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Churches - Stop Trying To Be "Cool" (1 Viewer)

Do you agree with Rachel Held Evans on this?

  • I sometimes go to church. Definitely agree with her

    Votes: 12 11.2%

  • I sometimes go to church. Maybe agree with her

    Votes: 8 7.5%

  • I sometimes go to church. Probably don't agree with her

    Votes: 9 8.4%

  • I sometimes go to church. Definitely don't agree with her

    Votes: 4 3.7%

  • I don't go to church at all. But I'd probably agree with her

    Votes: 14 13.1%

  • I don't go to church at all. And I'm not sure if I agree with her

    Votes: 5 4.7%

  • I don't go to church at all. And I don't think I agree with her

    Votes: 7 6.5%

  • I don't go to church at all. And I don't care what the church does

    Votes: 48 44.9%
  • Total voters
    107
pecorino said:
I’m an Orthodox Christian, I was raised to believe that the church lost its way starting with the Great Schism of 1054. It’s been a long, slow downward spiral to what we see today in the mega churches and the rise of atheism. As far as I know Orthodoxy has maintained decent numbers. I’m still a parishioner and believe most of what I just wrote.
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World-wide, Christianity is actually on the rise - although numbers are exceeding birth rates by a fairly modest margin.

 
pecorino said:
I’m an Orthodox Christian, I was raised to believe that the church lost its way starting with the Great Schism of 1054. It’s been a long, slow downward spiral to what we see today in the mega churches and the rise of atheism. As far as I know Orthodoxy has maintained decent numbers. I’m still a parishioner and believe most of what I just wrote.
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What is orthodoxy. Is that like Methodist?

 
Nipsey said:
So @Jayrod, the writer of the article in the original post is mildly upset with the tactics used by the church to bring in younger members. You're saying that if attendance is low then you've failed at what God has asked you to do. My question is are there any tactics that would be unacceptable to you if using meant flourishing church attendance? The writer of the article wanted the focus to be on the sacraments or I guess the meat of why you're there, maybe what the other woman called "participation in the life of an ancient-future community". If the crux of why there isn't enough to get people in the door, what's acceptable in terms of tactics where you'd feel you weren't letting God down (for poor attendance or for methods used to increase attendance)? I guess I'm saying I could see an opportunity for unscrupulousness when you say if attendance is low then you're letting down God. (Not by you but by anyone who may thinks this)
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Thanks Nipsey.

I think one thing that's important. 

What (I think) @Jayrod is talking about is Christian principle to go out and spread the word and make disciples. It's often referred to as the "The Great Commission" and it's seen as instruction to Christians.

It's in the bible in the book of Matthew, chapter 28, verses 18 through 20.

New Living Translation: 18 Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. 19 Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations,[a] baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. 20 Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”
Click to expand...


I think it's an important distinction that Jesus didn't say, "Get the attendance numbers at the church as high as possible". 

Now Churches can be like businesses and you can do "the numbers game" and the "sales funnel" where you attract people to the top of the funnel and hope to "sell" a % of those that become "customers" at the bottom of the funnel. Just like Footballguys does. But I'm not sure church is supposed to work like a business like that. I'm not sure "making disciples" is the same as "making sales". 

There are lots of other ways to make disciples. Maybe it's a small group or maybe it's being in someone's life. 

I think it's a pretty important thought to think maybe "making disciples" just "doesn't scale". That it's not a numbers game. 

That's just a thought. There's no doubt the big attendance numbers can be impressive. And lots of church people talk about them. I'm just not certain that's the right angle. 

 
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She's right. If I ever found any sort of faith or belief that any of this isn't completely meaningless, the music that's played in most Christian churches would shut that down pretty quick.

 
I detest mega-churches and their marketing schemes.  Years ago (here in MS), my 12-year-old son was encouraged to bring me to a special evening service (full-blown Broadway-esque Easter production) at a local mid-sized megachurch. I'd plainly stated on a few occasions to my children, without great elaboration, that "church" was not for me; but, I had no issues accepting his invitation with politeness and respect.  What I didn't know was that the entire production was a ruse created with the dramatic expectation that non-believers would accept Jesus as their Savior in a miracle-like fashion (and many did walk up to the stage, arms raised, accepting Jesus as their Savior).  My son's expectations were such.  It broke my heart to see his crestfallen expression as we sat in the pew at the dramatic conclusion and I said in so many words, "Sorry, I can't pretend."  

My direct response to your post, Joe, is that the SON OF GOD came to earth and delivered a message that failed to unite humanity (EDIT: It failed to unite Christians!).  That's pretty damning sentiment. I say this with only 2000 years of history to shape my thoughts. Maybe a thousand years from now his message will come to fruition, and I'll be left with egg on my face.

 
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There is a huge mega church here that both won't let gay people become members, and also asks for your tax returns before letting you join up with singles groups or other family stuff. 

 
Good Posting Judge said:
She's right. If I ever found any sort of faith or belief that any of this isn't completely meaningless, the music that's played in most Christian churches would shut that down pretty quick.
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So, you find the truth about God, creation and eternal life, but you would just blow it off because you didn't like the choice of music?  Seems legit.

 
culdeus said:
There is a huge mega church here that both won't let gay people become members, and also asks for your tax returns before letting you join up with singles groups or other family stuff. 
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Becoming a member is usually different than attending service.  Being a member usually means being a voting member of the congregation.  I'd imagine that they are more than welcome to attend, but membership likely requires a confession of faith and adherence to the tenants of the religion.  Being an openly practicing gay person is against God's standards of conduct just like sleeping with a person you aren't married to or watching porn.  The Bible is clear that sexual immorality is not to be tolerated in the church, and certainly not to be actively practiced and celebrated.

Tax returns?  Probably false.  People say the same thing about our church and it is 100% false.  Not one person has ever had to show their tax return, but I hear it all the time.j

 
Jayrod said:
So, you find the truth about God, creation and eternal life, but you would just blow it off because you didn't like the choice of music?  Seems legit.
Click to expand...
Imagine my soul as an unlit match (accurate). Now imagine it's lit, and now I see a higher power and realize that there's some rhyme or reason to all of this.

Church music is a big-### bucket of water.

 
culdeus said:
What is orthodoxy. Is that like Methodist?
Click to expand...
No, the Methodist denomination is about 1700 years younger than Orthodoxy.

I'm Eastern Orthodox (which is just like Greek or Russian Orthodox, except based in the Middle East--I'm of Syrian ancestry). We consider ourselves Orthodox and Catholic but when most people use the word "Catholic," they mean "Roman Catholic." Rome split from the Eastern church in 1054. Orthodox meaning "true belief." Catholic meaning "universal". Our service, the Divine Liturgy, has not changed much since the 4th century. The traditions of the church have not changed much in 2000 years. We're kind of the opposite of what the original poster was lamenting--the church does not change even as society changes around it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church

 
Millennials aren’t coming back into the pews because people are sick of kid touchers and evolving past religion. The lame sad attempt to make it cool, I can only imagine, must make it way less cool. 

 
Mister CIA said:
My direct response to your post, Joe, is that the SON OF GOD came to earth and delivered a message that failed to unite humanity (EDIT: It failed to unite Christians!).  That's pretty damning sentiment. I say this with only 2000 years of history to shape my thoughts. Maybe a thousand years from now his message will come to fruition, and I'll be left with egg on my face.
Click to expand...
If you think Jesus came to unite the world, you have been misinformed.  He did not come to bring peace, but a sword (Matthew 10:34).  If you think he came to do what you think he should do, you are also misinformed.  He came to seek and save that which was lost and show the way to the Father.  Most of what He did (and is doing) is contrary to what we think He should do.

When He came to earth, He pitted himself against the phony and religious of his day, putting the entire established system on its head.  In fact, Jesus warned us that this very conflict between his followers and the religious would continue and even escalate until the end of this age.  If you want to learn what Jesus is about, actually read the gospels on your own and take it at face value. Seems like you might be fairly shocked at what you find in there.  If you want to be truly shocked, read through Exodus, Joshua and Judges and see what God is truly like.  There is not a one of us that fully knows or comprehends Him.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
Imagine my soul as an unlit match (accurate). Now imagine it's lit, and now I see a higher power and realize that there's some rhyme or reason to all of this.

Church music is a big-### bucket of water.
Click to expand...
There is literally every kind of music available in Christian form.  I'm currently sitting in a heavy rotation of NF and Lecrae (hip-hop artists).  NF in particular is very, very good.

 
Jayrod said:
Being an openly practicing gay person is against God's standards of conduct just like sleeping with a person you aren't married to or watching porn.
Click to expand...
This is false, plain and simple.

No offense, but you are applying your own misinterpretations of scripture.

The bible condemns homosexual acts. That's true.

The bible never, ever, ever states that being a "practicing gay person" is against God's standards.

(And while you may define "practicing gay" as "one who engages in homosexual acts", that is NOT how homosexuality is defined.)

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks Nipsey.

I think one thing that's important. 

What (I think) @Jayrod is talking about is Christian principle to go out and spread the word and make disciples. It's often referred to as the "The Great Commission" and it's seen as instruction to Christians.

It's in the bible in the book of Matthew, chapter 28, verses 18 through 20.

I think it's an important distinction that Jesus didn't say, "Get the attendance numbers at the church as high as possible". 

Now Churches can be like businesses and you can do "the numbers game" and the "sales funnel" where you attract people to the top of the funnel and hope to "sell" a % of those that become "customers" at the bottom of the funnel. Just like Footballguys does. But I'm not sure church is supposed to work like a business like that. I'm not sure "making disciples" is the same as "making sales". 

There are lots of other ways to make disciples. Maybe it's a small group or maybe it's being in someone's life. 

I think it's a pretty important thought to think maybe "making disciples" just "doesn't scale". That it's not a numbers game. 

That's just a thought. There's no doubt the big attendance numbers can be impressive. And lots of church people talk about them. I'm just not certain that's the right angle. 
Click to expand...
I agree that gaining attendees for attendance sake is a poor motivation.  Also I'd say that doing it for money is flat out evil.

However, when the Spirit of God is in a place, it is rare for people not to flock to it.  If we aren't seeing lives changed and new disciples, are we truly doing what God is asking us to do?  When people are truly following God, it generally means that the following will grow. 

The verse, "the harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few," basically states that there are many people waiting to come to Jesus.

 
[scooter] said:
This is false, plain and simple.

No offense, but you are applying your own misinterpretations of scripture.

The bible condemns homosexual acts. That's true.

The bible never, ever, ever states that being a "practicing gay person" is against God's standards.

(And while you may define "practicing gay" as "one who engages in homosexual acts", that is NOT how homosexuality is defined.)
Click to expand...
Sorry, then I think we are arguing semantics.  Because I am saying that someone who is having homosexual sex is practicing.  If I am wrong, then I apologize.

 
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Soulfly3 said:
joe bryant i am warning you right now, youve created a monster w this thread

bookmark it
Click to expand...
:unsure:

For some reason, I think this is referring to me....I should probably back away and go back to lamenting about the Celtics mailing it in tonight.

 
Not sure if my opinion matters because I do not ever go to church anymore, but I was raised in the Catholic Church. When I would go, one (of the many) things that really bugged me was how awful the music was. It was always so slow and depressing and ... just terrible. 

Mass is supposed to be a celebration and all of the Church's music makes you feel like you are at a funeral. Even on Easter Sunday - the best day of the year for Christianity - the music was slow and depressing and ominous. Forget fun music on Christmas. It was all solemn and slow.

So I don't know if more upbeat songs* is cool or not, but if it is, the Catholic Church needs to get cooler. I was always jealous of Southern Baptist churches with great choirs clapping and singing along.

*And the Father Will Dance and Blest Be the Lord were the only songs I remember that didn't make me want to pass out.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Thanks Nipsey.

I think one thing that's important. 

What (I think) @Jayrod is talking about is Christian principle to go out and spread the word and make disciples. It's often referred to as the "The Great Commission" and it's seen as instruction to Christians.

It's in the bible in the book of Matthew, chapter 28, verses 18 through 20.

I think it's an important distinction that Jesus didn't say, "Get the attendance numbers at the church as high as possible". 

Now Churches can be like businesses and you can do "the numbers game" and the "sales funnel" where you attract people to the top of the funnel and hope to "sell" a % of those that become "customers" at the bottom of the funnel. Just like Footballguys does. But I'm not sure church is supposed to work like a business like that. I'm not sure "making disciples" is the same as "making sales". 

There are lots of other ways to make disciples. Maybe it's a small group or maybe it's being in someone's life. 

I think it's a pretty important thought to think maybe "making disciples" just "doesn't scale". That it's not a numbers game. 

That's just a thought. There's no doubt the big attendance numbers can be impressive. And lots of church people talk about them. I'm just not certain that's the right angle. 
Click to expand...
Francis Chan gave a great sermon on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUEHZCxjq-o

 
Are the various branches of Christianity still not very tolerant or accepting of gays/transgenders/etc? Or things like abortion? Because if so, there’s a good reason why younger folk aren’t flocking to the church. The world is changing socially and if religions maintain their archaic beliefs on this stuff, they will be left behind. 

There’s also the whole bad publicity with pedo priests from recent years. I know I wouldn’t be in a hurry to send my kids to a Christian school. 

 
Jayrod said:
There is literally every kind of music available in Christian form.  I'm currently sitting in a heavy rotation of NF and Lecrae (hip-hop artists).  NF in particular is very, very good.
Click to expand...
I listened to an NF song. All music is inherently subjective, but I'm listening to this right now, so basically completely diametrically opposite of NF. Who, from what I can tell, is trying to say something positive, is actually working with some sort of budget, i'm guessing doesn't have many videos that feature himself carrying a tied-up woman through the forest or lyrics detailing punching people through the window of a pizza shop, and isn't that great at the actual rapping part, if we're being honest.

So yeah, opposite sides of the street.

 
A while back I went to a Catholic church that had an overflow mass in the gym.  No music, no shaking hands, no priest sitting around looking at his shoes for three minutes just because.  This puppy was done in 20 minutes (17 if you left after getting communion).  Easily the most popular mass at the church.   Things went so well that they built a bigger church, no more need for the gym mass, attendance dropped.  

When churches try to do big productions, where the "show" is more important than the message, I began to tune out, and stopped going.  Go ahead and sing the first verse, and I'm okay with hitting the second verse of a song.  The choir goes for the third verse, I'm starting to hate being in the building.   Then there is the pompous priest who thinks doing some of the service in Latin will deepen my connection with God.  

So, if you run a church, do a gym mass, get my donations signed up on EFT, and get me out of there in 20 minutes.  Oh, and change it to sacramental beer.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
I listened to an NF song. All music is inherently subjective, but I'm listening to this right now, so basically completely diametrically opposite of NF. Who, from what I can tell, is trying to say something positive, is actually working with some sort of budget, i'm guessing doesn't have many videos that feature himself carrying a tied-up woman through the forest or lyrics detailing punching people through the window of a pizza shop, and isn't that great at the actual rapping part, if we're being honest.

So yeah, opposite sides of the street.
Click to expand...
You are probably right.  I am a middle aged white dude, so my opinion on rap means probably zilch, but I enjoy his stuff.

 
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Jayrod said:
I'm pretty intricately involved with the local mega-church (largest weekly attendance in Missouri) and have been for about 25 years (less a few years when I went off to college).  The church was only about 3 years old when I started attending as a teenager.

We now have 4 campuses, coffee shops and live bands with every service and a simulcast system so we can all watch the same sermon on Sundays.  There are also 2 massive annual conferences (one for men and one for women).

What I can tell you is this, we use many means to advance the gospel of Jesus and be a light in the darkness to the world.  We have a no-questions asked food pantry, free counseling services, disaster relief services and host many public service events for the local municipalities and schools.  Is some of what we do "trendy" and "cool"?  Yes.  But you know who is running those events?  Millennials who are trendy and cool.  They aren't being fake, it is who they are and what they like.  The senior pastor is about 60 years old now and he leads the overall vision and preaches, but leaves the style, music and decor to the younger crowd.  The result is a fantastic mix of amazing music and services with hardcore, Biblical preaching.  The pastoral team practices "expository" preaching, which is preaching the Bible verse by verse.  We have also seen some serious public backlash from sermons on Catholicism, homosexuality and yoga, so there isn't exactly a softening of the message going on.

I'm sure there are a lot of churches with soft core preaching and feel-good services designed more for entertainment than teaching and preaching.  But I know at our church, the idea is simply to make people feel welcome to come and hear the truth of Jesus in an environment where they can feel loved and accepted. 
Click to expand...
Say what now?

 
I was born and raised Catholic..went to Catholic schools.   I wanted to stop going to church in HS but my mom made me go. Catholic masses were like groundhog day ..the same every week with a little different sermon. It was not for me as I got older.

Anything that inspires people to gather in a church setting to feel better about themselves or their lives is OK with me.

 
Jayrod said:
It is not an uncommon stance.

https://www.google.com/search?q=christianity+yoga&oq=christianity+yoga&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.6075j0j7&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
Click to expand...
I can't imagine why people would be losing interest in churches.

"Hey you, practicing another religions practices...that's wrong and demonic because.... it's not ours....what? No...dont worry about our practices that derived and borrowed from other jewish and pagan religions many moons ago"

 
comfortably numb said:
I can't imagine why people would be losing interest in churches.

"Hey you, practicing another religions practices...that's wrong and demonic because.... it's not ours....what? No...dont worry about our practices that derived and borrowed from other jewish and pagan religions many moons ago"
Click to expand...
Actually I think it's more like "Hey you, don't do yoga because it can turn you into a devil-worshipper."

 
  • Laughing
Reactions: Ned
comfortably numb said:
I can't imagine why people would be losing interest in churches.

"Hey you, practicing another religions practices...that's wrong and demonic because.... it's not ours....what? No...dont worry about our practices that derived and borrowed from other jewish and pagan religions many moons ago"
Click to expand...


Scoresman said:
Are the various branches of Christianity still not very tolerant or accepting of gays/transgenders/etc? Or things like abortion? Because if so, there’s a good reason why younger folk aren’t flocking to the church. The world is changing socially and if religions maintain their archaic beliefs on this stuff, they will be left behind. 
Click to expand...
If there is one thing I hope I make clear in here, it is that Christianity is not a popularity contest.  I think that was the entire point of the article and what Jesus reiterated time and time again.

As for what Christians should and should not practice:  I'm not for sticking to tradition for tradition's sake or just because it is more comfortable.  However, if it is a true teaching of Christ, we ought not change the teaching just because people don't like it.  I think sexual immorality, abortion and abstaining from practicing false religions are pretty well established teachings and will remain, regardless of the current societal trends.

 
[scooter] said:
Actually I think it's more like "Hey you, don't do yoga because it can turn you into a devil-worshipper."
Click to expand...
It is like, hey people who claim to be a Christian, don't do yoga because it has at its core a non-Christian brand of spirituality and its roots in the Hindu religion.

 
matuski said:
This thread had been fairly kid gloves.

Having said that, this is too much to let pass -  I would consider it a form of child abuse to let this jackass influence kids.
Click to expand...
He's heard way worse.  There were many death threats over his homosexuality sermon several years ago.  The backlash on this one was fairly minor in comparison.

He has also directly improved the lives of tens of thousands and probably indirectly hundreds of thousands.  In fact, I'd argue there are literally 100's of kids who are spared real life child abuse because of the positive effect he has had on parents through the last 25 years.

You know, real life stuff, not arguing on a message board hyperbole.

 
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Jayrod said:
He's heard way worse.  There were many death threats over his homosexuality sermon several years ago.  The backlash on this one was fairly minor in comparison.

He has also directly improved the lives of tens of thousands and probably indirectly hundreds of thousands.  In fact, I'd argue there are literally 100's of kids who are spared child abuse because of the positive effect he has had on parents through the last 25 years.

You know, real life stuff, not arguing on a message board hyperbole,
Click to expand...
This is the excuse religion is thankfully less and less often able to hide behind.

Real life those are the kids who grow and espouse garbage like that link you posted.  

Truly unfortunate.  Sad and upsetting that children are filled with this crap from before they have a chance to think for themselves.  Or even spell their names for that matter.

 
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matuski said:
This is the excuse religion is thankfully less and less often able to hide behind.

Real life those are the kids who grow and espouse garbage like that link you posted.  

Truly unfortunate.  Sad and upsetting that children are filled with this crap from before they have a chance to think for themselves.  Or even spell their names for that matter.
Click to expand...
Nevermind.

 
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