to have been one of the first Americans to use steroids, and as such, was not familiar with the fact that you're supposed to cycle them, i.e., use them for brief periods and take breaks in between doses, otherwise you permanently kill your own body's ability to produce testosterone. As a result Jenner's cheeks have had very feminine contours since the 1980s.

Steroid.com

Many fail to consider the post cycle aspect; specifically, how to come off steroids. Of course, at some point in time youre going to come off; there are those who will stay on cycle for indefinite periods of time, hardcore performance enhancers who will be on cycle for an enormous amount of time, but eventually everyone comes off. Understand this here and now; you need to know how to come off steroids, and you need to know how to come off steroids in the most efficient and healthy way possible.

When we supplement with anabolic androgenic steroids for the purpose of performance enhancement, we are providing our body with a massive amount of hormones; far more than it is naturally accustomed to. Once a cycle is complete, once the exogenous hormones are no longer provided something must be done in-order to help the body normalize; otherwise, complications may arise. In many ways, one of the primary factors is testosterone; anabolicandrogenic steroids will suppress our natural testosterone production; the degree of the suppression will vary and be dependent on the steroids were using, but it will occur.

I'm surprised there isn't more of a stink about the guy being a cheater. Society should be shaming him right now for being a disgrace to our country. Instead he is an Olympic hero, and a transgender hero. They should strip him of his medals, and he should be the poster girl on why not to use roids.

 

[Al O'Pecia]

July 26, 2010

Bruce Jenner went through a similar metamorphosis. Jenner was the Olympic decathlon champion who later went on to become a sort of show biz hanger on; he is probably now most famous as the stepfather to the Kardashian clan. His striking change in appearance since 1976 is generally attributed to plastic surgery. But he was widely rumored to have been one of the first Americans to use steroids, and as such, was not familiar with the fact that you're supposed to cycle them, i.e., use them for brief periods and take breaks in between doses, otherwise you permanently kill your own body's ability to produce testosterone. As a result Jenner's cheeks have had very feminine contours since the 1980s.

Steroid.com

Many fail to consider the post cycle aspect; specifically, how to come off steroids. Of course, at some point in time youre going to come off; there are those who will stay on cycle for indefinite periods of time, hardcore performance enhancers who will be on cycle for an enormous amount of time, but eventually everyone comes off. Understand this here and now; you need to know how to come off steroids, and you need to know how to come off steroids in the most efficient and healthy way possible.

When we supplement with anabolic androgenic steroids for the purpose of performance enhancement, we are providing our body with a massive amount of hormones; far more than it is naturally accustomed to. Once a cycle is complete, once the exogenous hormones are no longer provided something must be done in-order to help the body normalize; otherwise, complications may arise. In many ways, one of the primary factors is testosterone; anabolicandrogenic steroids will suppress our natural testosterone production; the degree of the suppression will vary and be dependent on the steroids were using, but it will occur.

I'm surprised there isn't more of a stink about the guy being a cheater. Society should be shaming him right now for being a disgrace to our country. Instead he is an Olympic hero, and a transgender hero. They should strip him of his medals, and he should be the poster girl on why not to use roids.

Meh, that was forty years ago. I'm surprised there isn't more stink about Bruce killing someone just a few months ago.

 

[bigmarc27]

Just saw this - good for him. He seems to have accepted his hand in life and could be a great role model for others.

Have known one person to go through this before albeit the other direction - the suicide rate is unbelievably high. I'm a Republican in the Southeast, but am of a live and let live state of mind. I think more and more are in that line of thinking now.

 

[cstu]

Tim, you are conflating 'being inclusive to transgendered people' with 'gender must be self determined.' You think the shift to self determination of gender would ONLY impact transgendered people, and only positively. I'm not sure you are either that naive or that committed to inclusivism but let me give you a hint - this would be greatly abused by non-transgendered people.

If I ever had to go to prison, damn right it would.

 

[cstu]

July 26, 2010

Bruce Jenner went through a similar metamorphosis. Jenner was the Olympic decathlon champion who later went on to become a sort of show biz hanger on; he is probably now most famous as the stepfather to the Kardashian clan. His striking change in appearance since 1976 is generally attributed to plastic surgery. But he was widely rumored to have been one of the first Americans to use steroids, and as such, was not familiar with the fact that you're supposed to cycle them, i.e., use them for brief periods and take breaks in between doses, otherwise you permanently kill your own body's ability to produce testosterone. As a result Jenner's cheeks have had very feminine contours since the 1980s.

Steroid.com

Many fail to consider the post cycle aspect; specifically, how to come off steroids. Of course, at some point in time you’re going to come off; there are those who will stay on cycle for indefinite periods of time, hardcore performance enhancers who will be on cycle for an enormous amount of time, but eventually everyone comes off. Understand this here and now; you need to know how to come off steroids, and you need to know how to come off steroids in the most efficient and healthy way possible.

When we supplement with anabolic androgenic steroids for the purpose of performance enhancement, we are providing our body with a massive amount of hormones; far more than it is naturally accustomed to. Once a cycle is complete, once the exogenous hormones are no longer provided something must be done in-order to help the body normalize; otherwise, complications may arise. In many ways, one of the primary factors is testosterone; anabolicandrogenic steroids will suppress our natural testosterone production; the degree of the suppression will vary and be dependent on the steroids we’re using, but it will occur.

But when Brody was 18 months old (1984) and Brandon was three, Bruce revealed to Linda the secret that he finally told the world Friday night. She was, she insists, blindsided.

With a 'somber look' Bruce told Linda - who had braced herself for the revelation of perhaps an affair - that he identified as a woman.

'What do you mean you identify as a woman?' she recalled asking. 'What does that mean?

And just as he told Diane Sawyer, Bruce told his wife of four plus years that as long as he could remember, he felt wrong with the reflection staring back at him in the mirror.

According to Linda, her handsome husband told her, 'I have lived in the wrong skin, the wrong body, my whole life. It is a living hell for me, and I really feel that I would like to move forward with the process of becoming a woman, the woman I have always been inside.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3054951/Bruce-Jenner-s-second-wife-reveals-1980s-despair-thought-fleeing-Denmark-sex-change-young-sons-exclaimed-Dad-boobs.html#ixzz3YQj8LrVV

Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[JaxBill]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

 

[MaxThreshold]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

I'm with you on this one.

 

[njherdfan]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

Not at all.

But trans people have, by far, the highest rate of suicides and suicide attempts of any group in the country. This study suggests that 41% of trans people attempt suicide. Hopefully Jenner's interview can do something, even a little, to help lower that statistic.

 

[EYLive]

Just saw this - good for him. He seems to have accepted his hand in life

What? He has done the exact opposite of accept his hand in life.

His hand in life is to be a male. Life/nature/the universe/whatever- delt him that hand. He's trying to fight forces that he has no hope of defeating.

He neither accepts nor loves himself.

 

[timschochet]

Just saw this - good for him. He seems to have accepted his hand in life

What? He has done the exact opposite of accept his hand in life.His hand in life is to be a male. Life/nature/the universe/whatever- delt him that hand. He's trying to fight forces that he has no hope of defeating.

He neither accepts nor loves himself.

Im curious as to how many people agree with these comments.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Anyone else shocked that Tim is speaking so forcefully on a subject he really doesn't know anything about?

I want transgendered people to be treated with respect and equality like everyone else. How much more do I need to know?

A start -- and I mean a start -- would be a reasonable consideration of the means and enforcement by which these ends are to be achieved, not to mention knowledge of what exactly the ends are. For example, one might inquire about what the ends will look like in order for the identity group to achieve "respect and equality."

Because right now, you've flipped from saying that certain ends weren't being sought (and that they were ridiculous, and no court would ever grant it...all of which were incorrect) to now simply stating that it doesn't matter, as long as the nebulous "respect and equality" was being achieved.

This is poor form, a poor debate tactic, and intellectually uncurious and unsatisfying as a matter of persuasion.

edited for RN* But I do appreciate your general contribution to the board and hope to have many productive debates with you in the future. Sincerely, RA.

I grant being surprised at some of the more radical items being sought, and I admit being incurious about it. Because none of these items even if gained will lead to the foundational changes you seem to be concerned about. There's just not enough of these people. So if they're so concerned about going into the bathroom pre-op, then let them. Why should it bother you?My mistake was not to be incurious, but to try and break down the rights in response to your post. My response should have been, let them have what they want.

Means, enforcement methods, and the private interests, both property and personal/moral, of the majority being damned of course.

I also see the notion of identity writ large coming under attack, whereby simple declarations of gender identity, post or pre-op, hold legal weight, and open up a whole host of issues for state and federal courts within our massive bureaucracy to decide. This won't end well, and will definitely get even more esoteric and radical the further we extend our notions of what "gender identity" is while "let[ting] them have what they want." As jonessed points out, our high schools in CA are already quite willing to take discrimination laws and extend them to accommodate declarations of the sort.

The arguments coming from the left -- starting from the movement of sex identification to gender identity -- have been moving towards these sort of willy-nilly declarations all along, and they'll have both normative psychological effects on the younger population and legal effects on property and personal matters for the older ones. It has to. This sort of philosophy and identity-based social politics demands it, and always has.

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

The above-referenced suicide rates lead me to wonder about the soundness of mind and the emotional state of transgendered folks as they are making (those who adopt hormone therapy and surgery) rather momentous decisions. I suppose I am blessed to not have their torments. I hope that I never add to those torments.

 

[Hang 10]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

Not at all.

But trans people have, by far, the highest rate of suicides and suicide attempts of any group in the country. This study suggests that 41% of trans people attempt suicide. Hopefully Jenner's interview can do something, even a little, to help lower that statistic.

I would guess those statistics have a lot to do with the fact these people are obviously extremely confused individuals in need of therapy.

 

[jonessed]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

Not at all.But trans people have, by far, the highest rate of suicides and suicide attempts of any group in the country. This study suggests that 41% of trans people attempt suicide. Hopefully Jenner's interview can do something, even a little, to help lower that statistic.

Maybe. Seems like believing you were born the wrong sex is going to carry a lot of psychological issues. Jenner is in a financial position to try and do something about it. I doubt many others are.

 

[mr roboto]

Just saw this - good for him. He seems to have accepted his hand in life

What? He has done the exact opposite of accept his hand in life.His hand in life is to be a male. Life/nature/the universe/whatever- delt him that hand. He's trying to fight forces that he has no hope of defeating.

He neither accepts nor loves himself.

Im curious as to how many people agree with these comments.

I'm more on this side than the other (celebrating the courage to come out/change your identity etc.)

 

[njherdfan]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

Not at all.

But trans people have, by far, the highest rate of suicides and suicide attempts of any group in the country. This study suggests that 41% of trans people attempt suicide. Hopefully Jenner's interview can do something, even a little, to help lower that statistic.

I would guess those statistics have a lot to do with the fact these people are obviously extremely confused individuals in need of therapy.

Do you also think gay conversion therapy is valid? Because I think the suicide rate is influence by people consistently saying that TG people are disturbed freaks

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

"Well, if it's covered by insurance, I might as well get my weiner cut off"

 

[Hang 10]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

Not at all.But trans people have, by far, the highest rate of suicides and suicide attempts of any group in the country. This study suggests that 41% of trans people attempt suicide. Hopefully Jenner's interview can do something, even a little, to help lower that statistic.

I would guess those statistics have a lot to do with the fact these people are obviously extremely confused individuals in need of therapy.

Do you also think gay conversion therapy is valid? Because I think the suicide rate is influence by people consistently saying that TG people are disturbed freaks

Not sure why you make the leap of comparing gays and people with gender identity problems.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

Not at all.But trans people have, by far, the highest rate of suicides and suicide attempts of any group in the country. This study suggests that 41% of trans people attempt suicide. Hopefully Jenner's interview can do something, even a little, to help lower that statistic.

I would guess those statistics have a lot to do with the fact these people are obviously extremely confused individuals in need of therapy.

Do you also think gay conversion therapy is valid? Because I think the suicide rate is influence by people consistently saying that TG people are disturbed freaks

Not sure why you make the leap of comparing gays and people with gender identity problems.

Not certain that he did. He asked whether there may be a corollary in the experience between converting transgendereds and the subset of homosexuals who have undergone conversion therapy. His question may have been raised by the shockingly high reported suicide rates for each, rates far higher than even those for dentists.

 

[Hang 10]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

Not at all.But trans people have, by far, the highest rate of suicides and suicide attempts of any group in the country. This study suggests that 41% of trans people attempt suicide. Hopefully Jenner's interview can do something, even a little, to help lower that statistic.

I would guess those statistics have a lot to do with the fact these people are obviously extremely confused individuals in need of therapy.

Do you also think gay conversion therapy is valid? Because I think the suicide rate is influence by people consistently saying that TG people are disturbed freaks

Not sure why you make the leap of comparing gays and people with gender identity problems.

Not certain that he did. He asked whether there may be a corollary in the experience between converting transgendered and the subset of homosexuals who have undergone conversion therapy. His question may have been raised by the shockingly high reported suicide rates for each, rates far higher than even those for dentists.

I would say they definitely need therapy if they are suicidal.

 

[jonessed]

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

Yeah, I fail to see why government funded sex changes are necessary. We already know that long-term healthcare costs are going to have to be scaled back quite a bit. We need to be more productive with the funds, not less.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Its a terrible thing when depression, hopelessness, and estrangement have one viewing death as the best option. Clearly those beings are in much pain.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Sometimes I like to sing it out loud.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEXQkrllGbA&list=RDKEXQkrllGbA#t=9

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

Yeah, I fail to see why government funded sex changes are necessary. We already know that long-term healthcare costs are going to have to be scaled back quite a bit. We need to be more productive with the funds, not less.

I view it as a much higher priority than plenty of the end-of-life spending that we do routinely on the elderly.

 

[jonessed]

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

Yeah, I fail to see why government funded sex changes are necessary. We already know that long-term healthcare costs are going to have to be scaled back quite a bit. We need to be more productive with the funds, not less.

I view it as a much higher priority than plenty of the end-of-life spending that we do routinely on the elderly.

So do I, but don't think that's saying much.

 

[matttyl]

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

Yeah, I fail to see why government funded sex changes are necessary. We already know that long-term healthcare costs are going to have to be scaled back quite a bit. We need to be more productive with the funds, not less.

I view it as a much higher priority than plenty of the end-of-life spending that we do routinely on the elderly.

You might be right and you might not.

I had to watch my father in law with his end of life struggle last year. In the 4 months from diagnosis of stage 4 cancer to his death I'd say there was roughly half a million spent on his care shared by the US taxpayer (career military man with benefits). You tell him that he can't go through another round of chemo that may or may not prolong his life because someone's unhappy with being a man or a woman and wants to switch.

 

[General Tso]

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

"Well, if it's covered by insurance, I might as well get my weiner cut off"

I work at a large insurance company and gender reassignment surgery is covered under our company health plan. But not lasik. Something about that just isn't right...

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I view it as a much higher priority than plenty of the end-of-life spending that we do routinely on the elderly.

You might be right and you might not. I had to watch my father in law with his end of life struggle last year. In the 4 months from diagnosis of stage 4 cancer to his death I'd say there was roughly half a million spent on his care shared by the US taxpayer (career military man with benefits). You tell him that he can't go through another round of chemo that may or may not prolong his life because someone's unhappy with being a man or a woman and wants to switch.

I wouldn't want to personally tell anybody that there isn't enough government funding to pay for a medical procedure. Setting policy based on not wanting to tell people bad news seems less than ideal.

 

[matttyl]

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

"Well, if it's covered by insurance, I might as well get my weiner cut off"

I work at a large insurance company and gender reassignment surgery is covered under our company health plan. But not lasik. Something about that just isn't right...

Are you saying the health plan that the employees of the company you work for have cover it; or that the health plans that the insurance company you work for sells cover it? Or both?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

"Well, if it's covered by insurance, I might as well get my weiner cut off"

I work at a large insurance company and gender reassignment surgery is covered under our company health plan. But not lasik. Something about that just isn't right...

What about it doesn't seem right?

 

[matttyl]

I view it as a much higher priority than plenty of the end-of-life spending that we do routinely on the elderly.

You might be right and you might not. I had to watch my father in law with his end of life struggle last year. In the 4 months from diagnosis of stage 4 cancer to his death I'd say there was roughly half a million spent on his care shared by the US taxpayer (career military man with benefits). You tell him that he can't go through another round of chemo that may or may not prolong his life because someone's unhappy with being a man or a woman and wants to switch.

I wouldn't want to personally tell anybody that there isn't enough government funding to pay for a medical procedure. Setting policy based on not wanting to tell people bad news seems less than ideal.

Be it government money or insurance company money shouldn't matter. End of life coverage can be, and routinely is very expensive. My grandmother's was as well (nursing home, 24 hour care at the end). It's also a cost that is incurred by far more people than trans-gender reassignment surgery is, so based on that alone I don't think you can say it's a higher priority.

 

[Sweet J]

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

"Well, if it's covered by insurance, I might as well get my weiner cut off"

I work at a large insurance company and gender reassignment surgery is covered under our company health plan. But not lasik. Something about that just isn't right...

My understanding is that the *vast* majority of transgender people in this country have not undergone gender-reassignment surgery, don't plan on it, and don't want to. It's just not "typical."

 

[El Floppo]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

Not at all.

But trans people have, by far, the highest rate of suicides and suicide attempts of any group in the country. This study suggests that 41% of trans people attempt suicide. Hopefully Jenner's interview can do something, even a little, to help lower that statistic.

jeebus... didn't know about that stat- staggering.

Just ran into a neighborhood dad friend who started transitioning (male to female) about 6 years ago when our kids were 2. He ended up backing out of it then, but started back on that course a couple of years ago and now is one week away from going to Thailand to have this done. Asked her how she felt- excited, whatever... "scared ####less". She's always known- and I've always been appreciative that she's shared it with the friends in the neighborhood- but it's still freaking her out to go through it and I don't blame her. I hope the Bruce interview helped her a little bit- really a great person/parent (only neighborhood friend who showed up the day after our building fire in 100+ degree heat to help us pack up the apartment). but that stat is now making me really nervous.

 

[njherdfan]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

Not at all.But trans people have, by far, the highest rate of suicides and suicide attempts of any group in the country. This study suggests that 41% of trans people attempt suicide. Hopefully Jenner's interview can do something, even a little, to help lower that statistic.

I would guess those statistics have a lot to do with the fact these people are obviously extremely confused individuals in need of therapy.

Do you also think gay conversion therapy is valid? Because I think the suicide rate is influence by people consistently saying that TG people are disturbed freaks

Not sure why you make the leap of comparing gays and people with gender identity problems.

Not certain that he did. He asked whether there may be a corollary in the experience between converting transgendered and the subset of homosexuals who have undergone conversion therapy. His question may have been raised by the shockingly high reported suicide rates for each, rates far higher than even those for dentists.

I would say they definitely need therapy if they are suicidal.

Sure. But I'm unclear if you're saying therapy is appropriate for (1) depression, or (2) to "cure" them from feeling that they're trapped in the wrong gender. More importantly, what do you think is responsible for the depression that TG people often have? Feeling that they're trapped in the wrong body, or society's reactions when they come out as TG?

 

[Sweet J]

Means, enforcement methods, and the private interests, both property and personal/moral, of the majority being damned of course.

I also see the notion of identity writ large coming under attack, whereby simple declarations of gender identity, post or pre-op, hold legal weight, and open up a whole host of issues for state and federal courts within our massive bureaucracy to decide. This won't end well, and will definitely get even more esoteric and radical the further we extend our notions of what "gender identity" is while "let[ting] them have what they want." As jonessed points out, our high schools in CA are already quite willing to take discrimination laws and extend them to accommodate declarations of the sort.

The arguments coming from the left -- starting from the movement of sex identification to gender identity -- have been moving towards these sort of willy-nilly declarations all along, and they'll have both normative psychological effects on the younger population and legal effects on property and personal matters for the older ones. It has to. This sort of philosophy and identity-based social politics demands it, and always has.

eta* Not to mention the entanglement of state-provided health insurance and the movement toward making sure insurance agencies, both state and private, are covering sex reassignment as a "non-elective" surgery, costly to either taxpayers or other benefit holders. And likely using or attempting to use nondiscrimination laws or existing insurance laws to do so. Again, giving somebody "what they want" entails a whole host of claims that, on their face, seem to deal with simply the right to exist but also extend to claims upon others, which the incurious will have never been considered, and could prove to have results that are not in keeping with personal and political freedoms enjoyed by the majority.

I just don't understand the parade of horrors forthcoming for allowing equal-protection laws for transgender individuals.

Let's take the issue of gender-reassignment surgery out of the picture for a second, shall we? (I think this is a red-herring, really). Can someone explain the parade of horribles that will occur if transgenders are given equal protection status?

 

[njherdfan]

Does it make me a bad person if I really don't care what he does and I'm sick of hearing about him?

Not at all.

But trans people have, by far, the highest rate of suicides and suicide attempts of any group in the country. This study suggests that 41% of trans people attempt suicide. Hopefully Jenner's interview can do something, even a little, to help lower that statistic.

jeebus... didn't know about that stat- staggering.

Just ran into a neighborhood dad friend who started transitioning (male to female) about 6 years ago when our kids were 2. He ended up backing out of it then, but started back on that course a couple of years ago and now is one week away from going to Thailand to have this done. Asked her how she felt- excited, whatever... "scared ####less". She's always known- and I've always been appreciative that she's shared it with the friends in the neighborhood- but it's still freaking her out to go through it and I don't blame her. I hope the Bruce interview helped her a little bit- really a great person/parent (only neighborhood friend who showed up the day after our building fire in 100+ degree heat to help us pack up the apartment). but that stat is now making me really nervous.

Yeah, the stat is awful, but I think it's largely because people who are TG get almost uniformly negative reactions from people. I think if a second study was conducted with TG people who received support from friends and family, the number of suicide attempts would be significantly lower. I hope so, at least.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

I view it as a much higher priority than plenty of the end-of-life spending that we do routinely on the elderly.

You might be right and you might not. I had to watch my father in law with his end of life struggle last year. In the 4 months from diagnosis of stage 4 cancer to his death I'd say there was roughly half a million spent on his care shared by the US taxpayer (career military man with benefits). You tell him that he can't go through another round of chemo that may or may not prolong his life because someone's unhappy with being a man or a woman and wants to switch.

I wouldn't want to personally tell anybody that there isn't enough government funding to pay for a medical procedure. Setting policy based on not wanting to tell people bad news seems less than ideal.

Be it government money or insurance company money shouldn't matter. End of life coverage can be, and routinely is very expensive. My grandmother's was as well (nursing home, 24 hour care at the end). It's also a cost that is incurred by far more people than trans-gender reassignment surgery is, so based on that alone I don't think you can say it's a higher priority.

The fact that so many people have expensive end-of-life care is a strike against it, not an argument in its favor. We spend huge sums of money trying to extend people's lives by days or weeks, often when their quality of life is already pretty lousy. I think it's much more important to spend money to greatly improve the quality of people's lives that still have a lot of living to do.

 

[jonessed]

I'm all for improved public funding for mental health services, but it needs to be about actually improving mental health (coping skills, dealing with trauma, etc). It should not be about offering a potpourri of government funded surgical enhancements/changes that may or may not improve self esteem.

 

[Sweet J]

I'm all for improved public funding for mental health services, but it needs to be about actually improving mental health (coping skills, dealing with trauma, etc). It should not be about offering a potpourri of government funded surgical enhancements/changes that may or may not improve self esteem.

This is such a straw man. Jesus H. Christ. Nobody is arguing with you on this.

 

[matttyl]

I view it as a much higher priority than plenty of the end-of-life spending that we do routinely on the elderly.

You might be right and you might not. I had to watch my father in law with his end of life struggle last year. In the 4 months from diagnosis of stage 4 cancer to his death I'd say there was roughly half a million spent on his care shared by the US taxpayer (career military man with benefits). You tell him that he can't go through another round of chemo that may or may not prolong his life because someone's unhappy with being a man or a woman and wants to switch.

I wouldn't want to personally tell anybody that there isn't enough government funding to pay for a medical procedure. Setting policy based on not wanting to tell people bad news seems less than ideal.

Be it government money or insurance company money shouldn't matter. End of life coverage can be, and routinely is very expensive. My grandmother's was as well (nursing home, 24 hour care at the end). It's also a cost that is incurred by far more people than trans-gender reassignment surgery is, so based on that alone I don't think you can say it's a higher priority.

The fact that so many people have expensive end-of-life care is a strike against it, not an argument in its favor. We spend huge sums of money trying to extend people's lives by days or weeks, often when their quality of life is already pretty lousy. I think it's much more important to spend money to greatly improve the quality of people's lives that still have a lot of living to do.

I agree that you can call it a dollar better spent, but again that doesn't mean it's not important to also provide for end of life services as well. Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's unnecessary.

Also, the fact that so many people have expensive end of life care might mean that they all got expensive care earlier in their lives which extended their lives to a point of needing it. That doesn't constitute a "strike against it".

 

[jonessed]

I'm all for improved public funding for mental health services, but it needs to be about actually improving mental health (coping skills, dealing with trauma, etc). It should not be about offering a potpourri of government funded surgical enhancements/changes that may or may not improve self esteem.

This is such a straw man. Jesus H. Christ. Nobody is arguing with you on this.

Fatguy seems to be.