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Can Trump be considered a fascist? (2 Viewers)

As I have said many many times, the most obvious political analogy to Trump is Joe McCarthy. He also has a bit of Huey Long in him, though I suspect that Huey was a much smarter guy. 

 
mcintyre1 said:
Thanks Joe, I am trying to have a serious discussion on this, and I do think it is a very important one to have.

However, this response also feeds in to my point a bit. There's so much baggage attached to the term that we effectively no longer use it to describe anyone in a real manner. I'd argue that, by avoiding the use of the term so thoroughly, we're also blinding ourselves to the idea that fascism isn't and wasn't a one time thing, but more a result of some common human fears and beliefs about identity and unity. I further fear that in so blinding ourselves, we risk opening up a path for the return of the very things that led to the abhorrence of the term in the first place.




4
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I totally agree with the bolded. 

I read the following quote from an article in The Atlantic and David Frum quoted a Hungarian and it opened my mind.

“The benefit of controlling a modern state is less the power to persecute the innocent, more the power to protect the guilty.”

 
Sand said:
Without addressing the factual assertion that the Trump admin is having daily conference calls with Hannity saying Hannity is a reporter is objectively false.  He's a commentator.

Now, whether we can consider WaPo reporters to be reporters is another matter entirely.  :P
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You know Fox viewers take Hannity as news.

Please provide examples of WaPo reporters presentation of "fake news".

 
Just look at the definition. He's not fascist. There are lots of issues, but this isn't the label to give him. 

 
timschochet said:
As I have said many many times, the most obvious political analogy to Trump is Joe McCarthy. He also has a bit of Huey Long in him, though I suspect that Huey was a much smarter guy. 
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Huey & McCarthy are two totally opposite people and Huey was considerably more dangerous. I am not familiar with McCarthy profiteering off of government, Huey definitely did (in fact his heirs still do). In that respect and the blurring of private & public Trump is definitely more like Huey. He has Huey’s clownish demeanor and outlandishness. Huey was probably on his way to splitting the Dem party too. 

 
The McCarthy comp comes in the identification of enemies of the people within the (deep) state. That’s the most obvious example. But McCarty was a one trick pony.

 
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trump is at least trying to give the impression that he's gone full nazi with these deportation camps. i would love to hear credible arguments as to why he shouldn't be considered a fascist at this juncture. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Huey & McCarthy are two totally opposite people and Huey was considerably more dangerous. I am not familiar with McCarthy profiteering off of government, Huey definitely did (in fact his heirs still do). In that respect and the blurring of private & public Trump is definitely more like Huey. He has Huey’s clownish demeanor and outlandishness. Huey was probably on his way to splitting the Dem party too. 
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According to several historians Huey Long is the one man in our history who really could have become a dictator. He was prepared to run against FDR in 1936 and who knows how he would have done? 

I agree that the clown act is much like Trump. But in every way Huey was more competent a politician than Trump. Just as corrupt, but I don’t think he was a bigot (even though he came from the Deep South, segregationists couldn’t stand him.) 

Arguably the most dangerous politician in our history....

 
Ilov80s said:
Just look at the definition. He's not fascist. There are lots of issues, but this isn't the label to give him. 
Click to expand...
:shrug:

noun

a person who believes in or sympathizes with fascism.

Fascism

noun

(sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

I am looking at the definition, and I don't think its a stretch to think that Trump sympathizes with fascism.

 
Sinn Fein said:
:shrug:

noun

a person who believes in or sympathizes with fascism.

Fascism

noun

(sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

I am looking at the definition, and I don't think its a stretch to think that Trump sympathizes with fascism.
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Wikipedia has better explanations and ones you could better make fit your argument. Can someone who says Trump is not a fascist use those definitions to defend Trump?

 
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I think we've had some good discussion in this thread on both the side of why some are so concerned, and why those who are concerned may be taking things too far. I don't expect this to be a long running thread, really, but I think a frequent rethinking of this topic is good for a society like ours.

To explain a bit where I came from in wanting to have this thread, I'm going to borrow from an excellent piece of writing by Milton Mayer, an interview with a citizen of Germany about his experiences and reflections with the rise of fascism in his own country. I'd recommend reading the whole excerpt, but it is fairly long, so I won't be quoting the entire thing here.

I think these thoughts are important to consider regardless of who is in power, but I'd be lying if I said anything other than that I believe we currently have a greater reason for concern than ever before in my lifetime.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. ... Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about—we were decent people—and kept us so busy with continuous changes and ‘crises’ and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the ‘national enemies,’ without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it—please try to believe me—unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted,’ that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these ‘little measures’ that no ‘patriotic German’ could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice—‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have. And everyone counts on that might.

...

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?—Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, ‘everyone’ is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

...

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in—your nation, your people—is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.
Click to expand...

 
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My personal favorite among the rant style comedy political commentators actually focused on this question in his latest video: Trump Isn't Hitler

I'm guessing this won't convince anyone that isn't already on board with the idea that Trump/Trumpism is a form of fascism, but I thought this video explained a lot of my own personal thoughts that I have had trouble getting across at times.

 
Fascist?  LOL

He said he was going to blow up the system. He ran on the very things that everyone is now objecting to.

Here is a less than 6-minute video that summarizes his stances:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ&feature=youtu.be

He was elected by the people.    

Instead of whining 24/7, let's see if the Democrats can:

1. Address their own corruption within their party

2. Execute a get out and vote strategy to get a government more in line with all the things they are objecting to nonstop.

 
David Dodds said:
Fascist?  LOL

He said he was going to blow up the system. He ran on the very things that everyone is now objecting to.

Here is a less than 6-minute video that summarizes his stances:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ&feature=youtu.be

He was elected by the people.    

Instead of whining 24/7, let's see if the Democrats can:

1. Address their own corruption within their party

2. Execute a get out and vote strategy to get a government more in line with all the things they are objecting to nonstop.
Click to expand...
Doesn’t discount the fact he is corrupt 

 
All of the sudden Trump is a Republican now to Republicans. It wasn’t like that during the GOP Primaries. 

 
David Dodds said:
Fascist?  LOL

He said he was going to blow up the system. He ran on the very things that everyone is now objecting to.
Click to expand...
So wait...you think Trump has made DC less corrupt than it was?   That was the opening statement in the video.  

He's taken his reality show persona and style has made DC even more politically corrupt than it was before.  

Take the latest replacement for Pruitt at the EPA.  What is the EPA designed to to?   Do you really think a lobbyist from the coal industry is really going to run the EPA for the best interest of the country?  Honest question.

 
urbanhack said:
So wait...you think Trump has made DC less corrupt than it was?   That was the opening statement in the video.  

He's taken his reality show persona and style has made DC even more politically corrupt than it was before.  

Take the latest replacement for Pruitt at the EPA.  What is the EPA designed to to?   Do you really think a lobbyist from the coal industry is really going to run the EPA for the best interest of the country?  Honest question.
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Doesn't matter what I think.  This is what he ran on and is remarkably similar to the things he is implementing that people are losing their minds over. 

 
He’s a Misguided Nationalist. He mostly wants Donald Trump to do well above anything else. After that, he has a bunch of haphazard ideas like tariffs (he prefers “trade wars” in his terminology), anti-immigration, anti-Mexican and anti-Muslim stances that make him popular with some segments of voters. Then he simply tops all that off by making false enemies out of those that don’t agree with him, usually by calling them childish names on Twitter. 

So while he may exhibit fascist tendencies, it’s only a coincidence based on the above. Dollars to donuts he can’t even spell fascism, let alone describe what it is. The guy can barely read for crying out loud. 

 
David Dodds said:
Instead of whining 24/7, let's see if the Democrats can:

1. Address their own corruption within their party
Click to expand...
Right. Let me know when the Democrats have a deputy finance chair under investigation for bank fraud or when they have another deputy finance chair involved in a scandal involving a million-dollar payoff for an abortion, or when they have a Presidentially-endorsed Senate candidate who admits to dating teen girls, or when they have a Congressman who allegedly covered up more molestations than Joe Paterno, or when they lead a Senate committee that gets caught grandstanding and tries to bury the story in a last-minute July 3rd news dump, or when a bunch of Democratic congressmen decide to celebrate the Fourth Of July in Russia with a bunch of Vladimir Putin's cronies.

Because that would sound like a pretty corrupt political party, don'tcha think?

 
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Trump is a fascist.  He would assume the authoritarian leadership role to implement that ideology if he could.  But he can’t.  The separation of powers in the US is too entrenched.   

The fact that he ran on policies that underpin his fascist ideology and that the “people” voted for that is conflating the issue and completely irrelevant to the discussion.  

Koya’s list upthread is accurate.  That is trump.  And that is the hallmark of a fascist Imo. 

 
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I want to vote a Dem..but they need to back the working men and women. Right now all the Dems care about is the special interest groups.  They should be cared about but that is not going to win an election. Dems have lost their base.

 
Koya said:
Again, I'd suggest it's "fascist tendencies" rather than "being a fascist" at this point, but:

  • Hyper Nationalism
  • Scapegoating segments of the population
  • Using language to dehumanize people - then putting into practice policies that do so even more, justified by said language
  • Militarism and idolization of military might, power and strenght
  • Demand for loyalty, and purging those who do not show it
  • Unwillingness to admit fault and/or come to a compromise (because a totalitarian is always right, by definion.  His definition, but that's the only one that counts)
  • Attacking and undermining the free press and denying access to those that don't portray the story as you demand
  • Creating complete media channels that are essentially propaganda machines - and utilizing them in a concerted manner
  • Continually telling lies, obviously blatant ones even, and having a regime that lies as a basic M.O. (as Goebbels said, tell a lie often enough and it becomes truth)
  • The above two and other efforts to essentially undercut what is "objective truth" - so the fascist regime can insert "its" truth in an envioronment that no longer has an objective measure by which to clearly call out their lies
  • Seek to deny voice to certain populations
  • Looks to inflict pain and suffering upon those who do not see things his way, and in general, to populations that may be weak/without political standing and/or clout
  • Lack of empathy and self awareness / awareness of others
  • Undercut the ability for people to vote and other efforts to undercut democratic institutions (which the Republicans have done the former for some time, Trump doubled down with the lies about election and voting fraud with "millions" of "illegal votes" and Trump has continued to work to erode our underlying faith in democracy itself)
  • Aligning with and speaking in support of / looking to curry the favor of and align with other known fascists/dictators/totalitarians (Kim, Putin, Duerte) while doing the exact opposite for democracies around the globe
  • Repeated use of false equivalencies
  • Demands that political opponents be "locked up"
  • Seeking to further consolidate executive power, and acting as if one is (and working to create a system where one actually is) above the law
  • Looking to bully and debase others, especially political opponents, as a means by which to prop oneself up
  • Coordinated efforts to influence and taint the judicial process, while simultaneously seeking to undercut any public confidence in gov't watchdogs, especially those tasked with oversight of the executive branch
  • Instituting over the top, draconian and cruel measures to achieve policy goals (like separating children from their families in a manner that we have never done before)
  • Instituting policies that make the leader and "our nation" look strong, even if they result in the exact opposite (i.e. trade, the threats and bombastic rhetoric trump uses)
  • Demanding others show patriotism, but moreso that they show it according to the way the fascist leadership demands, while castigating those who may even peacefully, protest
  • Demanding that showing patriotism is a personal issue, and must show allegiance to country, to symbol (flag) and to person (the authoritarian)
  • Quotes like “(Kim is) the head of a country, and I mean he’s the strong head. Don’t let anyone think anything different. He speaks, and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.”
  • Don't listen to me, listen to BUSH'S top advisors, like: Eliot A. Cohen, a Trump critic and senior State Department official under President George W. Bush, said Trump “has classic traits of the authoritarian leader. The one that’s always struck me most is this visceral instinct of people’s weaknesses and a corresponding desire to be seen as strong and respected and admired.


And that took but a few minutes to compile. Hope that's enough "meat" and "examples" to start with to demonstrate that this not only is a thread which should continue, but a discussion that must be had. Hard as it may be.

@Joe Bryant
Click to expand...
/thread

 
Da Guru said:
I want to vote a Dem..but they need to back the working men and women. Right now all the Dems care about is the special interest groups.  They should be cared about but that is not going to win an election. Dems have lost their base.
Click to expand...
What do you think the Dems aren't doing that they should to back the working men and women?

 
Question for those who find it laughable to call Trump a fascist or fascist-like:

What would have to happen in order to call any politician a fascist?

 
David Dodds said:
Fascist?  LOL

He said he was going to blow up the system. He ran on the very things that everyone is now objecting to.

Here is a less than 6-minute video that summarizes his stances:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2qIXXafxCQ&feature=youtu.be

He was elected by the people.    

Instead of whining 24/7, let's see if the Democrats can:

1. Address their own corruption within their party

2. Execute a get out and vote strategy to get a government more in line with all the things they are objecting to nonstop.
Click to expand...
Hitler and Mussolini were both initially elected as well and like Trump were elected without a majority. Both after taking office brought about changes to the electoral system that eliminated competition

 
Moonlight said:
Hitler and Mussolini were both initially elected as well and like Trump were elected without a majority. Both after taking office brought about changes to the electoral system that eliminated competition
Click to expand...
Hitler and Mussolini didn’t come to power by winning elections.

Hitler got his power when the President appointed him as Chancellor.

Mussolini was elected to the Italian Chamber of Deputies (sort of the Italian version of the U.S. House of Representatives) in 1921, but that didn’t give him much power. Italy was a monarchy, and Mussolini got his power when the King appointed him as Prime Minister in 1922.

 
timschochet said:
Trump is an American populist, nativist, nationalist, America First, mostly but not completely of the right wing variety, with authoritarian and dishonest tendencies. He is also a blue collar, anti-intellectual bigot. He is also an extreme narcissist and desires to be loved even more than he desires power, and this last characteristic is probably more important than all the rest. 
Click to expand...
this is all very true and well put

I think what separates Trump is he strongly desires to put his name in the history books, he wants to be remembered. I'm not sure its power that drives him so much as being famous for what he has done.

 
Stealthycat said:
this is all very true and well put

I think what separates Trump is he strongly desires to put his name in the history books, he wants to be remembered. I'm not sure its power that drives him so much as being famous for what he has done.
Click to expand...
I’m surprised but glad you agree that Trump is a bigot. 

 
I think bigotry is commonplace in the world above common American's. Do you think Maxine Waters is a bigot after her calling for civil unrest of sorts? Fits the definition ... as does it fit quite a few elected officials over the years I'm afraid.

Bigotry isn't illegal .... and I don't think Trump see's skin color or gender as the measuring stick though, he's not a racist IMO but a bigot in that he's right and everyone else is wrong and he needs to get what he thinks needs done done regardless? Yes, he's a bigot in that and others opinions won't get in his way. I can totally see that

big·ot

ˈbiɡət/

noun

noun: bigot; plural noun: bigots

a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.

 
Stealthycat said:
I think bigotry is commonplace in the world above common American's. Do you think Maxine Waters is a bigot after her calling for civil unrest of sorts? Fits the definition ... as does it fit quite a few elected officials over the years I'm afraid.

Bigotry isn't illegal .... and I don't think Trump see's skin color or gender as the measuring stick though, he's not a racist IMO but a bigot in that he's right and everyone else is wrong and he needs to get what he thinks needs done done regardless? Yes, he's a bigot in that and others opinions won't get in his way. I can totally see that

big·ot

ˈbiɡət/

noun

noun: bigot; plural noun: bigots

a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.
Click to expand...
Those who are bigoted against racial minorities or LGBTQ people are not bigots because the members of these minority groups hold different opinions than they do.

 
I have no idea if Maxine Waters is a bigot. I do know she is a very awful person. But she is not President. 

Prwsident Trump is a bigot. He is also a racist. He is not intolerant of other peoples’ opinions; he is intolerant of their skin color, their nationality, and in the case of Islam, their religion. He’s the worst sort of bigot, and anybody who supports him deserves to feel shame and embarrassment over this. 

 
rude classless thugs said:
Those who are bigoted against racial minorities or LGBTQ people are not bigots because the members of these minority groups hold different opinions than they do.
Click to expand...
that's true ... blacks are bigoted towards whites, LGBT is bigoted towards straight people too .... it goes all ways

I don't think Trump is bigoted towards people on skin color or gender or sexual choices ..... I know that's not a popular opinion here

 
Stealthycat said:
that's true ... blacks are bigoted towards whites, LGBT is bigoted towards straight people too .... it goes all ways

I don't think Trump is bigoted towards people on skin color or gender or sexual choices ..... I know that's not a popular opinion here
Click to expand...
None that I know or have met. They may be bigoted against people that openly discriminate against them, but not straight people in general.

 
Stealthycat said:
that's true ... blacks are bigoted towards whites, LGBT is bigoted towards straight people too .... it goes all ways

I don't think Trump is bigoted towards people on skin color or gender or sexual choices ..... I know that's not a popular opinion here
Click to expand...
I know quite a few blacks that are bigoted towards whites.  I don’t know any LGBT bigoted towards straight people in general.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Hitler and Mussolini didn’t come to power by winning elections.

Hitler got his power when the President appointed him as Chancellor.

Mussolini was elected to the Italian Chamber of Deputies (sort of the Italian version of the U.S. House of Representatives) in 1921, but that didn’t give him much power. Italy was a monarchy, and Mussolini got his power when the King appointed him as Prime Minister in 1922.
Click to expand...
You are right. I apologize for the error.

 
mcintyre1 said:
My personal favorite among the rant style comedy political commentators actually focused on this question in his latest video: Trump Isn't Hitler

I'm guessing this won't convince anyone that isn't already on board with the idea that Trump/Trumpism is a form of fascism, but I thought this video explained a lot of my own personal thoughts that I have had trouble getting across at times.
Click to expand...
Another video in this series was just put out: Trumpism Is Just A Synonym For Fascism. Definitely worth a watch if you're interested in the viewpoint of a left leaning person on this subject.

 
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