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College Admissions Questions (3 Viewers)

El Floppo said:
other than the superspreader stuff
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Yeah - not really what I was expecting to see 'Cornell University' trending for this week.  On the bright side, her friends who are freshmen there are being quarantined free of charge in a fairly nice hotel and were each given a $500 Uber Eats credit.

 
For reference in future years...the NYU secret trick for knowing early decision results a few days early does apparently work.  It correctly showed which one of my daughter's three friends got in, and which two did not get in.

 
My son got into U of Tennessee and they threw enough money at him to make it less than in-state tuition. We expected him to get in, but seeing the money was a nice surprise  He already has been accepted at Clemson (which is in-state) with scholarships promised, but no idea how much. 

Now we wait until January the rest of his schools (Michigan, Purdue, Florida, Texas, Duke, Vanderbilt)
 

 
The Flying Turtle said:
My son got into U of Tennessee and they threw enough money at him to make it less than in-state tuition. We expected him to get in, but seeing the money was a nice surprise  He already has been accepted at Clemson (which is in-state) with scholarships promised, but no idea how much. 

Now we wait until January the rest of his schools (Michigan, Purdue, Florida, Texas, Duke, Vanderbilt)
 
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awesome!  some great schools to choose from.

 
Hello my fellow old people. My daughter is a junior. She just took the SAT.   She is not planning on going to MiT or anything. I know some of you ended up being testing optional.

My daughter just got her score a 1360 (690 verbal 670 math) on her SATs of all the schools she is applying that puts her above most and at the bottom end of a couple other schools "acceptance ranges".  (1320-1420 for example)

Is it really worth taking again in March to try for a 1400? She is going for engineering as of now

Tia

 
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belljr said:
Hello my fellow old people. My daughter is a junior. She just took the SAT.   She is not planning on going to MiT or anything. I know some of you ended up being testing optional.

My daughter just got her score a 1360 (690 eng. 670 math) on her SATs of all the schools she is applying that puts her above most and at the bottom end of a couple other ranges. (1320-1420 for example)

Is it really worth taking again in March to try for a 1400? She is going for engineering as of now

Tia
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Given the bolded, I would encourage her to do some more prep and take it again in March. 

 
belljr said:
My daughter just got her score a 1360 (690 eng. 670 math) on her SATs of all the schools she is applying that puts her above most and at the bottom end of a couple other ranges.

Is it really worth taking again in March to try for a 1400? She is going for engineering as of now
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Fellow junior parent here.  My thoughts, some of which could be completely off-base given the radically altered admissions landscape:

1) Where does she want to go and how strongly does she feel about it? Lots of good schools where a high GPA plus a 1360 SAT will put you in the running.  But if there's a specific school or two, see #2

2) The rules used to be that if your GPA and scores were above the 75th percentile then you could feel relatively competitive (if not safe).  In the last two cycles, the definition of "safety" seems to be changing quickly.  Still, it's probably not a bad idea - if she has her mind set on a particular school - to shoot for that number if it seems obtainable.

3) Also check to see if the schools super-score.  If she focuses on the math section over the next few months and raises just that section score 40 points (not remotely out of the question) then she's got her 1400.

4) Most importantly, what does she want?  Does she dread taking it again or could she see it as a challenge to work toward?  Will she likely be just as happy at one of the schools with a slightly lower profile?  

 
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belljr said:
Will it be looked down upon if she doesn't take them or does worse?
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She shouldn’t have the scores be automatically sent to the schools to which she is applying. She should only send the scores that she wants to be sent once she’s taken all the tests she’s going to take. At least that was the MO when my son applied a few years back. He took the SAT once and the ACT twice and only submitted scores from one ACT. 

 
bigbottom said:
She shouldn’t have the scores be automatically sent to the schools to which she is applying. She should only send the scores that she wants to be sent once she’s taken all the tests she’s going to take. At least that was the MO when my son applied a few years back. He took the SAT once and the ACT twice and only submitted scores from one ACT. 
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Well we already submitted the scores...... I thought they would just "count" the top scores submitted.  I need to go reread some crap

 
scorchy said:
Fellow junior parent here.  My thoughts, some of which could be completely off-base given the radically altered admissions landscape:

1) Where does she want to go and how strongly does she feel about it? Lots of good schools where a high GPA plus a 1360 SAT will put you in the running.  But if there's a specific school or two, see #2

2) The rules used to be that if your GPA and scores were above the 75th percentile then you could feel relatively competitive (if not safe).  In the last two cycles, the definition of "safety" seems to be changing quickly.  Still, it's probably not a bad idea - if she has her mind set on a particular school - to shoot for that number if it seems obtainable.

3) Also check to see if the schools super-score.  If she focuses on the math section over the next few months and raises just that section score 40 points (not remotely out of the question) then she's got her 1400.

4) Most importantly, what does she want?  Does she dread taking it again or could she see it as a challenge to work toward?  Will she likely be just as happy at one of the schools with a slightly lower profile?  
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1) She has some schools in mind for softball reasons

3) what is super score?

4) probably doesnt want to take it again.  If she is playing softball she will be happy

 
Some of this was touched upon by others, but thoughts on SATs:

Almost definitely worth taking multiple times, even if they don't practice in between.  There's a certain amount of luck/variance in scores, so for a low fee they get a multiple chances to roll the dice.  That said, practice does help.  As stated in other posts, don't submit SATs until they're sure they're done, and only submit the best score or the scores that would result in the best super score.

Depends on the school, but I did some back of napkin math (maybe posted sometime last year in this thread?) and it basically looks like you should generally only submit at test optional schools if you're at or above their median accepted SAT.  A few schools (I think Vanderbilt was one) seem to have similar acceptance rates for those who submit and don't submit.  This is incredibly bad work by the school, as those who submit almost certainly average far higher scores and presumably are generally much stronger students on average...and yet are being accepted at the same rate as the general weaker non-submitters.  So if you can find the stats on acceptance rates of both groups and they're anywhere near each other, then I'd suggest only submitting if you're at the extreme high end of their range.

 
belljr said:
3) what is super score?
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You get 700 math, 600 verbal in March.

You get 600 math, 700 verbal in May.

Your score is 1300 each time.

Your super score is 1400 (700 math, 700 verbal) - basically just counts the highest score submitted in each section.

 
zoobird said:
You get 700 math, 600 verbal in March.

You get 600 math, 700 verbal in May.

Your score is 1300 each time.

Your super score is 1400 (700 math, 700 verbal) - basically just counts the highest score submitted in each section.
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So do I just submit all the scores or do I wait until March and pick and choose?

Sorry the info I read seems confusing on this

 
belljr said:
So do I just submit all the scores or do I wait until March and pick and choose?

Sorry the info I read seems confusing on this
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Better to wait until all tests are completed before submitting.  Plus, most kids don't finalize the list of which schools they'll apply to until shortly before working on applications, so they don't know where to submit scores anyway.

 
PS Probably little or no harm done if you already submitted one set of scores to a few schools, so I wouldn't worry about that.

 
zoobird said:
Better to wait until all tests are completed before submitting.  Plus, most kids don't finalize the list of which schools they'll apply to until shortly before working on applications, so they don't know where to submit scores anyway.
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Normally I agree with this - but we are focused on schools she will be able to play softball at.  A couple have reached out and a couple we are going to winter camps and hoping to get noticed

 
Ah, 'tis the season... My daughter is applying to 7 schools, although, I don't think the applications are quite finalized for three of them at this point.  2 acceptances so far.  Below is the order of what I think is her current preference ranking is.  We have not physically visited Northwestern or Rose-Hulman yet.  

Case Western Reserve

The Ohio State ✔️

Lehigh

Purdue

Northwestern

Rose-Hulman  ✔️

Carnegie Melon

She is looking for electrical engineering.  Dad's choice (with pocketbook in mind) is Ohio State, or Purdue where brother is.  These private schools are great places, but even with expected scholarships, the price tags are tough to swallow. 

 
belljr said:
Normally I agree with this - but we are focused on schools she will be able to play softball at.  A couple have reached out and a couple we are going to winter camps and hoping to get noticed
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I know sending folks over to the forums at College Confidential is iffy advice in general, but there are several posts that explain how recruiting fits into admission.  Parents who have been through the process will have great insight on timelines and pre-reads and the like.  

Especially given that right now is when lots of Early Decision notifications are coming out, don't read the poison about all these amazing kids getting rejected everywhere despite their 4.9 GPAs and perfect SATs.  If you spend too much time there, you'll be convinced your kid won't get in anywhere.

 
scorchy said:
I know sending folks over to the forums at College Confidential is iffy advice in general, but there are several posts that explain how recruiting fits into admission.  Parents who have been through the process will have great insight on timelines and pre-reads and the like.  

Especially given that right now is when lots of Early Decision notifications are coming out, don't read the poison about all these amazing kids getting rejected everywhere despite their 4.9 GPAs and perfect SATs.  If you spend too much time there, you'll be convinced your kid won't get in anywhere.
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Lol...yeah we still have time obviously but it's getting closer

 
belljr said:
Hello my fellow old people. My daughter is a junior. She just took the SAT.   She is not planning on going to MiT or anything. I know some of you ended up being testing optional.

My daughter just got her score a 1360 (690 verbal 670 math) on her SATs of all the schools she is applying that puts her above most and at the bottom end of a couple other schools "acceptance ranges".  (1320-1420 for example)

Is it really worth taking again in March to try for a 1400? She is going for engineering as of now

Tia
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I know you said Stevens was an option. They will place a lot of weight on SAT math for sure if she applies for an engineering program. If they want her for softball, that will help, but no harm in trying to up the math, it could even get you more merit. I graduated from there and happy to answer any questions about the school.  

 
Gamma1210 said:
I know you said Stevens was an option. They will place a lot of weight on SAT math for sure if she applies for an engineering program. If they want her for softball, that will help, but no harm in trying to up the math, it could even get you more merit. I graduated from there and happy to answer any questions about the school.  
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Saw that she meets the 50% range total but math is 690 or 700.   Unless we get a ton of money it's definitely a reach for us financially anyway

 
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Galileo said:
Ah, 'tis the season... My daughter is applying to 7 schools, although, I don't think the applications are quite finalized for three of them at this point.  2 acceptances so far.  Below is the order of what I think is her current preference ranking is.  We have not physically visited Northwestern or Rose-Hulman yet.  

Case Western Reserve ✔️

The Ohio State ✔️

Lehigh

Purdue

Northwestern

Rose-Hulman  ✔️

Carnegie Melon

She is looking for electrical engineering.  Dad's choice (with pocketbook in mind) is Ohio State, or Purdue where brother is.  These private schools are great places, but even with expected scholarships, the price tags are tough to swallow. 
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Accepted at Case Western with a nice scholarship, $31,500 per year, but still not sure we can afford it.  :unsure:

 
belljr said:
Not directed at me, I know we are personally trying to avoid it
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That’s nice. I’m trying to as well but my plan is to get the minimum loans from FAFSA process and put that on my boys. Doesn’t mean I can’t help if things are great but it’s a little skin in the game and there is a back of my mind thought that maybe there will be some loan forgiveness. I’d be pissed to see us miss that. Also, it’s about $20k for 4 years so not something I consider cumbersome compared to some of the crazy loan amounts you hear about. We’ll see how it goes.

 
stbugs said:
That’s nice. I’m trying to as well but my plan is to get the minimum loans from FAFSA process and put that on my boys. Doesn’t mean I can’t help if things are great but it’s a little skin in the game and there is a back of my mind thought that maybe there will be some loan forgiveness. I’d be pissed to see us miss that. Also, it’s about $20k for 4 years so not something I consider cumbersome compared to some of the crazy loan amounts you hear about. We’ll see how it goes.
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I should have been more thorough with my post.  This is exactly what I did for my son.

We had him take out the maximum amount of Fed (Stafford)loans he could.  When he went I think it was something like 6500 freshman year, then escalated each year and I think capped at like 8500.   So he had actually 5 years of loans.  That totaled i don't know ~30k?   So we worked it where during his co-op he paid for his room and board and we paid down the loans.  It was the only way he really could afford going to the college he went too.   We told him listen - you will have to pay these loans when you start working.  He didn't know I started paying the loans early so by the time he graduated they were paid off and that was our "gift"

I don't know if the amounts are the same since that was like 6 years ago, My daughter we are considering "technically lesser schools academically" so she can have no loans.   In the end I I don't think the schools we are looking at her degree "will matter more" from one school to the other (based on schools we are looking at).

Luckily we have about 50k saved so that should get a year - and hopefully part of a second year paid 

 
stbugs said:
That’s nice. I’m trying to as well but my plan is to get the minimum loans from FAFSA process and put that on my boys. Doesn’t mean I can’t help if things are great but it’s a little skin in the game and there is a back of my mind thought that maybe there will be some loan forgiveness. I’d be pissed to see us miss that. Also, it’s about $20k for 4 years so not something I consider cumbersome compared to some of the crazy loan amounts you hear about. We’ll see how it goes.
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Prepare to be shocked, the extremes get the headlines but aren't a good representation of reality. Most undergrads graduate with debt in this range. The outliers that generate headlines are from those that chose a school outside of their means a/o grad school + obtained an occupation unable to repay those costs a/o are banking on loan forgiveness bailing them out in the future. Now, should the average student graduate with $20-30K in student loan debt? I think that's a much more interesting topic, but isn't one that engages our populace.

 
belljr said:
I should have been more thorough with my post.  This is exactly what I did for my son.

We had him take out the maximum amount of Fed (Stafford)loans he could.  When he went I think it was something like 6500 freshman year, then escalated each year and I think capped at like 8500.   So he had actually 5 years of loans.  That totaled i don't know ~30k?   So we worked it where during his co-op he paid for his room and board and we paid down the loans.  It was the only way he really could afford going to the college he went too.   We told him listen - you will have to pay these loans when you start working.  He didn't know I started paying the loans early so by the time he graduated they were paid off and that was our "gift"

I don't know if the amounts are the same since that was like 6 years ago, My daughter we are considering "technically lesser schools academically" so she can have no loans.   In the end I I don't think the schools we are looking at her degree "will matter more" from one school to the other (based on schools we are looking at).

Luckily we have about 50k saved so that should get a year - and hopefully part of a second year paid 
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This is virtually the exact situation we are in for my daughter. She didn't even apply to certain 'reach' schools because we think it's likely she'll be an education major and wind up teaching at the high school level.

 
Battersbox said:
This is virtually the exact situation we are in for my daughter. She didn't even apply to certain 'reach' schools because we think it's likely she'll be an education major and wind up teaching at the high school level.
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My daughters looking to do engineering - and shes not going to MiT - so while I know certain schools around here have better programs - if she goes to a "lesser school" gets her masters and co-ops I'm not overly worried about it tbh,,,

I went to one of these "lesser" schools and work with people from the "better schools" just fine :)

 
belljr said:
My daughters looking to do engineering - and shes not going to MiT - so while I know certain schools around here have better programs - if she goes to a "lesser school" gets her masters and co-ops I'm not overly worried about it tbh,,,

I went to one of these "lesser" schools and work with people from the "better schools" just fine :)
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Unsolicited advice, but what kind of engineering? Engineering is one of those majors where school can really matter for getting the first job. Long term its about how you perform, but getting your foot in the door with either the school name, connections from professors, etc can make things a lot easier initially. 

 
I like the "skin in the game" position, but my wife does not.  Ultimately, we did not go that direction with my son in his first year at Purdue, so we will try to do the same with our daughter.  Purdue offers a pretty good value for out of state tuition, considerably less than the private schools on my daughter's list.  We can take on the Ohio State expense without much burden, but as much as I like Ohio State, the school size, atmosphere, and proximity to home of CWRU I think are all better fits for my daughter.

Just out of curiosity, @belljr what are you considering to be a "lesser school"?

@Gamma1210 Are you in an engineering career?

 
Galileo said:
I like the "skin in the game" position, but my wife does not.  Ultimately, we did not go that direction with my son in his first year at Purdue, so we will try to do the same with our daughter.  Purdue offers a pretty good value for out of state tuition, considerably less than the private schools on my daughter's list.  We can take on the Ohio State expense without much burden, but as much as I like Ohio State, the school size, atmosphere, and proximity to home of CWRU I think are all better fits for my daughter.

Just out of curiosity, @belljr what are you considering to be a "lesser school"?

@Gamma1210 Are you in an engineering career?
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We are staying local. My son has an engineering degree from a very good engineering school. So based on rankings and ratings and size, they are considered "not as good" on paper 

Eta: mechanical engineering 

@Gamma1210

 
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Our daughters are each looking at a different spectrum of schools.  Older daughter is looking at "decent" colleges, but not top-tier.  Younger daughter is looking at top-tier schools (but only a sophomore).

So, we are getting a lot of information from a broad swath of schools, and one of the things that really kind of stood out to me - the "elite" school seem to make a bigger commitment to loan-free education than the "normal" colleges.  Obviously those schools have bigger endowments and can afford to make that kind of commitment - but it seems a little backwards, from an economic standpoint.  The average starting salary coming out of an elite school is already higher than a typical college, and you come out with less debt.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Our daughters are each looking at a different spectrum of schools.  Older daughter is looking at "decent" colleges, but not top-tier.  Younger daughter is looking at top-tier schools (but only a sophomore).

So, we are getting a lot of information from a broad swath of schools, and one of the things that really kind of stood out to me - the "elite" school seem to make a bigger commitment to loan-free education than the "normal" colleges.  Obviously those schools have bigger endowments and can afford to make that kind of commitment - but it seems a little backwards, from an economic standpoint.  The average starting salary coming out of an elite school is already higher than a typical college, and you come out with less debt.
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This article does a good job of explaining some of that.

 
Maybe someone here will get some value out of this.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/18/your-money/paying-for-college/early-decision-binding-nyu.html

Early Decision Isn’t Binding. Let Us Explain.

If you can’t afford the price a college quotes you, you don’t have to go. We corrected an N.Y.U. blog post and rewrote the Common App for you.

Early decision acceptance notices have just gone out from many highly rejective — they prefer “selective” — colleges, which means a lot of families are now trying to figure out how they’re going to make it work financially.

Here’s a news flash: These supposedly binding offers do not, in fact, oblige you to attend. If you can’t afford to go at the price that the college has asked you to pay, you can back out.

This seems to bear more than a little repeating, because people in positions of authority don’t always know the facts. And even the folks who should know best can sow confusion about what are highly emotional, six-figure decisions that families must make.

Who gets it wrong? I’m glad you asked.

This week, I happened upon a since-deleted blog post by an associate director of admissions at New York University. The post, which had an October 2021 date next to it on the school’s admissions office website, purported to correct early decision “myths” — and included a lot of bogus info.

The post said that if you break an early decision agreement, you can’t apply to a different school.

This could not be more wrong.

You can apply anywhere you want once you break an early decision agreement. You’re supposed to withdraw applications elsewhere and not send out others only if you accept an early decision offer.

Image

After being contacted by The New York Times, New York University took down a blog post with misleading claims about early decision.Credit...New York University

After I asked about it, N.Y.U. took down the post, which appeared high up in search results for “N.Y.U. early decision.” John Beckman, a university spokesman, said in an email that the post hadn’t gone through the normal vetting process — although the problems should have been caught anyway, he said.

“There’s quite a lot wrong with this,” he wrote.

N.Y.U. isn’t the only school providing incorrect or opaque information about early decision. Some say they’ll work with you if your aid offer is insufficient but aren’t clear that you can walk away. Others compose their early decision websites without ever acknowledging that any such thing could happen or that it might be worthy of a Q in an F.A.Q.

But N.Y.U.’s post was a glaring example. Consider what was under the heading “Myth: I Don’t Need to Abide by the Early Decision Agreement.”

There was this admonishing passage about applying through early decision: “Your parent or guardian as well as your college counselor also sign the agreement when you apply E.D. Your actions are the collective responsibility and a reflection of these people.”

Mark Salisbury, for one, was outraged by this. He runs TuitionFit, a website where people can share their financial aid offers and see what others like them got, which means he talks to a lot of high school counselors.

By invoking this “responsibility,” he said, the post was reinforcing the idea that counselors should be an enforcement arm of college admissions offices. “When that signature is asked of them, that threat, it’s like, ‘Who is my loyalty to?’” said Mr. Salisbury, the former director of the institutional research office at Augustana College in Illinois. “It’s right there front and center.”

The threat that he’s talking about gets to a fear that families and many counselors often cite: If a student breaks an early decision agreement, the college may hold it against future applicants from that high school.

Mr. Beckman, the N.Y.U. spokesman, wants you to know that the school would never do that. “We’re not looking for college counselors to act as some kind of enforcer to strong arm students into accepting our offer of admission,” he wrote. “And we’re certainly not out to punish schools, counselors or applicants.”

The post went on to imply that the Common Application — the third-party manager of applications for lots of colleges — could tattle to other schools if an applicant broke an early decision agreement. That, the post said, could keep you out of those other schools.

Common App wasn’t happy about this. “The blog post is inaccurate and we have asked N.Y.U. to correct it,” a spokeswoman for Common App said in a statement. “We do NOT know college or student decisions, let alone share them with anyone.”

If only Common App extended that kind of clarity to all its communications. Some of the guidance it offers is also problematic.

Consider this line from its early decision agreement: “If the student is an early decision candidate and is seeking financial aid, the student need not withdraw other applications until the student has received notification about financial aid from the admitting early decision institution.”

Read that a few times and ask yourself this: What is the next step once that financial aid notification arrives?

Must students withdraw other applications, whether the aid offer makes the school affordable or not? Or are they free to break the early decision agreement if the aid is not enough? The agreement doesn’t say.

In my first exchange with the Common App spokeswoman, Emma Steele, she wrote, “The understood definition within the admissions field is that early decision is a binding agreement between the student and the admitting institution.”

Understood by whom, I asked. After all, the most prominent entity in the field — the National Association for College Admission Counseling — offers up crystal clear language that schools can (and do) use in their early decision agreements: “Should a student who applies for financial aid not be offered an award that makes attendance possible, the student may decline the offer of admission and be released from the early decision commitment.”

Why doesn’t the Common App just say that?

“We’ve reviewed as a team and agree with your point that it could be worded more clearly, so we’ll be discussing internally about how to make edits for future application cycles,” Ms. Steele said in an email. (My request to talk this out over the phone was not successful.)

So how best to proceed, given that early decision isn’t going away?

I consulted Angel B. Pérez, the chief executive of the admission counseling association, who previously oversaw the enrollment operation at Trinity College in Hartford, Conn. Together, we came up with some points students and parents should consider.

If you’re in the thick of it now, with acceptance letter in hand but a troubling financial aid offer, consider two things.

First, and most importantly, you must do what is right for you — and only for you. But there is a right way to ask for more money (or walk away): assume a demeanor of humble inquiry, not entitlement.

If things don’t improve, go with grace. Wish everyone well and explain, in detail, to your high school counselor what has happened and why and how seriously you took the matter before pushing the eject button. People in those roles have long-term relationships to preserve with colleges, for the benefit of future students.

What if you’re thinking about applying early decision in the future?

First, use schools’ net price calculators before applying to see what kind of aid they estimate that you will get if you get in. If the actual offer matches and your family circumstances haven’t changed since applying, it isn’t ethical to walk away because of the price. After all, you were warned.

With these estimates in mind, interrogate the feelings that emerge. Here, it’s worth considering a frustration that many admissions and financial aid professionals have shared with me over the years: Families may complain about their ability to pay when what is really at issue is their willingness to do so.

That makes it all the more important that children and parents be on the same page about the tuition budget. Kids deserve to know well ahead of time — like as early as eighth grade — that they may not be able to go to their dream school under certain financial circumstances, even if they get in early.

This is a lot to think about. And that is precisely the reason that N.Y.U., the Common App and so many other professionals involved with the early decision process should speak accurately and plainly about the rules of engagement.

If you have to back out of an early decision agreement because you can’t pay the bill, you should. I won’t judge you, and nobody else should either.

If enough people start walking, perhaps this entire system will fold in on itself.
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stbugs said:
That’s nice. I’m trying to as well but my plan is to get the minimum loans from FAFSA process and put that on my boys. Doesn’t mean I can’t help if things are great but it’s a little skin in the game 
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I have 2 in college and did something similar but the agreement was anything less than a 3.0 for the semester and the loan is  their responsibility. 
So far it’s working out for all of us as they are getting good grades and not following in my slack ### footsteps. 
 

 
Well, older daughter went 4-4 in acceptances.  She is blossoming before my very eyes!  Now comes the hard part - figuring out the right fit, and the finances.

In theory, we are ok with any of the choices, but a couple make more sense, both fit and financially.  

 
Sinn Fein said:
Well, older daughter went 4-4 in acceptances.  She is blossoming before my very eyes!  Now comes the hard part - figuring out the right fit, and the finances.

In theory, we are ok with any of the choices, but a couple make more sense, both fit and financially.  
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that's fantastic news! Congrats, gb!

 
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Big Idea And A Brand New Footballguys Tool - The Assistant Coach
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Mr.Pack
Mr.Pack

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