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Devil's Advocate
LOL
:gunshot:
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Chris "Beanie" Wells & Ryan Williams, RBs, Arizona Cardina (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jason Wood
- Start date
To be fair Wells had a carry two plays earlier and they went 3 Wide and ran it straight with Howlings anticipating a dump off / screen.
Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
He came back in, had a carry for 1 yard recently, just not getting yards.
cstu
Footballguy
Wow.Still holding steady!What a disgraceful situation that backfield is.
DevilintheDetail
Footballguy
Ryan Williams' fumble yesterday probably didn't help his cause much. Wisenhunt wants to win now and with their defense, they can win games against good teams if they don't make mistakes on offense. Wisenhunt likes Beanie Wells. Wells got the lion's share of the carrier in week 2 until he got hurt. I still think he's the starter and probably will have some pretty good weeks. They have played some tough run defenses - no one has run on either the Pats or Seahawks yet.However, the upside is definitely limited for Beanie if Stephens-Howling is going to be getting goal line carries.In the end, I think at this point in the season you have to ask if Beanie is going to be able to be a flex starter for a playoff-level fantasy team. I don't think he will be, even though he will be much more valuable than Ryan Williams.
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packersfan
Footballguy
This is a disaster. It seems to me the Cardinals really want Williams to take over but he's been pathetic so far so they go back to Wells. Beanie hasn't been very good but he's been better than Williams the first two games. The Cardinals play the Eagles next week so I'd anticipate another horrible day of running. I still think Williams has a shot to do something this season because it seems pretty likely Beanie misses a game or two at some point. So I'd give Williams a slight edge at this point. Good news is if you want either one of these guys the asking price should be real cheap, assuming they haven't hit your league's WW. Wells is on the WW in my league and the only reason Williams isn't is because I own him and I'm stubbornly not giving up on him yet.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Very surprised that Ryan Williams is struggling so much but Beanie's not doing anything to cement his position either. Very disappointing RB situation all around. I own both Beanie and Ryan W in one league as my RB4/RB5. I figure there is upside to owning both and hoping either injury or gameplans improve to make one of them valuable. So I'll stubbornly hold them. But it's also costing 2 roster spots and when bye weeks come if this situation doesn't gain clarity, I'll be forced to ditch either/or both.
packersfan
Footballguy
That's where I'm at too although I only own one of them (Williams). I don't want to dump Williams because it's early in the season, the matchups have been tough and I think there's some potential upside there because I do think he's talented. But the longer he goes on continuing to suck the harder it will be to hang onto him.
DevilintheDetail
Footballguy
Why do you think this? There has been basically no evidence that they want Williams to take over. Wisenhunt has repeatedly said that Beanie is the starting running back and has given him the early carries. Williams only came into the game in week 2 after Wells got hurt. And then almost lost the game for them with his fumble.If you didn't own Williams, I think you'd see that he's the clear backup here and the coaching staff seems fine with that.
packersfan
Footballguy
He got the start in Week 1 and yesterday he was the guy on the field at the end when they were trying to run out the clock in the final two minutes. The latter strikes me as rather significant. That's an important part of the game to entrust to a player who's essentially a rookie.For what it's worth, I am a Williams owner but I've clearly stated that Wells has been better thus far. I don't think there's any question about that.
DevilintheDetail
Footballguy
Wisenhunt explicitly said that Williams only started Week 1 because Beanie was injured leading up to the game. He said Beanie is the starting running back. Williams only came on the field yesterday once Wells got hurt (again, that's the reason he was in at the end). They aren't trying to entrust important parts of the game to Williams, but Wells keeps getting injured so they have to. And Williams keeps showing them that he shouldn't be in there.
sporthenry
Footballguy
I have both as well. Took them in back to back picks hoping to hedge bets and I'd get an RB2 out of one of them. Still a bit early and luckily I have Gore/Rice who don't see byes until week 8 so hopefully by then it is figured out.
packersfan
Footballguy
We'll have to agree to disagree about that. I think they clearly are doing that.
100% agreement with this. I think if Williams had shown anything the first two games, Beanie would have a tough time getting on the field a lot. All of the Cardinals' beat writers I've seen talk about this situation insist it will be a "hot hand" approach. If Williams hadn't been so pathetic the first two games I think he might be the starter.
Shutout
Footballguy
This is well thought out and the point you mention about the HC and his support for Wells is something you can't find in a stat box but is important. The last time I dove into this situation, I came away just thinking that the ineptness of the o-line and the team in general was going to leave me to ignore both of these guys for this year. However, after two weeks, i am quickly reminded just how much attrition plays a role in the FF game, especially at RB.So, today, my modified view is "if you can get both, do it". The reasoning is because the price shouldn't be a ton and by the time November and December comes around, you might have soemthing useful. The team may be at a point where they can use one or both of these guys. The team was pretty bad in this department last year and Beanie still was very valuable as a RB2 so , for the price, I'm actually buying right now.
DevilintheDetail
Footballguy
Do you read what the actual coaches say? They clearly keep saying Beanie is the starter and refuse to label this a competition. They are only putting Williams in there due to Wells' injuries. You seem to be blind to that.
packersfan
Footballguy
I'm not blind to anything. As I posted before and you ignored, Cardinals' beat writers have nearly to a man said this will be a "hot hand" approach. The technical starter is irrelevant. If one of them emerges during a game he'll be the featured guy that week. Williams was given every opportunity in Week 1 and failed miserably. This is pure speculation on my part but given Wells' injury status I think if Williams had played well against Seattle we may not have even seen Beanie in that game. But Williams was pathetic and that forced the Cardinals to give Beanie a shot. Unfortunately for them, he stunk too.
I'm not disputing that Wells is the "starter." What I dispute is the idea that his hold on the job is significant. I don't believe it is. The Cardinals in my opinion clearly want Williams to show them something and are giving him every opportunity to do so. To this point, he's failed at nearly every turn and often failed miserably. Beanie hasn't been very good but he's definitely been better. But given how neither one of them are doing much, the situation remains a mess. Neither guy has emerged as a clear feature back.
I'm not disputing that Wells is the "starter." What I dispute is the idea that his hold on the job is significant. I don't believe it is. The Cardinals in my opinion clearly want Williams to show them something and are giving him every opportunity to do so. To this point, he's failed at nearly every turn and often failed miserably. Beanie hasn't been very good but he's definitely been better. But given how neither one of them are doing much, the situation remains a mess. Neither guy has emerged as a clear feature back.
DevilintheDetail
Footballguy
The beat writers may say that, but the coaches have not said it will be a hot hand approach. They keep saying Beanie is the starter and will get the carries. It isn't like Beanie Wells just showed up this season. Beanie played great last year when healthy and Wisenhunt really likes him. The coaches have refused to say it is a competition. Fantasy owners want to believe that, but the coaches don't feed into it. Williams has never played well for this team yet and almost threw away a huge road win yesterday. Why would the coaches want him to "win" the job over the guy who has produced well in the past?FWIW, I don't own either Wells or Williams in any league. But I read what the coaches say and watch what happens on the field. Beanie Wells is the starter and will get most of the carries when healthy. Through two weeks, his hold on the job has gotten stronger due to Williams' fumbling and weak play. Williams has gotten carries because Beanie has had injuries. He is not being put in position by the coaches to win the job from Wells.
packersfan
Footballguy
Like I said, we'll have to agree to disagree. I think the Cardinals clearly want Williams to succeed but to this point he's stunk up the joint. I also agree with the Cardinals' beat writers who all believe this will be a "hot hand" approach and therefore the lead back could change on a weekly basis - assuming either one of them looks good, of course.
DevilintheDetail
Footballguy
Why do you believe beat writers over coaches?
packersfan
Footballguy
Because coaches lie constantly. Beat writers don't always get things right but the best ones have a good feel for the teams they're covering. Besides, Williams was a second-round pick. You don't need to be a football genius to believe the Cardinals want to give him an opportunity to succeed and become a big part of their offense.
packersfan
Footballguy
FYI:
Darren Urban @Cardschatter
Whiz said Ryan Williams was in the game at end, not Beanie, because it was Williams' turn to work.
Darren Urban @Cardschatter
Whiz said Ryan Williams was in the game at end, not Beanie, because it was Williams' turn to work.
There are a few situations in the NFL like this (Mendenhall comes to mind)- coaches dont always jump to the hot hand or maximize the most explosive player like fans expect them to. There is too much more to being a running back involved. Pass blocking and avoiding turnovers are two things that keep coaches up at night. If they have a reliable but unexciting option, a lot of coaches will try to keep that guy on the field as much as possible. Sometimes its better to know a guys weaknesses. The known unknowns are a lot less dangerous than the unknown unknowns, to paraphrase Don Rumsfeld.
packersfan
Footballguy
From RotoWorld.
Despite Ryan Williams' early-season struggles, the Cardinals plan to "continue to split time" in the backfield between Williams and Beanie Wells.
Despite miserable production (1.2 YPC) and lost fumbles in each of his first two NFL games, Williams was given words of encouragement by coach Ken Whisenhunt after Week 2, and even finished out the game playing ahead of Wells. Wells is at 2.8 YPC himself. Continue to avoid starting Cardinals backs in fantasy leagues.
Related: Ryan Williams
Source: azcardinals.com
Despite Ryan Williams' early-season struggles, the Cardinals plan to "continue to split time" in the backfield between Williams and Beanie Wells.
Despite miserable production (1.2 YPC) and lost fumbles in each of his first two NFL games, Williams was given words of encouragement by coach Ken Whisenhunt after Week 2, and even finished out the game playing ahead of Wells. Wells is at 2.8 YPC himself. Continue to avoid starting Cardinals backs in fantasy leagues.
Related: Ryan Williams
Source: azcardinals.com
Fixed.
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packersfan
Footballguy
Not to hijack the thread but I'd keep starting Fitz (and I don't own him in any leagues this year). He'll get his as the season goes along. He always does.'mbuehner said:
v12themonster
Footballguy
Wondering if I should hold Ryan Williams or drop him for Aaron Brown, or Lamar Miller. The o-line is looking horrible and granted Wells looks better but a few of those runs are swing plays that and Wells just gets to the outside and even a few Plays where he gets stuck behind a lineman and manages to get a few yards accidentally. But overall it doesn't matter cause that's how bad the oline has been.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
I am going to try and pick up Beanie Wells on every team I can. I don't believe Whisenhunt 1 second. Williams can't be trusted, and a still dinged Wells is doing better with his carries already. Wells will get this job full time and be a serviceable RB2/3 before all is said and done.
Shutout
Footballguy
Wells was a FIRST round pick. What's your point?Something I think you have to keep in mind is Head coaches make money by winning football games. Reporters and beat writers by reporting news and, unfortunately, sometimes attempting to manufacture news. If the argument is based on what one of these two groups is saying, I'm going with the guy that is A)in the best position to make the decision on who to play and B)is most likely to play the guy that is going to win football games. In both cases, That points toward the HC and teams don't like RBs that have fumbling issues.
I think Beanie is the obvious answer here.
packersfan
Footballguy
My point is this is a timeshare. The fact the Cardinals are still going with a timeshare despite how pathetic Williams has looked is pretty strong evidence in my opinion that Wells has not improved his standing as the technical "starter." This looks to be a "hot hand" situation all the way. The first RB to show something may keep the job all to himself, assuming the other one continues to suck.
Shutout
Footballguy
I don't get that line of thinking. Granted, neither has set the world on fire but if you are saying they will ride the hot hand, that is clearly Beanie. Nothing is colder than fumbling. As far as a timeshare, outside of about 5 teams in the NFL, they are ALL timeshares now. The difference in this case is that Beanie is the more productive of the two right now ans is taking care of the ball better.
packersfan
Footballguy
I don't know what's going to happen in Week 3 or how Williams' fumble will impact the Cardinals' plans. What I do know is that even though Wells was outplaying Williams, the Cardinals refused to alter their timeshare approach. To me, that's very revealing in it tells me they very badly want Williams to be a big part of their offense. That's why they continue giving him opportunity after opportunity despite the fact he's played like garbage. Whether that changes going forward remains to be seen. But given the fact Wells hasn't looked good either, my guess is both RBs will get their opportunities again next week against the Eagles and the timeshare will remain in place as Arizona hopes one of them emerges with the "hot hand" for at least one game, if not longer.
asuterlowe
Footballguy
At this point both rbs are holds. I grabbed Williams late and while I'm not optimistic he will turn things around, I honestly think he's one good game or one beanie injury from being a starting RB. The same could be said for Beanie. With the way people are fighting over bottom tier RB's like Donald Brown and longshot backups like Hillis and Turbin, anyone who emerges from this mess and is guaranteed touches has to have some value.
I doubt you would be able to deal them for anything anyway.
I doubt you would be able to deal them for anything anyway.
ericttspikes
Footballguy
In addition to not doing much, William's knee is still giving him problems. Maybe that goes a long way to explain his poor performance so far, but not an encouraging sign.
packersfan
Footballguy
Saw that too. He admitted he doesn't have complete confidence in his knee. That's not good.
DoubleG
Footballguy
I think the reason for the timeshare is that the Cardinals want to accomplish two things (and I ranked them in order of importance):1) Manage Wells' workload after last season.2) See how bad Williams' knee is. Honestly, I think they suspect that he is not healthy. Oddly, I think Williams is doing himself a disservice by playing if he is hurting too much to even be effective.
packersfan
Footballguy
I think the Cardinals are smart enough to realize that Beanie isn't durable and they need Williams to be a big part of their offense as both a complement to a healthy Wells and as a starter when Wells misses time. Their snap count last week was virtually identical so they clearly want to use both of these guys. I still think if one of them actually were to look good he could be the one who starts seeing the bulk of the playing time. But so far both have stunk. Wells has stunk less but he's still stunk.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Actually, the o-line stinks. I actually think health plays a bigger role than you are allowing for. If Wells was 100%, I think he'd be getting the majority - same is true of Williams. Neither is healthy, so they split.
packersfan
Footballguy
I agree health is a factor. I don't know how the split would be if both were healthy although my guess is it would still be a timeshare and the "hot hand" approach would remain in effect.
flooredyas
Footballguy
While this isn't earthshattering for fantasy implications on the value for Williams, it does bode well for Beanie moving forward. Should his knee indeed be worrysome, I would expect to see Wells getting a more decisive role, at least this week. Playing vs. Philly is not a high end start, but the opportunity is there. A solid game and he becomes the clear play for Arizona.
quietly inserted him into my starting lineup.
quietly inserted him into my starting lineup.
DoubleG
Footballguy
Well, for Williams this is certainly not helping.
It's clear he needs to trust his knee. Until he can do so, his production will continue to be poor. It's been shown that RBs running to "not get hurt" simply are not effective - they think too much instead of react on instinct.
packersfan
Footballguy
The problems with Beanie are he's looked terrible so far too and he's a major durability risk. But I agree he has a real chance to separate himself from Williams now, especially in light of Williams' comments about not trusting his knee. I think Williams' owners in re-draft leagues have to be very concerned about him right now. It's going to be tough to justify hanging onto him if he stinks it up again tomorrow (and yes, I realize the matchups have been very tough against the run so far). It's difficult to envision him suddenly getting more confidence in his knee if his production continues to stink.Due to injuries, I'm forced to start Beanie this week too as my RB3. I'll say a prayer for both of us.
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