scorchy
Footballguy
Upthread. Kid got accepted to Stanford via Restricted Early Action back in mid-December.
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College Admissions Questions (1 Viewer)
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El Floppo
Footballguy
I just got emotional... no joke.
that is amazing scorch! so happy for him and you guys!!
explain Restricted Early Action to me, please. and tell me more about your kid!
El Floppo
Footballguy
Scorch... I think you know I grew up around there. my brother went there, and I got hotly recruited to play there (and still hit myself for turning it down).. so got a good sense of the place in the 80s.... which means... freaking bupkis right now 
but... if you have any questions involving the school and town in the 80s- I'm your guy.
what does your kid want to study?
and I saw he's looking at UCLA as well and liked Westwood. yeah. palo alto is no westwood. the campus was called "the farm" for a reason... I don't remember a real sense of belonging to an outer community, tbh. but that mightve changed in the half century since I last looked. maybe.
but... if you have any questions involving the school and town in the 80s- I'm your guy.
what does your kid want to study?
and I saw he's looking at UCLA as well and liked Westwood. yeah. palo alto is no westwood. the campus was called "the farm" for a reason... I don't remember a real sense of belonging to an outer community, tbh. but that mightve changed in the half century since I last looked. maybe.
scorchy
Footballguy
Thanks, Flop. Means a lot.
A large number of schools have Early Decision (ED) where you apply by October 31 and you get an answer mid-December. However, there are strict limits on the ability to apply to other schools until you get a decision, and if you're accepted, it's binding (with certain exceptions). Stanford (plus Princeton, Harvard, and Yale) offer Restrictive Early Action (REA), where the decisions aren't binding, but there are still restrictions on where else you can apply early. ED can have a huge affect on admission chances (as colleges use it to guarantee yield) but I'm not sure REA provides much of an advantage other than the possibility of getting great news in December.
As for the kid, he's probably going to go with something related to International Relations and Russian. He started teaching himself Russian in 8th grade and selected his high school based on their Russian program. It's provided him with a ton of opportunities, including spending last summer in Kazakhstan (living with host family and attending classes) via the State Department's NSLI-Y program. He's headed to Kyrgyzstan for 3 weeks in March for something similar. I honestly have no idea where the drive came from.
UCLA has a special critical language program that he is enamored with, and he loved Westwood, but he can't see himself saying no to Stanford. I'm not sure his mom would let him either.
scorchy
Footballguy
Funny, he's a total anti-communist. His school is super left-wing, and despite going in as a proud liberal, all the Eat the Rich buttons worn by wealthy white girls have led to a small-but-noticeable turn right (or at least towards the middle).
I can't remember if he applied as an IR major, but regardless, my understanding is that Stanford doesn't want you to select a major until your sophomore year.
He has straight As with rigorous schedule and scored 1500 on his SATs (so still below the Stanford average). His guidance counselor advised test-optional because of that, but thanks to this and other threads, I told him that he should think about reporting because (a) 1500 is still a strong score and (b) in his "privileged" private school demo, colleges probably expect high scores and it may look like he is hiding something otherwise. Happy it worked out, but still recognize how much of it is luck. I would bet it was the teacher rec and essays that turned the tide for him, but it's all still so random. It's just so important to curate a good list while also setting expectations and making sure they realize they'll be fine where ever they end up. Before Stanford said yes, he was getting himself all pumped up for IU Kelley by reading all about Mark Cuban.
Not sure how much of this thread you've read, but it's an absolute gold mine. I know I'm not the only one who thinks it's the most useful thing ever posted on FBG.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Thanks for sharing that stuff, scorch. Crazy times we live in where straight As (at a crazy good school) and a 1500 is on the fence somehow.
I was absent from fbg for a stretch so missed a bunch over the recent months, but otherwise this is one of a handful of threads I read top to bottom. Originally with more of an excitement and joy for the good news from everybody and their kids, and now with one focused on my own kids and their potential paths. (Still mostly for the excitement and joy tbh!)
I was absent from fbg for a stretch so missed a bunch over the recent months, but otherwise this is one of a handful of threads I read top to bottom. Originally with more of an excitement and joy for the good news from everybody and their kids, and now with one focused on my own kids and their potential paths. (Still mostly for the excitement and joy tbh!)
scorchy
Footballguy
If you ever have any questions, feel free to PM. Both bigbottom and The_Man were fountains of knowledge/experience for me, and I'm happy to pay it forward.
Thanks! That’s great news on Stanford!
We are still waiting on a bunch for RD (Stanford, MIT, Berk, UCLA, CMU, WashU, Williams, Amherst, Cornell, Brown, and deferral decisions from USC and GT).
We REA Princeton 🥺.
Yes, we applied to 20 schools, but they were spread over 3 majors since you have to apply to specific STEM programs out of high school and he wants options to decide based on where he is accepted.
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bigbottom
I put on my robe and wizard hat
Holy crap. I thought 10 was a ridiculous amount of work for my kid. But no doubt yours is going to have some hard decisions to make with multiple amazing options!
I’ve got a spreadsheet to keep me organized. He’s not sure between CS, Math, and Engineering.
Unfortunately, you get only 1 choice for most schools so we spread them out (9 for Math, 7 for Engineering, and 4 for CS). If he could have just applied to Michigan for example, and then picked between those 3 majors after acceptance, he would’ve applied to less.
Happy to share strategy for those applying to STEM heavy programs as admittance rates vary drastically from those published depending on the major you apply too.
For example, you’ve got a better chance getting into most Ivy’s than Illinois for CS if you are OOS.
El Floppo
Footballguy
our son is a bit of a stem kid... will definitely be trying to remember this moving forward.
BigJohn
Footballguy
Daughter is a junior, and we are finally starting this search. Overwhelming is an understatement.
She is an IB Diploma candidate with a 4.35 GPA. 12th (out of 625+) in her class.
She is most interested in Psychology and English/Literature.
We are taking a 'dream school' tour on her spring break to Boston U., Brown and NYU.
We will then take some visits to Ohio schools before the summer.
Any and all advice are appreciated. I'll be spending some time perusing this thread.
She is an IB Diploma candidate with a 4.35 GPA. 12th (out of 625+) in her class.
She is most interested in Psychology and English/Literature.
We are taking a 'dream school' tour on her spring break to Boston U., Brown and NYU.
We will then take some visits to Ohio schools before the summer.
Any and all advice are appreciated. I'll be spending some time perusing this thread.
Drunken knight
Footballguy
We also have a junior 3.83; lacrosse; marketing.
Doing our first tour over spring break to San Diego, la(ish), and Santa Barbara
Doing our first tour over spring break to San Diego, la(ish), and Santa Barbara
Sabertooth
Footballguy
My daughter was hoodwinked by our high school to do a year for free at community college and now wants to go to university of Michigan. I hope she gets accepted. 4.1 gpa, 10th in her high school class. Fingers crossed. She’s on the postponed list. Anyone have any experience with that?
Oracle
Footballguy
So a bit of a detour… My daughter has been accepted to the PhD program in chemistry at MIT (and all the other top 10 schools). She called yesterday upset because her class mates/lab partners/professors are treating her differently since she has gotten into the top schools for her degree. At this point she is concerned she is not good enough for those programs, won’t produce for those programs.
I told her that these programs are willing to overpay her based upon cost of living for those locations because she is a hard worker/has proven herself in her lab work and publishment and are hoping that she can continue that. I also said to her that she has worked hard for everything she’s being offered and I’m concerned she’s trying to talk herself out of going for her dreams. What can I tell her to boost her confidence?
I told her that these programs are willing to overpay her based upon cost of living for those locations because she is a hard worker/has proven herself in her lab work and publishment and are hoping that she can continue that. I also said to her that she has worked hard for everything she’s being offered and I’m concerned she’s trying to talk herself out of going for her dreams. What can I tell her to boost her confidence?
Drunken knight
Footballguy
continue what you are doing: reinforce the strengths that resulted in those acceptances. I do not want to jump right into jealousy as being their rationale for the differential treatment, but... if she gets into one- maybe its a fluke, but if she is nailing all of them it is not coincidental. she has earned those accomplishments!
don't let her classmates undermine them
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Look up imposter syndrome. It's a real thing, and particularly affects young women.
She's super smart and driven and shouldn't apologize for her success.
As for grad school, she should select based on the professor she wants to work with and the topics that motivate her. Don't just take the highest ranked school as the fit might not be right. Has she done accepted student visits? The university may (should) pay for that visit and she should take advantage of all those trips to meet the professors and see the facilities and program. The professors will want to talk to her to try and sell her on their program and to get her to do research for them. They know that their next promotion and the quality of the only thing that matters to them (publications) comes from the quality and motivation of their grad students in their lab. This is real recruitment.
bigbottom
I put on my robe and wizard hat
Yeah, ditto this.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Oh and she should absolutely talk to as many students of the professors she is considering as possible. They will tell her the real deal and how the prof motivates the students. Are they shoulder to shoulder with them in the lab? Or aloof and demanding? Do they take credit for the work their students do or do they allow the PhD students to shine on their own?
Oracle
Footballguy
The Z Machine because I couldn’t use quote.
Yes… Her wine and dine tours started a couple of weeks ago and she has about 6 to 8 more schools to visit. She has a spreadsheet where she has ranked the schools based upon reputation//stipend/does it cover cost-of-living/is it a collaborative environment or competitive environment/the professors that she wants to work with (although the professors have called her before she even received the official acceptance to let her know that she was an interest of theirs) and pros and cons (what she likes about the area/what she doesn’t like about the area and all of her concerns) .
I feel she has the bullet points down, but is lacking confidence to make the decision that’s best for her.
ETA…Imposter Syndrome sound exactly like what she is struggling with…
Yes… Her wine and dine tours started a couple of weeks ago and she has about 6 to 8 more schools to visit. She has a spreadsheet where she has ranked the schools based upon reputation//stipend/does it cover cost-of-living/is it a collaborative environment or competitive environment/the professors that she wants to work with (although the professors have called her before she even received the official acceptance to let her know that she was an interest of theirs) and pros and cons (what she likes about the area/what she doesn’t like about the area and all of her concerns) .
I feel she has the bullet points down, but is lacking confidence to make the decision that’s best for her.
ETA…Imposter Syndrome sound exactly like what she is struggling with…
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
As I said, have her focus on the research topics and the personality of the professors whose topics she's interested in. For a PhD in the hard sciences you're selecting a professor and research topic area as much as you are selecting a university. She'll be working with her advisor for the next 4-6 years so that relationship is critical. Once she has a short list, she should ask for descriptions of the upcoming research topics she'd likely work on and the name of at least 1 current PhD student, preferably one that came directly from undergrad and not from industry, and one that has 3 or more years in the program. Then she should set up a phone call with that student to understand the program and professor and what the lab is like. She should ask that student for the name of another student or try to find one on FB or LinkedIn. Getting multiple perspectives about a potential advisor is crucial. Picking a good one that is supportive and not terrible might be the most important aspect of doing a PhD in the hard sciences. The other is staying motivated on the topic area throughout the 4-6 years of work that lie ahead. Lots of life to be had and learned between 22 and 27.
chet
Footballguy
My limited experience with UMich shows that it's a school that deeply cares about yield. Neither of my children applied, but I saw their lesser-qualified classmates get accepted and better candidates get rejected. If there's any indication that UMich is a safety school, expect a rejection. If your daughter really wants to attend, apply early and focus an essay on convincing them she will attend if accepted.
Didn't occur to me at the time, but this seems consistent with my daughter's experience too. Some classmates whose other top acceptances were at the level of Georgia Tech got in, while the kids who were accepted to Ivies did not get in. This is out of state - might differ for those who are in state.
Battersbox
Footballguy
Wow. Some wicked smaht kids (and parents, presumably) around here.
Congrats to all your successes.
Congrats to all your successes.
The_Man
Footballguy
This is unbelievably good advice. From my peripheral professional experience of working in higher ed, I couldn't agree more that finding the right fit with an advisor/supervisor - particularly in the hard sciences, and particularly for a woman - is worth infinitely more than the name of the institution. My only additional suggestion might be to to find someone who recently completed their PhD with the proposed advisor and try to arrange a conversation, as a person no longer working in the advisor's lab might speak a bit more freely than a current student and potential colleague would.
BTW, this is not meant to be scary. While she might find there are people she'll want to avoid, she could also find a person who will be a great advisor during the PhD program and a life-long mentor afterward. There are plenty of people like this.
titusbramble
Footballguy
YMMV, but how easy would it be to transfer within majors within the same school? I did my maths degree in the UK and there was a great deal of flexibility in terms of the first year courses you could take, not only to better cater to personal interests within the subject, but to keep your options open to potential switches to a joint honours degree or potentially an outright transfer. Only half the modules I did in my first year were actually mandatory.
I ask this as quite a number of STEM subjects at this level will require some advanced maths courses, so you will naturally cover a fair bit of what you would normally be doing in the potential destination subject if you start out enrolled in maths, the other way around, not so much, it would be a lot, lot easier to move from maths to CS than the other way around, I think if I wanted to do that I'd just have needed to do one optional programming course to remain eligible to transfer, whereas my housemate the other way around wouldn't have the possibility at all.
This was at a top 25 worldwide university for my subject so not exactly tinpot in terms of learning demands
Oracle
Footballguy
You have been immensely helpful. I have copied your posts and texted them to her. She was very excited to have such a well thought out/helpful advice. Thank you!
At some state schools it is possible to switch majors (math to CS), but top STEM programs have either virtually closed this loophole or actually state on their website transfer into CS is NOT allowed for anyone (UIUC, Berk, are examples). In fact at UIUC you are not even guaranteed to transfer to another engineering program if it’s a “competitive” one.
His LAS schools and Ivy’s it is not a problem bc you don’t declare a major until after year 1.
It’s very odd.
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Interesting. Yes we are in state. Unfortunately when we filled out the FAFSA I had to declare a really high income because I sold off rental properties. I would assume it isn’t great for her propsects. Two other kids who were in her class (one minority and both from single parent lower income families both got full rides). She hung right with those two (all were Top 10 in their class) and seems like she’s being passed over.
Here I am gearing up to pay some big bills and I feel like my income is going to actually hurt her chances of getting in her first choice. Backup is Michigan State.
I don't think that income is generally supposed to impact admission, just financial aid.
You just reminded me of something else that I realized. Since financial aid is based primarily on income during a specific year (for example, aid for 2022-23 college is based on income from 2020), for people who work for a small company that may have flexibility on timing of payments, I wonder if it makes sense to ask them to time payments in a beneficial way. Like if you're making an amount of money that's just over the threshold of what usually gets financial aid (maybe about $150K?), instead of getting paid $150K every year, arrange to get paid $100K and $200K in alternating years, so that you get some aid in two of the years. Not that I'm in a position to do that anymore (employer is way too big), but it doesn't seem as though that would technically be breaking any rules.
You just reminded me of something else that I realized. Since financial aid is based primarily on income during a specific year (for example, aid for 2022-23 college is based on income from 2020), for people who work for a small company that may have flexibility on timing of payments, I wonder if it makes sense to ask them to time payments in a beneficial way. Like if you're making an amount of money that's just over the threshold of what usually gets financial aid (maybe about $150K?), instead of getting paid $150K every year, arrange to get paid $100K and $200K in alternating years, so that you get some aid in two of the years. Not that I'm in a position to do that anymore (employer is way too big), but it doesn't seem as though that would technically be breaking any rules.
Great advice there. I may have missed it, is she looking to stay in Academia or move into industry? Some advisors are better at placing students at one or another. I'm in biotech and we hire a lot of PhDs. Almost always the first stop is talking to professors we have connections with to see if they have students to recommend. I know it works the same with professor placements and connections. Not as important as the fit with the advisor but something to consider.
Lehigh98
Footballguy
We're a bit of a different story than some of the high achievers we have in here (congratulations by the way). My son is currently a junior and pretty good, not exceptional, student on regular honor roll with decent standardized test scores, mediocre extracurriculars (NHS, meh track athlete, chess club, etc). He's generally unmotivated to put in any work above and beyond what's required. He's pretty much assuming college is the next step but not getting excited about looking into options / schools.
We're in PA and visited Penn State, Lehigh (of course), Villanova (mom's school), NC State (excuse to go to Krispy Kreme doughnut challenge), and planning on going to Pitt and Carnegie Mellon over Easter break. We're pretty much planning these out hoping he'll find something he likes and get a little more into the process and at least keep his options open. Right now, his thought is basically, "Penn State is fine, not as expensive as some other schools, I'll probably know kids that go there and I'll probably get in."
I'm torn between trying to push him / get him more into investigating and finding the right school and doing his best to have a good case for merit-based financial aid (unlike me back in the day. we're not going to get any need based) OR me just also saying, "Penn State is fine" and not stressing him out about colleges for the next year +. I recall a story or two where kids worked their asses off and after all that either didn't get into their school of choice or couldn't afford it and questioned, was it all worth it?
I guess I'm just trying to decide if his even keel go-with-the-flow attitude is a blessing or a curse here if he doesn't stress out for a couple years and still ends up at a good enough school. What do you guys think?
We're in PA and visited Penn State, Lehigh (of course), Villanova (mom's school), NC State (excuse to go to Krispy Kreme doughnut challenge), and planning on going to Pitt and Carnegie Mellon over Easter break. We're pretty much planning these out hoping he'll find something he likes and get a little more into the process and at least keep his options open. Right now, his thought is basically, "Penn State is fine, not as expensive as some other schools, I'll probably know kids that go there and I'll probably get in."
I'm torn between trying to push him / get him more into investigating and finding the right school and doing his best to have a good case for merit-based financial aid (unlike me back in the day. we're not going to get any need based) OR me just also saying, "Penn State is fine" and not stressing him out about colleges for the next year +. I recall a story or two where kids worked their asses off and after all that either didn't get into their school of choice or couldn't afford it and questioned, was it all worth it?
I guess I'm just trying to decide if his even keel go-with-the-flow attitude is a blessing or a curse here if he doesn't stress out for a couple years and still ends up at a good enough school. What do you guys think?
Other than Carnegie Mellon, I'd think that none of the schools you listed are too crazy given what you've described.
My general approach is always the same (but with completely different specifics for each kid)...take something that he IS interested in and come up with a plan to:
- Build a set of credentials around that interest, which will help with college applications (schools are generally looking for 'spikey' accomplishments in one area, more than general well-roundedness)
- Learn more about what he does and doesn't like
- Develop some useful skills along the way
So chess is one of the only specific things you mentioned about your son. Some possible avenues for building on that interest would be...
- Begin learning about AI's application to chess and how top players use AI to train themselves. Maybe that leads to trying to program a very simple automated chess bot. Even if it plays barely better than random decision making, it'll give him a sense of whether programming is something that he enjoys, and will give him something interesting to discuss in his college applications.
- Alternately, let's say he's not very mathy and has no interest in AI or programming. Maybe he'd be interested in creating short videos on basic chess strategies and posting them on Youtube or Tiktok. That could then lead to a deep-dive into internet marketing, so that he can get more people watching the videos.
Even just within chess, there are plenty of other paths he could follow...and lots of further things he could try that would build upon the experience he'd get from trying either of those.
Happy to elaborate more, either here or on PM.
Interesting question. No idea, don’t recall it ever being part of any question. My oldest owns his car because his grandfather gave it to him since he helped a lot while grandfather lived with us with cancer before he passed at his home (couldn’t drive anymore). My middle son drives my wife’s/my car but I’m not even bothering with FAFSA for him. App State is where he’s going and it’s pretty inexpensive, relatively speaking. As for insurance, I don’t believe it matters or ever came up.
I don't remember any questions related to cars on FAFSA.
bigbottom
I put on my robe and wizard hat
Does your son know what he is interested in studying? I know that Penn State has an excellent engineering program.
Lehigh98
Footballguy
Poor kid never had a chance. I'm a mechanical engineer and my wife is a chemical engineer. Both my kids are more comfortable in the STEM subjects. We've been doing our best to also have them check out other areas / professions though. My son has been assuming he'd do something engineering related and also enjoys (at least as much or more than other subjects) chemistry so he may be following in my wife's footsteps as a chemical engineer. Another reason why PSU may be a good enough fit.
bigbottom
I put on my robe and wizard hat
Sabertooth: If she gets into Michigan, will she 100% for sure go there, no matter what other schools she gets into?
Sabertooth
Footballguy
She will absolutely. We only visited Michigan and Michigan state. State is the contingency. Michigan is the goal. She’s already been accepted at State but that definitely not her preference.
bigbottom
I put on my robe and wizard hat
That's great! We have a friend whose daughter is graduating from Penn State with an engineering degree this year and has an awesome job already lined up. She really enjoyed her experience there. One note I would raise is that I have no idea what the admissions stats are there, but I do know our friend's daughter had really good numbers and ended up choosing Penn State over Michigan.
bigbottom
I put on my robe and wizard hat
I've mentioned this upthread, and it's not an approach that I necessarily recommend, but it's what my son did. My son had a clear number one choice and it was the last school on the calendar in terms of admission announcements. He'd already heard from all his other schools, but his top choice was still his top choice. Several weeks before the admissions decisions were due to drop, he wrote an email to the admissions contact for his region. In that email, he stated that if he were to be granted admission, he would 100% accept. He included some context about why it was his first choice, but the central message was that he was a guaranteed accept. If yield is a primary consideration for the school, a communication like this could make the difference. I suppose it could also rub someone the wrong way, so I'm not saying it's the necessarily right thing to do.
Good luck; maybe we will have FBGs kids at the same school
. So far, Michigan is his top choice. Still waiting on lots of decisions. I think Brown would be the only definite choice to surpass, but I think he wants to wait until all decisions are in. No super clear #1.Thought about having him send a note to Brown, I have read messages on both sides on the effectiveness of the approach. My feelings are, if it is true and outlines the reasons why it is his #1, that it shouldn't hurt.
The_Man
Footballguy
To be totally blunt, while it certainly won't hurt it almost certainly won't help either. Brown is one of the schools (like most of the ludicrously selective ones) that states it "does not track demonstrated interest." They basically assume that they're one of your top choices - the only way of demonstrating they're your top choice that moves the needle at all is by applying Early Decision. If it makes you feel like you've left nothing undone, then you can send a letter. But it honestly won't make a difference and I wouldn't spend much (or even any) time and effort on it.
STEADYMOBBIN 22
Footballguy
bigbottom
I put on my robe and wizard hat
!!!!!!
