Can somebody explain in their own words (1 Viewer)

[bostonfred]

He did bad things during his contract renegotiation with the Eagles?  OK, but the reason he did those bad things is gone. 

BF -Do you have a link to support this statement or a legit argument supporting it?

This is the core difference between BF and the field. BF's whole argument is hitched to his belief that T.O. is happy. The field's counter-argument is, "We have seen T.O. say he is happy and then 6 months later change his mind in regards to what he wants and become unhappy again."

My whole argument is not hitched to the belief that Owens is happy. How many times do I have to say this? Who cares if Owens is happy? Lots of teams have won with unhappy players.

The real question is whether Owens will cause a significant problem during the season. The only time that this has happened was with the Eagles. In fact, the only time he has failed to contribute to the Eagles during the season was when they suspended/benched him, which they only did because of a combination of their poor management and the poor tactic he chose while negotiating with the Eagles.

At his alleged worst with the 49ers, he won a playoff game due almost entirely to the great game he played and his leadership in that game. The defense was weak, the offense was lethargic, but Owens came in and individually lifted the team up over the Giants.

Now, he has a three year contract, one that pays him well each year, and one that has a large salary in the back years that makes it easily restructurable if the team decides they want to keep him around, and makes him easily cuttable if they decide they don't. He has an agent, and doesn't seem to be in any hurry to change. So unlike the Eagles' situation, there's no real reason for him to try to renegotiate.

I say the burden of proof lies on you, not me. Why do you think that he will do something that he only once did before, when the situation is entirely different? And why do you think that will be enough of an issue that he won't be able to significantly help the team?

 

[bostonfred]

He did bad things during his contract renegotiation with the Eagles?  OK, but the reason he did those bad things is gone. 

BF -Do you have a link to support this statement or a legit argument supporting it?

Sure. In Philadelphia, he had a new agent in Rosenhaus who would not earn any money from his client unless they negotiated a new contract, whispering in his ear that he was underpaid. He was told in no uncertain terms not to hold out, was told they would not renegotiate, and so he told the Eagles that he was going to play, and play well, but make it too difficult on them to keep him. Almost all of the incidents that the Eagles raised in their arbitration case occurred AFTER Owens made this statement.

Another player in another sport once made the same kind of claims, except he even tanked the game while he was on the field. The team eventually traded him, and he ended up putting up huge numbers in the future. While he caused problems and was an irritant on a lot of teams, he is well respected for the impact he's had on the game.

And while we're talking about Gary Sheffield, let's talk about Barry Bonds. Owens is kind of like Bonds - a huge distraction in the clubhouse but an exceptional, rare talent. Except the thing is, Owens doesn't cheat.

Um...has Bonds been suspended for breaking the rules? TO has.

Great point about the hypocrisy of the media and fans.

 

[Ozymandias]

In my own words.

TO has a mouth and an ######.

And they're interchangeable.

Hmmm...interesting. A four letter word gets six ######.

 

[cstu]

He did bad things during his contract renegotiation with the Eagles? OK, but the reason he did those bad things is gone.

BF -Do you have a link to support this statement or a legit argument supporting it?

Sure. In Philadelphia, he had a new agent in Rosenhaus who would not earn any money from his client unless they negotiated a new contract, whispering in his ear that he was underpaid. He was told in no uncertain terms not to hold out, was told they would not renegotiate, and so he told the Eagles that he was going to play, and play well, but make it too difficult on them to keep him. Almost all of the incidents that the Eagles raised in their arbitration case occurred AFTER Owens made this statement.

Another player in another sport once made the same kind of claims, except he even tanked the game while he was on the field. The team eventually traded him, and he ended up putting up huge numbers in the future. While he caused problems and was an irritant on a lot of teams, he is well respected for the impact he's had on the game.

And while we're talking about Gary Sheffield, let's talk about Barry Bonds. Owens is kind of like Bonds - a huge distraction in the clubhouse but an exceptional, rare talent. Except the thing is, Owens doesn't cheat.

Great, you're defending TO by comparing him to two of the most miserable athletes in sports history.

 

[Tackling Dummies]

I think we have truly exhausted the varying and sundry ways in which he is a problem.  Do a topic search.

I think it would be cool if we had an Emoticon with a guy beating a dead horse.

beating the dead horse

 

[bostonfred]

He did bad things during his contract renegotiation with the Eagles?  OK, but the reason he did those bad things is gone. 

BF -Do you have a link to support this statement or a legit argument supporting it?

Sure. In Philadelphia, he had a new agent in Rosenhaus who would not earn any money from his client unless they negotiated a new contract, whispering in his ear that he was underpaid. He was told in no uncertain terms not to hold out, was told they would not renegotiate, and so he told the Eagles that he was going to play, and play well, but make it too difficult on them to keep him. Almost all of the incidents that the Eagles raised in their arbitration case occurred AFTER Owens made this statement.

Another player in another sport once made the same kind of claims, except he even tanked the game while he was on the field. The team eventually traded him, and he ended up putting up huge numbers in the future. While he caused problems and was an irritant on a lot of teams, he is well respected for the impact he's had on the game.

And while we're talking about Gary Sheffield, let's talk about Barry Bonds. Owens is kind of like Bonds - a huge distraction in the clubhouse but an exceptional, rare talent. Except the thing is, Owens doesn't cheat.

Great, you're defending TO by comparing him to two of the most miserable athletes in sports history.

That's a great point, and thanks for bringing it up. No, I'm not defending Owens. I'm not saying he's a nice guy. I'm not saying he's not, as you say, a miserable athlete. But like Owens, both Bonds and Sheffield have made it to their respective championships, so the divisive effects people claim they have appear to be overrated. Look, I'm not asking anyone to CHEER for him. I'm just asking why people think he'll destroy whatever team he goes to.

 

[bostonfred]

I should be ashamed of myself for being surprised that nobody can defend the conventional wisdom.

 

[jdoggydogg]

Fact:

TO is an immature, selfish, poisonous player.

Evidence:

- While playing with the 49ers, TO complains about Jeff Garcia several times in public. In a Playboy interview, Owens implies that Garcia is gay. I am fairly certain that no major receiver in the history of football has ever so slandered his QB. Even Michael Irvin, a notoriously brazen player in his day, said that a WR shouldn't rip his QB that way.

- After a loss to Chicago, Owens says that coach Steve Mariucci purposely lost the game to help Mariucci's buddy **** Juron.

- Owens gets traded to the Ravens and whines that he doesn't want to play for that team.

- After supposedly getting traded to the team he wanted to play for, Owens accuses Donovan McNabb (one of the most respected players in the NFL) of being soft.

- Less that a year after signing a contract that the player's union WARNED OWENS NOT TO SIGN, Owens demanded a new contract.

======================================

If people want to live in a fantasy world and pretend that Owens is a victim of media bias, or that Owens is just misunderstood, that's great. But if you'd like to travel back to reality, Owens could be the most selfish person that has ever played in the NFL.

 

[pettifogger]

He did bad things during his contract renegotiation with the Eagles?  OK, but the reason he did those bad things is gone. 

BF -Do you have a link to support this statement or a legit argument supporting it?

Sure. In Philadelphia, he had a new agent in Rosenhaus who would not earn any money from his client unless they negotiated a new contract, whispering in his ear that he was underpaid. He was told in no uncertain terms not to hold out, was told they would not renegotiate, and so he told the Eagles that he was going to play, and play well, but make it too difficult on them to keep him. Almost all of the incidents that the Eagles raised in their arbitration case occurred AFTER Owens made this statement.

Another player in another sport once made the same kind of claims, except he even tanked the game while he was on the field. The team eventually traded him, and he ended up putting up huge numbers in the future. While he caused problems and was an irritant on a lot of teams, he is well respected for the impact he's had on the game.

And while we're talking about Gary Sheffield, let's talk about Barry Bonds. Owens is kind of like Bonds - a huge distraction in the clubhouse but an exceptional, rare talent. Except the thing is, Owens doesn't cheat.

I recall hearing Rosenhaus saying directly that TO would have a difficult time putting in a full effort ON THE FIELD because he was unhappy. The arbitrator's opinon cites examples of Owens refusing to talk to the head coach or OC, simply staring away when they talked; going into team meetings without his playbook or refusing to open the playbook and listen to discussions. Do you think this described conduct is OK? Do you think it's a legitimate bargaining tactic?

 

[pettifogger]

He did bad things during his contract renegotiation with the Eagles?  OK, but the reason he did those bad things is gone. 

BF -Do you have a link to support this statement or a legit argument supporting it?

This is the core difference between BF and the field. BF's whole argument is hitched to his belief that T.O. is happy. The field's counter-argument is, "We have seen T.O. say he is happy and then 6 months later change his mind in regards to what he wants and become unhappy again."

My whole argument is not hitched to the belief that Owens is happy. How many times do I have to say this? Who cares if Owens is happy? Lots of teams have won with unhappy players.

The real question is whether Owens will cause a significant problem during the season. The only time that this has happened was with the Eagles. In fact, the only time he has failed to contribute to the Eagles during the season was when they suspended/benched him, which they only did because of a combination of their poor management and the poor tactic he chose while negotiating with the Eagles.

At his alleged worst with the 49ers, he won a playoff game due almost entirely to the great game he played and his leadership in that game. The defense was weak, the offense was lethargic, but Owens came in and individually lifted the team up over the Giants.

Now, he has a three year contract, one that pays him well each year, and one that has a large salary in the back years that makes it easily restructurable if the team decides they want to keep him around, and makes him easily cuttable if they decide they don't. He has an agent, and doesn't seem to be in any hurry to change. So unlike the Eagles' situation, there's no real reason for him to try to renegotiate.

I say the burden of proof lies on you, not me. Why do you think that he will do something that he only once did before, when the situation is entirely different? And why do you think that will be enough of an issue that he won't be able to significantly help the team?

When the 49ers refused to give him a contract extension he said openly he would not risk going over the middle on pass plays for fear of injury. I went to games where he didn't run out patterns.

 

[bostonfred]

Fact:

TO is an immature, selfish, poisonous player.

Evidence:

.

.

.

If people want to live in a fantasy world and pretend that Owens is a victim of media bias, or that Owens is just misunderstood, that's great. But if you'd like to travel back to reality, Owens could be the most selfish person that has ever played in the NFL.

I don't think we're that far apart, really. I agree that Owens is selfish. That's not really what this thread is about, though.

 

[jdoggydogg]

Fact:

TO is an immature, selfish, poisonous player.

Evidence:

.

.

.

If people want to live in a fantasy world and pretend that Owens is a victim of media bias, or that Owens is just misunderstood, that's great. But if you'd like to travel back to reality, Owens could be the most selfish person that has ever played in the NFL.

I don't think we're that far apart, really. I agree that Owens is selfish. That's not really what this thread is about, though.

That's a polite response to my rather heated post It's not that I think Owens doesn't deserve lots of money. A player that dynamic deserves (and always gets) plenty of money. I have long argued that teams who don't give their best players good contracts are profiting immorally. Looking at guys like Javon Walker, I can see why players hold out. Walker played for peanuts in NFL terms, and the Packers refused to pay him. What did he get? Injured without a contract that fits his talent.

But the problem is that Owens got all the money a person could ever spend, and he STILL complained. Owens is a great player, so teams will put up with his personality.

 

[BassNBrew]

Gentlemen - We should be honored that Drew Rosenhaus has blessed us with his contributions to the shark pool. FWIW, he's a decent fantasy football player, albeit terrible judge of character.

 

[bostonfred]

When the 49ers refused to give him a contract extension he said openly he would not risk going over the middle on pass plays for fear of injury. I went to games where he didn't run out patterns.

I don't have a ton of respect for that, but how did he end up doing that year? Top 15 in every receiving category and top 10 in TDs, despite missing two games with a broken collarbone. It doesn't sound like he was taking it that easy out there.

 

[bostonfred]

I recall hearing Rosenhaus saying directly that TO would have a difficult time putting in a full effort ON THE FIELD because he was unhappy. The arbitrator's opinon cites examples of Owens refusing to talk to the head coach or OC, simply staring away when they talked; going into team meetings without his playbook or refusing to open the playbook and listen to discussions.

Do you think this described conduct is OK? Do you think it's a legitimate bargaining tactic?

I don't know if it's legitimate or not. I think it was a stupid bargaining tactic. I also think Owens's first agent got him into a mess by failing to file free agency papers, and his second agent gave him bad advice in the negotiation you're describing.

I also think Rosenhaus put a lot of pressure on Owens to renegotiate, saying he was way underpaid, and really talking up his accomplishments, because that was the only way Rosenhaus would get a commission.

But again, we're getting sidetracked here. Regardless of whether you like his behavior, do you believe as many here do that he will instantly drag a team down? I don't.

 

[bostonfred]

Gentlemen - We should be honored that Drew Rosenhaus has blessed us with his contributions to the shark pool. FWIW, he's a decent fantasy football player, albeit terrible judge of character.

This thread isn't about judging character. I'm fairly certain it only exists so you can come in and make pithy comments.

 

[jdoggydogg]

But again, we're getting sidetracked here. Regardless of whether you like his behavior, do you believe as many here do that he will instantly drag a team down? I don't.

I think it's easy for a talent like Owens to inject Dallas with a lot of energy. That'll be the honeymoon. It remains to be seen if Owens can act like an adult for a prolonged amount of time. So far, he has not been able to do that.

 

[bostonfred]

But again, we're getting sidetracked here.  Regardless of whether you like his behavior, do you believe as many here do that he will instantly drag a team down?  I don't.

I think it's easy for a talent like Owens to inject Dallas with a lot of energy. That'll be the honeymoon. It remains to be seen if Owens can act like an adult for a prolonged amount of time. So far, he has not been able to do that.

He hasn't? What about his first eight years in San Francisco when he averaged 1100 yards and 10 TDs per game? During which he had a span of four years where he averaged 1300 yards and 13 TDs? I think a lot of people are extrapolating their one data point - his tenure with the Eagles, when he tried (poorly I might add) to renegotiate a contract - and turn it into a trend. Statements like "He has not been able to... act like an adult for a prolonged period of time" are accepted as true because in general, people only remember the last couple years.

 

[pettifogger]

I recall hearing Rosenhaus saying directly that TO would have a difficult time putting in a full effort ON THE FIELD because he was unhappy.  The arbitrator's opinon cites examples of Owens refusing to talk to the head coach or OC, simply staring away when they talked; going into team meetings without his playbook or refusing to open the playbook and listen to discussions. 

Do you think this described conduct is OK?  Do you think it's a legitimate bargaining tactic?

I don't know if it's legitimate or not. I think it was a stupid bargaining tactic. I also think Owens's first agent got him into a mess by failing to file free agency papers, and his second agent gave him bad advice in the negotiation you're describing.

I also think Rosenhaus put a lot of pressure on Owens to renegotiate, saying he was way underpaid, and really talking up his accomplishments, because that was the only way Rosenhaus would get a commission.

But again, we're getting sidetracked here. Regardless of whether you like his behavior, do you believe as many here do that he will instantly drag a team down? I don't.

Instantly, no. He is capable of great things and if properly motivated will certainly contribute. And there remains the possibility that he could mature.

My deep seated grudge against him is that he basically said he would not put in a full effort with the 49ers because they did not meet his demands, and did the same thing with the Eagles. If a player holds out, declares free agency, asks for a trade, or threatens to retire, I always consider that a business decision -- owners will certainly take advantage of players if the opportunity arises. But, negotiating by saying "I'll take the money, but not put in a full effort unless I get a raise" to me is not an acceptable alternative. It takes a dispute between the player and owner into the realm of cheating the paying fans.

 

[bostonfred]

I recall hearing Rosenhaus saying directly that TO would have a difficult time putting in a full effort ON THE FIELD because he was unhappy.  The arbitrator's opinon cites examples of Owens refusing to talk to the head coach or OC, simply staring away when they talked; going into team meetings without his playbook or refusing to open the playbook and listen to discussions. 

Do you think this described conduct is OK?  Do you think it's a legitimate bargaining tactic?

I don't know if it's legitimate or not. I think it was a stupid bargaining tactic. I also think Owens's first agent got him into a mess by failing to file free agency papers, and his second agent gave him bad advice in the negotiation you're describing.

I also think Rosenhaus put a lot of pressure on Owens to renegotiate, saying he was way underpaid, and really talking up his accomplishments, because that was the only way Rosenhaus would get a commission.

But again, we're getting sidetracked here. Regardless of whether you like his behavior, do you believe as many here do that he will instantly drag a team down? I don't.

Instantly, no. He is capable of great things and if properly motivated will certainly contribute. And there remains the possibility that he could mature.

My deep seated grudge against him is that he basically said he would not put in a full effort with the 49ers because they did not meet his demands, and did the same thing with the Eagles. If a player holds out, declares free agency, asks for a trade, or threatens to retire, I always consider that a business decision -- owners will certainly take advantage of players if the opportunity arises. But, negotiating by saying "I'll take the money, but not put in a full effort unless I get a raise" to me is not an acceptable alternative. It takes a dispute between the player and owner into the realm of cheating the paying fans.

I'm assuming you have the same grudge against John Abraham, then. And I can understand that. I think a lot of fans have grudges against players that do things they don't like. I just think some people are extrapolating that grudge into bad football analysis.

 

[jdoggydogg]

I think a lot of people are extrapolating their one data point - his tenure with the Eagles, when he tried (poorly I might add) to renegotiate a contract - and turn it into a trend.

I wouldn't call Owens' history of exploits "one data point."

 

[bostonfred]

I think a lot of people are extrapolating their one data point - his tenure with the Eagles, when he tried (poorly I might add) to renegotiate a contract - and turn it into a trend.

I wouldn't call Owens' history of exploits "one data point."

It's one of many data points about generally irritating behavior. It's the only data point of him irritating management enough to get suspended or benched.

It's also the only data point where he was trying to irritate them enough to get cut.

Which is why it's not a good data point to use in determining his future. Unless all you're interested in is whether he'll make friends. And from a football perspective, you don't need to be.

 

[cobalt_27]

But again, we're getting sidetracked here. Regardless of whether you like his behavior, do you believe as many here do that he will instantly drag a team down? I don't.

I think it's easy for a talent like Owens to inject Dallas with a lot of energy. That'll be the honeymoon. It remains to be seen if Owens can act like an adult for a prolonged amount of time. So far, he has not been able to do that.

He hasn't? What about his first eight years in San Francisco when he averaged 1100 yards and 10 TDs per game? During which he had a span of four years where he averaged 1300 yards and 13 TDs? I think a lot of people are extrapolating their one data point - his tenure with the Eagles, when he tried (poorly I might add) to renegotiate a contract - and turn it into a trend. Statements like "He has not been able to... act like an adult for a prolonged period of time" are accepted as true because in general, people only remember the last couple years.

Remote memory down?

 

[cobalt_27]

But again, we're getting sidetracked here. Regardless of whether you like his behavior, do you believe as many here do that he will instantly drag a team down? I don't.

I think it's easy for a talent like Owens to inject Dallas with a lot of energy. That'll be the honeymoon. It remains to be seen if Owens can act like an adult for a prolonged amount of time. So far, he has not been able to do that.

He hasn't? What about his first eight years in San Francisco when he averaged 1100 yards and 10 TDs per game? During which he had a span of four years where he averaged 1300 yards and 13 TDs? I think a lot of people are extrapolating their one data point - his tenure with the Eagles, when he tried (poorly I might add) to renegotiate a contract - and turn it into a trend. Statements like "He has not been able to... act like an adult for a prolonged period of time" are accepted as true because in general, people only remember the last couple years.

And threw Jerry Rice and his QB under the bus? I ain't buyin, I'm selling this whole one data point argument.* Edited to add that I do admire the respect he showed for Mooch, though.

 

[jdoggydogg]

I think a lot of people are extrapolating their one data point - his tenure with the Eagles, when he tried (poorly I might add) to renegotiate a contract - and turn it into a trend.

I wouldn't call Owens' history of exploits "one data point."

It's the only data point of him irritating management enough to get suspended or benched.

Are you forgetting that Owens was suspended by SF for conduct detrimental to the team?

 

[cobalt_27]

But again, we're getting sidetracked here. Regardless of whether you like his behavior, do you believe as many here do that he will instantly drag a team down? I don't.

I think it's easy for a talent like Owens to inject Dallas with a lot of energy. That'll be the honeymoon. It remains to be seen if Owens can act like an adult for a prolonged amount of time. So far, he has not been able to do that.

He hasn't? What about his first eight years in San Francisco when he averaged 1100 yards and 10 TDs per game? During which he had a span of four years where he averaged 1300 yards and 13 TDs? I think a lot of people are extrapolating their one data point - his tenure with the Eagles, when he tried (poorly I might add) to renegotiate a contract - and turn it into a trend. Statements like "He has not been able to... act like an adult for a prolonged period of time" are accepted as true because in general, people only remember the last couple years.

Relevent phrase: "act like an adult" for a prolonged period of time--not have some nice stats over a few consecutive years.And, you are (deliberately?) ignoring what an ### he was in 'Frisco before pulling a pseudo-Soriano on Baltimore and before reaching pantheon ingrate status in Philly.

 

[rascal]

Here is a good reason...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2377168