Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
While I'm at it, the 3rd worst thing about LL baseball is the pitch count rules. I get what they were trying to do, I understand it. But the rules as they are set up now are crazy overboard
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Coaching Youth Sports - Crazy ### Parents (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ray Karpis
- Start date
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
How so? I thought pitch count rules for Little League in my area pretty reasonable.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
36 pitches = 2 days rest. So throw 36 pitches Friday morning you can't pitch again until Monday at the earliest.
51 = 3 days rest. 51 pitches on say a Thursday morning and your done until Monday at the earliest.
85 pitches = 4 days.
These are for 12 yr olds, it's more rest for younger kids. Again, I understand what they're trying do with the rules, but imo they got carried away.
These rules have made it so the best teams don't win in tournament play, the teams that have the most pitching depth win now
comfortably numb
Footballguy
I'm not involved in LL but I don't understand the issue with the above.
MLB gives a pitcher 4-5 days off.
I think rewarding teams with good pitching depth is 100x better than rewarding teams that have a stud pitcher who throws 1 hitters every time he is on the mound.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I don't disagree with that at all. But there has to be middle ground in there somewhere.
An all star team shouldn't have to have 5 pitchers on a roster of 11-12 players to advance in tournament play imo.
Ray Karpis
Footballguy
Totally disagree with you here. Those pitch count align pretty closely with the Pitch Smart guidelines developed by MLB and Dr. James Andrews. They didn't just arbitrarily come up with those numbers, and they're designed to curb the biggest contributor to arm issues in young players - pitching while fatigued.
As a dad and coach, I couldn't care less if that means I win fewer games because I can't trot out my ace again on two days rest.
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James Daulton
Footballguy
Ray Karpis
Footballguy
Genetics, baby. Grandpappy Earl once threw no-hitters in both games of a double header!
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
How do feel about kids throwing curve balls?
What are your thoughts on pitchers practicing pitching during those 5 days they have to have off after throwing 85 pitches?
Pipes
Footballguy
Agreed especially since these kids aren't completely resting after pitching either. Many are playing SS, CF wherever the very same day or day after pitching 4 or 5 innings.
DallasDMac
Footballguy
I'd like to hear some opinions from parents whose kids aren't the best or second best players on the team. Doesn't seem there are any in the FFA though. 
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Too much drama in youth sports for me. Glad my kids prefer camping. Very little drama in camping.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
To be clear, I was talking about the pitch count rules for the 10 year olds in Little League. I have no problem with the pitch counts and actually think they are very reasonable. They also make it much more strategic for coaches on when to pull a pitcher to save him for the next game. I didn't realize the same pitch counts apply to 12 year olds, but am okay with that too.
I am strongly against curve balls for my 10 year old. I pitched professionally for 7 years and I will teach the kids proper piitching mechanics, a 4 seam and 2 seam fastball and a change up. I am trying to avoid my son throwing a curve ball until at least high school.
Mr. Know-It-All
Footballguy
I was head coach for a 14U travel team that was moderately successful, lots of good players and for the most part great parents. Except one....
Kid had decent athletic ability but nothing between the ears so he was impossible to coach. Instruction went in one ear and out the other. He thought he was a catcher and a shortstop, but he had the tools for neither position. So on a team of 14 players, he was maybe the third catcher and the fourth shortstop - but he did alright in the OF which is where he got most of his playing time. He was also maybe our 5th or 6th best pitcher.
Well we are in a tournament game, he is behind the plate and had caught a pretty good game to that point when in the 6th inning all of the sudden he could not throw a ball back to the pitcher to save his life. Our pitcher turned into a soccer goalie on every throwback trying to corral every ball the catcher threw back to the mound. After the third or fourth straight terrible throw I just encouraged him to focus and play catch with the pitcher. It got worse, but we had a 7 run lead so I just told him he needed to work through it. The inning mercifully ended but not after 15-20 terrible throws back to the pitcher. We won the game and afterwards I pulled the catcher aside and gave him some tips on how to avoid mental blocks like the one he just encountered but I was proud of him for having worked through it without me having to pull him from the game.
The next morning before our first game - right in front of the entire team (of 14 year olds) his old man angrily confronts myself and my assistants about how I could have left him in to embarrass himself like that. Why did I not call time out and go instruct him on how to throw the ball back properly. Dropped a bunch of F bombs and said all we ever do is scream at the boys and not coach them. Kids were in shock - I asked him to leave the area and we would continue the conversation after the game not in front of the team.
We settle the team down, and begin the next game - our starting pitcher struggles and we fall behind early. The SP just doesn't have it so I warm up the kid who had struggled at catcher the previous day - the one who could not throw the ball 60 feet back to the pitcher without spiking it or launching it into centerfield and guess what happened? He threw great. Every other parent in the stands was shocked that I woudl put him on the mound after the previous day but he threw great and had excorsized his throwing demons.
Did that belligerent parent ever apologize? Nope? He was a blowhard - thought his kid was the best ever, had to be the coaches whenever he was not perfect.
Fast forward two years - his kid is now playing high school ball, still not listening to coaches - hitting .092 on the reserve team when his coachable teammates are now succeeding at the JV and Varsity levels. Still his old man in the vocal guy in the stands criticizing the HS coaches and blaming them for his kid's lack of ability. If you only have ONE of those parents it is too many - but if you only have one you are truly blessed - so many teams I have seen have stands full of bleacher coaches.
Kid had decent athletic ability but nothing between the ears so he was impossible to coach. Instruction went in one ear and out the other. He thought he was a catcher and a shortstop, but he had the tools for neither position. So on a team of 14 players, he was maybe the third catcher and the fourth shortstop - but he did alright in the OF which is where he got most of his playing time. He was also maybe our 5th or 6th best pitcher.
Well we are in a tournament game, he is behind the plate and had caught a pretty good game to that point when in the 6th inning all of the sudden he could not throw a ball back to the pitcher to save his life. Our pitcher turned into a soccer goalie on every throwback trying to corral every ball the catcher threw back to the mound. After the third or fourth straight terrible throw I just encouraged him to focus and play catch with the pitcher. It got worse, but we had a 7 run lead so I just told him he needed to work through it. The inning mercifully ended but not after 15-20 terrible throws back to the pitcher. We won the game and afterwards I pulled the catcher aside and gave him some tips on how to avoid mental blocks like the one he just encountered but I was proud of him for having worked through it without me having to pull him from the game.
The next morning before our first game - right in front of the entire team (of 14 year olds) his old man angrily confronts myself and my assistants about how I could have left him in to embarrass himself like that. Why did I not call time out and go instruct him on how to throw the ball back properly. Dropped a bunch of F bombs and said all we ever do is scream at the boys and not coach them. Kids were in shock - I asked him to leave the area and we would continue the conversation after the game not in front of the team.
We settle the team down, and begin the next game - our starting pitcher struggles and we fall behind early. The SP just doesn't have it so I warm up the kid who had struggled at catcher the previous day - the one who could not throw the ball 60 feet back to the pitcher without spiking it or launching it into centerfield and guess what happened? He threw great. Every other parent in the stands was shocked that I woudl put him on the mound after the previous day but he threw great and had excorsized his throwing demons.
Did that belligerent parent ever apologize? Nope? He was a blowhard - thought his kid was the best ever, had to be the coaches whenever he was not perfect.
Fast forward two years - his kid is now playing high school ball, still not listening to coaches - hitting .092 on the reserve team when his coachable teammates are now succeeding at the JV and Varsity levels. Still his old man in the vocal guy in the stands criticizing the HS coaches and blaming them for his kid's lack of ability. If you only have ONE of those parents it is too many - but if you only have one you are truly blessed - so many teams I have seen have stands full of bleacher coaches.
Tau837
Footballguy
Sabertooth
Footballguy
That is true. Forgot about that one. Lol
Ray Karpis
Footballguy
I'm anti-curveball at that age. My 11 isn't allowed to throw one. There are differing opinions on the appropriate age to start, I probably won't allow it until they are 14-15, at a minimum. I just don't think it's a necessary pitch at that age. Like someone else said - 4-seam, 2-seam, change...that's plenty.
I don't think a kid should throw a bullpen in the middle of their rest days. Regular throwing is ok, playing another position is ok, but I wouldn't have them "practicing" pitching.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
We agree on curveballs. They're harder on the arm than alot of fastballs imo, especially with bad mechanics, yet there's no restrictions on them.
I honestly don't know how a kid can be an effective pitcher without alot of practice yet there aren't any restrictions on that either. How can an 11or 12 yr old be expected to pitch in allstar tournaments, and pitch well, throwing only 85 pitches once a week?
I'm alot more experienced coaching softball, so maybe I'm talking out my ###, idk
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
It really gets strategic for coaches during the regular season and he only has maybe 3 kids that can throw strikes..and a few games get rained out and you have to play 3-4 games in 7 days
Craig_MiamiFL
Footballguy
I think OP handled everything great. I haven't read every single post, but I would show the text to all the parents so he never shows his face again. #### that guy
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Tau837
Footballguy
With regard to curveballs, there has never been any study that showed curveballs are harder on the arm at a young age (at any age, frankly) than fastballs. In fact, there have been several studies over the past decade that show the opposite, i.e., that fastballs are harder on the arm.
If you don't want to teach the curveball early because you believe it is better for a pitcher's development to master fastball, change, and control, IMO there is some merit to that. Allowing kids to learn curveballs early can stunt the development of their velocity and control.
But it is not necessary to ban the curve. It is necessary to teach how to throw it with proper mechanics, but that is no different than fastballs. High pitch counts and pitching when the arm is fatigued are both worse on the arm than breaking balls.
All that said, I am not a youth coach, and I am making these comments simply based on what I have read on the subject.
If you don't want to teach the curveball early because you believe it is better for a pitcher's development to master fastball, change, and control, IMO there is some merit to that. Allowing kids to learn curveballs early can stunt the development of their velocity and control.
But it is not necessary to ban the curve. It is necessary to teach how to throw it with proper mechanics, but that is no different than fastballs. High pitch counts and pitching when the arm is fatigued are both worse on the arm than breaking balls.
All that said, I am not a youth coach, and I am making these comments simply based on what I have read on the subject.
Don't Noonan
Footballguy
Tau837
Footballguy
Young Arms and Curveballs: A Scientific Twist
Studies Show That the Curveball Isn’t Too Stressful for Young Arms
Curveballs, sliders and pitch counts: Surviving life as a pitcher with your arm intact
Proving That Sliders and Curveballs Are Not Responsible for Breaking Pitchers
These are mostly articles about studies but the studies are linked or you can get enough info from these articles to Google them.
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
The screwier thing for the LL pitch count rules is that they are not a "hard" rule. By that I mean, if a kid crosses a threshold during an AB (crossing over the 35 pitch count threshold for example) and is immediately taken out after that batter the pitch count reverts back to the previous threshold allowing for one day's less rest before being able to pitch again.
To me this makes zero sense. The kid threw the pitches so why should it revert back for rest purposes? I have never understood the reasoning behind this.
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I also never understood why they have a restriction regarding pitching and catching in the same game however it kind of only goes one way. If you start a 4th inning catching you cannot pitch that day, however if started on the mound and pitched less than 40 pitches you can then go into catch and catch as many innings as you want to. There is no restrictions going that way. Another rule that makes no sense in LL.
Ray Karpis
Footballguy
UPDATE:
Fast-forward almost a year later, the jack### dad from the OP took his kid and left our ballpark. They went to another park in our district and played this spring season. Well the stars align and this guy manages to snag the job as head coach of that league's 10yo all-star team. His kid is the "star" player...smaller pond, you know the deal.
Each of our teams won our respective sides of the winners bracket in the district tournament, and we met in the winners bracket final tonight. Winner of this game was guaranteed a spot in the state tournament.
We put up a 13-spot in the top half of the first inning (all with 2 outs), and it just got uglier from there. He doesn't understand the rules and had two substitution issues that caused him to bat out of order. In the final inning, they started without a LF because two of his parents were mad at him pulled their kids out of the dugout and left before the game was over. Just chaos in his dugout the entire game.
We pulled our starting pitcher after the second inning and subbed out our infield at the same time.
Final score 21-2.
#karma
Fast-forward almost a year later, the jack### dad from the OP took his kid and left our ballpark. They went to another park in our district and played this spring season. Well the stars align and this guy manages to snag the job as head coach of that league's 10yo all-star team. His kid is the "star" player...smaller pond, you know the deal.
Each of our teams won our respective sides of the winners bracket in the district tournament, and we met in the winners bracket final tonight. Winner of this game was guaranteed a spot in the state tournament.
We put up a 13-spot in the top half of the first inning (all with 2 outs), and it just got uglier from there. He doesn't understand the rules and had two substitution issues that caused him to bat out of order. In the final inning, they started without a LF because two of his parents were mad at him pulled their kids out of the dugout and left before the game was over. Just chaos in his dugout the entire game.
We pulled our starting pitcher after the second inning and subbed out our infield at the same time.
Final score 21-2.
#karma
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shuke
Black Ice Skeptic
OrtonToOlsen
Footballguy
Sabertooth
Footballguy
That's awesome. Not for his kid. His kid still has to live with the ### hole.
Ray Karpis
Footballguy
I felt bad for his kid. I'm sure he probably gave him a big pep talk before the game..."let's go show 'em"...etc. Kid had a lot of unnecessary pressure, I imagine.
His kid came in to pitch in relief halfway thru the 1st inning...we scored 8 on him and he was crying on the mound.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
That sucks. But what can you do right? Some people just shouldn't be parents. I'm sure you didn't rub his nose in it.
OrtonToOlsen
Footballguy
"HEY, DUROCHER! LOOKS LIKE YOUR DAUGHTER'S GETTING HER FIRST PERIOD. BETTER YANK HER!"
And then highfive all your lapdogs.
Ned
Footballguy
roadkill1292
Footballguy
I am a terrible person for laughing at that. My board enemies are right about me.
SwampDawg
Footballguy
Just finished the Ripken state tournament with my son's 10U team (assistant coach and score keeper) and what a great experience. Our league as most in our area have been independent for years, a neighboring league joined Ripken last year and convinced a few of the other local leagues to join as well this year. We managed to win our district tournament and had no idea what to expect at states being a really small town based organization. From the skills competition Friday through the quarterfinals Sunday night when we were eliminated it was a fun time and pretty well run. Going 3-0 in pool play certainly helped the experience as well. Enjoyed that after the handshakes they had the teams lineup and the opposing coach present a game ball to the player he felt played the best on the other team. Pretty neat idea, not sure if that is a Ripken requirement or just something the tournament organizer did but is something we are goin gto incorporate into our tournament next year.
Been coaching since my soon to be 14 year old was in Tee Ball and parents can be jerks but weekends like this make it all worth while.
Been coaching since my soon to be 14 year old was in Tee Ball and parents can be jerks but weekends like this make it all worth while.
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
Mr. Ected
Footballguy
Silencing parents - New Rule in NC Soccer league requires parents to be silent during the month of September or penalty to team. Interesting.
belljr
Footballguy
There is a great divide on the board and the old guard is watching it implode and clueless to todays landscape
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
Gotcha, I wasn't sure what you meant or if that was a typo.
My youngest is starting high school in the fall. While high school sports aren't all that, there is a level of acceptance with them for me knowing I can't volunteer my way to improving the program, so I am able to let go and just accept it for what it is. Other than summer baseball, both of my boys are now done with youth sporting programs, and I am quite happy with that.
roadkill1292
Footballguy
Well, that still confuses me.
Somebody in England had recent poll results (small sample, admittedly) of youth soccer players who indicated by a fairly wide margin that they would prefer the occasional week of competition with no parents allowed in attendance at all. I think we now have multiple generations of parents who were never "free range" kids and it's affecting the way they see youth sports. Might be a dumb theory, I dunno.
belljr
Footballguy
Long story short. 10 years ago - these guys did a great job creating a league and have girls of all skill levels play.
Now that numbers are dwindling and other towns are offering travel teams of varying skill levels, club teams forming, etc they refuse to change with the times and are holding on to old principles and kids are fleeing by the dozens for other towns.
One email one of the guys said he disagrees with club , that we should be able to offer the same benefits, us leaving is putting a hole in the program (because last year 1 team left whne we did not form a "B") The difference is we are going to a good club team because the girls are ready. Anyway he argued that town travel should not be a "gateway" to club ball.
His very next email then says we are a rec program that offers travel.
SO which is it - you want to keep the club girls or not?
The kicker in all this is the last 4 weeks, we just hosted ~ 100 club teams in different tournaments. *But club is dead.
Eta....we are going to have 40 kids tryout for travel because they want more than rec. Even if they are not there skills wise. So they have 1team of 12 kids and they force the other 28 back into the rec program
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Jayrod
Footballguy
SwampDawg
Footballguy
We went through that with our baseball organization, majority of old guard didn't want to change a couple things that were driving people to look at other programs. They were locals and grew up in the program and didn't know any way except "that is the way we have always done it". Luckily over a few years as their kids aged out they got discouraged and left the board and have been replaced by guys from outside the area and some local guys who saw things need to change. Has every move been perfect, no, but the reaction overall has been positive to the changes made.
