Marvin
Footballguy
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Chicago Bears 2012 Offseason Thread (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter benson_will_lead_the_way
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benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Chris Williams
flapgreen
Footballguy
Coach RBM said he made that up.
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
I thought you were leaving
flapgreen
Footballguy
I'd give it a B-. Except for the horrendous pick of yet another safety in the 3rd round instead of OL,not to mention the guy has been injured for the majority of his college career and didn't even play last year, it was a pretty good draft. That was a huge blunder and inexcusable, though. Since we have drafted and missed on a safety during every season Lovie has been here, I put that almost solely on Lovie. He's a fool and will pay for his blatant disregard for the OL during his tenure. I think Emery did everything he could, while still trying to give Lovie the players he wanted. I'm comfortable with him going forward.eta: I really hope the "Godfather of Soul" will bump "Cement Shoes" to the bench soon.'DoubleG said:
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DoubleG
Footballguy
Now this we agree on. While many bemoaned the fact that the Bears didn't draft any o-line help, they did add 2 OL in the UDFA bunch and one (Brown) was fairly highly touted. Obviously some concerns caused him to fall out of the draft - but when you look at the overall picture, I am pleased with what Emery has done to this point to fill some of the holes and shore up the weak spots - especially when you consider the short time span in which he has done it in.Obviously, some of the positive side presumes that some of the risks payoff - at least to an extent. For example, if McLellan ends up looking like M. Anderson did his rookie season and Alshon Jeffrey stays focussed and lives up to his talent instead of down to last year's work ethic (or lack thereof), and Brown becomes a decent addition at T, and Marshall and Bush play well, then Emery hit this offseason out of the park.
Deranged Hermit
Not cool & Pissed
I know I'm coming into the game late here, but does anyone else think they should have gone DeCastro in the 1st? I thought that was a no brainer.
Fixed.If the Bears are honestly relying on UDFs to fill in critical positions to the long term health of their team (keeping Jay Cutler upright), I am a heck of a lot MORE worried than I was. I'm am very willing to be proven wrong, but I think there are justifiable concerns about the following:
- Offensive Line getting no attention (outside of undrafted guys that wouldn't make any other team in football)
- Drafting guys with injury histories (which is one reason the O-line is already shaky), including a 1st round pick with concussion issues
- Drafting a guy in the 1st round that doesn't fit your system, a system that doesn't have any flexibility (if the Patriots wanted him, they wanted him for their 3-4)
- Hanging your hat on UFAs in any way, shape, or form- particularly before they even get to camp much less make the team
All of those concerns could be unjustified, and if they are great players they should play great regardless. My point is that there was a LOT of dice rolling in this draft- and yes, more than usual or necessary. You took guys in the first two rounds that had other players available at their positions that were at least as highly graded by most scouts but that had some kinds of issues that raised question marks. You take a guy that didnt play football last year. You take guys that you will have to put into positions that they havent played and/or dont necessarily play to their skill set. Maybe you have some home runs, but you might also have a draft full of guys that aren't on the team or even in the NFL in 2-3 years. Its happened to the Bears before.
The problem I had with Angelo was that it seemed like he was in love with making risky picks to show everyone how smart he was, often at the expense of just getting a more known commodity that can provide solid depth for you. If Angelo had turned in this draft I would nod my head and say, yep, thats about what I expect from him. Now whether that means the scout team is still running the Angelo play book and Emery hasn't gotten his arms around it yet, or whether Emery is just a risk taker (and maybe a better gambler we hope) I dont know. It just rings some alarm bells with me. I would have liked to see a conservative draft for the Bears this season given all their needs and depth issues, and given a brand spanking new GM with a learning curve. I think you cannot argue we did not get a conservative draft, win, lose, or draw.
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DoubleG
Footballguy
Some thoughts regarding UDFA, Brown from several "draft guru"-types (via Rotoworld again):
Now, clearly there is a reason a "top 5 tackle" (according to Mayock) fell out of the draft completely. But if the reason is short term health concerns or something that wont keep him out the entire season or longer, Brown might have been a steal. No one is counting on Brown - but he may be a lot better than the typical UDFA (as alluded to in the quote by the thoughts of Mayock and Kiper). They also signed Rachal and have Carimi back. If they move Williams back outside (or at least as Webb's backup) OR Brown develops at all, the Bears will not only have a decent O-line, but some decent depth as well - and that's not even counting any other FA OL they may sign in the next few months as teams widdle down their rosters and cut over-priced veteran guys.
IMHO, the Bears have assembled a decent, albiet young and inexperienced (relatively) O-line with some decent potential. Granted, some of that potential is yet unproven (Webb and Brown). I just think it's a bit early in the process (still) to suggest that the Bears O-line is going to be bad.
I understand they can be better and still be bad - but they could also be better and be decent. With Forte/Bush running the ball and Cutler throwing to Marshall, Jeffery, Bennet and the new TE/FB, I like what I am seeing. Keep in mind, that save for injuries to Forte and Cutler, the Bears were easily a playoff team last year. Now they've added O-line depth, added RB depth, added a bonafied WR1 and drafted a WR that some think was 1st round talent (and is also 6' 3"), added another pass rusher opposite Peppers, added several good special teams guys, and drafted a bunch of DBs to compete and strengthen the defense.
Barring injury to Cutler again, it's touch to see how this team could NOT win at least 10 games.
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flapgreen
Footballguy
We shopped at the bargain bin on the OL. I think the only guy getting over 1.5 is the guy out of Seattle, who probably isn't even starting. That tells you all you need to know. Cutting won't matter that much now, anyway. We have plenty of unused cap space.
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Clifford
Footballguy
Don't really get all the hate going on in here. Thought Emery did a great job when you look at draft combined with FA.
Finally addressed the receiver position by bringing in Marshall and drafting Jeffrey. In 2010 Jeffrey looked like one of the best receivers in college football and a lot of folks mentioned him in the same breath with Julio and AJ around the SEC. His QB play took a step back last season and his weight gain was inexcusable, but maybe the fall to the 2nd round provided him with something to think about. If the Bears can get him to commit himself completely to the game, they got the best receiver in this draft.
With Carimi missing the entire season we never got to see what he could do, so I'm not as bummed we did not address o-line. Would have been nice to nab Massie instead of the 3rd round safety (which is bordering on becoming tradition).
I really am not judging the Shae pick. At that point there weren't any DEs without question marks. Kid looks like he's got good measurables and he played for a big-time college program. I'm excited to see what he can do.
We added two corners and hopefully one of them can start opposite Peanut in a year. I would have rather us gotten Janoris Jenkins but that means we would have missed Jeffrey. I can live with that.
Adding Bush solidified the run game and if Forte holds out all year I think we can be alright. I hope he plays but I can understand why he is pissed.
Even if the o-line plays at the same level we got much more dangerous in the passing game, and I expect a lot of people in Chicago are going to be surprised by what Cutler can do with real weapons in the passing game.
Finally addressed the receiver position by bringing in Marshall and drafting Jeffrey. In 2010 Jeffrey looked like one of the best receivers in college football and a lot of folks mentioned him in the same breath with Julio and AJ around the SEC. His QB play took a step back last season and his weight gain was inexcusable, but maybe the fall to the 2nd round provided him with something to think about. If the Bears can get him to commit himself completely to the game, they got the best receiver in this draft.
With Carimi missing the entire season we never got to see what he could do, so I'm not as bummed we did not address o-line. Would have been nice to nab Massie instead of the 3rd round safety (which is bordering on becoming tradition).
I really am not judging the Shae pick. At that point there weren't any DEs without question marks. Kid looks like he's got good measurables and he played for a big-time college program. I'm excited to see what he can do.
We added two corners and hopefully one of them can start opposite Peanut in a year. I would have rather us gotten Janoris Jenkins but that means we would have missed Jeffrey. I can live with that.
Adding Bush solidified the run game and if Forte holds out all year I think we can be alright. I hope he plays but I can understand why he is pissed.
Even if the o-line plays at the same level we got much more dangerous in the passing game, and I expect a lot of people in Chicago are going to be surprised by what Cutler can do with real weapons in the passing game.
When a guy free-falls in the draft against the consensus pundits it usually means there was medical information the public wasn't privy to. When a guy drops completely out of the draft you know something came back bad. I'm absolutely FINE picking the guy up and seeing if he can go, it costs very little. I'm not fine if that is what you consider your depth at the position, because clearly you ARE counting on Brown to work out for you. The the fact that people are already plugging him into the depth chart proves how shaky this thing is.
Somehow the idea that we are relying on one tackle that had knee issues in college and dislocated his knee his rookie year, another tackle that most people consider one of the worst starters in the league, a guard to back him up that both washed out at the position once and has major injury issues going back to college, and an undrafted free agent with injury issues. That is not flexibility, that is not depth, that is gambling. Straight up gambling that somehow these guys work out for you and you dont get your QBs head taken off if things go south on you. Now sure, the Bears can dust off the Terry Shea offensive playbook and run the bubble screen exclusively. That would protect Jay Cutler, but banking on the playbook to keep him safe is just not realistic. There will be 3rd and longs, and there may not be as may 5 and 7 step drops, but there will be some. Cutler may not get sacked 70 times, but it only takes 1 blown block to end the Bears season. Sure that applies to every team, but teams with perennial stud QBs like the Saints, Patriots, and Colts somehow manage to keep their QBs from taking those kinds of hits hardly ever. If the Bears are indeed looking to have that kind of firepower they better come to Jesus and realize you need that kind of raw talent on the O-line instead of ginned up blocking schemes and praying that guys are much better and healthier than all indications are that they are.
Somehow the idea that we are relying on one tackle that had knee issues in college and dislocated his knee his rookie year, another tackle that most people consider one of the worst starters in the league, a guard to back him up that both washed out at the position once and has major injury issues going back to college, and an undrafted free agent with injury issues. That is not flexibility, that is not depth, that is gambling. Straight up gambling that somehow these guys work out for you and you dont get your QBs head taken off if things go south on you. Now sure, the Bears can dust off the Terry Shea offensive playbook and run the bubble screen exclusively. That would protect Jay Cutler, but banking on the playbook to keep him safe is just not realistic. There will be 3rd and longs, and there may not be as may 5 and 7 step drops, but there will be some. Cutler may not get sacked 70 times, but it only takes 1 blown block to end the Bears season. Sure that applies to every team, but teams with perennial stud QBs like the Saints, Patriots, and Colts somehow manage to keep their QBs from taking those kinds of hits hardly ever. If the Bears are indeed looking to have that kind of firepower they better come to Jesus and realize you need that kind of raw talent on the O-line instead of ginned up blocking schemes and praying that guys are much better and healthier than all indications are that they are.
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
I watched video on Emery's comments from the selections. It seems like he is thinking about matchups(in division) and how to create mismatches in Chicago's favor.
19. Shea McClellin, defensive end, Boise State.
-The Pass rusher we needed opposite Peppers. With Rodgers/Stafford/Ponder this is a necessity.
45. Alshon Jeffery, receiver, South Carolina.
-We needed another big target opposite Marshall and Jeffery has high upside. Emery specifically talked about Jeffery having the best hands and a big red zone threat.
Matching up in our division will be tough for other teams.
Packers:
Marshall vs Tramon Williams
Jeffery vs Sam Shields
Bennett vs Woodson
Hester vs Casey Hayward
Lions:
Marshall vs Chris Houston
Jeffery vs Alphonso Smith
Bennett vs Dwight Bentley
Hester vs Aaron Berry
Vikings: Don't matter
I don't see one matchup that isn't in our favor, which is a first. No more stacking the box vs Forte/Bush. Jeffery also will be a better run blocker on the outside(along with Marshall) then we had in the past.
79. Brandon Hardin, defensive back, Oregon State.
-Emery talked about Hardin's size/speed 6'2 220 4.38/4.41 to matchup against athletic TE's(aka Finley/Pettigrew/Rudolph)
111. Evan Rodriguez, tight end, Temple.
-Rodriguez can play a Chris Cooley/Aaron Hernandez type that will focus on one on one matchups versus LB's that aren't as athletic.
I think it's pretty cool that Emery is taking the matchup approach and applying it to our division.
Needs not addressed:
LT-we all have discussed this over and over again. But finding a legit LT is hard, especially outside of the top 10 draft picks.
CB-The Bears brought in a couple of vet Free Agents and drafted a couple of CBs late, but they need replacements/upgrades to Tillman and especially Jennings.
DT-Specifically the 1 technique. Melton and Paea will be good 3 technique DT's because of their athletic ability. However, the 1 technique(normally double teamed) only has Matt Toenia and that worries me.
19. Shea McClellin, defensive end, Boise State.
-The Pass rusher we needed opposite Peppers. With Rodgers/Stafford/Ponder this is a necessity.
45. Alshon Jeffery, receiver, South Carolina.
-We needed another big target opposite Marshall and Jeffery has high upside. Emery specifically talked about Jeffery having the best hands and a big red zone threat.
Matching up in our division will be tough for other teams.
Packers:
Marshall vs Tramon Williams
Jeffery vs Sam Shields
Bennett vs Woodson
Hester vs Casey Hayward
Lions:
Marshall vs Chris Houston
Jeffery vs Alphonso Smith
Bennett vs Dwight Bentley
Hester vs Aaron Berry
Vikings: Don't matter
I don't see one matchup that isn't in our favor, which is a first. No more stacking the box vs Forte/Bush. Jeffery also will be a better run blocker on the outside(along with Marshall) then we had in the past.
79. Brandon Hardin, defensive back, Oregon State.
-Emery talked about Hardin's size/speed 6'2 220 4.38/4.41 to matchup against athletic TE's(aka Finley/Pettigrew/Rudolph)
111. Evan Rodriguez, tight end, Temple.
-Rodriguez can play a Chris Cooley/Aaron Hernandez type that will focus on one on one matchups versus LB's that aren't as athletic.
I think it's pretty cool that Emery is taking the matchup approach and applying it to our division.
Needs not addressed:
LT-we all have discussed this over and over again. But finding a legit LT is hard, especially outside of the top 10 draft picks.
CB-The Bears brought in a couple of vet Free Agents and drafted a couple of CBs late, but they need replacements/upgrades to Tillman and especially Jennings.
DT-Specifically the 1 technique. Melton and Paea will be good 3 technique DT's because of their athletic ability. However, the 1 technique(normally double teamed) only has Matt Toenia and that worries me.
mlball77
Footballguy
One of DeCastro or Reiff seemed a logical choice to many of us. However, CHI mgmt has repeatedly said, "We like our guys," with regard to the o-line, so for whatever reasons they don't seem nearly as down on the group as most fans and/or analysts are. It's a bit of a head-scratcher, but I'm going to give Emery the benefit of the doubt. Overall, I do think it's been a productive offseason. And while I am uncertain about a few of the draft picks we made, I'm hoping Emery has the midas touch and we hit gold on some of the picks that I'm unsure about. Admittedly, I'm very disappointed that we didn't do more to help the o-line, even when opportunities arose in FA/the draft, so I just hope Emery and his team are more capable than Angelo.
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
We can't be perfect at every position. Stud Left Tackles don't grow on trees and is the second hardest position to find in the NFL(behind a Franchise QB).The last two years Cutler has been beat up with Webb and friends...however the Bears went to the NFC Championship game and 7-3 with that line. With better weapons(Marshall/Jeffery) it hopefully will not allow defenses to blitz as much, which will already help out the OL.The Packers LT right now is Marshall Newhouse(who, exactly...very poor starting LT last year as a fill in) and Derrick Sherrod who is coming off of a serious injury. They also replaced Scott Wells(best OL last year) with 37 year old Jeff Saturday(wheels will fall off soon). We aren't the only team with question marks.
swidman
Footballguy
I thought they would have taken DeCastro, too. I was pretty disappointed in the pick of Shea at 19 as I don't think he was worthy of being picked there at that spot. But who knows how this will selection will pan out?
Deranged Hermit
Not cool & Pissed
All I keep hearing from, well, everyone is how he's the best or second best O-lineman in the draft and how he'll be ready to start week one. Just because he's an interior lineman doest mean that not a valuable commodity.
True but nobody is holding out for a stud- how about just a serviceable tackle? Yeah the Bears went to the NFC championship... and then Cutler got hit and got hurt. After he was hit and hurt and missed games earlier in the season. And then last year Cutler got hit and got hurt. Do we see a pattern emerging? If anything the Bears have been lucky nothing career threatening has happened... and in fact that Cutler has been athletic and mobile enough to escape worse. He's been sacked and hit a huge number of times. Personally I would swap Webb for any starting tackle in the division and not think twice. I understand you cant be strong at every position- but this isnt just any position, especially not for this team. If you cant protect Cutler nothing else you do matters very much. Thats my point. This squad has been historically bad at pass protection at times. Theyve gotten used to keeping extra help in for protection to cover up some of that. I deeply worry that the Bears have talked themselves into believing the lack of flat out talent at those positions is not a problem (not to mention health).
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Statcruncher
Footballguy
Are you talking about Cutler breaking his thumb because he tried to make a tackle after his receiver slipped? Which OL in the draft would have prevented that?
flapgreen
Footballguy
I was irrate after passing on DeCastro as most in here saw. I kept getting more and more excited each time the teams ahead of us passed on him. When it finally arrived, I could just hear Roge saying, "With the 19th player in the 2012 NFL draft, the Chicago Bears select...David DeCastro.". Instead I hear "Shea McCellilin". I was so certain. All of my buddies, who aren't Bears fans, busted out laughing. All I could do was stare blankly.
Fair enough, but i think the bigger picture is the less often your QB makes contact with another player the better, and hence the better your O-line the better. If you have a DB that gives up a few big plays, or a tight end that doesnt make much impact, or some other position that is weak you can overcome it by being strong elsewhere. If you have an o-line that is porous you are just praying nothing bad comes of it, because you can't make up for it elsewhere. I like Jason Campbell but i don't want to see him on the field if possible. And if history is a guide we could end up seeing his backup at some point as well.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Now, c'mon - I'd LOVE to see Campbell on the field the last 5 mintues on December 16th, when the Bears are up 14+ or the same situation on December 30th on the road. You know, so Cutler can rest his throwing arm for the playoffs.
But I think we all agree - OL has to be better - and actually good. Everyone agrees with you (and flap) on that point. The issue is whether or not they have/will actually improve, based on the additions made in FA, the draft and guys coming back from injury. We can go back and forth on this point for the next 3 months, as it really is anybody's guess. Heck, if Kiper and Mayock can say that Brown belongs in the "top 5" or second round - and NFL teams don't agree - obviously we are not all going to see eye to eye on some of the issues that surround the Bear's O-line.
steelcitysledgehammers
Footballguy
benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Wow great work. He will be in all of the rookie camps/mini camps/OTAs/Training camp no problem. All a good sign thus far.
boubucarow
Footballguy
Their pick did fall into an area of strength at DE. Obviously they could have picked needed talent at other positions at that spot but it is hard to confidently say they didn't go BPA regardless of position at that point.
mlball77
Footballguy
This is great news.
twistd
Footballguy
The other important thing is they will better be able to monitor his weight. We don't want him holding out and staying home eating.
twistd
Footballguy
My concern is if he will fit. Will he be a third down end and play LB the rest of the time? How will they use him? I think he is a perfect 3-4 OLB. I just hope the Bears can utilize him effectively.
DoubleG
Footballguy
There was talk the past few days on radio about doing somehting similar to what the Gians do on passing downs (i.e. their "Nascar package" or whatever it's called) - that is on 3rd an long, the Bears would just slide Izzy inside and have Shea on the outside thus maximizing the pass rush (or at least the threat of a pass rush - as Shea could actually drop into coverage if that was wanted.)A few other points about some of Shea's perceived negatives.Some say "He's too small and can't handle double teams" - go check his size/weight compared to Osi Umenyiora. I'll save you the time - they're the same (both 6' 3", 255 lbs). In terms of facing double teams - with Peppers on the field? Really? Sure, opponents could double both - but that's not common. "He's not really a DE" - I'm not sure where this comes from, other than the size concern. He played 3 years of DE in college. He also timed out as the 2nd fastest DE. He IS a DE - and has been a very succesful one throughout his colleg career. He also will not be the "full time" DE - that's what Izzy is for. He will be the "rush DE" - with Izzy often slipping inside on passing downs.
SmoovySmoov
The Way of the Samurai
In a similar vein, did it ever come out why Massie slid so far?
flapgreen
Footballguy
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benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Flapgreen does a great job of following through on his statement of disappearing.Eta: What about the garbage disposal that is Jmarcus Webb?
The Tick
Footballguy
Only thing I disagree with here is that I think he will be the "full time" DE. We need to get Izzy off the field a lot more. He was pretty effect two years ago when he was in on a much lower percentage of snaps, last year he just started to disappear. I think they will get back to as they can get this kid onto the field more.
whitem0nkey
Footballguy
I happy that we now put a premium on the WR position. Angelo believed that the QB makes the WR, and neglected this area.
Phil emery fixed this in 1 offseason. Its nice to know that our RB is no longer our best WR. or that the best WR in Chicago is not Jeff Samardzija any more.
Phil emery fixed this in 1 offseason. Its nice to know that our RB is no longer our best WR. or that the best WR in Chicago is not Jeff Samardzija any more.
flapgreen
Footballguy
Glad you got aboard the Flapgreen "hype train", one season too late, though.Flapgreen does a great job of following through on his statement of disappearing.
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benson_will_lead_the_way
Footballguy
Very interesting, I found a video of all the incomplete passes/interceptions thrown Jeffery's way in 2011
From what I saw he can separate and had poor QB play. I counted 1 drop and 1 great play in the endzone by a CB that prevented a TD.
From what I saw he can separate and had poor QB play. I counted 1 drop and 1 great play in the endzone by a CB that prevented a TD.
flapgreen
Footballguy
I love you brother.
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I came across this article discussing the Bears draft and Mike Tice plan for the offensive line.
I realize this does not seem ideal. I guess Tice believes Webb can develop
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/chi-ten-thoughts-on-the-bears-draft-20120430,0,4198647,full.storySo seems like they want to evaluate Webb another year with Gabe Carimi at RT or if needed move Williams back to left tackle if Webb doesn't improve. Carimi may still be LT in the future.In any case just like who the Vikings have at defensive back does not matter, who you guys line up at left tackle does not matter to Jared Allen either. Good luck Bears fans.
I realize this does not seem ideal. I guess Tice believes Webb can develop
Biabreakable
Footballguy
I came across this article discussing the Bears draft and Mike Tice plan for the offensive line.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/chi-ten-thoughts-on-the-bears-draft-20120430,0,4198647,full.storySo seems like they want to evaluate Webb another year with Gabe Carimi at RT or if needed move Williams back to left tackle if Webb doesn't improve. Carimi may still be LT in the future.In any case just like who the Vikings have at defensive back does not matter, who you guys line up at left tackle does not matter to Jared Allen either. Good luck Bears fans.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Actually, the fact that the Vikings haven't beaten the Bears since November...of 2009, seems to indicate it does matter. Good luck with the conintued rebuilding in Minny. But thanks for checking in.In any case just like who the Vikings have at defensive back does not matter, who you guys line up at left tackle does not matter to Jared Allen either. Good luck Bears fans.
Statcruncher
Footballguy
Minnesota vs. Chicago the last 3 years2009 Week 12 - Allen sacked Cutler 2 times / Cutler threw 1 TD2009 Week 16 - Allen sacked Cutler 0 times / Cutler threw 4 TD's2010 Week 10 - Allen sacked Cutler 2 times / Cutler threw 3 TD's2010 Week 15 - Allen sacked Cutler 0 times / Cutler threw 3 TD's2011 Week 06 - Allen sacked Cutler 1 time / Cutler threw 2 TD's2011 Week 17 - Allen sacked the 3rd string QB 3.5 times / Cutler was on IRI was shocked to go back and see that Jared Allen is only averaging a sack a game against Cutler while Cutler is averaging 2.6 TD's per game. No, the Bears did not add a bunch of bodies to their o-line, but I have a feeling the WR's they added will force opposing defenses to respect the passing game. With my homer glasses on it's not hard to envision fewer sacks and more TD's from the Bears offense. We'll see how it all plays out though, player additions and chemistry don't always turn out as expected.'Biabreakable said:In any case just like who the Vikings have at defensive back does not matter, who you guys line up at left tackle does not matter to Jared Allen either. Good luck Bears fans.
flapgreen
Footballguy
They need to move them. They're not worth a damn, anyway. An NFL team will fail like it did last time in LA, though.
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