Can you explain why you don't have faith? (1 Viewer)

[JuniorNB]

I was a believer as a child, agnostic as a young adult, and as close to atheist as I can possibly be at this point. There's just way too many things that go on that "God" would never let happen to good people.

But, I have no problem with believers. In fact, if an atheist is ragging on a believer and being a real; tool about it, I generally leave the conversation liking the believer more than the atheist. I think that's revolting behavior.

Also, although I'm an atheist, I will always bow my head to pray at a wedding or funeral. I'll even recite the Lords Prayer if the group I'm in is saying it. I also say "bless you' when someone sneezes, and offer a thank you when someone says 'God bless you' to me. These gestures cost me nothing at all and I have no problem respecting other peoples' beliefs.

Yeah, a lot of atheists go out of their way to conform, be unobtrusive as possible, and generally try to prove that they aren't secretly Satan worshippers. After all, aren't atheists-according to some polls at least-the most distrusted minority in the country (I think I recall reading that someplace).

I personally don't do most of those things. Why would one bow their head in acknowledgement of something they don't believe in? I would never recite the Lord's Prayer as a non believer-why?

I do say"bless you" when someone sneezes-I don't want ANYONE with the devil in 'em.

I also personally have a hard time "respecting" something I view as nonsense. I "get along" because most religious people are good people and I don't want to offend them. I may respect them as people but I certainly don't respect the belief.

I have no problem, whatsoever, respecting their beliefs. Because I believe that they turn to religion for positive reasons.

I believe Santa Clause is nonsense, but if I'm amongst 5 year-olds looking up at the sky to try to see Santa's sleigh, I'm looking right with them. Again, what is that costing me?

 

[NCCommish]

I was a believer as a child, agnostic as a young adult, and as close to atheist as I can possibly be at this point. There's just way too many things that go on that "God" would never let happen to good people.

But, I have no problem with believers. In fact, if an atheist is ragging on a believer and being a real; tool about it, I generally leave the conversation liking the believer more than the atheist. I think that's revolting behavior.

Also, although I'm an atheist, I will always bow my head to pray at a wedding or funeral. I'll even recite the Lords Prayer if the group I'm in is saying it. I also say "bless you' when someone sneezes, and offer a thank you when someone says 'God bless you' to me. These gestures cost me nothing at all and I have no problem respecting other peoples' beliefs.

Yeah, a lot of atheists go out of their way to conform, be unobtrusive as possible, and generally try to prove that they aren't secretly Satan worshippers. After all, aren't atheists-according to some polls at least-the most distrusted minority in the country (I think I recall reading that someplace).

I personally don't do most of those things. Why would one bow their head in acknowledgement of something they don't believe in? I would never recite the Lord's Prayer as a non believer-why?

I do say"bless you" when someone sneezes-I don't want ANYONE with the devil in 'em.

I also personally have a hard time "respecting" something I view as nonsense. I "get along" because most religious people are good people and I don't want to offend them. I may respect them as people but I certainly don't respect the belief.

I have no problem, whatsoever, respecting their beliefs. Because I believe that they turn to religion for positive reasons.

I believe Santa Clause is nonsense, but if I'm amongst 5 year-olds looking up at the sky to try to see Santa's sleigh, I'm looking right with them. Again, what is that costing me?

Pretty much with Junior here. Now I won't recite the Lords Prayer. I don't believe it and I feel it's disrespectful for me to recite it. I will bow my head when there is a prayer but I won't be Amening. And God Bless You is so widely used it's lost all it's meaning anyway.

 

[mr roboto]

I was a believer as a child, agnostic as a young adult, and as close to atheist as I can possibly be at this point. There's just way too many things that go on that "God" would never let happen to good people.

But, I have no problem with believers. In fact, if an atheist is ragging on a believer and being a real; tool about it, I generally leave the conversation liking the believer more than the atheist. I think that's revolting behavior.

Also, although I'm an atheist, I will always bow my head to pray at a wedding or funeral. I'll even recite the Lords Prayer if the group I'm in is saying it. I also say "bless you' when someone sneezes, and offer a thank you when someone says 'God bless you' to me. These gestures cost me nothing at all and I have no problem respecting other peoples' beliefs.

Yeah, a lot of atheists go out of their way to conform, be unobtrusive as possible, and generally try to prove that they aren't secretly Satan worshippers. After all, aren't atheists-according to some polls at least-the most distrusted minority in the country (I think I recall reading that someplace).I personally don't do most of those things. Why would one bow their head in acknowledgement of something they don't believe in? I would never recite the Lord's Prayer as a non believer-why?

I do say"bless you" when someone sneezes-I don't want ANYONE with the devil in 'em.

I also personally have a hard time "respecting" something I view as nonsense. I "get along" because most religious people are good people and I don't want to offend them. I may respect them as people but I certainly don't respect the belief.

I have no problem, whatsoever, respecting their beliefs. Because I believe that they turn to religion for positive reasons. I believe Santa Clause is nonsense, but if I'm amongst 5 year-olds looking up at the sky to try to see Santa's sleigh, I'm looking right with them. Again, what is that costing me?

Pretty much with Junior here. Now I won't recite the Lords Prayer. I don't believe it and I feel it's disrespectful for me to recite it. I will bow my head when there is a prayer but I won't be Amening. And God Bless You is so widely used it's lost all it's meaning anyway.

I actually respect you for refraining from reciting the prayer and saying Amen. Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

I was a believer as a child, agnostic as a young adult, and as close to atheist as I can possibly be at this point. There's just way too many things that go on that "God" would never let happen to good people.

But, I have no problem with believers. In fact, if an atheist is ragging on a believer and being a real; tool about it, I generally leave the conversation liking the believer more than the atheist. I think that's revolting behavior.

Also, although I'm an atheist, I will always bow my head to pray at a wedding or funeral. I'll even recite the Lords Prayer if the group I'm in is saying it. I also say "bless you' when someone sneezes, and offer a thank you when someone says 'God bless you' to me. These gestures cost me nothing at all and I have no problem respecting other peoples' beliefs.

Yeah, a lot of atheists go out of their way to conform, be unobtrusive as possible, and generally try to prove that they aren't secretly Satan worshippers. After all, aren't atheists-according to some polls at least-the most distrusted minority in the country (I think I recall reading that someplace).

I personally don't do most of those things. Why would one bow their head in acknowledgement of something they don't believe in? I would never recite the Lord's Prayer as a non believer-why?

I do say"bless you" when someone sneezes-I don't want ANYONE with the devil in 'em.

I also personally have a hard time "respecting" something I view as nonsense. I "get along" because most religious people are good people and I don't want to offend them. I may respect them as people but I certainly don't respect the belief.

I have no problem, whatsoever, respecting their beliefs. Because I believe that they turn to religion for positive reasons. I believe Santa Clause is nonsense, but if I'm amongst 5 year-olds looking up at the sky to try to see Santa's sleigh, I'm looking right with them. Again, what is that costing me?

Pretty much with Junior here. Now I won't recite the Lords Prayer. I don't believe it and I feel it's disrespectful for me to recite it. I will bow my head when there is a prayer but I won't be Amening. And God Bless You is so widely used it's lost all it's meaning anyway.

The "Bless you" thing was a joke. It's obviously not a religious expression any more regardless of it's derivation.

 

[cstu]

I was a believer as a child, agnostic as a young adult, and as close to atheist as I can possibly be at this point. There's just way too many things that go on that "God" would never let happen to good people.

But, I have no problem with believers. In fact, if an atheist is ragging on a believer and being a real; tool about it, I generally leave the conversation liking the believer more than the atheist. I think that's revolting behavior.

Also, although I'm an atheist, I will always bow my head to pray at a wedding or funeral. I'll even recite the Lords Prayer if the group I'm in is saying it. I also say "bless you' when someone sneezes, and offer a thank you when someone says 'God bless you' to me. These gestures cost me nothing at all and I have no problem respecting other peoples' beliefs.

Yeah, a lot of atheists go out of their way to conform, be unobtrusive as possible, and generally try to prove that they aren't secretly Satan worshippers. After all, aren't atheists-according to some polls at least-the most distrusted minority in the country (I think I recall reading that someplace).

I personally don't do most of those things. Why would one bow their head in acknowledgement of something they don't believe in? I would never recite the Lord's Prayer as a non believer-why?

I do say"bless you" when someone sneezes-I don't want ANYONE with the devil in 'em.

I also personally have a hard time "respecting" something I view as nonsense. I "get along" because most religious people are good people and I don't want to offend them. I may respect them as people but I certainly don't respect the belief.

I don't do the 'bless you' thing unless it's out of habit, but the better question is why you wouldn't have enough respect for people to follow along with them? It's just words and it means something to people so do it just so you're not a ####.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I was a believer as a child, agnostic as a young adult, and as close to atheist as I can possibly be at this point. There's just way too many things that go on that "God" would never let happen to good people.

But, I have no problem with believers. In fact, if an atheist is ragging on a believer and being a real; tool about it, I generally leave the conversation liking the believer more than the atheist. I think that's revolting behavior.

Also, although I'm an atheist, I will always bow my head to pray at a wedding or funeral. I'll even recite the Lords Prayer if the group I'm in is saying it. I also say "bless you' when someone sneezes, and offer a thank you when someone says 'God bless you' to me. These gestures cost me nothing at all and I have no problem respecting other peoples' beliefs.

Yeah, a lot of atheists go out of their way to conform, be unobtrusive as possible, and generally try to prove that they aren't secretly Satan worshippers. After all, aren't atheists-according to some polls at least-the most distrusted minority in the country (I think I recall reading that someplace).

I personally don't do most of those things. Why would one bow their head in acknowledgement of something they don't believe in? I would never recite the Lord's Prayer as a non believer-why?

I do say"bless you" when someone sneezes-I don't want ANYONE with the devil in 'em.

I also personally have a hard time "respecting" something I view as nonsense. I "get along" because most religious people are good people and I don't want to offend them. I may respect them as people but I certainly don't respect the belief.

I don't do the 'bless you' thing unless it's out of habit, but the better question is why you wouldn't have enough respect for people to follow along with them? It's just words and it means something to people so do it just so you're not a ####.

Seriously? I'd say that the #### move is to expect someone to recite something he or she doesn't believe. "Well, everybody else is really feeling this Heil Hitler thing, so it would be rude not to play along."

 

[matuski]

I was a believer as a child, agnostic as a young adult, and as close to atheist as I can possibly be at this point. There's just way too many things that go on that "God" would never let happen to good people.

But, I have no problem with believers. In fact, if an atheist is ragging on a believer and being a real; tool about it, I generally leave the conversation liking the believer more than the atheist. I think that's revolting behavior.

Also, although I'm an atheist, I will always bow my head to pray at a wedding or funeral. I'll even recite the Lords Prayer if the group I'm in is saying it. I also say "bless you' when someone sneezes, and offer a thank you when someone says 'God bless you' to me. These gestures cost me nothing at all and I have no problem respecting other peoples' beliefs.

Yeah, a lot of atheists go out of their way to conform, be unobtrusive as possible, and generally try to prove that they aren't secretly Satan worshippers. After all, aren't atheists-according to some polls at least-the most distrusted minority in the country (I think I recall reading that someplace).

I personally don't do most of those things. Why would one bow their head in acknowledgement of something they don't believe in? I would never recite the Lord's Prayer as a non believer-why?

I do say"bless you" when someone sneezes-I don't want ANYONE with the devil in 'em.

I also personally have a hard time "respecting" something I view as nonsense. I "get along" because most religious people are good people and I don't want to offend them. I may respect them as people but I certainly don't respect the belief.

I have no problem, whatsoever, respecting their beliefs. Because I believe that they turn to religion for positive reasons.

I believe Santa Clause is nonsense, but if I'm amongst 5 year-olds looking up at the sky to try to see Santa's sleigh, I'm looking right with them. Again, what is that costing me?

Pretty much with Junior here. Now I won't recite the Lords Prayer. I don't believe it and I feel it's disrespectful for me to recite it. I will bow my head when there is a prayer but I won't be Amening. And God Bless You is so widely used it's lost all it's meaning anyway.

I would imagine we all do what is right for the occasion. Only rarely does it annoy me to accommodate religion.

I actually get a kick out of bowing my head or saying bless you to some religious friends and family.

 

[KCitons]

For me I became agnostic for a couple reasons. One is 12 years of Catholic school and blindly following the teachings left me with only questions that they couldnt answer. The level of disdain and disrespect some supposedly pius people had as well turned me off.

I however do believe in the idea of a god. It doesn't mean that this being is benevolent or cruel based on the circumstances. I see him as a scientist on a much more grand scale. We are all in a Petri dish set off by the big bang. He's just recording the results and finding out what happens. He doesn't care what we do or how we do it. Theres no payoff with eternal salvation waiting. Its just life. We're here in this universe for a little bit. Make our own little impact and move on.

This got lost in the train wreck. It's an interesting perspective.

As we learn more and more about our universe, we realize we don't know that much. There could be hundreds of other "experiments" being carried out. Gods, trying to find the one that works the best.

Somehow, I think our's has failed.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

I was a believer as a child, agnostic as a young adult, and as close to atheist as I can possibly be at this point. There's just way too many things that go on that "God" would never let happen to good people.

But, I have no problem with believers. In fact, if an atheist is ragging on a believer and being a real; tool about it, I generally leave the conversation liking the believer more than the atheist. I think that's revolting behavior.

Also, although I'm an atheist, I will always bow my head to pray at a wedding or funeral. I'll even recite the Lords Prayer if the group I'm in is saying it. I also say "bless you' when someone sneezes, and offer a thank you when someone says 'God bless you' to me. These gestures cost me nothing at all and I have no problem respecting other peoples' beliefs.

Yeah, a lot of atheists go out of their way to conform, be unobtrusive as possible, and generally try to prove that they aren't secretly Satan worshippers. After all, aren't atheists-according to some polls at least-the most distrusted minority in the country (I think I recall reading that someplace).I personally don't do most of those things. Why would one bow their head in acknowledgement of something they don't believe in? I would never recite the Lord's Prayer as a non believer-why?

I do say"bless you" when someone sneezes-I don't want ANYONE with the devil in 'em.

I also personally have a hard time "respecting" something I view as nonsense. I "get along" because most religious people are good people and I don't want to offend them. I may respect them as people but I certainly don't respect the belief.

I don't do the 'bless you' thing unless it's out of habit, but the better question is why you wouldn't have enough respect for people to follow along with them? It's just words and it means something to people so do it just so you're not a ####.

This makes no sense. So much wrong here. We show "respect" to people by following along? Surely you can follow that to it's logical conclusion. And the clauses of your last sentence contradict each other. If language "means something to people" then it would appear it's not "just words".

Having said that, non believers have been "following along" for ages. Not out of respect, not to avoid being a "****", but to avoid being ostracized by the group, something religion has quite the history of doing to various groups of people.

 

[matuski]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

 

[KCitons]

Somehow, I think our's has failed.

 

[Henry Ford]

I was a believer as a child, agnostic as a young adult, and as close to atheist as I can possibly be at this point. There's just way too many things that go on that "God" would never let happen to good people.

But, I have no problem with believers. In fact, if an atheist is ragging on a believer and being a real; tool about it, I generally leave the conversation liking the believer more than the atheist. I think that's revolting behavior.

Also, although I'm an atheist, I will always bow my head to pray at a wedding or funeral. I'll even recite the Lords Prayer if the group I'm in is saying it. I also say "bless you' when someone sneezes, and offer a thank you when someone says 'God bless you' to me. These gestures cost me nothing at all and I have no problem respecting other peoples' beliefs.

Yeah, a lot of atheists go out of their way to conform, be unobtrusive as possible, and generally try to prove that they aren't secretly Satan worshippers. After all, aren't atheists-according to some polls at least-the most distrusted minority in the country (I think I recall reading that someplace).

I personally don't do most of those things. Why would one bow their head in acknowledgement of something they don't believe in? I would never recite the Lord's Prayer as a non believer-why?

I do say"bless you" when someone sneezes-I don't want ANYONE with the devil in 'em.

I also personally have a hard time "respecting" something I view as nonsense. I "get along" because most religious people are good people and I don't want to offend them. I may respect them as people but I certainly don't respect the belief.

I don't do the 'bless you' thing unless it's out of habit, but the better question is why you wouldn't have enough respect for people to follow along with them? It's just words and it means something to people so do it just so you're not a ####.

The words "I solemnly swear my fealty to Henry Ford and will defend him from all enemies with my life" mean something to me. I wish you'd just swear that, even if you don't really mean it. Don't be a ####.

 

[mr roboto]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

 

[joffer]

we need something better to say after a sneeze.

an no, not "you are soooo good lookin'"

 

[Henry Ford]

we need something better to say after a sneeze.

an no, not "you are soooo good lookin'"

"Take off your pants."

 

[joffer]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

I heard Santa lives underground

 

[joffer]

we need something better to say after a sneeze.

an no, not "you are soooo good lookin'"

"Take off your pants."

"pull my finger"

 

[Henry Ford]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

I heard Santa lives underground

And why can't Santa be invisible? The guy has a sleigh that carries presents to six billion people in a night dragged around by flying reindeer, but he can't be invisible?

 

[Henry Ford]

we need something better to say after a sneeze.

an no, not "you are soooo good lookin'"

"Take off your pants."

"pull my finger"

I had this exact same exchange in a chat room once.

 

[NCCommish]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

I heard Santa lives underground

And why can't Santa be invisible? The guy has a sleigh that carries presents to six billion people in a night dragged around by flying reindeer, but he can't be invisible?

You can't disprove Santa for the same reason you can't disprove God.

 

[mr roboto]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

I heard Santa lives underground

And why can't Santa be invisible? The guy has a sleigh that carries presents to six billion people in a night dragged around by flying reindeer, but he can't be invisible?

Sounds like a Santa-of-the-Gaps argument to me.

 

[matuski]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

You need to go to the North Pole to determine Santa isn't real? Again, the disconnect would seem to be on your side.

Both lack any evidence for being real. Neither has a bit of evidence or reason favoring the likely-hood of one over the other (or anything else... from unicorns to zeuss).

When we say that we aren't trying to hurt your feelings, we are calling it how we see it.

 

[Henry Ford]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

I heard Santa lives underground

And why can't Santa be invisible? The guy has a sleigh that carries presents to six billion people in a night dragged around by flying reindeer, but he can't be invisible?

You can't disprove Santa for the same reason you can't disprove God.

This reads like you think I disagree with you.

 

[NCCommish]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

I heard Santa lives underground

And why can't Santa be invisible? The guy has a sleigh that carries presents to six billion people in a night dragged around by flying reindeer, but he can't be invisible?

You can't disprove Santa for the same reason you can't disprove God.

This reads like you think I disagree with you.

Just adding on.

 

[mr roboto]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

You need to go to the North Pole to determine Santa isn't real? Again, the disconnect would seem to be on your side.

Both lack any evidence for being real. Neither has a bit of evidence or reason favoring the likely-hood of one over the other (or anything else... from unicorns to zeuss).

When we say that we aren't trying to hurt your feelings, we are calling it how we see it.

I've bolded your statement that I was specifically referencing. You can disprove the existence of Santa (as the narrative is currently constructed - barring Henry Ford's invisible Santa). I've provided 'tests/standards' you could use for that. Those same 'tests/standards' can't be used to disprove God. You can't actually disprove the Christian or Jewish or Muslim God. That isn't saying you can prove them either. I don't know what else to say on this topic.

 

[NCCommish]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

You need to go to the North Pole to determine Santa isn't real? Again, the disconnect would seem to be on your side.

Both lack any evidence for being real. Neither has a bit of evidence or reason favoring the likely-hood of one over the other (or anything else... from unicorns to zeuss).

When we say that we aren't trying to hurt your feelings, we are calling it how we see it.

I've bolded your statement that I was specifically referencing. You can disprove the existence of Santa (as the narrative is currently constructed - barring Henry Ford's invisible Santa). I've provided 'tests/standards' you could use for that. Those same 'tests/standards' can't be used to disprove God. You can't actually disprove the Christian or Jewish or Muslim God. That isn't saying you can prove them either. I don't know what else to say on this topic.

How about that you are wrong? Santa can not be disproven because "magic". The same reason God can't be disproved. Once you engage in magical thinking that's where you end up.

 

[matuski]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

You need to go to the North Pole to determine Santa isn't real? Again, the disconnect would seem to be on your side.

Both lack any evidence for being real. Neither has a bit of evidence or reason favoring the likely-hood of one over the other (or anything else... from unicorns to zeuss).

When we say that we aren't trying to hurt your feelings, we are calling it how we see it.

I've bolded your statement that I was specifically referencing. You can disprove the existence of Santa (as the narrative is currently constructed - barring Henry Ford's invisible Santa). I've provided 'tests/standards' you could use for that. Those same 'tests/standards' can't be used to disprove God. You can't actually disprove the Christian or Jewish or Muslim God. That isn't saying you can prove them either. I don't know what else to say on this topic.

The bolded: The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being.

Going to the North Pole is not needed to know there is no evidence for him there. If Santa is invisible and able to travel around the world in a few hours, how do you know he isn't hiding from you there? All the same mental gymnastics can be applied to santa that religion applies to gods. Santa has the same lack of evidence your god does (or any other).

You seem to be stepping back from your derogatory claims at least.

 

[mr roboto]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

You need to go to the North Pole to determine Santa isn't real? Again, the disconnect would seem to be on your side.

Both lack any evidence for being real. Neither has a bit of evidence or reason favoring the likely-hood of one over the other (or anything else... from unicorns to zeuss).

When we say that we aren't trying to hurt your feelings, we are calling it how we see it.

I've bolded your statement that I was specifically referencing. You can disprove the existence of Santa (as the narrative is currently constructed - barring Henry Ford's invisible Santa). I've provided 'tests/standards' you could use for that. Those same 'tests/standards' can't be used to disprove God. You can't actually disprove the Christian or Jewish or Muslim God. That isn't saying you can prove them either. I don't know what else to say on this topic.

How about that you are wrong? Santa can not be disproven because "magic". The same reason God can't be disproved. Once you engage in magical thinking that's where you end up.

Santa does not exist. Objectively. There is not an actual human being named Santa Clause who lives at the North Pole who flies around to houses delivering presents powered by flying reindeer. You can actually prove this. We can not only show that he doesn't exist, but that his actions are being performed through a different means (parents give 'From: Santa' presents and eat the cookies the kids leave). Same with the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny. Look, I'm not trying some mental gymnastics to make myself feel better. I really don't care if you agree with my belief or not. I know I can't prove God. I have attended Seminary preparing for ministry in the Christian faith while at the same time very near full blown atheism myself. I've wrestled with this for 15 years. I've heard all the arguments on all sides.

It is still patently false to say that there are no standards/tests that can be applied to a belief in Santa Clause that can't also be applied to a belief in God.

Seriously, I'm open to someone actually showing me what I'm missing here.

 

[mr roboto]

Now the deragatory comparison of believing in God to Santa, I'll just let that one slide.

Why would this be derogatory to you?

The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being. Not surprisingly, the results are the same for many of us. Literally hard to distinguish against any line of logic, reason, or evidence.

There is no agenda or ill intent... these are simply facts. You are attributing emotions to it, the "derogatory" part is your own hang-up, not the person making the above observation.

Not really. We can go to the North Pole and see that Santa doesn't live there. We can put cameras on Christmas Eve on rooftops and prove he doesn't slide down chimneys. We can't disprove the existence of God. Nor can anyone prove it.

You need to go to the North Pole to determine Santa isn't real? Again, the disconnect would seem to be on your side.

Both lack any evidence for being real. Neither has a bit of evidence or reason favoring the likely-hood of one over the other (or anything else... from unicorns to zeuss).

When we say that we aren't trying to hurt your feelings, we are calling it how we see it.

I've bolded your statement that I was specifically referencing. You can disprove the existence of Santa (as the narrative is currently constructed - barring Henry Ford's invisible Santa). I've provided 'tests/standards' you could use for that. Those same 'tests/standards' can't be used to disprove God. You can't actually disprove the Christian or Jewish or Muslim God. That isn't saying you can prove them either. I don't know what else to say on this topic.

The bolded: The same tests/standards you use to determine whether santa is real can be applied to any other invisible supernatural being.

Going to the North Pole is not needed to know there is no evidence for him there. If Santa is invisible and able to travel around the world in a few hours, how do you know he isn't hiding from you there? All the same mental gymnastics can be applied to santa that religion applies to gods. Santa has the same lack of evidence your god does (or any other).

You seem to be stepping back from your derogatory claims at least.

Ive given you multiple tests that can be applied to a belief in Santa that can't be applied to a belief in God.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Santa does not exist. Objectively. There is not an actual human being named Santa Clause who lives at the North Pole who flies around to houses delivering presents powered by flying reindeer. You can actually prove this. We can not only show that he doesn't exist, but that his actions are being performed through a different means (parents give 'From: Santa' presents and eat the cookies the kids leave). Same with the Tooth Fairy, Easter Bunny.It is still patently false to say that there are no standards/tests that can be applied to a belief in Santa Clause that can't also be applied to a belief in God.

Seriously, I'm open to someone actually showing me what I'm missing here.

1. Not really.

2. Not really.

 

[mr roboto]

I'm not easily offended, but yes, making belief in Santa equal to belief in God is at minimum intellectually dishonest. And arrogant. Cute little simple religious people, the rest of us know better. Except you don't. None of us do.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I'm not easily offended, but yes, making belief in Santa equal to belief in God is at minimum intellectually dishonest. And arrogant. Cute little simple religious people, the rest of us know better. Except you don't. None of us do.

Why? Is there more "proof" that God exists?

 

[joffer]

I'm not easily offended, but yes, making belief in Santa equal to belief in God is at minimum intellectually dishonest. And arrogant. Cute little simple religious people, the rest of us know better. Except you don't. None of us do.

how about Bigfoot?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I'm not easily offended, but yes, making belief in Santa equal to belief in God is at minimum intellectually dishonest. And arrogant. Cute little simple religious people, the rest of us know better. Except you don't. None of us do.

But Santa is magic. You can't understand why he does and does not do things. Santa influences you to go and by presents for your kids and sign his name. We can't know Santa's will.

^ That is an intellectually dishonest argument. Does it sound familiar?

 

[mr roboto]

I'm not easily offended, but yes, making belief in Santa equal to belief in God is at minimum intellectually dishonest. And arrogant. Cute little simple religious people, the rest of us know better. Except you don't. None of us do.

But Santa is magic. You can't understand why he does and does not do things. Santa influences you to go and by presents for your kids and sign his name. We can't know Santa's will. ^ That is an intellectually dishonest argument. Does it sound familiar?

Is that the Santa story they told you growing up?

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I'm not easily offended, but yes, making belief in Santa equal to belief in God is at minimum intellectually dishonest. And arrogant. Cute little simple religious people, the rest of us know better. Except you don't. None of us do.

But Santa is magic. You can't understand why he does and does not do things. Santa influences you to go and by presents for your kids and sign his name. We can't know Santa's will. ^ That is an intellectually dishonest argument. Does it sound familiar?

Is that the Santa story they told you growing up?

I have faith it is true.

 

[mr roboto]

I'm not easily offended, but yes, making belief in Santa equal to belief in God is at minimum intellectually dishonest. And arrogant. Cute little simple religious people, the rest of us know better. Except you don't. None of us do.

Why? Is there more "proof" that God exists?

The original discussion was a claim that there are no tests one could apply to Santa that couldn't also be applied to God. No one has responded to my examples except to change the story. Is there more "proof" that God exists? No. Evidence, of course. There's no "proof" this website exists.

 

[mr roboto]

I'm not easily offended, but yes, making belief in Santa equal to belief in God is at minimum intellectually dishonest. And arrogant. Cute little simple religious people, the rest of us know better. Except you don't. None of us do.

But Santa is magic. You can't understand why he does and does not do things. Santa influences you to go and by presents for your kids and sign his name. We can't know Santa's will. ^ That is an intellectually dishonest argument. Does it sound familiar?

Is that the Santa story they told you growing up?

I have faith it is true.

Ok. You've just defined a non-physical person that acts on people's hearts. Which is similar to how theists would at least partially define God. So now we've defined Santa as a God to show that the same tests can apply to both?

 

[mr roboto]

This whole thing started because I said I respected NCC for refraining from certain religious expressions because he doesn't believe them and said I thought matuski's Santa comment was derogatory. I'm sorry for going down this trail but now it's turned into the same Internet debate about religion we've all seen/engaged in before. Nothing new and I should have known better. Sorry for derailing the thread.

 

[butcher boy]

I'm surprised no one's made a George Michael joke yet.

 

[timschochet]

I'm glad my younger daughter can't read this thread.

 

[timschochet]

Mr. Roboto, put aside Santa Claus for a moment. It's not really an apt analogy anyhow, since Santa Claus is not worshipped as a divine being.

A better analogy would be Odin. If someone told you they believed in Odin and worshipped him as the ruler of Asgard, would you treat that person with same respect in your own mind that you believe we should afford to Christians? If not, why not?

 

[Henry Ford]

I'm not easily offended, but yes, making belief in Santa equal to belief in God is at minimum intellectually dishonest. And arrogant. Cute little simple religious people, the rest of us know better. Except you don't. None of us do.

I think the primary argument (at least the one I've heard) isn't Santa, it's Leprechauns.

 

[BassNBrew]

Thanks Tim. This is interesting to talk about I think. Thanks for folks being cool about it and having a discussion.

Here's something I'd ask to help me better understand where people are coming from. For folks that don't identify with a particular faith or religion, do you believe there is something beyond our life here? Do you feel that there is a "higher power" or are there "spiritual" things that exist beyond what we see here?

J

I think that's very likely Joe. There's really no reason why there couldn't be multiple universes much like there are multiple aquariums on this planet.

Personally if I'm God and all powerful, I'm either fixing this mess I created or I'm out creating a new universe every day until I get it right.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

I'm not easily offended, but yes, making belief in Santa equal to belief in God is at minimum intellectually dishonest. And arrogant. Cute little simple religious people, the rest of us know better. Except you don't. None of us do.

But Santa is magic. You can't understand why he does and does not do things. Santa influences you to go and by presents for your kids and sign his name. We can't know Santa's will. ^ That is an intellectually dishonest argument. Does it sound familiar?

Is that the Santa story they told you growing up?

I have faith it is true.

Ok. You've just defined a non-physical person that acts on people's hearts. Which is similar to how theists would at least partially define God. So now we've defined Santa as a God to show that the same tests can apply to both?

We've shown how the goalposts can be moved when "testing" magical beings. Frustrating isn't it?

 

[Henry Ford]

I hope you'll understand when I say that, it's not an attempt to insult you. Nor do I think you're a cute little simple religious person.

 

[mr roboto]

Mr. Roboto, put aside Santa Claus for a moment. It's not really an apt analogy anyhow, since Santa Claus is not worshipped as a divine being.

A better analogy would be Odin. If someone told you they believed in Odin and worshipped him as the ruler of Asgard, would you treat that person with same respect in your own mind that you believe we should afford to Christians? If not, why not?

I don't know anything about Odin or any religion associated with it. I would evaluate the belief system as a whole, including its moral teachings, history etc. But purely based on ability to prove/disprove, it's similar. And that doesn't bother me at all. Neither does the whole FSM meme. I think it's cute and doesn't cause me any trouble.

Of course Christianity goes further and ties it's claims to a historic place and time. It's not just a belief in a metaphysical higher power. But even then, no one can prove Jesus died and rose.

 

[mr roboto]

I'm not easily offended, but yes, making belief in Santa equal to belief in God is at minimum intellectually dishonest. And arrogant. Cute little simple religious people, the rest of us know better. Except you don't. None of us do.

But Santa is magic. You can't understand why he does and does not do things. Santa influences you to go and by presents for your kids and sign his name. We can't know Santa's will. ^ That is an intellectually dishonest argument. Does it sound familiar?

Is that the Santa story they told you growing up?

I have faith it is true.

Ok. You've just defined a non-physical person that acts on people's hearts. Which is similar to how theists would at least partially define God. So now we've defined Santa as a God to show that the same tests can apply to both?

We've shown how the goalposts can be moved when "testing" magical beings. Frustrating isn't it?

Yes. I hope I never do that to you Cliff.

 

[mr roboto]

I hope you'll understand when I say that, it's not an attempt to insult you. Nor do I think you're a cute little simple religious person.

Im neither cute nor little, so that works. I'm not really insulted. But moral or intellectual equivalence arguments are pretty lazy.

 

[Henry Ford]

Mr. Roboto, put aside Santa Claus for a moment. It's not really an apt analogy anyhow, since Santa Claus is not worshipped as a divine being.

A better analogy would be Odin. If someone told you they believed in Odin and worshipped him as the ruler of Asgard, would you treat that person with same respect in your own mind that you believe we should afford to Christians? If not, why not?

I don't know anything about Odin or any religion associated with it. I would evaluate the belief system as a whole, including its moral teachings, history etc.But purely based on ability to prove/disprove, it's similar. And that doesn't bother me at all. Neither does the whole FSM meme. I think it's cute and doesn't cause me any trouble.

Of course Christianity goes further and ties it's claims to a historic place and time. It's not just a belief in a metaphysical higher power. But even then, no one can prove Jesus died and rose.

This brings up an interesting issue. Does belief in God make more sense to you for a Protestant versus a Catholic, or vice versa? For a Jew, versus a Christian? Why would a belief in God be more worthy of respect based on what God likes or dislikes, or what His rules are?

If God is all the things God is supposed to be, if He decrees that Mondays are only for eating Easy Cheese, or that you can't eat shellfish or pork, or that it's abhorrent to allow a woman to teach a man anything, or that homosexuality is an abomination, or whatever - why is that more or less deserving of respect?