Bush returns his Heisman (1 Viewer)

[Team ROFLCOPTERS]

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the "he didn't do anything wrong, he was only taking a loan essentially" argument. FAIR OR NOT, there are rules. We make decisions in our own lives every day in that context. If I go 80 mph on the highway, I'm not making the case that speeding is not liable to get me a ticket, I'm making the decision that the odds of my getting ticket are slim enough that it's worth the incremental savings on my drive time to speed. It's not like what Bush did wasn't a) egregious relative to the cases they've been able to prove, and b) that he didn't compound the situation by lying about the deal at every turn, in the face of mounting evidence, repeatedly. He got caught. The notion that it's not "fair" he got singled out because theoretically lots of other players have done the same thing is ridiculous. The same can be said of tax evaders, wife beaters, adulterers, people who drink and drive, etc...

I appreciate the dialogue. Let me touch on a couple points. Sure, Bush lied. Lying is a terrible trait but I'm not as down on him doing so in this case. He had already been drafted and cashed in. The guy had to protect his school. Since there wasn't any evidence (there wasn't mounting evidence) he had to lie to not compound the situation by bringing trouble to USC. The reason people were so upset with the penalty to USC is that the act was never proven at the time. It was assumed guilt.I think it's fair to use the theory that 100's of NFL players have done the same thing. It would be closer to compare your first analogy (speeding) then your second ( tax evaders, wife beaters, murderers, etc ) since Bush didn't commit a crime. 100's of NFL players commit real crimes and are adored. The point is that people are being way to harsh. He did wrong but he's trying to make ammends. Let's look at the person and give him the benefit of the doubt that it's his doing instead of villainizing the guy.

 

[Team ROFLCOPTERS]

Why is everyone here so up on their high horses? Some of you act like he killed their dog. Seriously, Bush is a good guy that has never broken a law. He took out what is in essence a loan. I guarantee you their are hundreds of players that are playing right now who has never gotten caught. He has worked harder than most NFL players, opened way more charities than dozens of athletes combined. Sure, he didn't write that but he's been classy his entire career. Why can't we assume he's spearheading this instead of a team of suits?I can't believe people are giving Vince Young the favor here when Vince has been a scumbag since entering the NFL. I mean come on, he and PacMan Jones tryed to pilot a Young NFL Millionare's reality show that chronicalized them and pretty much all the young blockhead athletes going to strip clubs and sponsoring illegal street races. Vince is lucky the NFL didn't allow him to launch it.Let's give Reggie a break here.

VY has not been some scum bag since entering the league.Nice try.

Ok, great. I gave you one of dozens of simple examples that he has. Can you debate otherwise?

 

[Harrassment Panda]

I appreciate the dialogue. Let me touch on a couple points. Sure, Bush lied. Lying is a terrible trait but I'm not as down on him doing so in this case. He had already been drafted and cashed in. The guy had to protect his school. Since there wasn't any evidence (there wasn't mounting evidence) he had to lie to not compound the situation by bringing trouble to USC. The reason people were so upset with the penalty to USC is that the act was never proven at the time. It was assumed guilt.I think it's fair to use the theory that 100's of NFL players have done the same thing. It would be closer to compare your first analogy (speeding) then your second ( tax evaders, wife beaters, murderers, etc ) since Bush didn't commit a crime. 100's of NFL players commit real crimes and are adored. The point is that people are being way to harsh. He did wrong but he's trying to make ammends. Let's look at the person and give him the benefit of the doubt that it's his doing instead of villainizing the guy.

+1He was a kid who made a mistake. Why is he being treated as a scumbag who has somehow tarnished the sanctity of college football? Let's get real here. The NCAA is a corrupt and hypocritical organization. Cases like Reggie Bush are the symptom, not the disease. He got caught up in a bad situation and got in over his head. How many 18 year olds are there who haven't?Not disputing that he did something wrong, but he certainly doesn't deserve his current pariah status. He devotes a ton of his time to charities and inner city kids and has been by all accounts a stand up dude. It's kind of disgusting to see him getting scapegoated for everything. Meanwhile, the real culprits are ignored.

 

[Team ROFLCOPTERS]

Kind of embarrassing for Bush to give it back (knowing it was going to be stripped anyway). I think it's kind of a big deal in that it's the most prestigious award in college football and his name is now attached to it in an unpleasant way. He broke the rules and he knew he was breaking them when he did it. Players at high-profile schools are very aware of what they can and cannot do.I don't know why the NCAA is getting attacked so much in this thread. It reminds me of the Calvin Johnson play. You don't have to like it...but rules are rules. Yes, the NCAA system is flawed in many ways but it's not like they make up rules in secret and players and schools have to guess what they are. They know what's wrong.I understand that the NCAA makes millions off these guys and they seem to get nothing. But in reality they get a free education and a stage to audition for companies that pay them tens of millions UP FRONT. Or they can make hundreds of thousands with companies in Canada. In reality, the few star athletes are the ones selling jerseys and making the schools all that money-- and they all get a platform to make more money by signing their name than most folks will make in a lifetime. The rest of the role players get a free education. Bottom line is Bush didn't do this to be "classy" any more than Nixon resigned to be classy. They both gave up something because they knew it was going to taken away from them soon enough. I have no bad feelings about Bush at all, and I can't even say I would have I'd have done it differently if I was in a dire financial position in college. But I'd be just as wrong for doing it.

I don't believe he or anyone else believes they were going to take the Heisman back. The Heisman commitee has nothing to do with the NCAA. If they took it back they would have a very slippery slope. It would be hypocritical with the many actual crimes that past Heisman winners have commited.

 

[Team ROFLCOPTERS]

I appreciate the dialogue. Let me touch on a couple points. Sure, Bush lied. Lying is a terrible trait but I'm not as down on him doing so in this case. He had already been drafted and cashed in. The guy had to protect his school. Since there wasn't any evidence (there wasn't mounting evidence) he had to lie to not compound the situation by bringing trouble to USC. The reason people were so upset with the penalty to USC is that the act was never proven at the time. It was assumed guilt.I think it's fair to use the theory that 100's of NFL players have done the same thing. It would be closer to compare your first analogy (speeding) then your second ( tax evaders, wife beaters, murderers, etc ) since Bush didn't commit a crime. 100's of NFL players commit real crimes and are adored. The point is that people are being way to harsh. He did wrong but he's trying to make ammends. Let's look at the person and give him the benefit of the doubt that it's his doing instead of villainizing the guy.

+1He was a kid who made a mistake. Why is he being treated as a scumbag who has somehow tarnished the sanctity of college football? Let's get real here. The NCAA is a corrupt and hypocritical organization. Cases like Reggie Bush are the symptom, not the disease.

Thank you. I didn't want to open a can of worms and bring up how corrupt the NCAA is.

 

[sho nuff]

Why is everyone here so up on their high horses? Some of you act like he killed their dog. Seriously, Bush is a good guy that has never broken a law. He took out what is in essence a loan. I guarantee you their are hundreds of players that are playing right now who has never gotten caught. He has worked harder than most NFL players, opened way more charities than dozens of athletes combined. Sure, he didn't write that but he's been classy his entire career. Why can't we assume he's spearheading this instead of a team of suits?I can't believe people are giving Vince Young the favor here when Vince has been a scumbag since entering the NFL. I mean come on, he and PacMan Jones tryed to pilot a Young NFL Millionare's reality show that chronicalized them and pretty much all the young blockhead athletes going to strip clubs and sponsoring illegal street races. Vince is lucky the NFL didn't allow him to launch it.Let's give Reggie a break here.

VY has not been some scum bag since entering the league.Nice try.

Ok, great. I gave you one of dozens of simple examples that he has. Can you debate otherwise?

Given his work in this community, his work with McNair's kids, his work after the floods here. Charity events.And that he has not been in one bit of trouble here in Nashville and the issue at the club this offseason was the first trouble he had been in here.Yes, I guess I can debate otherwise.

 

[Jason Wood]

I'm sorry, but I'm not buying the "he didn't do anything wrong, he was only taking a loan essentially" argument. FAIR OR NOT, there are rules. We make decisions in our own lives every day in that context. If I go 80 mph on the highway, I'm not making the case that speeding is not liable to get me a ticket, I'm making the decision that the odds of my getting ticket are slim enough that it's worth the incremental savings on my drive time to speed. It's not like what Bush did wasn't a) egregious relative to the cases they've been able to prove, and b) that he didn't compound the situation by lying about the deal at every turn, in the face of mounting evidence, repeatedly. He got caught. The notion that it's not "fair" he got singled out because theoretically lots of other players have done the same thing is ridiculous. The same can be said of tax evaders, wife beaters, adulterers, people who drink and drive, etc...

I appreciate the dialogue. Let me touch on a couple points. Sure, Bush lied. Lying is a terrible trait but I'm not as down on him doing so in this case. He had already been drafted and cashed in. The guy had to protect his school. Since there wasn't any evidence (there wasn't mounting evidence) he had to lie to not compound the situation by bringing trouble to USC. The reason people were so upset with the penalty to USC is that the act was never proven at the time. It was assumed guilt.I think it's fair to use the theory that 100's of NFL players have done the same thing. It would be closer to compare your first analogy (speeding) then your second ( tax evaders, wife beaters, murderers, etc ) since Bush didn't commit a crime. 100's of NFL players commit real crimes and are adored. The point is that people are being way to harsh. He did wrong but he's trying to make ammends. Let's look at the person and give him the benefit of the doubt that it's his doing instead of villainizing the guy.

I too appreciate the discussion. I don't disagree that he shouldn't be characterized as some grand mastermind of evil and largesse simply because he's the elite recruit who got caught versus how many that don't. But I also don't ascribe to the idea that someone who cheats should be given a pass simply because others do it, too. He took a risk that he felt was worth it at the time, and sadly (for him), it blew up in his face.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Kind of embarrassing for Bush to give it back (knowing it was going to be stripped anyway). I think it's kind of a big deal in that it's the most prestigious award in college football and his name is now attached to it in an unpleasant way. He broke the rules and he knew he was breaking them when he did it. Players at high-profile schools are very aware of what they can and cannot do.I don't know why the NCAA is getting attacked so much in this thread. It reminds me of the Calvin Johnson play. You don't have to like it...but rules are rules. Yes, the NCAA system is flawed in many ways but it's not like they make up rules in secret and players and schools have to guess what they are. They know what's wrong.I understand that the NCAA makes millions off these guys and they seem to get nothing. But in reality they get a free education and a stage to audition for companies that pay them tens of millions UP FRONT. Or they can make hundreds of thousands with companies in Canada. In reality, the few star athletes are the ones selling jerseys and making the schools all that money-- and they all get a platform to make more money by signing their name than most folks will make in a lifetime. The rest of the role players get a free education. Bottom line is Bush didn't do this to be "classy" any more than Nixon resigned to be classy. They both gave up something because they knew it was going to taken away from them soon enough. I have no bad feelings about Bush at all, and I can't even say I would have I'd have done it differently if I was in a dire financial position in college. But I'd be just as wrong for doing it.

I don't believe he or anyone else believes they were going to take the Heisman back. The Heisman commitee has nothing to do with the NCAA. If they took it back they would have a very slippery slope. It would be hypocritical with the many actual crimes that past Heisman winners have commited.

I disagree. I think they were going to strip him of the Heisman. They can't break into his house and take the trophy, but it would be useless for him to have it at that point. Then people would be asking what he's going to do with it, and it would be a distraction. I don't know if it's hypocritical or not. What crimes have past Heisman winners committed that would render them ineligible for the trophy in the first place?

 

[PatsFanCT]

I appreciate the dialogue. Let me touch on a couple points. Sure, Bush lied. Lying is a terrible trait but I'm not as down on him doing so in this case. He had already been drafted and cashed in. The guy had to protect his school. Since there wasn't any evidence (there wasn't mounting evidence) he had to lie to not compound the situation by bringing trouble to USC. The reason people were so upset with the penalty to USC is that the act was never proven at the time. It was assumed guilt.I think it's fair to use the theory that 100's of NFL players have done the same thing. It would be closer to compare your first analogy (speeding) then your second ( tax evaders, wife beaters, murderers, etc ) since Bush didn't commit a crime. 100's of NFL players commit real crimes and are adored. The point is that people are being way to harsh. He did wrong but he's trying to make ammends. Let's look at the person and give him the benefit of the doubt that it's his doing instead of villainizing the guy.

+1He was a kid who made a mistake. Why is he being treated as a scumbag who has somehow tarnished the sanctity of college football? Let's get real here. The NCAA is a corrupt and hypocritical organization. Cases like Reggie Bush are the symptom, not the disease.

Thank you. I didn't want to open a can of worms and bring up how corrupt the NCAA is.

+another 1The NCAA has no problem with 6'6 behemoths with sixth grade educations getting pushed through college, just so they can trot out a championship team, but if one of their gifted athletes accepts money from an agent, well then let's make an example out him by stripping him of his award and belittling him in the media.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I appreciate the dialogue. Let me touch on a couple points. Sure, Bush lied. Lying is a terrible trait but I'm not as down on him doing so in this case. He had already been drafted and cashed in. The guy had to protect his school. Since there wasn't any evidence (there wasn't mounting evidence) he had to lie to not compound the situation by bringing trouble to USC. The reason people were so upset with the penalty to USC is that the act was never proven at the time. It was assumed guilt.

I think it's fair to use the theory that 100's of NFL players have done the same thing. It would be closer to compare your first analogy (speeding) then your second ( tax evaders, wife beaters, murderers, etc ) since Bush didn't commit a crime. 100's of NFL players commit real crimes and are adored.

The point is that people are being way to harsh. He did wrong but he's trying to make ammends. Let's look at the person and give him the benefit of the doubt that it's his doing instead of villainizing the guy.

+1He was a kid who made a mistake. Why is he being treated as a scumbag who has somehow tarnished the sanctity of college football? Let's get real here. The NCAA is a corrupt and hypocritical organization. Cases like Reggie Bush are the symptom, not the disease. He got caught up in a bad situation and got in over his head. How many 18 year olds are there who haven't?

Not disputing that he did something wrong, but he certainly doesn't deserve his current pariah status. He devotes a ton of his time to charities and inner city kids and has been by all accounts a stand up dude. It's kind of disgusting to see him getting scapegoated for everything. Meanwhile, the real culprits are ignored.

Nobody is stopping him from working with inner city kids, or getting credit for those charitable works. But that has nothing to do with this situation.Your first paragraph sounded like agent cliches. Just a "kid who made a mistake?" A mistake is something you do either by accident or that you regret afterward. He knew what he was doing and felt comfortable lying about it. The NCAA has rules, and he chose to break them. He took their opportunities without abiding by their regulations. And what was his "bad situation?" Taking benefits while auditioning to be a multi-millionaire, then winning the most prestigious award in college football? Poor kid.

Like I said earlier, I'm not saying Bush is a terrible guy. But it's embarrassing to have to give back your Heisman. But he was ineligible to play that year. He broke the rules and he knew he was breaking them.

When someone gets caught breaking the rules, the correct action is to punish them-- not make excuses for them, complain about the rules or attack the rules-makers as hypocrites and say "everybody does it." To me, that's more disgusting. It's what a petulant teenager would do who got grounded for breaking curfew.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I appreciate the dialogue. Let me touch on a couple points. Sure, Bush lied. Lying is a terrible trait but I'm not as down on him doing so in this case. He had already been drafted and cashed in. The guy had to protect his school. Since there wasn't any evidence (there wasn't mounting evidence) he had to lie to not compound the situation by bringing trouble to USC. The reason people were so upset with the penalty to USC is that the act was never proven at the time. It was assumed guilt.

I think it's fair to use the theory that 100's of NFL players have done the same thing. It would be closer to compare your first analogy (speeding) then your second ( tax evaders, wife beaters, murderers, etc ) since Bush didn't commit a crime. 100's of NFL players commit real crimes and are adored.

The point is that people are being way to harsh. He did wrong but he's trying to make ammends. Let's look at the person and give him the benefit of the doubt that it's his doing instead of villainizing the guy.

+1He was a kid who made a mistake. Why is he being treated as a scumbag who has somehow tarnished the sanctity of college football? Let's get real here. The NCAA is a corrupt and hypocritical organization. Cases like Reggie Bush are the symptom, not the disease.

Thank you. I didn't want to open a can of worms and bring up how corrupt the NCAA is.

+another 1The NCAA has no problem with 6'6 behemoths with sixth grade educations getting pushed through college, just so they can trot out a championship team, but if one of their gifted athletes accepts money from an agent, well then let's make an example out him by stripping him of his award and belittling him in the media.

College is voluntary. If they offer you a free education, it should be up to you to take advantage of it. And yes, athletes accepting money from an agent is against the rules. If that's unacceptable, don't play. It's disappointing that, when someone does wrong, the natural reaction is to deflect by pointing the finger at someone else. Nobody hid the rules from Reggie Bush. Nobody tricked him into breaking them. He'll be just fine: He's a well-paid world champion who seems to have a pretty nice life. Good for him; he worked for it. But when he does wrong, it's still wrong.

 

[PatsFanCT]

I appreciate the dialogue. Let me touch on a couple points. Sure, Bush lied. Lying is a terrible trait but I'm not as down on him doing so in this case. He had already been drafted and cashed in. The guy had to protect his school. Since there wasn't any evidence (there wasn't mounting evidence) he had to lie to not compound the situation by bringing trouble to USC. The reason people were so upset with the penalty to USC is that the act was never proven at the time. It was assumed guilt.

I think it's fair to use the theory that 100's of NFL players have done the same thing. It would be closer to compare your first analogy (speeding) then your second ( tax evaders, wife beaters, murderers, etc ) since Bush didn't commit a crime. 100's of NFL players commit real crimes and are adored.

The point is that people are being way to harsh. He did wrong but he's trying to make ammends. Let's look at the person and give him the benefit of the doubt that it's his doing instead of villainizing the guy.

+1He was a kid who made a mistake. Why is he being treated as a scumbag who has somehow tarnished the sanctity of college football? Let's get real here. The NCAA is a corrupt and hypocritical organization. Cases like Reggie Bush are the symptom, not the disease.

Thank you. I didn't want to open a can of worms and bring up how corrupt the NCAA is.

+another 1The NCAA has no problem with 6'6 behemoths with sixth grade educations getting pushed through college, just so they can trot out a championship team, but if one of their gifted athletes accepts money from an agent, well then let's make an example out him by stripping him of his award and belittling him in the media.

College is voluntary. If they offer you a free education, it should be up to you to take advantage of it. And yes, athletes accepting money from an agent is against the rules. If that's unacceptable, don't play. It's disappointing that, when someone does wrong, the natural reaction is to deflect by pointing the finger at someone else. Nobody hid the rules from Reggie Bush. Nobody tricked him into breaking them. He'll be just fine: He's a well-paid world champion who seems to have a pretty nice life. Good for him; he worked for it. But when he does wrong, it's still wrong.

Of course he was wrong, I didn't say otherwise. But the NCAA is extremely hypocritical, and they don't even have a say in the Heisman award. Reggie Bush broke the rules, and the school knew it. they are paying for it, as they should. The Heisman award goes to the best college athlete, which Bush was, not the best college athlete who never got caught breaking any rules playing for a team that doesn't cover up when rules are broken.They could take away all of Bush's stats, strip USC of all their wins, that's fine. The Heisman award is about his play on the field, not about his morals off of it.

 

[Harrassment Panda]

Your first paragraph sounded like agent cliches. Just a "kid who made a mistake?" A mistake is something you do either by accident or that you regret afterward. He knew what he was doing and felt comfortable lying about it. The NCAA has rules, and he chose to break them. He took their opportunities without abiding by their regulations. And what was his "bad situation?" Taking benefits while auditioning to be a multi-millionaire, then winning the most prestigious award in college football? Poor kid.

18 years old. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Of course he was wrong, I didn't say otherwise. But the NCAA is extremely hypocritical, and they don't even have a say in the Heisman award. Reggie Bush broke the rules, and the school knew it. they are paying for it, as they should. The Heisman award goes to the best college athlete, which Bush was, not the best college athlete who never got caught breaking any rules playing for a team that doesn't cover up when rules are broken.They could take away all of Bush's stats, strip USC of all their wins, that's fine. The Heisman award is about his play on the field, not about his morals off of it.

Hiding rule-breaking shouldn't be rewarded with accolades. He might have been the best college athlete on the field, but he wasn't eligible to be a college athlete and shouldn't have been on the field. Again, pointing fingers at another entity doesn't hold water for me. The NCAA could be the most hypocritical organization ever created; they still didn't make Reggie Bush break the rules.

 

[Harrassment Panda]

they still didn't make Reggie Bush break the rules.

No, but they and a lot of the member schools have created an environment that fosters the rule-breaking. They should be held accountable. Like I said, Reggie Bush and those like him are the symptom, not the disease.

 

[CalBear]

Of course he was wrong, I didn't say otherwise. But the NCAA is extremely hypocritical, and they don't even have a say in the Heisman award. Reggie Bush broke the rules, and the school knew it. they are paying for it, as they should. The Heisman award goes to the best college athlete, which Bush was, not the best college athlete who never got caught breaking any rules playing for a team that doesn't cover up when rules are broken.

You keep saying that, but it doesn't appear to be true. To earn the Heisman, you have to stay within NCAA rules.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

they still didn't make Reggie Bush break the rules.

No, but they and a lot of the member schools have created an environment that fosters the rule-breaking. They should be held accountable. Like I said, Reggie Bush and those like him are the symptom, not the disease.

Funny how there are other athletes who don't break the rules. Even if we assume there are many we don't know about who are doing the wrong thing...it's realistic to believe there are many who don't break the rules. Why are these student athletes able to overcome this "environment" and stay within the rules? I agree that schools who create that environment should be held accountable, and I think USC is suffering those punishments already. Those who claim the NCAA is hypocritical should acknowledge that they're punishing USC as well. Bush isn't the only problem, but he is a part of the problem. You know the rules. Do the right thing.

 

[Harrassment Panda]

Why are these student athletes able to overcome this "environment" and stay within the rules?

Because they're not good. Therefore they don't have agents and boosters throwing money and cars (and apparently houses) at them all the time while the university turns a blind eye.Again, do you really think Reggie Bush is the only guy to ever take gifts? You think half the players in the NFL (or more) didn't break one of these rules at some point? I'm guessing at least 90% of blue-chip athletes have been offered gifts at one point or another. When you're an 18-year-old kid who doesn't know crap about the world and grew up with nothing, and some agent comes up to you and offers you a "loan" or a house for your family or whatever, how many people are going to turn that down?Again, these are 17 and 18 year old kids we're talking about. That in itself makes them vulnerable to whatever shady characters are doing to capitalize off their backs.

 

[PatsFanCT]

Why are these student athletes able to overcome this "environment" and stay within the rules?

Because they're not good. Therefore they don't have agents and boosters throwing money and cars (and apparently houses) at them all the time while the university turns a blind eye.Again, do you really think Reggie Bush is the only guy to ever take gifts? You think half the players in the NFL (or more) didn't break one of these rules at some point? I'm guessing at least 90% of blue-chip athletes have been offered gifts at one point or another. When you're an 18-year-old kid who doesn't know crap about the world and grew up with nothing, and some agent comes up to you and offers you a "loan" or a house for your family or whatever, how many people are going to turn that down?Again, these are 17 and 18 year old kids we're talking about. That in itself makes them vulnerable to whatever shady characters are doing to capitalize off their backs.

And, just to add, these 17 and 18 year old kids have brothers, sisters, parents and friends all telling them to take the money and the house, because what the hell, they have nothing to lose by them doing it.And again, I'm not saying what he did was right, but I certainly understand it. hell, set up a poll on here and ask the question "If you were a 17 or 18 year old athlete who is being offered hundreds of thousands of dollars and a house or BMW, would you take it even if you knew you were breaking the rules?"Of course it's wrong, but I can tell you which radio button is going to run away with that poll. hell, I was working at McDonald's and walking back and forth to work when I was 17. I would take that deal without thinking twice.

 

[Breesisdaman]

Does this not sound stupid... How do you explain this to your kids... Well Reggie Bush got money from boosters and probably got pocket change and a car plus a rental home for his family. For that he gave back the Heisman trophy which he did really earn on the field... Now, the school feels offended that they don't have as many scholarships to award and they can't participate in a Bowl...etc. etc.

But Dad, did he commit a crime... Well not really... or Did he bet on a game where the team lost... No he didn't ... So what did they do to the boosters or agents... well nothing... and what about all the money the school made during that period... Will they give the money back... Well no and what happened to the coach... Well he took a job with a pro team and he is making more money...

So why does Reggie Bush have to give up the award.. I don't know son.

 

[CalBear]

Does this not sound stupid... How do you explain this to your kids... Well Reggie Bush got money from boosters and probably got pocket change and a car plus a rental home for his family. For that he gave back the Heisman trophy which he did really earn on the field... Now, the school feels offended that they don't have as many scholarships to award and they can't participate in a Bowl...etc. etc.But Dad, did he commit a crime... Well not really... or Did he bet on a game where the team lost... No he didn't ... So what did they do to the boosters or agents... well nothing... and what about all the money the school made during that period... Will they give the money back... Well no and what happened to the coach... Well he took a job with a pro team and he is making more money...So why does Reggie Bush have to give up the award.. I don't know son.

Simple answer: "He cheated." Got paid when he'd signed an agreement that he wouldn't be paid. If you can't explain that to your kid, you've got bigger problems than what happens in football.

 

[ROBOPUNTER]

Does this not sound stupid... How do you explain this to your kids... Well Reggie Bush got money from boosters and probably got pocket change and a car plus a rental home for his family. For that he gave back the Heisman trophy which he did really earn on the field... Now, the school feels offended that they don't have as many scholarships to award and they can't participate in a Bowl...etc. etc.But Dad, did he commit a crime... Well not really... or Did he bet on a game where the team lost... No he didn't ... So what did they do to the boosters or agents... well nothing... and what about all the money the school made during that period... Will they give the money back... Well no and what happened to the coach... Well he took a job with a pro team and he is making more money...So why does Reggie Bush have to give up the award.. I don't know son.

Saints fans bringing the stupid in here

 

[LC512]

So a ticky tack NCAA rule ends up settling what everyone else knew after January 4, 2006 - that Vince Young was the best player in college football.

Alls well that ends well.

 

[Team ROFLCOPTERS]

Of course he was wrong, I didn't say otherwise. But the NCAA is extremely hypocritical, and they don't even have a say in the Heisman award. Reggie Bush broke the rules, and the school knew it. they are paying for it, as they should. The Heisman award goes to the best college athlete, which Bush was, not the best college athlete who never got caught breaking any rules playing for a team that doesn't cover up when rules are broken.They could take away all of Bush's stats, strip USC of all their wins, that's fine. The Heisman award is about his play on the field, not about his morals off of it.

Hiding rule-breaking shouldn't be rewarded with accolades. He might have been the best college athlete on the field, but he wasn't eligible to be a college athlete and shouldn't have been on the field. Again, pointing fingers at another entity doesn't hold water for me. The NCAA could be the most hypocritical organization ever created; they still didn't make Reggie Bush break the rules.

The problem that you are overlooking in this thread is that the Heisman committe is not tied to the NCAA. You keep saying he should be punished. They are not an authority figure to punish players. If they are to punish past Heisman winners after the award has been earned then they should remove Heismans from OJ for murder and theft, Rodney Peet for beating his wife, Billy Sims for tax evasion, Vinny Testeverde for DWI's, etc. Bush earned the Heisman for his on field play. Should he have been on the field? No, but that is not their job to judge.

 

[Harrassment Panda]

Does this not sound stupid... How do you explain this to your kids... Well Reggie Bush got money from boosters and probably got pocket change and a car plus a rental home for his family. For that he gave back the Heisman trophy which he did really earn on the field... Now, the school feels offended that they don't have as many scholarships to award and they can't participate in a Bowl...etc. etc.But Dad, did he commit a crime... Well not really... or Did he bet on a game where the team lost... No he didn't ... So what did they do to the boosters or agents... well nothing... and what about all the money the school made during that period... Will they give the money back... Well no and what happened to the coach... Well he took a job with a pro team and he is making more money...So why does Reggie Bush have to give up the award.. I don't know son.

Saints fans bringing the stupid in here

Quoting yourself when you have nothing to contribute other than some trite phrase like "bringing the stupid" = actually bringing the stupid.

 

[Novice2]

He shouldn't have gave it up. In fact he should have sold it to the highest bidder before the powers that be @ the trust could have their ''oh look how great we are'' meeting.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Why are these student athletes able to overcome this "environment" and stay within the rules?

Because they're not good. Therefore they don't have agents and boosters throwing money and cars (and apparently houses) at them all the time while the university turns a blind eye.Again, do you really think Reggie Bush is the only guy to ever take gifts? You think half the players in the NFL (or more) didn't break one of these rules at some point?

I'm guessing at least 90% of blue-chip athletes have been offered gifts at one point or another. When you're an 18-year-old kid who doesn't know crap about the world and grew up with nothing, and some agent comes up to you and offers you a "loan" or a house for your family or whatever, how many people are going to turn that down?

Again, these are 17 and 18 year old kids we're talking about. That in itself makes them vulnerable to whatever shady characters are doing to capitalize off their backs.

If half did...then half didn't. Instead of making excuses for the half that did, ask why they couldn't do the right thing. Like I said before, if I was in the same situation I couldn't say for sure that I could have said no. But I would have been just as wrong and ineligible to play. It would have been my fault, not "the system."

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Why are these student athletes able to overcome this "environment" and stay within the rules?

Because they're not good. Therefore they don't have agents and boosters throwing money and cars (and apparently houses) at them all the time while the university turns a blind eye.Again, do you really think Reggie Bush is the only guy to ever take gifts? You think half the players in the NFL (or more) didn't break one of these rules at some point?

I'm guessing at least 90% of blue-chip athletes have been offered gifts at one point or another. When you're an 18-year-old kid who doesn't know crap about the world and grew up with nothing, and some agent comes up to you and offers you a "loan" or a house for your family or whatever, how many people are going to turn that down?

Again, these are 17 and 18 year old kids we're talking about. That in itself makes them vulnerable to whatever shady characters are doing to capitalize off their backs.

And, just to add, these 17 and 18 year old kids have brothers, sisters, parents and friends all telling them to take the money and the house, because what the hell, they have nothing to lose by them doing it.And again, I'm not saying what he did was right, but I certainly understand it. hell, set up a poll on here and ask the question "If you were a 17 or 18 year old athlete who is being offered hundreds of thousands of dollars and a house or BMW, would you take it even if you knew you were breaking the rules?"

Of course it's wrong, but I can tell you which radio button is going to run away with that poll. hell, I was working at McDonald's and walking back and forth to work when I was 17. I would take that deal without thinking twice.

And you would have been ineligible to play and earn the Heisman Trophy. You would have broken the rules. What's so hard to understand? He did wrong and didn't deserve that award.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Does this not sound stupid... How do you explain this to your kids... Well Reggie Bush got money from boosters and probably got pocket change and a car plus a rental home for his family. For that he gave back the Heisman trophy which he did really earn on the field... Now, the school feels offended that they don't have as many scholarships to award and they can't participate in a Bowl...etc. etc.But Dad, did he commit a crime... Well not really... or Did he bet on a game where the team lost... No he didn't ... So what did they do to the boosters or agents... well nothing... and what about all the money the school made during that period... Will they give the money back... Well no and what happened to the coach... Well he took a job with a pro team and he is making more money...So why does Reggie Bush have to give up the award.. I don't know son.

This is sad. I guess I know where kids get the idea that, if you do wrong, the proper response is to rationalize and make excuses. The best thing to do is minimize what you did and act like it's not really a big deal at all.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Of course he was wrong, I didn't say otherwise. But the NCAA is extremely hypocritical, and they don't even have a say in the Heisman award. Reggie Bush broke the rules, and the school knew it. they are paying for it, as they should. The Heisman award goes to the best college athlete, which Bush was, not the best college athlete who never got caught breaking any rules playing for a team that doesn't cover up when rules are broken.

They could take away all of Bush's stats, strip USC of all their wins, that's fine. The Heisman award is about his play on the field, not about his morals off of it.

Hiding rule-breaking shouldn't be rewarded with accolades. He might have been the best college athlete on the field, but he wasn't eligible to be a college athlete and shouldn't have been on the field. Again, pointing fingers at another entity doesn't hold water for me. The NCAA could be the most hypocritical organization ever created; they still didn't make Reggie Bush break the rules.

The problem that you are overlooking in this thread is that the Heisman committe is not tied to the NCAA. You keep saying he should be punished. They are not an authority figure to punish players. If they are to punish past Heisman winners after the award has been earned then they should remove Heismans from OJ for murder and theft, Rodney Peet for beating his wife, Billy Sims for tax evasion, Vinny Testeverde for DWI's, etc. Bush earned the Heisman for his on field play. Should he have been on the field? No, but that is not their job to judge.

No, they shouldn't. Earning the Heisman is not contingent upon keeping your nose clean after you earn it. It IS contingent upon you being eligible to play. Bush wasn't eligible to play. If Chris Johnson went back to school, he'd probably win the Heisman. But guess what? He's not eligible, so how great he does on the field of play wouldn't matter.Bush can't win an award that he wasn't eligible to win. Through Bush's deception, the committee made a mistake. They would simply be correcting it. Nothing wrong with that.

 

[CalBear]

The problem that you are overlooking in this thread is that the Heisman committe is not tied to the NCAA. You keep saying he should be punished. They are not an authority figure to punish players. If they are to punish past Heisman winners after the award has been earned then they should remove Heismans from OJ for murder and theft, Rodney Peet for beating his wife, Billy Sims for tax evasion, Vinny Testeverde for DWI's, etc. Bush earned the Heisman for his on field play. Should he have been on the field? No, but that is not their job to judge.

Of course the Heisman committee is tied to the NCAA. They're awarding the Heisman to an NCAA athlete. The first line of the Heisman mission is:

The Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity.

All the crap that happens after college is not the Heisman's business. All the stuff that happens in college is the Heisman's business. So if Rodney Peet beat his wife while he was in college, he should have his Heisman removed. If it happened after he was out of college, it's none of the Heisman's business.

 

[Harrassment Panda]

It would have been my fault, not "the system."

Then "the system" is never held accountable for their end of things.I have no problem with Bush being stripped of any of his awards. What I have a problem with is the corrupt system that scapegoats him and then gets on their high horse preaching "integrity" and "fair play". Meanwhile those same people are making billions and billions of dollars off the backs of amateur athletes and continually skirt the rules themselves. By pushing all the blame on someone like Bush they are knowingly allowing the system to propagate itself. And I think we all know why they're willing to do so.

 

[RandyDB]

Of course he was wrong, I didn't say otherwise. But the NCAA is extremely hypocritical, and they don't even have a say in the Heisman award. Reggie Bush broke the rules, and the school knew it. they are paying for it, as they should. The Heisman award goes to the best college athlete, which Bush was, not the best college athlete who never got caught breaking any rules playing for a team that doesn't cover up when rules are broken.

They could take away all of Bush's stats, strip USC of all their wins, that's fine. The Heisman award is about his play on the field, not about his morals off of it.

Hiding rule-breaking shouldn't be rewarded with accolades. He might have been the best college athlete on the field, but he wasn't eligible to be a college athlete and shouldn't have been on the field. Again, pointing fingers at another entity doesn't hold water for me. The NCAA could be the most hypocritical organization ever created; they still didn't make Reggie Bush break the rules.

The problem that you are overlooking in this thread is that the Heisman committe is not tied to the NCAA. You keep saying he should be punished. They are not an authority figure to punish players. If they are to punish past Heisman winners after the award has been earned then they should remove Heismans from OJ for murder and theft, Rodney Peet for beating his wife, Billy Sims for tax evasion, Vinny Testeverde for DWI's, etc. Bush earned the Heisman for his on field play. Should he have been on the field? No, but that is not their job to judge.

LinkThe Heisman Memorial Trophy annually recognizes the outstanding college football player whose performance best exhibits the pursuit of excellence with integrity.

It doesn't even say that the Trophy goes to the Best athelete, but it certainly says "with integrity".

 

[ROBOPUNTER]

Does this not sound stupid... How do you explain this to your kids... Well Reggie Bush got money from boosters and probably got pocket change and a car plus a rental home for his family. For that he gave back the Heisman trophy which he did really earn on the field... Now, the school feels offended that they don't have as many scholarships to award and they can't participate in a Bowl...etc. etc.But Dad, did he commit a crime... Well not really... or Did he bet on a game where the team lost... No he didn't ... So what did they do to the boosters or agents... well nothing... and what about all the money the school made during that period... Will they give the money back... Well no and what happened to the coach... Well he took a job with a pro team and he is making more money...So why does Reggie Bush have to give up the award.. I don't know son.

Saints fans bringing the stupid in here

Quoting yourself when you have nothing to contribute other than some trite phrase like "bringing the stupid" = actually bringing the stupid.

No. You want that to be the case, but seeing a bunch of Saints fans who have zero ability to be objective about this, but still think they can make good points is just horrible.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Does this not sound stupid... How do you explain this to your kids... Well Reggie Bush got money from boosters and probably got pocket change and a car plus a rental home for his family. For that he gave back the Heisman trophy which he did really earn on the field... Now, the school feels offended that they don't have as many scholarships to award and they can't participate in a Bowl...etc. etc.But Dad, did he commit a crime... Well not really... or Did he bet on a game where the team lost... No he didn't ... So what did they do to the boosters or agents... well nothing... and what about all the money the school made during that period... Will they give the money back... Well no and what happened to the coach... Well he took a job with a pro team and he is making more money...So why does Reggie Bush have to give up the award.. I don't know son.

This kid's going to be a genius when he grows up. Especially when his dad can't explain to him what rules are.

 

[Harrassment Panda]

No. You want that to be the case, but seeing a bunch of Saints fans who have zero ability to be objective about this, but still think they can make good points is just horrible.

You obviously came into the thread bearing some kind of grudge against Saints fans. Pretty transparent. You root for the Vikings or Falcons?I think I've been pretty objective, despite your inability to see that. Believe it or not, it's possible to have an opinion based on factors other than one's own personal biases.

So judging from your completely worthless and hypocritical contribution, you'll have to forgive me for believing you're a damned idiot.

 

[coachjim]

He didn't "cheat" on the field. He violated an NCAA rule about accepting money from boosters. That was wrong and USC is paying the price. But the craziest thing about this whole "returning the Heisman trophy" business is that The Heisman trophy isn't even awarded or sanctioned by the NCAA.ETA, O.J Simpson is sitting in prison, murdered two people, and he still has his Heisman award.

Let's put it this way: if Maurice Clarett reentered college under an assumed name, claimed he was 18 years old, and tore up the place and won the Heisman, would you be OK with that? He's "only" breaking NCAA rules. If you're not eligible to play, you're not eligible to win awards related to your play.The OJ Simpson thing is a total red herring; there's nothing which suggests that Heisman winners need to be good citizens for the rest of their lives. They do, however, need to abide by NCAA rules while they're in the NCAA.

I would bet that Simpson was given more money by SC and it's boosters than Bush ever saw. He just did not get caught. You don't honestly think SC has never done this before do you.

 

[ookook]

The point of this thread was not whether Bush broke the rules: he did.

It was not whether others brake them and do not get caught: they do.

It was (I believe) whether him returning the award and apologizing was the right thing to do: it was.

Is it too little too late? To me it is just right.

 

[CalBear]

I would bet that Simpson was given more money by SC and it's boosters than Bush ever saw. He just did not get caught. You don't honestly think SC has never done this before do you.

I'm sure that SC has done it before. If there were proof that Simpson had violated NCAA regulations while he was in college, I think it would be totally appropriate to take away his Heisman and make USC vacate his wins.

 

[Csonka4life]

Is anybody naive enough to think he is the only winner that didn't violate the rules in terms of under the table payments? I agree with the stripping but the award should go to Vince Young. Declaring it vacant is bogus.

 

[ookook]

To my knowledge, no award has been stripped.

It was returned. Is different in terms of giving it to another player (VY).

 

[ROBOPUNTER]

No. You want that to be the case, but seeing a bunch of Saints fans who have zero ability to be objective about this, but still think they can make good points is just horrible.

You obviously came into the thread bearing some kind of grudge against Saints fans. Pretty transparent. You root for the Vikings or Falcons?I think I've been pretty objective, despite your inability to see that. Believe it or not, it's possible to have an opinion based on factors other than one's own personal biases.

So judging from your completely worthless and hypocritical contribution, you'll have to forgive me for believing you're a damned idiot.

No grudge against Saints fans. Please be more excellent next time.

 

[Csonka4life]

To my knowledge, no award has been stripped.It was returned. Is different in terms of giving it to another player (VY).

It seemed that he was getting to the intersection resign with grace or get stripped before the DAC committee did.

 

[Harrassment Panda]

No grudge against Saints fans. Please be more excellent next time.

Whatever.Next time you want to go throwing around words like "stupid" in an accusatory tone, keep your piehole shut instead.

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

It would have been my fault, not "the system."

Then "the system" is never held accountable for their end of things.I have no problem with Bush being stripped of any of his awards. What I have a problem with is the corrupt system that scapegoats him and then gets on their high horse preaching "integrity" and "fair play". Meanwhile those same people are making billions and billions of dollars off the backs of amateur athletes and continually skirt the rules themselves.

By pushing all the blame on someone like Bush they are knowingly allowing the system to propagate itself. And I think we all know why they're willing to do so.

I disagree. The school has also been punished for its violations. I can buy the argument that Bush attended a school that encouraged this behavior, so he was indoctrinated into it. He's still responsible, but he's a kid and the school is an established institution. It's not fair to hold a kid solely responsible for resisting a corrupt culture at his school. But that's as far as I'll take it. It's not "the system's" fault that the school and the athlete skirted the rules. I'm in the uncomfortable position of defending the NCAA, which is far from perfect. But they have rules in place and they don't seem to ignore them when infractions occur. Yes, they make a lot of money. But they do provide the platform for the stars to make a lot of money, and those who are just role players (and not really contributing as much to the revenue) still get a free education.

I know this is off-topic, but I would support the NCAA including a LLoyd's of London insurance policy against injury with every football scholarship they hand out. That way if a potential star hurts themselves while making the school money, they're protected against loss of future income. But if a student takes money or gifts or whatever, they're in clear violation of the rules and not eligible to play. That also means they're not eligible to win awards since they can't be on the field.

And again, I don't think Bush is a bad guy and he did the right thing by returning the trophy. But he wasn't being some amazing class act or anything. He gave back what he knew was about to be taken from him, anyway.

 

[Team ROFLCOPTERS]

Of course he was wrong, I didn't say otherwise. But the NCAA is extremely hypocritical, and they don't even have a say in the Heisman award. Reggie Bush broke the rules, and the school knew it. they are paying for it, as they should. The Heisman award goes to the best college athlete, which Bush was, not the best college athlete who never got caught breaking any rules playing for a team that doesn't cover up when rules are broken.

They could take away all of Bush's stats, strip USC of all their wins, that's fine. The Heisman award is about his play on the field, not about his morals off of it.

Hiding rule-breaking shouldn't be rewarded with accolades. He might have been the best college athlete on the field, but he wasn't eligible to be a college athlete and shouldn't have been on the field. Again, pointing fingers at another entity doesn't hold water for me. The NCAA could be the most hypocritical organization ever created; they still didn't make Reggie Bush break the rules.

The problem that you are overlooking in this thread is that the Heisman committe is not tied to the NCAA. You keep saying he should be punished. They are not an authority figure to punish players. If they are to punish past Heisman winners after the award has been earned then they should remove Heismans from OJ for murder and theft, Rodney Peet for beating his wife, Billy Sims for tax evasion, Vinny Testeverde for DWI's, etc. Bush earned the Heisman for his on field play. Should he have been on the field? No, but that is not their job to judge.

No, they shouldn't. Earning the Heisman is not contingent upon keeping your nose clean after you earn it. It IS contingent upon you being eligible to play. Bush wasn't eligible to play. If Chris Johnson went back to school, he'd probably win the Heisman. But guess what? He's not eligible, so how great he does on the field of play wouldn't matter.Bush can't win an award that he wasn't eligible to win. Through Bush's deception, the committee made a mistake. They would simply be correcting it. Nothing wrong with that.

It doesn't matter since Bush won the Heisman. Their job is not to go back and police past issues. That's my point. By the way, on ESPN they interviewed the head of the commitee and when asked if they would have revoked the Heisman his response was that they had more important things to do than put that to vote.

 

[Team ROFLCOPTERS]

No. You want that to be the case, but seeing a bunch of Saints fans who have zero ability to be objective about this, but still think they can make good points is just horrible.

You obviously came into the thread bearing some kind of grudge against Saints fans. Pretty transparent. You root for the Vikings or Falcons?I think I've been pretty objective, despite your inability to see that. Believe it or not, it's possible to have an opinion based on factors other than one's own personal biases.

So judging from your completely worthless and hypocritical contribution, you'll have to forgive me for believing you're a damned idiot.

No grudge against Saints fans. Please be more excellent next time.

Why are you trolling? How does a schtick benefit this board?

 

[The Commish]

You really want to be an elite organization? Catch him the year he broke your rules...

I hate the NCAA, but they did catch him the year he broke the rules.....appeals process takes THIS long. Everyone knew what was going on that year. He wasn't eligible to get the award. Giving it back is what he HAS to do....he just beat the trust to the punch in an attempt to make the best of a bad situation. Can't blame him at all for doing what he did.

 

[LAUNCH]

Why does everyone keep missing the bigger picture about Reggie. Sure taking money as a college student is against NCAA rules, but this guy had a verbal agreement with Lloyd Lake and essentially tried to steal $300k from him. This isn't about some poor kid getting a free meal. His parents got a house and they wrote their names in the cement in front of the house and played it off like they never lived there. This idiot signs a huge rookie deal and chose to go another route with his agent, but then by choosing not to pay his debts to what appears to be another scum bag, Lake, he threw away his reputation, his heisman, and his alma mater down the drain.

 

[BassNBrew]

Why does everyone keep missing the bigger picture about Reggie. Sure taking money as a college student is against NCAA rules, but this guy had a verbal agreement with Lloyd Lake and essentially tried to steal $300k from him. This isn't about some poor kid getting a free meal. His parents got a house and they wrote their names in the cement in front of the house and played it off like they never lived there. This idiot signs a huge rookie deal and chose to go another route with his agent, but then by choosing not to pay his debts to what appears to be another scum bag, Lake, he threw away his reputation, his heisman, and his alma mater down the drain.

karma bites back