timschochet
Footballguy
Pelosi has nothing to do with the state budget.any state who's citizens keep electing Nancy Pelosi get what they deserve
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Californian's Rejoice! Your taxes are going UP UP UP! (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter StrikeS2k
- Start date
timschochet
Footballguy
I'm very concerned about the continual mention of illegal immigrants in connection with this issue. It's scapegoating, pure and simple.
Parrothead
Footballguy
Didn't say she did.. I was just commenting that if people are dumb enough to vote for someone like Pelosi, then they usually end up voting for schmucks at the local levels as well, and end up with the government they deserve.Pelosi has nothing to do with the state budget.any state who's citizens keep electing Nancy Pelosi get what they deserve
SteevieG
Footballguy
There's a lot of disagreement over this and I can't let you just run with it as an assumed fact. Illegals cost an awful lot to our education, hospitals, and criminal justice, and in all those areas, we have great trouble affording them. On the other hand, their willingness to work for low wages keeps our agriculture and other essential industries price competitive. Plus every illegal that comes spends most of their money here on food and shelter, and their spending has become an integral part of our economy. I have read different economists call this a wash, while others (notably from the Cato Institute) actually see the illegals effect on the economy as a net gain.
NO FARKING WAY!!! I grew up in California. We decided to move the day our 2nd grade son came home with a homework paper written entirely in Spanish. It wasn't a Spanish class. Illegals have been there for as long as I remember, but now they've multiplied at least 20 times what I remember growing up and they flaunt themselves to no end. They have no redeeming qualities that I can see. They are a drain on not only California's economy but the nation's economy. Prisons are full of them, school systems are full of them, hospital emergency rooms are full of them, Home Depot parking lots are full of them. They send most of their money back to the 3rd world countries from which they came. That's why you see 20 of them living in 3 bedroom houses, dragging neighborhoods down to their levels. Round them all up, deport them. I have no sadness hearing how tough it was for them to get here - crossing the desert, getting robbed, getting killed. I don't care. They were criminals the second they stepped foot in this county. Whatever it takes to get rid of them is fine with me.
Go ahead and flame me for this post. I don't care about that either.
NO FARKING WAY!!! I grew up in California. We decided to move the day our 2nd grade son came home with a homework paper written entirely in Spanish. It wasn't a Spanish class. Illegals have been there for as long as I remember, but now they've multiplied at least 20 times what I remember growing up and they flaunt themselves to no end. They have no redeeming qualities that I can see. They are a drain on not only California's economy but the nation's economy. Prisons are full of them, school systems are full of them, hospital emergency rooms are full of them, Home Depot parking lots are full of them. They send most of their money back to the 3rd world countries from which they came. That's why you see 20 of them living in 3 bedroom houses, dragging neighborhoods down to their levels. Round them all up, deport them. I have no sadness hearing how tough it was for them to get here - crossing the desert, getting robbed, getting killed. I don't care. They were criminals the second they stepped foot in this county. Whatever it takes to get rid of them is fine with me.
Go ahead and flame me for this post. I don't care about that either.
Black Label Society
Footballguy
Ahh yes. Reminds me of a good friend of mine, who happens to be a liberal.I could throw 100 things at him about liberals and their failed policies and his reply would be "Well, George Bush doubled our debt". To which my reply was always simply "One man does not epitomize an entire political philosophy".The fact is...Bush was a horrible President. And I voted for him (once).But he's NOT a true Conservative...and that's why the Democrats won so many seats in Congress this year, not to mention the White House.The liberal vs. conservative argument has been done enough that we don't need to revisit.But California has been, and currently is, run by aggressive, liberal policies and they are a shining example of what happens when you overbloat government.
KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
There are plenty of other states with good weather that aren't the People's Republic of California.
Hov34
Eephus's Great Great Great Love Child
If you say so. I'm sure illegal immigrants have nothing to do with the problem.
Moe Green
Footballguy
Moe Green
Footballguy
Tim, do you have any idea of the amount that goes toward paying for MediCAL and other services for illegal immigrants? It's things like this that are simply bankrupting the state. You don't live here, do you?
OC Zed
Footballguy
You know, that's how it's SUPPOSED to work. You just vote out those who aren't doing your bidding. Unfortunately, California is completely gerrymeandered to the point where the incumbent party just about ALWAYS wins every election. Awnuld tried to pass a measure to combat this a few years ago and the unions made sure it didn't pass. They spent a LOT of money fighting that. Finally, a measure did pass on the ballot last November but the redistricting hasn't taken place yet so it's unknown what the effect will be. The state may be too far gone for that to help at this point. It'll be a few years before we know.Just curious, but who is "they?" If you're a resident of California, "they" is elected by "you." So if folks don't like the State's spending practices and are sick of higher taxes, then throw the bums out. Can't have our cake (lots of spending on infrastructure, as an example) and eat it too (no $$$ to pay for it). As folks are hopefully quickly learning on the Federal level too.Illegal residents and undocumented workers are a BIG part of what is to blame out there for taxpayers taking it in the chin too (medical costs, income taxes not being paid, crime/prisons, etc.)...but rather than stew over it, what are folks actually going to DO about it?!
timschochet
Footballguy
I started a spinoff thread on this subject so as not to detract from the main issue on this one. The immigration issue aside, I share Strike's concern, and find his logic to be compelling.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Are you Californians in favor of a more progressive state income tax rate to pay for the state's programs? Or would you rather make cuts to the programs?
No it's not. It's common sense, not to mention numerous studies and reports.
The state's budget has DOUBLED in the last ten years. They've got 40 BILLION more in revenue in just the last 5. They don't have a revenue problem. They have a spending problem. When things are good the socialists in Sacramento spend spend spend, and become committed to new programs, many of them aimed at illegals like giving in state college tuition to illegals. Let me get this straight. If you're an American cititzen from Nevada and want to to go UCLA you pay a HUGE amount of money in out of state tuition but if you're an illegal immigrant in CA you get to go cheap. How is that fair again? But they do it anyways. What they should do is cut the budget while the economy is bad but they refuse to do that. The problem is it's pretty universally acknowledged that the last thing you want to do in an economic downturn is raise taxes. It usually backfires and you end up with less revenue than before. But the idiots in Sacramento refuse to cut the budget so they feel their only alternative is to raise taxes. It's ridiculous.
OC Zed
Footballguy
I have only been here 4 1/2 years, but I understand your sentiments exactly. I have a foolish hope though that we will hit a tipping point soon and people will finally come to their senses. The next gubernatorial elections may be the state's last chance before things really go off the deep end.
OC Zed
Footballguy
Los Angeles and Bay Area: More taxes! Soak the rich!Rest of California: Quite taxing us so much for paying for your overbloated union salaries and insane spending!
timschochet
Footballguy
Again, Strike, you are dead on correct here in your analysis.You know, that's how it's SUPPOSED to work. You just vote out those who aren't doing your bidding. Unfortunately, California is completely gerrymeandered to the point where the incumbent party just about ALWAYS wins every election. Awnuld tried to pass a measure to combat this a few years ago and the unions made sure it didn't pass. They spent a LOT of money fighting that. Finally, a measure did pass on the ballot last November but the redistricting hasn't taken place yet so it's unknown what the effect will be. The state may be too far gone for that to help at this point. It'll be a few years before we know.Just curious, but who is "they?" If you're a resident of California, "they" is elected by "you." So if folks don't like the State's spending practices and are sick of higher taxes, then throw the bums out. Can't have our cake (lots of spending on infrastructure, as an example) and eat it too (no $$$ to pay for it). As folks are hopefully quickly learning on the Federal level too. :( Illegal residents and undocumented workers are a BIG part of what is to blame out there for taxpayers taking it in the chin too (medical costs, income taxes not being paid, crime/prisons, etc.)...but rather than stew over it, what are folks actually going to DO about it?!
dparker713
Footballguy
You can debate the effect of illegals on the overall economy all you want, but there is no discussion as to whether they are a drain on the state. They cost the state budget in many ways and even if they pay taxes, their taxes do not cover the services provided to them. While they might help the average consumer, they're killing the schools, hospitals and legal system.
Topes
Footballguy
Actually, the highest marginal tax bracket is applied to adjusted gross income that exceeds that amount.Is that a low threshold to set the highest marginal rate at? Could be.But a person making only $42k annually in California will not have any income taxed at the highest rate.StrikeS2k said:
phthalatemagic
Footballguy
Plus, I heard it's a gross violation of civil libertiestimschochet said:
In case any of you Cali peeps are interested, this ******* budget will be voted on today at 5:00 PST. It was supposed to be voted on this morning but, unlike our federal government, they decided to give the legislators time to actually read it. Oh, and it's no coincidence this is being voted on during a holiday weekend. It won't get much coverage if it passes and they hope you will just be completely oblivious to it come Tuesday.
http://www.fresnobee.com/updates/story/1199815.html
http://www.fresnobee.com/updates/story/1199815.html
A glimmer of hope for fiscal responsibility:
http://www.mercurynews.com/localnewsheadlines/ci_11711561
An interesting quote that shows the power of talk radio:
http://www.mercurynews.com/localnewsheadlines/ci_11711561
An interesting quote that shows the power of talk radio:
jonessed
Footballguy
The bill was largely based on "temporary" tax increases and borrowing. In a state that's in a deep recession, has the worst credit rating in the nation, and already has the highest income tax and sales tax rates that's just pure stupidity.
I think you know this since you put temporary in quotes, but typically these things get passed as temporary and then just become made permanent when they're set to expire. I don't think I've ever seen, in CA anyways, a tax that was labeled as temporary actually expire.
jonessed
Footballguy
Some of the taxes also had to be approved by the voters which was never going to happen and would have just increased the amount borrowed. This whole process has become a giant shell game. Much like the federal government, someone in CA is going to have to address the real problem sooner or later. Unfortunately for CA it's much easier to move (either through permanent address or actually moving) to another state than it is to move countries. It might be different if taxpayers actually saw a benefit from getting fleeced, either in the way of a semi-decent education system or lower crime, but they don't. I think the legislature is going to have to come to grips with the fact that collecting the largess of your revenues from income taxes when your state is consistently replacing domestic emmigration with foreign immigration is not feasible long-term policy.
Socialist's still trying to pass this turd bill. Still one vote shy although one Republican says he's close to selling out. If you want to know how it might affect you here is a calculator:
http://www.sacbee.com/1098/story/1627728.html
http://www.sacbee.com/1098/story/1627728.html
OC Zed
Footballguy
T Bell
Footballguy
####!
No, it can't be blamed on prop. 13.
clampino
Footballguy
Shadowfax
Footballguy
Why not? Seems like the states is losing a lot of tax revenue.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I'll start getting scared when the venture capital and innovation centers move away from CA. Until then, the state will still be a leading (if not THE leading) economic player in the US.
The state doesn't have a revenue problem. The size of gov't has DOUBLED in the last decade, and is up about 40% just under Awnuld. This despite a crashing economy the last couple of years. They have a SPENDING problem. I've explained it in great detail in numerous threads. You're welcome to go back and re-read those threads since you're late to the party.Why not? Seems like the states is losing a lot of tax revenue.
Orange Crush
Footballguy
I know CA is a crazy liberal state. But one odd thing about it is that it requires a 2/3 majority to pass any budget or tax increase. So the minority Republican power actually holds huge power over the budget. They tell the Dems: "you want my vote? here's a checklist of all the changes I want before I vote yes." The Repubs actually got a corporate tax decrease added to this budget. That seems pretty ballsy. I would have put a higher priority on cutting spending, but that's just me.
One crazy stat I saw regarding this: CA halted work on 18 infrastructure projects Tuesday that until now had been allowed to continue due to the heightened costs of halting and re-starting work on them. But the deadline finally came and went, and so without even emergency funding they had to be shut down - even though they will be re-started in just a few days. The cost of suspending and re-starting work? Just shy of $400 million.
I'm not kidding.
One crazy stat I saw regarding this: CA halted work on 18 infrastructure projects Tuesday that until now had been allowed to continue due to the heightened costs of halting and re-starting work on them. But the deadline finally came and went, and so without even emergency funding they had to be shut down - even though they will be re-started in just a few days. The cost of suspending and re-starting work? Just shy of $400 million.
I'm not kidding.
This was part of Prop. 13. See, back then CA was in the top 5 of most heavily taxed states in the country. Prop. 13 put them back somewhere in the middle. If this bill passes they're going to be getting up there near the top again. Even without this bill CA has one of, if not the highest, sales tax rates in the country. They have one of, if not the highest, state income tax rates in the country and it kicks in at one of the lowest income levels in the country. They have the highest business tax rate in the Western US which is why many businesses are leaving the state for more business friendly neighboring states like Nevada. As far as startup costs for projects stalled by this fiasco, too bad. Someone has to draw a line and say that at some point the socialists have to learn to spend within their means. They can't just keep spending and spending and expecting to raise taxes when they run out of money. The budget can be easily balanced without resorting to tax increases. The Dems just won't hear of it.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Nevada will start raising its corporate tax rates soon enough to pay for the infrastructure that they demand.
Koya
Footballguy
Taxes are going up around the country... that is what you get when you planned so poorly for 50 years of unprecedented national growth.
We are now paying for pensions of the last 50 years.
Paying for not upgrading infrastructure- and not finding better ways to get people around.
Paying for making sprawl the only viable optionin many/most places.
Paying for antiquated and out of control levels of government and stupid numbers of school districts on top of that.
We have essentially legislated our way into an economic (and to a degree social) corner that won't be fixed without drastic changes in approach. Not sure how that will fly without actual collapse happening, though.
Perhaps some places will collapse - and others will be forward thinking enough, and have the leadership to make the very tough choices now. Its evolve or die time - we are pushing the limits of an utterly unsustainable model.
Unless we actually address these issues, its only pushing armegeddon off a bit more.
We are now paying for pensions of the last 50 years.
Paying for not upgrading infrastructure- and not finding better ways to get people around.
Paying for making sprawl the only viable optionin many/most places.
Paying for antiquated and out of control levels of government and stupid numbers of school districts on top of that.
We have essentially legislated our way into an economic (and to a degree social) corner that won't be fixed without drastic changes in approach. Not sure how that will fly without actual collapse happening, though.
Perhaps some places will collapse - and others will be forward thinking enough, and have the leadership to make the very tough choices now. Its evolve or die time - we are pushing the limits of an utterly unsustainable model.
Unless we actually address these issues, its only pushing armegeddon off a bit more.
Dash
Road Monkey
Just listened to the Jim Lehrer Podcast from last night that discussed the California budget shortfall. One of the guests, Karen Bass (speaker of the assembly), said that there are 35 million people in CA, but 144,000 tax payers bring in over 50% of the revenue in the state. Yikes!
State Senate Republicans oust their leader:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics...0,6961843.story
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics...0,6961843.story
T Bell
Footballguy
And all of that's traceable to Prop 13? Let's test your understanding here and see you discuss Prop 13's upside.Why not? Seems like the states is losing a lot of tax revenue.
T Bell
Footballguy
California has loved to see itself as a "progressive" state, and has long been led by a Democrat-controlled state legislature. They've been spendthrifts for decades, and have created an entrenched dependency upon their programs. This has been made worse by the influx of impoverished or working class immigrants (many of them illegal) who have understandably availed themselves of these services.In short, California's is a spending problem combined with demographic changes, not a problem that has arisen from too few taxes.
Moe Green
Footballguy
Sens. Ashburn and Maldonado both represent districts close to me and are very conservative -- surprising that they may be willing to cross the line to get this abortion of a State budge passed.God help us.State Senate Republicans oust their leader:
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/politics...0,6961843.story
T Bell
Footballguy
I used that calculator from the Sac Bee and mine came to about $2200. I was being somewhat conservative too, so we actually could go higher.
Did you use the calculator I posted a link to above to calculate how this will affect you? I heard people calling in to a radio station who used it and some were getting 4-6k. And that's per year. Remember, this will be for five years, assuming they let these taxes expire which I doubt.
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