Jayrod
Footballguy
Sorry, I tried to get that out of there. I'm done with this tangent, it is fruitless and I was stupid to engage.
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Churches - Stop Trying To Be "Cool" (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Joe Bryant
- Start date
rockaction
Footballguy
This was the first thing I thought of, too. I really need to stop with the thinking about music thing I've got going on.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I’m an atheist who was once (at a young age) on track to be a minister.
It doesn’t really matter what the church does. It’s fading. And membership drives based on being disingenuous aren’t going to help enough to matter, in my opinion.
It doesn’t really matter what the church does. It’s fading. And membership drives based on being disingenuous aren’t going to help enough to matter, in my opinion.
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
Is this true? I guess maybe like South and Central America or third world? Not in Europe or US by any means right?
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Despyzer
Lousy Attention Whore
It's down in Europe. Christians are dying at a faster rate than being converted. Here is the US, the Christian population as a whole is increasing, but it's not keeping up with the birth rate.
From 2010 to 2015 (the most recent data we have by the Pew Research), Christianity increased by more than 65 million people in Africa, almost 33 million in Latin America, and almost 18 million in the Asian Pacific. Projections into 2050 suggest that the percentage of Christians in the world should hold more or less steady with the current number of roughly 31% of the world. 24.1% of the world are Islamic, and that percentage is projected to increase.
Buck Bradcanon
Footballguy
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
![[icon]](/data/avatars/m/5/5167.jpg?1660313464){kind=avatar}
[icon]
Insoxicated
Im not sure there is anything less cool than contemporary churches trying to be cool.
God is dead. Europe Is way ahead of the curve on this one, with old churches being converted to bars, restaurants, etc.
Outside of the Bible Belt, Christianity now pretty strongly correlates with lower income/education. I don’t think any degree of cheesy house bands and #jesuslives hashtags turning that around.
God is dead. Europe Is way ahead of the curve on this one, with old churches being converted to bars, restaurants, etc.
Outside of the Bible Belt, Christianity now pretty strongly correlates with lower income/education. I don’t think any degree of cheesy house bands and #jesuslives hashtags turning that around.
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TwinTurbo
Footballguy
You know what would have been a more rational stance. Tell the people to go buy LULU stock. Profit. Then give some back to the poor.
Back in my day, parachute pants and Z Cavarrici were the pants of sinners. Now yoga pants are the leggings of the damned.
I will concede that red pair of Z Cavarrici that I owned were a fashion abomination and I have repented for these past wrongs.
rockaction
Footballguy
Tom Wolfe touched on this in Mauve Gloves & Mad Men, Clutter and Vine.
The early seventies were an explosion of "cool" in churches. Nothing rang more hollow or seems more dated.
Wolfe on Jimmy Carter: "[A] Missionary lectern-pounding Amen ten-finger C-major-chord Sister-Martha-at-the-Yamaha-keyboard loblolly piney-woods Baptist."
As far as God being dead, God is around, just dormant in the zeitgeist.
The early seventies were an explosion of "cool" in churches. Nothing rang more hollow or seems more dated.
Wolfe on Jimmy Carter: "[A] Missionary lectern-pounding Amen ten-finger C-major-chord Sister-Martha-at-the-Yamaha-keyboard loblolly piney-woods Baptist."
As far as God being dead, God is around, just dormant in the zeitgeist.
HellToupee
Footballguy
What religion has cool churches?
Eephus
Footballguy
The Catholic church in SF where we were married and our kids were baptized is now a roller skating rink.
HellToupee
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
No argument here.
I went to Spain about a month ago and worked with an American missionary that had been there since the early 1990's. Churches don't work there because you say "church" and everyone thinks of the Roman Catholic church (state religion) and the Inquisition. I also went to Germany in 2004 as part of a youth mission trip and saw a bit more acceptance of Christianity, but the Lutheran Church is the state religion and things are "entrenched" a bit there as well. Religious groups as political entities has all but destroyed Christianity in much of Europe because it is mired in tradition and has a long history of being riddled with corruption. That probably has a lot more to do with it than them being progressive or God dying.
True Christianity has always been more strongly correlated with lower income/educated people because they are less capable of self reliance and life is less cozy and simple. Most people don't look for help until they feel like they need it. Finding help in the church and ultimately God is one of the primary ways that the gospel is spread. Jesus made this very clear in multiple lessons about the wealthy.
Bob Sacamano
Footballguy
As one of the more vocal Christians on the board, I felt like I should say something here.
This is a completely fair question.
In my opinion (and this is purely MY opinion), I see Churches (and Christians) spend what feels to me like way too much time and energy on all the things they're "against".
I'm not saying "nothing matters and do anything you like". But I'd much rather we be known for what we're for and not so much for the list of things we're against.
It's just so much better that way.
There's a reason Dana Carvey's finger wagging church lady character resonated. People could relate. And that's a bummer.
Christians may have 99 problems but yoga ain't one.
I'd much rather focus on how we Love God and Love our Neighbor. Seems like I've heard that somewhere else.
I'd also add this one. Do you know the times in the bible when Jesus was the most upset and the things he was most against?
Self righteous religious people who put rules and theology over loving God and loving People.
Self righteous religious people who put rules and theology over loving God and loving People.
IC FBGCav
Footballguy
Church doesn't need to to be cool. It doesn't need a hard line like never change your brand. It should focus on the community it serves and the positive ideals. Church is about forgiveness last I known it but they tend to focus no negatives. Drop the negativity, focus on the people and remember people are flawed. Demonizing is not going to work.
rockaction
Footballguy
i think that's what the young woman that passed on wrote often about the church, as Joe did upthread. I read an obit/personal interest article about her in the Atlantic today. Interesting stuff. I'd never heard of her. She leaves behind a husband and two young children. RIP.
proteus126
Footballguy
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Politician Spock
Footballguy
Eephus
Footballguy
Otis
Footballguy
We’re celebrating my oldest daughter’s first communion in a few weeks. The kids are all in religion classes. It was just the easiest path, made family happy and lots of their friends are in it. But we literally have not gone to mass once. Don’t think we ever will. So they’ll be fake Catholics. And I’m sure they won’t care a generation later. Lots of this sentiment around. Probably why the local church is always hitting us up for money.
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
This is the brand of Christianity I can get behind. Not the kind where people use the bible as a means to spread hatred and bigotry.Joe Bryant said:I'd also add this one. Do you know the times in the bible when Jesus was the most upset and the things he was most against?
Self righteous religious people who put rules and theology over loving God and loving People.
Politician Spock
Footballguy
I was told if a "fake" christian eats the communion bread and wine, they could potentially experience a scene from Alien.
Beef Ravioli
Footballguy
I am a three times on Sunday (Sunday School, Morning worship, evening Bible Study), midweek Bible Study/prayer meeting, every week attender to a very conservative/traditional church. Have been all my life (48 years old).
I think the church, as a whole, has been our worst enemy. Focusing on personal preferences, and constantly changing trying to appease an ever changing “world” (not meant as a slight but those outside the church).
The church should offer an alternative, and quit trying to be a lesser version of what people outside of the church already have.
I attend and have attended churches that for the most part strive to be Biblical. That is not always the popular choice but it is consistent. The world should not be the standard but the Bible should be the standard. Attendance numbers, although important should not be THE deciding factor of how the church operates.
I have seen in the last five years, a younger church going generation, finding their way back to the traditional style church versus the entertainment based churches. I have asked several why they are coming back. They all have said, they desire the consistency of being Bible based rather than being entertained. Simply said, they want Bible preaching and teaching.
I have for the most part attended churches that run 100-200 on Sunday morning. I currently attend a church that runs between 600-700 on Sunday morning.
I don’t anticipate the church as a whole to continue to grow (although I do believe individual churches can) based on what the Bible says: 2 Timothy 3.
I think the church, as a whole, has been our worst enemy. Focusing on personal preferences, and constantly changing trying to appease an ever changing “world” (not meant as a slight but those outside the church).
The church should offer an alternative, and quit trying to be a lesser version of what people outside of the church already have.
I attend and have attended churches that for the most part strive to be Biblical. That is not always the popular choice but it is consistent. The world should not be the standard but the Bible should be the standard. Attendance numbers, although important should not be THE deciding factor of how the church operates.
I have seen in the last five years, a younger church going generation, finding their way back to the traditional style church versus the entertainment based churches. I have asked several why they are coming back. They all have said, they desire the consistency of being Bible based rather than being entertained. Simply said, they want Bible preaching and teaching.
I have for the most part attended churches that run 100-200 on Sunday morning. I currently attend a church that runs between 600-700 on Sunday morning.
I don’t anticipate the church as a whole to continue to grow (although I do believe individual churches can) based on what the Bible says: 2 Timothy 3.
Jayrod
Footballguy
@Joe Bryant As the "initiator" of the yoga discussion, I want to point out that it was simply a small part of a single sermon and not a central doctrine. It became an issue when outside entities wrote articles about it and became a topic in this thread when people questioned it. We aren't a church with an anti-yoga agenda, but media and outside people make big deals out of things they disagree with. I was only bringing it up to point out that our church is not about being cool and popular...yet we are a massive and growing church.Joe Bryant said:In my opinion (and this is purely MY opinion), I see Churches (and Christians) spend what feels to me like way too much time and energy on all the things they're "against".
I'm not saying "nothing matters and do anything you like". But I'd much rather we be known for what we're for and not so much for the list of things we're against.
It's just so much better that way.
There's a reason Dana Carvey's finger wagging church lady character resonated. People could relate. And that's a bummer.
Christians may have 99 problems but yoga ain't one.
I'd much rather focus on how we Love God and Love our Neighbor. Seems like I've heard that somewhere else.
I completely agree that we should be about what we are for. Primarily love and grace. In fact, the pastor in question wrote his first book ever (after decades of people requesting him to write something) and it is entirely on the subject of grace (titled Soul Set Free). It has become his primary topic of sermons over the last couple of years as we go through the book of Romans.
Looking at the body of work, one would find it unquestionable that our church and pastor are about the love and grace of God. However, when all one sees or hears is a single soundbite or article, that becomes the only narrative they hear.
We don't often get to control the public narrative about our churches and there is an enemy that loves to take control and make us look bad in the eyes of the world.
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rockaction
Footballguy
This happens all the time in politics. Even when the conclusion regarding a position that the media concentrates on is true, they often gloss over the nuance of the premises used to arrive at said conclusion. This makes for sound byte arguments and making people look way out of the mainstream on certain issues.
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Thank you.
But this thread is a perfect example of how the world works.
You wrote several paragraphs. And included opposition to yoga as one of several things. Now I am knee deep in the Christian world. I know fully that opposition to yoga is miles down the list of things Christians are opposed to. I've met one Christian in my real life who was opposed to yoga. It's far from any mainstream position. But the reader of your post doesn't know that. How would they?
So they see the list of things you're opposed to and see yoga and the one response to all the words you wrote is, "say what?". And it was 100% how I'd expect him to respond.
Don't miss that. You wrote a bunch of words. Yoga was by far not the most important. But the way human nature works is all those words are looked over and the four letter word
word you wrote got all the attention. Exactly as I knew it would. When you wrote that, I knew it would get that response. And for sure, zero fault for the poster who responded with "say what?". That's exactly how anyone would respond.The takeaway then for a Christian in my opinion is what I said earlier. You don't have to drop any convictions and make everything ok. But you're way better off if you're known for what you're for. Not so much the laundry list of things you're against.
I absolutely believe that.
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Fortunately, that brand is straight and simple directly from Jesus. Matthew 22, verse 36-40. New Living Translation:
Some one asked Jesus this question:
As a Christian, that's the brand to follow I believe.
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Bull Dozier
Footballguy
Agreed.
IMO, and I'm no scholar, but if a Christian has to do some sort of mental gymnastics to justify a biblical interpretation to fit into the above quote, they really need to reevaluate their interpretation.
comfortably numb
Footballguy
Only reason i questioned yoga was because as someone who spent 5 years essentially in a cult where me and a few friends would gather daily to read scripture and pray, coming up with some extreme ideas of what we should/shouldn't be following, we never came up with yoga = demonic practices.Thank you.
But this thread is a perfect example of how the world works.
You wrote several paragraphs. And included opposition to yoga as one of several things. Now I am knee deep in the Christian world. I know fully that opposition to yoga is miles down the list of things Christians are opposed to. I've met one Christian in my real life who was opposed to yoga. It's far from any mainstream position. But the reader of your post doesn't know that. How would they?
So they see the list of things you're opposed to and see yoga and the one response to all the words you wrote is, "say what?". And it was 100% how I'd expect him to respond.
Don't miss that. You wrote a bunch of words. Yoga was by far not the most important. But the way human nature works is all those words are looked over and the four letter word
The takeaway then for a Christian in my opinion is what I said earlier. You don't have to drop any convictions and make everything ok. But you're way better off if you're known for what you're for. Not so much the laundry list of things you're against.
I absolutely believe that.
So i didn't get the correlation despite my background. I can see it now that i read up on the basis of the thought process of how one can conclude (if entrenched in the doctrine) how it may come off as "worshipping other gods". I think it's sad and nuts but was just surprised as i had never tied the 2 or heard of it.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
I would actually consider going to church if Lauren Mayberry was going to be there.
You know, I'm surprised someone hasn't made a cheesy Christian remix called "The Father We Share".
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comfortably numb
Footballguy
This imo is why religion being man made is flawed and continues to be at the center of violence/hatred.
The world changes and it's ok to change with it, as scary as it may seem. The message of love never has to change. Thats still the same message from the beginning to the end. Every country every religion has the same exact basis. Change is inevitable. I mean 200 years ago your same church may have forbidden women to speak in church or black people to attend.
As an outsider i now think christianity (and all other religions are nuts-no offense) but i do take joy in the churchs that embrace change. Anyone in a church today that doesn't like a new change or attempt at making a change is living and embracing a change that was made 10-100 years ago that someone would have hated or not approved of at some point in time.
Jesus must have been the biggest trying to be cool guy to ever walk the earth. A big point of his walk on earth was to break the laws and bondage of the law of moses to allow everyone to now be bound by the law of grace.....but people are ignorant and want to make new laws to bind themselves in. Whether it's blacks cant vote, gays cant marry, priests need to be celibate, you aught to tithe 10% etc....
Jesus hung out with hookers and vagabonds. Telling people you don't need to go to synagogues but that he is the church. Confess your faults amongst yourselves etc... Apostle paul said he became all things to all men that he may save some. Talk about changing to spread the doctrine.
Sorry for the rant. I made a lot of mistakes in the name of following the lord. Change is good and inevitable. The only preference anyone should be worried about is loving one another.
glvsav37
Footballguy
Nipsey
Footballguy
I had a thought a while back that eventually some churches would take the religious aspect out of it and simply become places where positive minded people come together and try to solve issues within themselves and the community. Maybe instead of calling them churches they're called Personal and Community Help Stations (or "PATCHES"). One month everyone down at "The Patch" is focused on cleaning up trash at local parks or the beach. The next month the focus is assisting the homeless. One week is devoted to planting trees around town. Maybe there are always trained professionals who work at the Patch assisting anyone who needs help with depression, substance abuse, their marriage, etc. Everyone brings their own unique skill set to the group and works together for the common good. I think young people, old people and most people in between would get behind something like that. Instead of having alters and masses you have social events and celebrations. Concerts, parties, carnivals to celebrate life and all the good work you've done to better yourself and the community. A place to go to where positive people like you are trying to make the best of the short time we have together on the planet but without the 2000 year old hocus pocus/Santa Claus stuff. A place to congregate and help each other, not in "the name of God", just simply to better our own lives and communities. We're not going to see it in our lifetimes but that seems like the direction things are moving.
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For sure. Thanks. And for sure, I wasn't criticizing you at all for you bringing it up. It was totally natural for you to bring it up.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Part of what we are dealing with in here is that this is truly a conversation between Christians. That is who the letter by Rachel Held Evans was written to and who the commands of God are for. Much of Biblical preaching will really only be applicable for Christians because it requires a relationship with God and commitment to discipleship to even be relevant.Thank you.
But this thread is a perfect example of how the world works.
You wrote several paragraphs. And included opposition to yoga as one of several things. Now I am knee deep in the Christian world. I know fully that opposition to yoga is miles down the list of things Christians are opposed to. I've met one Christian in my real life who was opposed to yoga. It's far from any mainstream position. But the reader of your post doesn't know that. How would they?
So they see the list of things you're opposed to and see yoga and the one response to all the words you wrote is, "say what?". And it was 100% how I'd expect him to respond.
Don't miss that. You wrote a bunch of words. Yoga was by far not the most important. But the way human nature works is all those words are looked over and the four letter word
The takeaway then for a Christian in my opinion is what I said earlier. You don't have to drop any convictions and make everything ok. But you're way better off if you're known for what you're for. Not so much the laundry list of things you're against.
I absolutely believe that.
But yet, we have many non-Christians weighing in on that discussion because it is done in a public manner. Sermons in church, blog articles written, message board discussions, tweets, etc. are all available for public consumption and commentary.
If we are going to truly discuss the word of God and the nuances of being a Christian in a public forum, things will get commented on and that can take on a life of its own. We cannot control that narrative 100%. If a pastor is to preach the Bible, he will touch on every topic therein. Some of that is the commands that tell us what not to do. If someone wants to take one of those "do not" commands and write an article about it or question it, there is nothing we can do to stop it.
I guess what I am trying to say is that, while I get what you are saying, unless a church preaches only a watered down version of the Bible, it is inevitable that the public will hear and weigh in on the "do not's". At that point, maybe we should just remain silent and not feel the need to respond or comment or clarify further. I know there are many, many times in this forum where I should just not reply, but too many times feel some stupid need to continue a fruitless discussion or debate.
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
One of my neighbors is a member of a church that is somewhat small (~2% of the country) but fairly prominent. He told me that his local church barely focuses on the "religious" aspect of their beliefs, but instead devotes most of their attention towards being better people and better members of the community. His summary was basically, "Who cares if my religion was founded by a crazy guy 189 years ago? The point is that we're doing good things now, and that's all that matters." He predicted that within 20 years, his entire religion would be mostly "community based", with the actual origins and dogma being reduced to footnotes.
Then he invited me to have dinner with his family and to play board games and charades afterwards. I politely declined.
Jayrod
Footballguy
I do kind of find it an odd tangent, personally.
We teach and preach that Jesus was a human man who was born from a virgin who was made pregnant by the Holy Spirit (or Ghost) who literally walked on water, made food spontaneously multiply, made water spontaneously turn into wine, healed people with incurable diseases and took dead people and made them alive again. And this same guy, we teach, was killed and came back to life and then morphed around for a few days before literally flying straight up into space like Superman. Then we teach that he will come back again the same way. These are the literal beliefs and teachings of Christianity.
But yet somehow, teaching that yoga is a practice that Christians should avoid because of its historical roots is considered crazy.
Sorry, but it is doesn't even move the needle on the nutty scale if you think the Bible is made up.
Agreed on the audience. I should have more clear as I didn't intend to have a conversation between Christians. This board is mostly not Christians. I was more asking everyone, regardless of their position, what they thought of her article. I do agree it was originally intended for churches as to how they should manage their services. But I also found a lot of non church people with an opinion on it. Which I think is great.
Last thing, and this is a conversation between Christians with you and I, in my opinion a church's preaching and teaching doesn't have to be "watered down" to be known more for what we're for than what we're against. But I hear what you're saying. All good.
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
One of the best thoughts related to this that I've ever heard is:
What you win people with, is what you win people to.
What you win people with, is what you win people to.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Nipsey
Footballguy
Getting back to premise of the thread, I think what you wrote here is probably the biggest reason why church attendance is down among the younger generation. Young people today aren't as accepting of things they don't believe to be right like generations past did. Look at the me too movement, their response to school shootings, how they accept gays/lesbian/trans, etc. Whether it's because they grew up with the internet or we've just evolved to this point, when their BS meter goes off, they act upon it.
I was on reddit around Easter. We all know reddit's demographic is much younger than here. Anyway, someone wrote in a thread over there: "Easter: the day Christians celebrate the story of how their God killed himself to save us from what he will do to us if we don't do what he says." That thread had a thousand responses, a lot of them with stuff similar to what you wrote in your post quoted above. The writer Joe quoted in the OP thought the way to get young people back was to focus on the "weird" stuff but I think it's the weird stuff that nudged them away to begin with. I don't even think it matters what tactics churches use, cool or not, to entice young people back. They're gone.
