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Since Flap won't play my game I'll play yours.1) C (Pass Blocking was a 'D+' while Run Blocking was a 'B-')
A point before answering - and I think many are saying this, but others still don't believe it to be the case:Question 1 & Questions 2 & 3 are extremely unrelated or should be). While the players are obviously the same, what they will be asked to do in the offense will be extremely different. To use a baseball analogy, Martz was asking a bunch of power hitters to lay down bunts and move runners over, while he was asking the contact hitters to swing for the fences. Of course they looked bad - they playing against their respective strengths.
O RLY?Michael C. Wright @mikecwright
Watch out Jets and Saints!!!
This guy gets it.
That's a terrible analogy. What were their "strengths"? The only reason one area of their skillsets would be considered a "strength" is because their weaknesses was so bad that even a minor improvement in another area would be considered a strength. If they actually go out and get a LT and another guard, I would agree they could be a B this season, which would be just fine with me.
If they step it up and improve to a B, I'll be the first to step up and admit I was wrong, not like last season when everyone piled on me after 8 games. We saw how that ended. Regardless of injuries, this OL needs to improve big time or it's all over for Cutler. Using injuries as an excuse isn't going to keep Cutler healthy. Every team has injuries. Part of being successful is learning how to overcome those injuries. It's football.
Just a little bit of thoughtregarding 2011:Looking at the games Cutler played (i.e. I'm not including the stats from the backup QBs - who were awful, in every sense of the word):In the first 2 games of the season (after a lockout), the O-line gave up 11 sacks. In the next 7 games (giving them those 2 weeks to gel and figure things out), they gave up 12 sacks, never allowing more than 3 in a game and allowing none in 2 of the final 3 games Cutler played in. In the first two games of the season, Forte rushed for an everage of 58.5 yards per game (those same 2 games where the o-line allowed 11 sacks). In the next 7 (again, the one's with Cutler under center) Forte averaged 115.6 yards per game rushing.I would suggest that an o-line that, in about half a season (the 7 games) allows about 2 sacks per game and opens holes to the tune of 115+ yard rushing for their primary RB every game is doing fairly well. After week 10, Cutler was out, Forte went down 1 week later. To judge the offensive line on how well Kahlil Bell and Marion Barber ran behind them or how well Caleb Hannie did in the Martz offense is downright unfair. How well did the Colts look without their starting QB? How would the Falcons look without Ryan under center or Turner toting the rock? Or the Ravens without Flacco or Rice?Keep in mind that the offensive line rankings/stats are based on almost half a season of backup offensive skill players playing behind them - and a Martz offensive scheme that has historically made most sack numbers skyrocket.
Some good (and fair) points here. Thanks.
The line appeared to be noticeably improved, then Cutler and Forte went down. It's somewhat unfair IMO to judge them on Hanie's play.
There was improvement before Cutler went down, or are you just ignoring it?
At best he was a diamond in the rough when he was signed, everyone knew he was a project that would require development and wouldn't come in and be a game-changer. I don't think that giving a project guy a 3rd season as long as you're seeing progress is a bad thing. I'm guessing playing in an offensive scheme that is o-line friendly along with another year of improving technique will pay dividends for Webb. He has the physical tools to be a middle of the road NFL tackle, which is good enough. No, he'll never be elite, but 7th rounders seldom are.
I agree getting better players at any position is good, but a minor upgrade just to upgrade is not always worth it. Especially if the staff thinks the player still has potential to reach. If the Bears had another dangerous WR and things shored up on the defensive side of the ball then IMO Webb would be the most pressing upgrade required. However with their multiple needs it's not hard for me to imagine Webb isn't the most pressing.
Isn't saying "he's our guy" and then immediately going after his replacement how Chicago got it's franchise quarterback?
No, I realize there is some "cherry picking" in there. I am not trying to make case for them being "a good offensive line" - more making a case for "the jury is still out".
Again, I think that is a fair statement (about the jury being out). I haven't seen much yet from this group that shows they can be even above average, but at the same time, there isn't enough out there to write them off. -I guess for me, I would simply be way more comfortable if the team ponied up and landed at least one big ticket OL in the draft or via FA. Even a B grade player could really have a nice impact on this line, particularly a proven vet, imo (since the line is pretty young). We gave up a lot to land Cutler... and with Forte, Bush and Marshall on offense, we have some good skill players; we simply need to make sure the line is good enough to let those guys do what they are capable of, imo. There have been and still remain some solid options to improve the quality and depth of the line... based on where the team is as a whole, I don't think we can sit back and hope things shake out perfectly with our existing group when there are chances to upgrade/bolster.
Drafting OL in the first(Glenn, Decastro or Martin) would be more than a minor upgrade over the LT or guards that we currently have on our roster If we draft a OL in the first, WR in the 2nd and possibly DE in the 3rd, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Those are 3 huge needs. Hell, those 3 positions in any order in the first 3 rounds would be fine by me. However, I think the difference between a WR in the first and a WR in the 2nd isn't that large, so I would prefer WR be addressed in the 2nd. I would prefer they go after OL in the first. I've made my points over and over again in here, though. I'll leave it at that.
I agree with you about WR - unless Hill is still there. I think if Stephen Hill is available at 19, Lovie and Co. are going to take a long look. But I do agree that addressing those 3 positions in the first 3 rounds is important.
This would have been awesome like three yrs ago.
Yeah, me too.
lol. Yep
What makes you think Martin is the answer at LT? I'd rather have the best player on the board than forcing a pick because of need.
I don't think we have the luxury of picking the BPA like some of the better teams, because we have so many holes. I don't know if Martin is the answer, but who ever does when drafting. He has great potential. I knows he's already better than Webb, who has the athletic ability of Napoleon Dynamite. Martin is miles ahead of Webb, even at this point. That's why he's going in the first and Webb went in the 7th. His potential is very high. With that said, if by some miracle Decastro lasts until 19, it's a no contest.
Emery saying Okoye is going in a different direction. If that's the case, this is a colossal mistake losing a great young DT. I started out liking Emery but that is now changing quickly. Not many chances at getting a young DT like Okoye. Losing more depth at DT. Melton is still unproven and an injury risk.
I was really hoping we would lock him up early. So we make a great move last yr taking him off Houston's hands, he actually shows the flashes that made him a top ten pick, and we let him walk. Wow...unreal.
I'll just go on record as disagreeing with you. Completely.I'm more excited about our OLine this season than I have been in a long time. We've actually undergone a true youth movement after years of Angelo filling the gaps with veterans. Those are the guys that only get worse over time. I see our current line growing for the first time in a long time.I saw this line play good games last season. I saw Webb play good games last season. I'm not denying we had some bad games, but I think some of us are suffering from the 'recency effect' and are only focusing on how the line played at the end of the season. Our line gave up 23 sacks over the first 10 weeks with Cutler behind center. We gave up 26 over the final 6 weeks with Hanie and McCown taking the snaps. That's 3 more sacks allowed in 4 fewer weeks! The line was getting the job done before Cutler and Forte went down. To say otherwise is to admit you didn't watch this team last year.Plus, moving on from Martz cannot be overstated. I remember when we first brought him aboard all I heard from Rams, 9'ers and Lions fans was "he'll get your QB killed". This wasn't a secret about Martz's offense. We knew it would happen. He's made better LT's than Webb look bad. Both L.Staley and J.Backus (both former 1st rd picks) experienced the worst sacks allowed numbers of their careers under Martz's watch. They played better once Martz moved on. So will Webb.We're not addressing the OLine because we already did by letting Martz go and bringing in Campbell. A less risky offensive system and competent backup QB will shave off close to 20 sacks without changing anything else.Go Bears!J
I'm confused by this. Why sign him to a one year contract and then let him walk after he plays well? What's the point of that?Emery saying Okoye is going in a different direction. If that's the case, this is a colossal mistake losing a great young DT. I started out liking Emery but that is now changing quickly. Not many chances at getting a young DT like Okoye. Losing more depth at DT. Melton is still unproven and an injury risk.
First off, the Bears initiated talks with Okoye on a long term deal as early as last December. There were also reports that the Bears had approached him again in February about a long term deal. I don't know that I would consider approaching a player several times with long-term contract offers as "letting him walk". Secondly he did have 5 sacks - but Melton had 7 and even Paea looked decent at times with 2. Third, every inidication is that the Bears are interested in signing Okoye - but he obviously thinks he's worth more than what the Bears are offering.It takes two to tango - or in this case to consumate a deal. Just because Okoye hasn't signed with the Bears doesn't mean it's their fault. If someone else wants to overpay for a a guy who has been in the league 5 years and just showed the first signs of life last season, when the Bears already have 2 decent (and young) 3 technique tackles, I'm fine with that. If he is asking for reasonable compensation for a rotational player, fine - then the Bears should sign him. But since we don't know what he is looking for, why the Bears haven't been able to sign him (yet) or where he will eventually end up, I have a hard time blaming the Bears for this one.I'm confused by this. Why sign him to a one year contract and then let him walk after he plays well? What's the point of that?Emery saying Okoye is going in a different direction. If that's the case, this is a colossal mistake losing a great young DT. I started out liking Emery but that is now changing quickly. Not many chances at getting a young DT like Okoye. Losing more depth at DT. Melton is still unproven and an injury risk.
I really hope you are right, but I think you are drinking the same kool-aid the Bears front office is. Eliminating the Martz system will help, but it doesn't change the fact that the Bears lack talent on the offensive line. If Carimi improves and grows that will make things better. He could be a player to build around, but besides Carimi, and perhaps Garza, none of these other guys should be starting in the NFL. Chris Williams is a bust and we should just accept that and move on. He is an acceptable back up, but that is it. J'Marcus Webb will never be even a low end starting caliber LT. Chris Spencer is a low end back up at best. Maybe Edwin Williams will develop. But I think there are way too many question marks to feel comfortable with this group. My feeling is that if they don't address the line in either the draft of free agency, the season could be over before it starts. The Bears had arguably one of the bottom three offensive lines in the league last year. And other than a healthy Carimi you are going in to this season with the same players you had last year and expecting things to be different. I believe that their offensive success had a lot more to do with Forte and Cutler overcoming this shortcoming than it did the offensive line improving. When Forte and Cutler weren't on the field we saw a little more of how bad the line was. I don't believe that this group can develop in to even an average offensive line. The problem is that their entire season may hinge on whether this group can play at an acceptable level IMO. Unfortunately I think we will discover that they can't.'steelcitysledgehammers said:
There is a difference between:1) Market Value2) What a given team thinks a player is worth3) What the Player thinks he's worth1 & 3 are not always the same either. It could be that Okoye thinks he is worth more than the Bears think he is - and just because there is another owner out there who might agree with Okoye, doesn't make the Bears wrong. It also could be that Okoye thinks he is worth more than all other teams do (we wont know any of this until he signs - somewhere)I certainly understand that Okoye will likely make more then the other DTs who are under contract already. That's not the point. The Bears just re-upped Izzy for $2.5 million - it's not like they're ignoring the D-line. There really is no point in arguing about this until we see what Okoye signed for and where.
Just to calm fears a little. The Bears averaged almost 27 PPG until Cutler went down (and were 7-3 during that stretch). They averaged only 14.2 PPG after Cutler/Forte were out. It hink the additional offensive weapons they have added (and will add in the draft) will only expand that 27 PPG (presuming the health of the big guns). I wouldn't be shocked, given the new offensive system and the addition of Marshall, et. al. if the Bears cracked 30 PPG.
I suggest the Bears just run an additional 34 offensive plays per game.
huh. At the very least, they had to re-sign Izzy. They didn't have anyone else. How much is too much for Okoye? 4yrs 15-17 mil is more than a fair offer. If he wants a lot more, I'll agree that we needed to move on.
Keep in mind too - there is also the fact that they are "trying" to resign Forte that may have them balking at what might be a little bigger number from Okoye. Until we see how this all shakes out, I am willing to let the new GM have a bit of the benfit of the doubt.
This is a well thought out post. The fact of the matter is, I would like to have Okoye back. I am sure the Bears would too, at the right price. The simple fact remains that Okoye has not been signed. Flap assumes that had the Bears offered "market value" he would be a Bear. Based on that reasoning, Okoye has not been offered "market value" by anyone, or he would have signed. This begs the question, what is "market value" and who determines it? My understanding is that "market value" is what the majority of a given market are willing to pay for a good or service, in this case it is Amobi Okoye's ability to play football. Okoye, is not waiting for a "market value" offer, he waiting to see who is the highest bidder.
This is merely a depth signing, right?
