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Californian's Rejoice! Your taxes are going UP UP UP! (1 Viewer)

That state is a joke. Unfortunately, it is not going to be funny when the rest of the country is forced to pay more taxes to bail out CA. What are the other alternatives?
:lmao:

California has a budget surplus.

Also, California provides more revenue to the Federal Government than it takes back in Federal Spending.

But please continue with your ignorant California bashing.
The budget surplus does not address the unfunded pension problem. At all.

And California's history of maintaining budget surpluses is rather poor.
Since Brown's been in office the budget has been in great shape. No question that Davis and Arnold were disasters as governors.

Brown's been working on the pension problem to some extent. It'll take a while to get it under control.

I'm not saying everything's perfect, but it's not as bad as some of the dire California gloom and doom fans would have you believe.

 
That state is a joke. Unfortunately, it is not going to be funny when the rest of the country is forced to pay more taxes to bail out CA. What are the other alternatives?
:lmao:

California has a budget surplus.

Also, California provides more revenue to the Federal Government than it takes back in Federal Spending.

But please continue with your ignorant California bashing.
The budget surplus does not address the unfunded pension problem. At all.

And California's history of maintaining budget surpluses is rather poor.
Since Brown's been in office the budget has been in great shape. No question that Davis and Arnold were disasters as governors.

Brown's been working on the pension problem to some extent. It'll take a while to get it under control.

I'm not saying everything's perfect, but it's not as bad as some of the dire California gloom and doom fans would have you believe.
at least $165 billion underfunded
:shock: That sounds like a lot. Is that a lot?

 
at least $165 billion underfunded

:shock: That sounds like a lot. Is that a lot?
It is a lot, and it's a problem. No question. But this is a state that generates over $100 billion in state revenue annually, so it's not an unsolvable problem. The teachers' union is the main road block. They haven't been willing to compromise in order to make adjustments/solutions to that problem. Unless you're a teacher (or closely related to one), the teachers union is probably the most hated in this state.

 
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Love it when people let their emotions get the best of them.

You leave my state alone! It is the best. Lookie here, I found a poorly written news article that does not address what we were talking about at all!

This discussion is going to look even more hysterical in a few years.

I feel groovy.

 
Love it when people let their emotions get the best of them.

You leave my state alone! It is the best. Lookie here, I found a poorly written news article that does not address what we were talking about at all!

This discussion is going to look even more hysterical in a few years.

I feel groovy.
:lmao:

Nothing poorly written about the article at all, or the data I provided you, all of which exposes how ignorant you are about exactly what you

the rest of the country is forced to pay more taxes to bail out CA
were talking about. Then you start using words like "love" and how "hysterical" you find things subsequent to accusing others of letting their emotions get the better of them. Seems like you're the emotional one "doc." Why the hard on for CA hate? Seems you post about it an awful lot.

I don't really give a #### what you think of California. I just get concerned when people like you post flat out ignorant comments about the economy of the state. You really don't know what you're talking about, and your erroneous posts are a disservice to others who may not know much about the state, but haven't come in with your pre-conceived misperceptions about it. Revel in the problems the state has all you want (I freely admit there are many - what a rah rah guy I am :rolleyes: ), but get some clues first rather than continuing to spread your ignorance.

 
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The pensions will obviously have to stop at some point, and it'll be messy for sure, but California is the world's 8th largest economy (ahead of Russia and Italy), and it's per-worker output is higher than any other state in the union. They'll sort it out.

Gotta be pretty tough being a right-winger and seeing hard-working liberals build a thriving economy, give back to less fortunate Red Staters, and still balance the budget.

 
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The pensions will obviously have to stop at some point, and it'll be messy for sure, but California is the world's 8th largest economy (ahead of Russia and Italy), and it's per-worker output is higher than any other state in the union. They'll sort it out.

Gotta be pretty tough being a right-winger and seeing hard-working liberals build a thriving economy, give back to less fortunate Red Staters, and still balance the budget.
Like I said earlier, California's history of keeping balanced budgets is very poor and the state's economy (and thereby its tax coffers) has consistently gone through boom/bust swings in the last 25 years. There is nothing about this current upswing to indicate that this trend has changed.

 
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We didn't used to be liberal. In the early 90s we had a Republican governor (the 4th out of the last 5), 2 Republican senators, and a Republican controlled legislature. We were considered a "red" state, having voted solidly for Nixon, Reagan, and Bush.

Then along came Prop 187. It attempted to remove illegal immigrants from all public services and their children from public schools. It was heavily supported by Pete Wilson, who before that had made his name as a moderate pro-business Republican. But Wilson was facing a tough re-election fight for the governorship against Jerry Btoen's sister and he needed a wedge issue. 187 passed and he was re-elected.

Latinos in California who were about 60-40 Democrat became 80-20 Democrat. And they became energized. And we've been a blue state ever since.

 
The pensions will obviously have to stop at some point, and it'll be messy for sure, but California is the world's 8th largest economy (ahead of Russia and Italy), and it's per-worker output is higher than any other state in the union. They'll sort it out.

Gotta be pretty tough being a right-winger and seeing hard-working liberals build a thriving economy, give back to less fortunate Red Staters, and still balance the budget.
Take your crap elsewhere. People are trying to have a discussion here.

 
The pensions will obviously have to stop at some point, and it'll be messy for sure, but California is the world's 8th largest economy (ahead of Russia and Italy), and it's per-worker output is higher than any other state in the union. They'll sort it out.

Gotta be pretty tough being a right-winger and seeing hard-working liberals build a thriving economy, give back to less fortunate Red Staters, and still balance the budget.
Take your crap elsewhere. People are trying to have a discussion here.
Yes, I could tell from Doc's comments this was a serious discussion.

But point taken. I'm not helping.

 
Love it when people let their emotions get the best of them.

You leave my state alone! It is the best. Lookie here, I found a poorly written news article that does not address what we were talking about at all!

This discussion is going to look even more hysterical in a few years.

I feel groovy.
:lmao:

Nothing poorly written about the article at all, or the data I provided you, all of which exposes how ignorant you are about exactly what you

the rest of the country is forced to pay more taxes to bail out CA
were talking about. Then you start using words like "love" and how "hysterical" you find things subsequent to accusing others of letting their emotions get the better of them. Seems like you're the emotional one "doc." Why the hard on for CA hate? Seems you post about it an awful lot.

I don't really give a #### what you think of California. I just get concerned when people like you post flat out ignorant comments about the economy of the state. You really don't know what you're talking about, and your erroneous posts are a disservice to others who may not know much about the state, but haven't come in with your pre-conceived misperceptions about it. Revel in the problems the state has all you want (I freely admit there are many - what a rah rah guy I am :rolleyes: ), but get some clues first rather than continuing to spread your ignorance.
You obviously care what I think.

That makes me even more emotional.

So there is not a pension problem looming? Funny how you continue to ignore the discussion point that started this whole conversation.

And, if anyone is basing their opinion on CA on my posts, I apologize. Please base your opinion on CA from the experts like Mr Groovy.

 
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The pensions will obviously have to stop at some point, and it'll be messy for sure, but California is the world's 8th largest economy (ahead of Russia and Italy), and it's per-worker output is higher than any other state in the union. They'll sort it out.

Gotta be pretty tough being a right-winger and seeing hard-working liberals build a thriving economy, give back to less fortunate Red Staters, and still balance the budget.
Like I said earlier, California's history of keeping balanced budgets is very poor and the state's economy (and thereby its tax coffers) has consistently gone through boom/bust swings in the last 25 years. There is nothing about this current upswing to indicate that this trend has changed.
So what? All those 'boom and bust' swings have got California where it is today.

 
The pensions will obviously have to stop at some point, and it'll be messy for sure, but California is the world's 8th largest economy (ahead of Russia and Italy), and it's per-worker output is higher than any other state in the union. They'll sort it out.

Gotta be pretty tough being a right-winger and seeing hard-working liberals build a thriving economy, give back to less fortunate Red Staters, and still balance the budget.
Like I said earlier, California's history of keeping balanced budgets is very poor and the state's economy (and thereby its tax coffers) has consistently gone through boom/bust swings in the last 25 years. There is nothing about this current upswing to indicate that this trend has changed.
So what? All those 'boom and bust' swings have got California where it is today.
I and plenty of others don't think that it's all roses here. The cost of living is ridiculously high thanks in part to a myriad of building restrictions at the state and local levels. The state's economy and financial fortunes have become increasingly reliant on the tech sector which has been prone to wild swings in growth and retraction. Non-tech businesses have been leaving the state for several years now as the costs of doing business here are too expensive (thanks in large part to state and local governments insisting on taxing and regulating them to death). Oh, and the state's population has had a net emigration rate for at least the last 15 years. But, hey, everything is hunky dory here.

 
:ptts:

High-speed rail plan flawed, says Legislature's financial analyst

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2010...al-analyst.html




California Hits the Brakes on High-Speed Rail Fiasco

California's high-speed rail project increasingly looks like an expensive social science experiment to test just how long interest groups can keep money flowing to a doomed endeavor before elected officials finally decide to cancel it. What combination of sweet-sounding scenarios, streamlined mockups, ever-changing and mind-numbing technical detail, and audacious spin will keep the dream alive?

Sold to the public in 2008 as a visionary plan to whisk riders along at 220 miles an hour, making the trip from San Francisco to Los Angeles in a little over two and a half hours, the project promised to attract most of the necessary billions from private investors, to operate without ongoing subsidies and to charge fares low enough to make it competitive with cheap flights. With those assurances, 53.7 percent of voters said yes to a $9.95 billion bond referendum to get the project started. But the assurances were at best wishful thinking, at worst an elaborate con.

The total construction cost estimate has now more than doubled to $68 billion from the original $33 billion, despite trims in the routes planned. The first, easiest-to-build, segment of the system -- the “train to nowhere” through a relatively empty stretch of the Central Valley -- is running at least four years behind schedule and still hasn’t acquired all the needed land. Predicted ticket prices to travel from LA to the Bay have shot from $50 to more than $80. State funding is running short. Last month’s cap-and-trade auction for greenhouse gases, expected to provide $150 million for the train, yielded a mere $2.5 million. And no investors are lining up to fill the $43 billion construction-budget gap.

Now, courtesy of Los Angeles Times reporter Ralph Vartabedian, comes yet another damning revelation: When the Spanish construction company Ferrovial submitted its winning bid for a 22-mile segment, the proposal included a clear and inconvenient warning: “More than likely, the California high speed rail will require large government subsidies for years to come.” Ferrovial reviewed 111 similar systems around the world and found only three that cover their operating costs.

This research should surprise no one who pays attention. Even advocates acknowledge that almost all high-speed rail systems need ongoing subsidies.

But the California High-Speed Rail Authority steadfastly maintains that its trains will be the exception: “HIGH-SPEED RAIL IN CALIFORNIA WILL NOT REQUIRE OPERATING SUBSIDIES,” a 2013 fact sheet declared, in all caps. The authority has to keep up the charade or admit to breaking the promises that persuaded voters to back the project in the first place.

At an April state assembly hearing, the authority’s chairman asserted that “virtually all” the world’s high-speed rail operations make operating profits. Not true. “It is very easy to falsify a claim like ‘Every HSR system in the world collects revenues that cover their cost,' ” Bent Flyvbjerg, a professor at Oxford’s Saïd Business School who studies infrastructure cost overruns, told Vartabedian.

The truly damning revelation, however, isn’t just that Ferrovial’s research flatly contradicts the California authority. It’s that the company's warning on subsidies disappeared from the version of the bid posted on the state’s website. The Times obtained a copy of the full document on a data disk under a public records act request.

The high-speed rail project is a classic example of how concentrated benefits and diffused costs shape public policy, even when the general public has a direct say. Back in 2008, the bond referendum faced no organized opposition. Voters might have preferred that the money go to schools, parks, roads, social services or even local trains, but those alternatives weren’t on the ballot. It was an up-down vote on whether to let a tiny bit of tax money per person go to fund a really cool train -- and all the companies that would work on building it. Voters looked at the streamlined concept images and thought, Wouldn’t that be great? Whoosh!

But a closer look even back then would have made it clear that, barring a miracle, the rail project wouldn’t keep its promises. To do so, it would have to be the fastest, most popular bullet train in the world, with many more riders per mile and a much greater percentage of seats occupied than the French and Japanese systems -- a highly unlikely prospect. Yet only the most determined wonk would have discovered these comparisons.

Some of those who knew better still succumbed to the glamour of the idea. “There's something undeniably alluring about a bullet train -- the technology is so powerful, the speed so breathtaking, it makes quotidian trips seem exotic,” opined the Times's editorial board in October 2008. Admitting that “it seems close to a lead-pipe cinch that the California High-Speed Rail Authority will ask for many billions more in the coming decades, and the Legislature will have to scrape up many millions of dollars in operating subsidies,” it nonetheless concluded that “we still think voters should give in to the measure's gleaming promise.” Give in they did.

Eight years later, the legislature is getting antsy. Last month, the state assembly unanimously passed a bill requiring that the authority provide clearer statements of route changes and projected expenses, including borrowing costs. The state senate will hold a hearing on the bill Tuesday.

The measure sounds like basic democratic hygiene. But it’s a big deal. "It is the awakening of the magnitude of the issue in front of us,” the bill’s sponsor Jim Patterson, a Republican from Fresno, told the Times. "The project has moved from spotty opposition in the legislature to growing concern.”

Lieutenant Governor Gavin Newsom, the first announced candidate for governor in 2018, has said that barring something “really significant,” he can’t see taking the money from other infrastructure projects. The officials who have to make the budget tradeoffs that weren’t on the ballot in 2008 are finally pushing back. The question now is when they’ll have the guts to pull the plug.

 
a closer look even back then would have made it clear that, barring a miracle, the rail project wouldn’t keep its promises. To do so, it would have to be the fastest, most popular bullet train in the world, with many more riders per mile and a much greater percentage of seats occupied than the French and Japanese systems -- a highly unlikely prospect. Yet only the most determined wonk would have discovered these comparisons.


This is my favorite part: "Only the most determined wonk" would have figured out all the lies and BS in this thing. You know, except for all of us here who said exactly all this stuff in this thread and others, way back then.

 
Would be far more wise to invest in local / regional transit and mobility rather than connecting separate metros. It brings far more economic benefit / ROI and would also have FAR greater positive environmental impact.

At this point, high speed is not a really viable option, although such connectivity is needed to remain competitive globally, it's just not the ROI to make sense as it stands today. 

Now, the 30 billion already committed and likely 120 billion more for metro, light rail and commuter rail in and around LA makes all the sense in the world and will help propel that region for generations to come. 

 
It'll be at least $250 million dollars a mile, and no one will ride it. 

Money well spent. 
Musk estimates a Hyperloop from SF to LA will come in at 6B.  Total.

While that is probably fantasy, even if he's off by an order of magnitude he could save Californians near a hundred billion.

 
I just wished we had more lanes. 

Traffic in the IE is getting redonk!
The 91/15 junction is awful (call it the Corona crawl) but the worst traffic in the area is coming down the hill into (and through) Temecula.  It's nightmare-ish.  Something must be done.  

 
The 91/15 junction is awful (call it the Corona crawl) but the worst traffic in the area is coming down the hill into (and through) Temecula.  It's nightmare-ish.  Something must be done.  
Yep... that's my area (Murrieta).

Reminds me of the Orange County Crush back in early 90's before they added lanes and freeways to help.

There's only one way through that area and it's just far too many people/vehicles.

 
Sand said:
Musk estimates a Hyperloop from SF to LA will come in at 6B.  Total.

While that is probably fantasy, even if he's off by an order of magnitude he could save Californians near a hundred billion.
It shouldn't surprise anyone that a government project is behind schedule and over-budget.

 
Probably have to give back the Fed money if they don't make this 2022 deadline.

One of the top priorities now, Kelly said, is to fulfill the state's obligations under $3.5 billion in grants that the Obama administration provided, which require that 119 miles of track be completed and all of the project's environmental clearances be obtained by 2022. The federal government could theoretically ask for its money back if those requirements are not met, officials close to the project say.

 
Just like virtually every large private project as well.  
Let's not pretend like either of us have the projected and final cost and completion date of every infrastructure project ever undertaken.

Suffice to say that private projects are beholden to investors/stockholders/shareholders. They are built to maximize profits. 
Government projects are the bright ideas of politicians who don't care if money is wasted.

 
Man we get screwed with this 10K cap on state/property taxes. Maybe time to buy a place in Vegas as my new residence. 
Been meaning to ask you since I know you’re from TOaks - my brothers girlfriends family lives in Westlake off Oakshore.  That your hood?

 
California economics......California politics........

I made the move to Henderson, NV last month. Should have done it YEARS ago!!
This has less to do with Cali politics than the ingrained, ineffecient, politically driven and outcome-blind (nearly) approach we take to infrastructure. 

That said, Cali politics certainly won't help, and the likely first stop for true high speed rail is here in Texas. But our nation will be so woefully behind the infrastructure curve by then (in many ways we already are), it's gonna be too little too late and too limited in reach.

 
California economics......California politics........

I made the move to Henderson, NV last month. Should have done it YEARS ago!!
I will take some stupid decisions (can't believe that Bullet Train initiative passed) over summers in Henderson.

 
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Not surprised - anytime you have a change this monumental it will be a bumpy road.  Of course CA's strong economy and tax revenues elsewhere mean that this shortfall isn't much of an issue.  CA continues to run budget surplus - this is what fiscal conservatives told us what would happen, right?    

The state budget is in good shape to weather a moderate recession, and lawmakers should be able to sock away more money in reserves next year, according to projections the nonpartisan Legislative Analyst’s Office issued Wednesday.

The LAO’s outlook shows the state would finish its 2018-19 budget year with more than $19 billion in reserves – assuming lawmakers and Gov. Jerry Brown don’t make any more spending commitments. About $11 billion is obligated for the state’s rainy-day fund.

Lawmakers could spend about $7.5 billion of the surplus, although analysts recommend that they save it to prepare for a recession.

 
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Not surprised - anytime you have a change this monumental it will be a bumpy road.  Of course CA's strong economy and tax revenues elsewhere mean that this shortfall isn't much of an issue.  CA continues to run budget surplus - this is what fiscal conservatives told us what would happen, right?    
CA currently has about a 400B dollar debt.  So, congrats, now they're down to 392 - unless they decide to spend it, which they undoubtedly will.  I'm guessing it won't go to pensions.

Because, heck, this doesn't even begin to plug the gaping holes in Calpers or CalSTRS.

 
CA currently has about a 400B dollar debt.  So, congrats, now they're down to 392 - unless they decide to spend it, which they undoubtedly will.  I'm guessing it won't go to pensions.

Because, heck, this doesn't even begin to plug the gaping holes in Calpers or CalSTRS.
Why don't we raise taxes so that we can pay teachers market rates and they can contribute to their own retirements, instead of enticing them to accept lower wages now with the generous pension programs?  
 

 

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