Climate Change thread: UN Report: we need to take action (1 Viewer)

[caustic]

The question is how to we get the young people of China and India to get on board to hold protests and marches as well? But in reality China is the key player in this and this will be a most difficult task.

China's emissions passed those of the U.S. in 2005, and by 2012 had surpassed the combined contribution of both the U.S. and the EU.  China will be responsible for the most atmospheric carbon dioxide in less than 20 years.

China has regional company as well. The Asia Pacific region is home to both China and India -- the world's two most populous countries and the two largest carbon dioxide emitters. It is also home to other fast-growing and/or populous countries, like Indonesia, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Vietnam, and Japan. Over the past decade, this region's carbon dioxide emissions have grown at an average annual rate of 3.1% , which was nearly triple the global average. As a result, Asia Pacific is now responsible for well over 50% of global carbon dioxide emissions.

Frustratingly, Green R&D continues to be a relatively neglected climate policy. Once clean energy becomes cheaper than dirty energy, developing countries will use it. How did the price of Solar PV drop 99% over the last 40 years? Thank R&D.

 

[supermike80]

We all deserve to be lectured no matter how old the one doing the lecturing is...especially when they are right.

And i could not possibly care less if she offended you.

I disagree completely and totally.  And whether or not you care about my offense is irrelevant.  

 

[joffer]

offended

 

[Apple Jack]

Wait... You were offended because a 16 year old girl raised her voice?

O-M-G 

That was supermike, not me.

 

[The Duff Man]

I think it's possible that's more about the little conveniences that make life bearable, and getting used to them, and not being willing to disrupt them.  That the more pressure, difficulty, and responsibility there is on my shoulders, the more I want to say "Oh, to hell with it, I'm having a burger and then I'm driving 150 miles to a beach somewhere at 90 mph and #### the pollution."

But I don't think most kids are more willing to sacrifice.  They may not have the same skin in the game on certain sacrifices as adults, so some things aren't a sacrifice for them.  What things do you think kids are willing to sacrifice that adults aren't?

I don’t think we are disagreeing, my wording of sacrifice was a poor choice because giving up the same thing can be a sacrifice for one person and merely an inconvenience for another.

Those with less responsibility are more willing to give up money, a percentage of their pay check let’s say to combat an issue like this.

And donate time.  And give up life’s conveniences.

None of these “sacrifices” is the same for the average person in their teens or twenties, versus the average person with two kids, who needs to pay for braces and get them to soccer and dance class. 

Getting this latter group to care and give up something is the challenge.  Criticizing them for making decisions that any human would make isn’t going to get it done. 

 

[timschochet]

A few months back I was trying to explain to my father in law, who is not always up to date on modern day vocabulary, what a “snowflake” was. Don’t know how successful I was, but the next time I see him I’m going to offer up the example of this dude on the internet who said that he was offended by a 16 year old girl attempting to “lecture” him on climate change. That should do the trick. 

 

[John Blutarsky]

A few months back I was trying to explain to my father in law, who is not always up to date on modern day vocabulary, what a “snowflake” was. Don’t know how successful I was, but the next time I see him I’m going to offer up the example of this dude on the internet who said that he was offended by a 16 year old girl attempting to “lecture” him on climate change. That should do the trick. 

You may want to tell him about Squistion and others being offended by an emoji. That should help too.

 

[Henry Ford]

I don’t think we are disagreeing, my wording of sacrifice was a poor choice because giving up the same thing can be a sacrifice for one person and merely an inconvenience for another.

Those with less responsibility are more willing to give up money, a percentage of their pay check let’s say to combat an issue like this.

And donate time.  And give up life’s conveniences.

None of these “sacrifices” is the same for the average person in their teens or twenties, versus the average person with two kids, who needs to pay for braces and get them to soccer and dance class. 

Getting this latter group to care and give up something is the challenge.  Criticizing them for making decisions that any human would make isn’t going to get it done. 

Yeah, I think we agree on the basics.  I think the difficulty in these things is that people aren't making a decision based on reality, they're making a decision by refusing to think about it.  

"I don't have time to clean the dryer lint out of the vent" is a normal reaction, but if you realize your entire family could die if you don't clean it out regularly, you start to actually do it.

Her speech was predicated on the idea that people just don't think about what's going on and understand it, and if they did they'd do the right thing.

 

[Henry Ford]

You may want to tell him about Squistion and others being offended by an emoji. That should help too.

I'd use the like button to bring up a picture of a laughing person, but I know that bothers some people.  Also, definitely not an emoji.

 

[Henry Ford]

I disagree completely and totally.  And whether or not you care about my offense is irrelevant.  

Well, you don't have to lecture him about it.

 

[The Commish]

I disagree with the form the messenger took

so, is there a different reason you aren't lashing out at scientists who've been saying the exact same things with regard to climate change and pointing out the exact same consequences of inaction?

 

[The Commish]

So far as I'm aware, both of the items in red have been initiated in earnest and can expect to gain in efficiency as time passes.

I can't speak to the solar industry at large and how healthy it is, but I was under the impression that the subsidies for solar panels by the government were a big part of that industry.  With them going away, what is the projected path for solar without them?  I haven't seen any data on this, but it seems like a significant blow to the industry.

 

[Gr00vus]

so, is there a different reason you aren't lashing out at scientists who've been saying the exact same things with regard to climate change and pointing out the exact same consequences of inaction?

And now class, the logical fallacy for today is ad feminam:

short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The terms ad mulierem and ad feminam have been used specifically when the person receiving the criticism is female...

Let it never be said you don't learn stuff at FBGs.

 

[The Commish]

so, is there a different reason you aren't lashing out at scientists who've been saying the exact same things with regard to climate change and pointing out the exact same consequences of inaction?

And now class, the logical fallacy for today is ad feminam:

short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The terms ad mulierem and ad feminam have been used specifically when the person receiving the criticism is female...

Let it never be said you don't learn stuff at FBGs.

He's claiming this isn't the case....I am willing to hear him out  

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Please explain. Is the problem big, but not big enough that developing nations get a pass? Because it sounds pretty dire according to Greta.

The problem is big.  The countries that are primarily responsible for causing the mess need to take the lead in fixing it.  A major reason that the standard of living in the United States is so much higher than in places like China and India is because we've spent the last 100 years developing our country using fossil fuels.  And I hate when people say stuff like "China is as big a CO2 emitter as the U.S."  Not even close in per capita terms.  So we've done the lion's share of the damage in the past, and our citizens are doing the most damage in the present.  If anybody gets to do damage in the future, it's not us.

 

[lakerstan]

I love that she changed her Twitter bio - ""A very happy young girl looking forward to a bright and wonderful future."

Trolling the troll...

 

[Gr00vus]

Hope you are right but many feel whatever China agrees to you have to take with a grain of salt. 

It's true, but I think they have to know they need to make changes as well for their own sake. You've seen what it's like there, the amount of damage they're causing to their own immediate environment just isn't sustainable - they're poisoning and killing themselves. A thing I'm concerned about in relation to China is the amount if interest/investment they've been putting into Africa - I'm concerned that they're going to start externalizing the damage to there just as the U.S. has done to China and other southeast Asian countries.

 

[supermike80]

so, is there a different reason you aren't lashing out at scientists who've been saying the exact same things with regard to climate change and pointing out the exact same consequences of inaction?

Yeah.  because they are adults.   

 

[timschochet]

How dare you pretend that this can be solved with just 'business as usual' and some technical solutions?

Like @Doug B this line bothered me too, though I agree with her about the “business as usual” part. 

I have no idea whether her dismissal of “some technical solutions” is typical of those who have joined with Greta, but I continue to believe that technology is the only way out of this problem. Specifically, we have to come up with a way to make a non- carbon energy source as cheap and as profitable as carbon energy. Unless and until we do that we are never going to make the necessary transformation of society no matter how many Gretas warn us about the future. 

 

[Gr00vus]

Like @Doug B this line bothered me too, though I agree with her about the “business as usual” part. 

I have no idea whether her dismissal of “some technical solutions” is typical of those who have joined with Greta, but I continue to believe that technology is the only way out of this problem. Specifically, we have to come up with a way to make a non- carbon energy source as cheap and as profitable as carbon energy. Unless and until we do that we are never going to make the necessary transformation of society no matter how many Gretas warn us about the future. 

Technology is a way out, but behavioral changes are necessary as well. And that's the real problem, too many people are too lazy and too entitled to even consider making a few minor sacrifices.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

It's true, but I think they have to know they need to make changes as well for their own sake. You've seen what it's like there, the amount of damage they're causing to their own immediate environment just isn't sustainable - they're poisoning and killing themselves. A thing I'm concerned about in relation to China is the amount if interest/investment they've been putting into Africa - I'm concerned that they're going to start externalizing the damage to there just as the U.S. has done to China and other southeast Asian countries.

It's also worth noting that while the US does almost literally nothing, China is actually building nuclear plants.  I certainly don't mean to make the Chinese out to be the good guys in this story, but they're at least taking advantage of technology that already exists.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Like @Doug B this line bothered me too, though I agree with her about the “business as usual” part. 

I have no idea whether her dismissal of “some technical solutions” is typical of those who have joined with Greta, but I continue to believe that technology is the only way out of this problem. Specifically, we have to come up with a way to make a non- carbon energy source as cheap and as profitable as carbon energy. Unless and until we do that we are never going to make the necessary transformation of society no matter how many Gretas warn us about the future. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigovian_tax

 

[Gr00vus]

It's also worth noting that while the US does almost literally nothing, China is actually building nuclear plants.  I certainly don't mean to make the Chinese out to be the good guys in this story, but they're at least taking advantage of technology that already exists.

Another benefit of a nationalized/centrally planned economy - there is no NIMBY to deal with, you stake out nuclear energy production zones and build what's necessary. Of course lots of very, very bad environmental problems have been caused by that same nationalized/centrally planned economy.

 

[The Commish]

so, is there a different reason you aren't lashing out at scientists who've been saying the exact same things with regard to climate change and pointing out the exact same consequences of inaction?

Yeah.  because they are adults.   

thanks...good luck to you

 

[Black Box]

The problem is big.  The countries that are primarily responsible for causing the mess need to take the lead in fixing it.  A major reason that the standard of living in the United States is so much higher than in places like China and India is because we've spent the last 100 years developing our country using fossil fuels.  And I hate when people say stuff like "China is as big a CO2 emitter as the U.S."  Not even close in per capita terms.  So we've done the lion's share of the damage in the past, and our citizens are doing the most damage in the present.  If anybody gets to do damage in the future, it's not us.

So the problem is big, but not big enough to involve developing countries? I get what you're saying (the countries mainly responsible to this point ought to take the lead and sacrifice), but you are sounding like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 

[The Commish]

so, is there a different reason you aren't lashing out at scientists who've been saying the exact same things with regard to climate change and pointing out the exact same consequences of inaction?

And now class, the logical fallacy for today is ad feminam:

short for argumentum ad hominem, typically refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. The terms ad mulierem and ad feminam have been used specifically when the person receiving the criticism is female...

Let it never be said you don't learn stuff at FBGs.

He's claiming this isn't the case....I am willing to hear him out  

Guess this is where I misunderstood him...this is where I officially put the  on...sorry!

 

[Gr00vus]

Guess this is where I misunderstood him...this is where I officially put the  on...sorry!

Best course is to ignore - almost nothing gets said by that account that's worth reading.

 

[supermike80]

Best course is to ignore - almost nothing gets said by that account that's worth reading.

So fragile.   

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

So the problem is big, but not big enough to involve developing countries? I get what you're saying (the countries mainly responsible to this point ought to take the lead and sacrifice), but you are sounding like you are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I'm not trying to talk out of both sides of my mouth.  Yes, developing countries need to make changes too.  I just don't think it's a good excuse for us to refuse to make changes here because we're not happy with the changes they've made there.  

 

[msommer]

Does seem relevant but no, he was talking about the state of the worlds emissions in the past decade and looking toward the future decade. The whole point he was making is that the USA-EU has little control unless China-India adjust.

So forgot to mention that China is already adjusting. Interesting....

 

[The Commish]

So fragile.   

Says the guy "offended" by a teenager telling him the same things science has for decades.  Really?

 

[The Commish]

Best course is to ignore - almost nothing gets said by that account that's worth reading.

It's always good to keep tabs on all the various perspectives....this was one I had never run across before, so I thought I'd see how it went.  It's right up there with his polls shtick it seems.

 

[supermike80]

Says the guy "offended" by a teenager telling him the same things science has for decades.  Really?

But...I won't ignore.  That was my only point.  I can handle different viewpoints.   I enjoy it.  

And again, get off the "science has been saying for decades" thing.  I understand you believe climate change is real, that's not my stand. My stand is using a child like this was wrong.  100% wrong.  Especially the way she presented herself.  I do not appreciate being scolded buy a kid.   That was my push back.

 

[kface]

But...I won't ignore.  That was my only point.  I can handle different viewpoints.   I enjoy it.  

And again, get off the "science has been saying for decades" thing.  I understand you believe climate change is real, that's not my stand. My stand is using a child like this was wrong.  100% wrong.  Especially the way she presented herself.  I do not appreciate being scolded buy a kid.   That was my push back.

Someone has got to scold people and it's not the adults in the room...so good on her.  The fact that it upsets you means it's working

 

[supermike80]

Someone has got to scold people and it's not the adults in the room...so good on her.  The fact that it upsets you means it's working

Cute.  But no

 

[msommer]

Do you disagree with the message or just the form the messenger took?  I don't recall you lashing out at the science community like this.  Seems odd  

He did question all of their conclusions and suggested all those affected by climate change move to Greenland. 

Maybe Supermike is Tom Cotton?

 

[msommer]

...

While I have read that there is/was a major fire in the Amazon ... I am ignorant of the specifics. How it started (purposefully, through negligence, naturally, something else, etc.), how it's being fought, and what feasible measures can be taken.

Are you aware that Google is your friend?

 

[supermike80]

He did question all of their conclusions and suggested all those affected by clinate chsnge move to Greenland. 

Maybe Supermike is Tom Cotton?

I don't remember saying affected by climate change should move to Greenland---Hmmm.     That one seems like a bit of a stretch.

 

[The Commish]

But...I won't ignore.  That was my only point.  I can handle different viewpoints.   I enjoy it.  

And again, get off the "science has been saying for decades" thing.  I understand you believe climate change is real, that's not my stand. My stand is using a child like this was wrong.  100% wrong.  Especially the way she presented herself.  I do not appreciate being scolded buy a kid.   That was my push back.

Here's the good news or the silver lining if you will.....the first step in fixing a problem is acknowledging you have it, so there's that.  As I said before...good luck to you  

Clearly you can't handle differing opinions especially from people younger than you.  This little tirade seems to be evidence of that.  Either way, I'm not sure that your reaction here is any more "mature" than simply ignoring.  Who are we trying to kid here?

 

[supermike80]

Here's the good news or the silver lining if you will.....the first step in fixing a problem is acknowledging you have it, so there's that.  As I said before...good luck to you  

Clearly you can't handle differing opinions especially from people younger than you.  This little tirade seems to be evidence of that.  Either way, I'm not sure that your reaction here is any more "mature" than simply ignoring.  Who are we trying to kid here?

I'm not really sure what your point is?

 

[msommer]

I don't remember saying affected by climate change should move to Greenland---Hmmm.     That one seems like a bit of a stretch.

You did. But understable that you have repressed that memoey.  I even had to spend time letting you know the size of Greenland and whether it could hold hundreds of millions of people

ETA I suppose it is positive in a way that you remember questioning the conclusions of the climate scientists again and again

 

[supermike80]

You did. But understable that you have repressed that memoey.  I even had to spend time letting you know the size of Greenland and whether it could hold hundreds of millions of people

Yeah.  Pretty sure I didn't say that.  But hey, if you wanna believe it, what do I care.

 

[Doug B]

...

While I have read that there is/was a major fire in the Amazon ... I am ignorant of the specifics. How it started (purposefully, through negligence, naturally, something else, etc.), how it's being fought, and what feasible measures can be taken.

Are you aware that Google is your friend?

Cards on the table: I lack the interest to delve deeper than the headlines on this particular event. At this point, however, I kind of have to.

 

[supermike80]

Cards on the table: I lack the interest to delve deeper than the headlines on this particular event. At this point, however, I kind of have to.

These guys will ramble on about climate change endlessely, until you ask them to, then all of a sudden they are tooo busy.  Very weird man. 

 

[caustic]

Like @Doug B this line bothered me too, though I agree with her about the “business as usual” part. 

I have no idea whether her dismissal of “some technical solutions” is typical of those who have joined with Greta, but I continue to believe that technology is the only way out of this problem. Specifically, we have to come up with a way to make a non- carbon energy source as cheap and as profitable as carbon energy. Unless and until we do that we are never going to make the necessary transformation of society no matter how many Gretas warn us about the future. 

Not sure this is what Greta meant exactly, but I know a lot of activists attack "technical solutions" because they're sometimes used as a crutch by denialist politicians. You see this with the GOP in particular - "We just need to innovate our way out of this problem" is often code for "We don't want to pass any policy." It’s being deployed a lot more as the science becomes harder and harder to flat-out deny.

 

[Da Guru]

So forgot to mention that China is already adjusting. Interesting....

Maybe he covered it before I tuned in.   Plus after about 10 minutes I went back to classic rock so maybe he covered it after. I don`t have the transcript.

 

[badmojo1006]

:(

Laura Ingraham compares Greta Thunberg to Children of the Corn.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/sep/24/laura-ingraham-compares-greta-thunberg-to-children/?utm_campaign=shareaholic&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=socialnetwork

Her brother has had enough,  will no longer defend her

 

[JuniorNB]

Her brother has had enough,  will no longer defend her

I've seen a few 'friends' on Facebook attacking the young girl, too. It's truly unbelievable what has happened to this country.  Did Trump turn all these people into hateful, miserable, despicable humans or were they always like that and he just made it acceptable to stop hiding it? 

 

[Gr00vus]

I've seen a few 'friends' on Facebook attacking the young girl, too. It's truly unbelievable what has happened to this country.  Did Trump turn all these people into hateful, miserable, despicable humans or were they always like that and he just made it acceptable to stop hiding it? 

The bolded is your answer.

 

[sho nuff]

I've seen a few 'friends' on Facebook attacking the young girl, too. It's truly unbelievable what has happened to this country.  Did Trump turn all these people into hateful, miserable, despicable humans or were they always like that and he just made it acceptable to stop hiding it? 

Same people who went in and on about the high school boys in DC clashing with the protesters and Native Americans