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Columbine - 10 years later (1 Viewer)

Mario Kart

Footballguy
They weren't goths or loners.The two teenagers who killed 13 people and themselves at suburban Denver's Columbine High School 10 years ago next week weren't in the "Trenchcoat Mafia," disaffected videogamers who wore cowboy dusters. The killings ignited a national debate over bullying, but the record now shows Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold hadn't been bullied — in fact, they had bragged in diaries about picking on freshmen and "####."Their rampage put schools on alert for "enemies lists" made by troubled students, but the enemies on their list had graduated from Columbine a year earlier. Contrary to early reports, Harris and Klebold weren't on antidepressant medication and didn't target jocks, blacks or Christians, police now say, citing the killers' journals and witness accounts. That story about a student being shot in the head after she said she believed in God? Never happened, the FBI says now.A decade after Harris and Klebold made Columbine a synonym for rage, new information — including several books that analyze the tragedy through diaries, e-mails, appointment books, videotape, police affidavits and interviews with witnesses, friends and survivors — indicate that much of what the public has been told about the shootings is wrong.In fact, the pair's suicidal attack was planned as a grand — if badly implemented — terrorist bombing that quickly devolved into a 49-minute shooting rampage when the bombs Harris built fizzled."He was so bad at wiring those bombs, apparently they weren't even close to working," says Dave Cullen, author of Columbine, a new account of the attack.So whom did they hope to kill?Everyone — including friends.What's left, after peeling away a decade of myths, is perhaps more comforting than the "good kids harassed into retaliation" narrative — or perhaps not.It's a portrait of Harris and Klebold as a sort of In Cold Blood criminal duo — a deeply disturbed, suicidal pair who over more than a year psyched each other up for an Oklahoma City-style terrorist bombing, an apolitical, over-the-top revenge fantasy against years of snubs, slights and cruelties, real and imagined.Along the way, they saved money from after-school jobs, took Advanced Placement classes, assembled a small arsenal and fooled everyone — friends, parents, teachers, psychologists, cops and judges."These are not ordinary kids who were bullied into retaliation," psychologist Peter Langman writes in his new book, Why Kids Kill: Inside the Minds of School Shooters. "These are not ordinary kids who played too many video games. These are not ordinary kids who just wanted to be famous. These are simply not ordinary kids. These are kids with serious psychological problems."Deceiving the adultsHarris, who conceived the attacks, was more than just troubled. He was, psychologists now say, a cold-blooded, predatory psychopath — a smart, charming liar with "a preposterously grand superiority complex, a revulsion for authority and an excruciating need for control," Cullen writes.Harris, a senior, read voraciously and got good grades when he tried, pleasing his teachers with dazzling prose — then writing in his journal about killing thousands."I referred to him — and I'm dating myself — as the Eddie Haskel of Columbine High School," says Principal Frank DeAngelis, referring to the deceptively polite teen on the 1950s and '60s sitcom Leave it to Beaver. "He was the type of kid who, when he was in front of adults, he'd tell you what you wanted to hear."When he wasn't, he mixed napalm in the kitchen .According to Cullen, one of Harris' last journal entries read: "I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't … say, 'Well that's your fault,' because it isn't, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. No no no don't let the weird-looking Eric KID come along."As he walked into the school the morning of April 20, Harris' T-shirt read: Natural Selection.Klebold, on the other hand, was anxious and lovelorn, summing up his life at one point in his journal as "the most miserable existence in the history of time," Langman notes.Harris drew swastikas in his journal; Klebold drew hearts.As laid out in their writings, the contrast between the two was stark.Harris seemed to feel superior to everyone — he once wrote, "I feel like God and I wish I was, having everyone being OFFICIALLY lower than me" — while Klebold was suicidally depressed and getting angrier all the time. "Me is a god, a god of sadness," he wrote in September 1997, around his 16th birthday.Klebold also was paranoid. "I have always been hated, by everyone and everything," he wrote.On the day of the attacks, his T-shirt read: Wrath.Shooter profiles emergeColumbine wasn't the first K-12 school shooting. But at the time it was by far the worst, and the first to play out largely on live television.The U.S. Secret Service and U.S. Education Department soon began studying school shooters. In 2002, researchers presented their first findings: School shooters, they said, followed no set profile, but most were depressed and felt persecuted.Princeton sociologist Katherine Newman, co-author of the 2004 book Rampage: The Social Roots of School Shootings, says young people such as Harris and Klebold are not loners — they're just not accepted by the kids who count. "Getting attention by becoming notorious is better than being a failure."The Secret Service found that school shooters usually tell other kids about their plans."Other students often even egg them on," says Newman, who led a congressionally mandated study on school shootings. "Then they end up with this escalating commitment. It's not a sudden snapping."Langman, whose book profiles 10 shooters, including Harris and Klebold, found that nine suffered from depression and suicidal thoughts, a "potentially dangerous" combination, he says. "It is hard to prevent murder when killers do not care if they live or die. It is like trying to stop a suicide bomber."At the time, Columbine became a kind of giant national Rorschach test. Observers saw its genesis in just about everything: lax parenting, lax gun laws, progressive schooling, repressive school culture, violent video games, antidepressant drugs and rock 'n' roll, for starters.Many of the Columbine myths emerged before the shooting stopped, as rumors, misunderstandings and wishful thinking swirled in an echo chamber among witnesses, survivors, officials and the news media.Police contributed to the mess by talking to reporters before they knew facts — a hastily called news conference by the Jefferson County sheriff that afternoon produced the first headline: "Twenty-five dead in Colorado."A few inaccuracies took hours to clear up, but others took weeks or months — sometimes years — as authorities reluctantly set the record straight.Former Rocky Mountain News reporter Jeff Kass, author of a new book, Columbine: A True Crime Story, says police played a game of "Open Records charades."In one case, county officials took five years just to acknowledge that they had met in secret after the attacks to discuss a 1998 affidavit for a search warrant on Harris' home — it was the result of a complaint against him by the mother of a former friend. Harris had threatened her son on his website and bragged that he had been building bombs.Police already had found a small bomb matching Harris' description near his home — but investigators never presented the affidavit to a judge.They also apparently didn't know that Harris and Klebold were on probation after having been arrested in January 1998 for breaking into a van and stealing electronics.The search finally took place, but only after the shootings.Meticulous planningWhat's now beyond dispute — largely from the killers' journals, which have been released over the past few years, is this: Harris and Klebold killed 13 and wounded 24, but they had hoped to kill thousands.The pair planned the attacks for more than a year, building 100 bombs and persuading friends to buy them guns. Just after 11 a.m. on April 20, they lugged a pair of duffel bags containing propane-tank bombs into Columbine's crowded cafeteria and another into the kitchen, then stepped outside and waited.Had the bombs exploded, they'd have killed virtually everyone eating lunch and brought the school's second-story library down atop the cafeteria, police say. Armed with a pistol, a rifle and two sawed-off shotguns, the pair planned to pick off survivors fleeing the carnage.As a last terrorist act, a pair of gasoline bombs planted in Harris' Honda and Klebold's BMW had been rigged apparently to kill police, rescue teams, journalists and parents who rushed to the school — long after the pair expected they would be dead.The pair had parked the cars about 100 yards apart in the student lot. The bombs didn't go off.Looking for answers at homeSince 1999, many people have looked to the boys' parents for answers, but a transcript of their 2003 court-ordered deposition to the victims' parents remains sealed until 2027.The Klebolds spoke to New York Times columnist David Brooks in 2004 and impressed Brooks as "a well-educated, reflective, highly intelligent couple" who spent plenty of time with their son. They said they had no clues about Dylan's mental state and regretted not seeing that he was suicidal.Could the parents have prevented the massacre? The FBI special agent in charge of the investigation has gone on record as having "the utmost sympathy" for the Harris and Klebold families."They have been vilified without information," retired supervisory special agent Dwayne Fuselier tells Cullen.Cullen, who has spent most of the past decade poring over the record, comes away with a bit of sympathy.For one thing, he notes, Harris' parents "knew they had a problem — they thought they were dealing with it. What kind of parent is going to think, 'Well, maybe Eric's a mass murderer.' You just don't go there."He got a good look at the boys' writings only in the past couple of years. Among the revelations: Eric Harris was financing what could well have been the biggest domestic terrorist attack on U.S. soil on wages from a part-time job at a pizza parlor."One of the scary things is that money was one of the limiting factors here," Cullen says.Had Harris, then 18, put off the attacks for a few years and landed a well-paying job, he says, "he could be much more like Tim McVeigh," mixing fertilizer bombs like those used in Oklahoma City in 1995. As it was, he says, the fact that Harris carried out the attack when he did probably saved hundreds of lives."His limited salary probably limited the number of people who died."Contributing: Marilyn Elias, USA TODAY
-----------------I remember where I was when I saw this happening. Now, with the above information, I cannot fathom how many people or how much money was spent wrongly because of misinformation. The last few lines are stunning to me as well. If these kids had patience, we could have been in for a world of hurt especially if they had waited after 9/11. That would have been one hell of a time for our country. Thank you Harris and Klebold for failing.
 
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Definitely changed my view of the two. I had always thought it was a revenge/social outcast kind of thing. That doesn't appear to be the case at all.

 
They weren't goths or loners.[snip]one of Harris' last journal entries read: "I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't … say, 'Well that's your fault,' because it isn't, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. No no no don't let the weird-looking Eric KID come along."
Yeah, not a loner.
 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :thumbup:

 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :confused:
It seems like the article attempts to make distinction between "bullied" and "picked on", as well as a distinction between "loner" and "outcast".It's a pretty blurry distinction if you ask me. Maybe they weren't daily targets of bullying, but it's pretty obvious that they had been shunned by the cool kids.
 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :confused:
On a serious note, there is not a school in America where that stuff doesnt go on. My friends and I were brutal to some other people to the point that I thought about writing a letter to a girl we just destroyed. She had a messed up nose for some reason and we gave her all sorts of grief on it. She came back for her senior year with a nose job and we made fun of her for getting a nose job. Yeah we were a holes and I feel really bad about it to this day. But my point is this goes on everywhere and these kids were just messed up. Plenty of other options of getting back at someone without you know shooting them with a shotgun.
 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :confused:
It seems like the article attempts to make distinction between "bullied" and "picked on", as well as a distinction between "loner" and "outcast".It's a pretty blurry distinction if you ask me. Maybe they weren't daily targets of bullying, but it's pretty obvious that they had been shunned by the cool kids.
Well from what this kid told I have no bout they were bullied daily. But it also seems they enticed the bullies. He said they would go out of their way to act weird, like sitting in the hallway with their ding dong's hanging out. They tried the shock and awe approach, knowing full well they were outcasts, and in so doing intentionally drew negative attention to themselves.
 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :confused:
On a serious note, there is not a school in America where that stuff doesnt go on. My friends and I were brutal to some other people to the point that I thought about writing a letter to a girl we just destroyed. She had a messed up nose for some reason and we gave her all sorts of grief on it. She came back for her senior year with a nose job and we made fun of her for getting a nose job. Yeah we were a holes and I feel really bad about it to this day. But my point is this goes on everywhere and these kids were just messed up. Plenty of other options of getting back at someone without you know shooting them with a shotgun.

No doubt about it. I just wanted to give a firsthand confession from someone who at least contradicts some of what was said in that article.

 
I was watching a video of the cafeteria camera that had a 911 clip of Harris' dad calling in. He heard "Trenchcoat Mafia" and suspected his son might be involved. Kind of weird that he would have no involvement with some group, yet his dad is convinced of it to the extent that he calls 911.

 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :excited:
On a serious note, there is not a school in America where that stuff doesnt go on. My friends and I were brutal to some other people to the point that I thought about writing a letter to a girl we just destroyed. She had a messed up nose for some reason and we gave her all sorts of grief on it. She came back for her senior year with a nose job and we made fun of her for getting a nose job. Yeah we were a holes and I feel really bad about it to this day. But my point is this goes on everywhere and these kids were just messed up. Plenty of other options of getting back at someone without you know shooting them with a shotgun.

No doubt about it. I just wanted to give a firsthand confession from someone who at least contradicts some of what was said in that article.
We had "goths" at our high school and they seemed to take the blunt of the crap talking etc. All groups would victimized them. They were the lowest on the totem pole. There was one hot hot goth girl and nobody could figure out what made her tick.
 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :excited:
And in what school in America don't the Jocks do this? I was under the impression that these two were absolute pariahs, no friends other than each other. There were a few kids like that in my school that had no social group of any kind to hang out with...complete loaners that ALL the cliques picked on mercilessly. That's the type of kid I thought these two were.
 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :excited:
On a serious note, there is not a school in America where that stuff doesnt go on. My friends and I were brutal to some other people to the point that I thought about writing a letter to a girl we just destroyed. She had a messed up nose for some reason and we gave her all sorts of grief on it. She came back for her senior year with a nose job and we made fun of her for getting a nose job. Yeah we were a holes and I feel really bad about it to this day. But my point is this goes on everywhere and these kids were just messed up. Plenty of other options of getting back at someone without you know shooting them with a shotgun.

No doubt about it. I just wanted to give a firsthand confession from someone who at least contradicts some of what was said in that article.
We had "goths" at our high school and they seemed to take the blunt of the crap talking etc. All groups would victimized them. They were the lowest on the totem pole. There was one hot hot goth girl and nobody could figure out what made her tick.
Yeah, goths at our school were treated pretty badly. They used to hang out on a grassy knoll a block away from our school, and one day a group of jocks went over to their turf and started a fight. It was shortlived, but the next day this same group of jocks returned, this time one of them had a baseball bat while one of the goths had a chain. Kids are cruel. FWIW, my high school was/is Columbine's rival, is just ten minutes away, and this all went on right around the time of the shootings.
 
I was watching a video of the cafeteria camera that had a 911 clip of Harris' dad calling in. He heard "Trenchcoat Mafia" and suspected his son might be involved. Kind of weird that he would have no involvement with some group, yet his dad is convinced of it to the extent that he calls 911.
From what I've read about the case directly from the documents that have been released over the past few years, there was such a thing as "Trenchcoat Mafia" but it was kids that had already graduated prior to the shootings (and the shooters didn't appear in a yearbook photo of the group). These kids appeared to have tried to adopt the name but were not part of the group. The dad might have known that they admired the group or heard the kid mention its name.
 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :excited:
And in what school in America don't the Jocks do this?

I was under the impression that these two were absolute pariahs, no friends other than each other. There were a few kids like that in my school that had no social group of any kind to hang out with...complete loaners that ALL the cliques picked on mercilessly. That's the type of kid I thought these two were.
How should I know. I don't see what this has to do with the discussion in any case.
 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :excited:
On a serious note, there is not a school in America where that stuff doesnt go on. My friends and I were brutal to some other people to the point that I thought about writing a letter to a girl we just destroyed. She had a messed up nose for some reason and we gave her all sorts of grief on it. She came back for her senior year with a nose job and we made fun of her for getting a nose job. Yeah we were a holes and I feel really bad about it to this day. But my point is this goes on everywhere and these kids were just messed up. Plenty of other options of getting back at someone without you know shooting them with a shotgun.
That's easy for the antagonist to say.
 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :excited:
On a serious note, there is not a school in America where that stuff doesnt go on. My friends and I were brutal to some other people to the point that I thought about writing a letter to a girl we just destroyed. She had a messed up nose for some reason and we gave her all sorts of grief on it. She came back for her senior year with a nose job and we made fun of her for getting a nose job. Yeah we were a holes and I feel really bad about it to this day. But my point is this goes on everywhere and these kids were just messed up. Plenty of other options of getting back at someone without you know shooting them with a shotgun.
Ever heard the term you reap what you sow.
 
ttiger72 said:
Definitely changed my view of the two. I had always thought it was a revenge/social outcast kind of thing. That doesn't appear to be the case at all.
The killers who operate in pairs are often the very worst because they feed on each others' pathology. You've see that with people like the Hillside Strangler (actually two people); Charles Ng and Leonard Lake; and the Birnies, to name only a few. Harris sounds like the moving force here, and Klebold sounds just like a depressed, confused, vulnerable teen who Harris identified and took into his confidence.

 
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ttiger72 said:
Definitely changed my view of the two. I had always thought it was a revenge/social outcast kind of thing. That doesn't appear to be the case at all.
The killers who operate in pairs are often the very worst because they feed on each others' pathology. You've see that with people like the Hillside Strangler (actually two people); Charles Ng and Leonard Lake; and the Birnies, to name only a few. Harris sounds like the moving force here, and Klebold sounds just like a depressed, confused, vulnerable teen who Harris identified and took into his confidence.
:confused: Their journals and a lot of other information has been gradually becoming available for the past several years, and everything in them would indicate your last sentence is true.On the loner point, these kids had friends. They had friends that helped them buy guns, since they weren't old enough. They went to the prom (or maybe just one of them did--I can't remember). They hung out with people. They did a lot of normal teenage stuff, and despite being bullied a little they also bullied others. The "loners who took their revenge against bullies" myth has been disproved for a long time. MK, thanks for posting this--good article that sums up a lot of the misinformation that's been out there.

 
I think one of the main points of the article comes back to realize that this could have been much worse than what it was. Had those bombs gone off as planned and the chaos ensued with the two picking the runners off... this would have been ten times what we know of it today.

Why did these kids do this? Well, apparently they admired McVeigh to a point that they wanted to mimic the chaos he did. On the other hand, why did they do this? Years of frustration maybe but ultimately something was not right with them. If they were out to get one group, they failed. If they were out to get certain people, they failed. If they were out to cause harm and chaos they somewhat succeeded but they failed in their mission to cause more.

I think it is sad the tumultuous times their parents had after this as they were dragged through the grinder for anything and everything. Why did they not know, why did they not do something, they should be blamed, they should be jailed and so on. With all of this, I think it took a lot of control for them to not go off on people. Their kids were bad seeds with little to no explanation about what they did. The community was put through similar troubles... why did the school not know, why did classmates not tell anyone, why did teachers not know. The community was looked down upon by many and these kids were just bad seeds.

Hopefully, in time, some of these people get vindicated for being put through hell for no reason. I never blamed or looked to blame the parents but in the past ten years, how many laws have been passed that holds parents responsible for their minor's actions? I understand if a kid breaks a window or dents a car, the parents pay that off. But, if a minor gets weapons through illegal means or hurts someone by taking a car or whatever, I am not sure a parent should be held liable. In the past ten years, the law has come down on parents for much of this and their kids are not punished as people have looked towards the parents, wrongly many times.

Again, thank you you two for failing at your overall scheme. But, they also helped, indirectly, create more harm for us all.

 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :confused:
On a serious note, there is not a school in America where that stuff doesnt go on. My friends and I were brutal to some other people to the point that I thought about writing a letter to a girl we just destroyed. She had a messed up nose for some reason and we gave her all sorts of grief on it. She came back for her senior year with a nose job and we made fun of her for getting a nose job. Yeah we were a holes and I feel really bad about it to this day. But my point is this goes on everywhere and these kids were just messed up. Plenty of other options of getting back at someone without you know shooting them with a shotgun.
Sadly, what exactly would those other obvious options be? If they tell a teacher, at best the teacher scolds the jocks or whomever are picking on them and the people getting picked on, get picked on even worse for being tattlers. Same for telling their parents, who'd talk to the parents of the jocks, and the same scenario would ensue.I highly doubt that a prank would be suitable for them without getting a beat down or worse from the jocks/whomever.

Note I'm not advocating what they did but it's easy to say there are other options without detailing it.

 
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The "loners who took their revenge against bullies" myth has been disproved for a long time.
I don't remember it ever being portrayed that way. Not saying it wasn't, just that my first recollection of the event was not that it was a "getting back at bullies" rampage.As a note, the book "The Hour I First Believed" that recently came out (and sort of centers on Columbine) is fantastic.
 
I highly doubt that a prank would be suitable for them without getting a beat down or worse from the jocks/whomever.Note I'm not advocating what they did but it's easy to say there are other options without detailing it.
I actually think the playing field has been leveled a LOT since I was a kid. When I was younger, bullies picked on weak kids. But now, the weak kids are the ones holed up at their computers for hours on end. Used to be, you'd get beaten up if you were weak and someone else was strong. Now, you can get on Facebookand in a couple keystrokes, offer an embarrassing experience to the strongest bully from the anonymity of your bedroom.
 
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The "loners who took their revenge against bullies" myth has been disproved for a long time.
I don't remember it ever being portrayed that way. Not saying it wasn't, just that my first recollection of the event was not that it was a "getting back at bullies" rampage.As a note, the book "The Hour I First Believed" that recently came out (and sort of centers on Columbine) is fantastic.
Absolutely. Wally Lamb is a fantastic writer. I thought he tried to cram a bit too much into that book (all the historical stuff about the protagonist's family), but the book as a whole was terrific.I'm shocked you don't realize that's how it's been portrayed. Just the comments of people in this thread are a reminder of the misinformation.
 
I'm shocked you don't realize that's how it's been portrayed. Just the comments of people in this thread are a reminder of the misinformation.
Like I said, I'm not saying it isn't so, simply saying that isn't how I remembered it. I was working for the Texas State legislature at the time and I DO remember that much of the attention there wasn't about legislating bullies but in legislating gun-control and implementing safety precautions in schools. I just had a different perspective.
 
ttiger72 said:
Definitely changed my view of the two. I had always thought it was a revenge/social outcast kind of thing. That doesn't appear to be the case at all.
The killers who operate in pairs are often the very worst because they feed on each others' pathology. You've see that with people like the Hillside Strangler (actually two people); Charles Ng and Leonard Lake; and the Birnies, to name only a few. Harris sounds like the moving force here, and Klebold sounds just like a depressed, confused, vulnerable teen who Harris identified and took into his confidence.
:) Their journals and a lot of other information has been gradually becoming available for the past several years, and everything in them would indicate your last sentence is true.On the loner point, these kids had friends. They had friends that helped them buy guns, since they weren't old enough. They went to the prom (or maybe just one of them did--I can't remember). They hung out with people. They did a lot of normal teenage stuff, and despite being bullied a little they also bullied others. The "loners who took their revenge against bullies" myth has been disproved for a long time. MK, thanks for posting this--good article that sums up a lot of the misinformation that's been out there.
They were bullied more than a little. If you had a full can of soda thrown at your head, would you say, oh well, someone just bullied me a little? That's just one account of one instance.
 
From a school standpoint... the anti-bullying crowd came out full force after this. It took a couple years to take hold due to the studies that had to be done to "prove" bullying was bad, but the Columbine incident was the cause of this movement. You cannot go into an elementary school or even middle school now that does not emphasize anti-bullying measures. High school is a little different but what I have noticed in that setting is not much teasing goes on at all.

 
ttiger72 said:
Definitely changed my view of the two. I had always thought it was a revenge/social outcast kind of thing. That doesn't appear to be the case at all.
The killers who operate in pairs are often the very worst because they feed on each others' pathology. You've see that with people like the Hillside Strangler (actually two people); Charles Ng and Leonard Lake; and the Birnies, to name only a few. Harris sounds like the moving force here, and Klebold sounds just like a depressed, confused, vulnerable teen who Harris identified and took into his confidence.
:) Their journals and a lot of other information has been gradually becoming available for the past several years, and everything in them would indicate your last sentence is true.On the loner point, these kids had friends. They had friends that helped them buy guns, since they weren't old enough. They went to the prom (or maybe just one of them did--I can't remember). They hung out with people. They did a lot of normal teenage stuff, and despite being bullied a little they also bullied others. The "loners who took their revenge against bullies" myth has been disproved for a long time. MK, thanks for posting this--good article that sums up a lot of the misinformation that's been out there.
They were bullied more than a little. If you had a full can of soda thrown at your head, would you say, oh well, someone just bullied me a little? That's just one account of one instance.
Thanks for completely ignoring the point and arguing semantics. :hey: BTW, you're not the only person who knows people who were there. I know two teachers who had victims and shooters in class. Doesn't make either of us an expert on what really went down, though I'm basing what I say on having studied the public documents as well.

eoMMan, while in a sense I agree with you, the reason this is studied so seriously is to understand what can be done, if anything, to prevent similar events. As for those of us on the board talking about it, though, maybe you're right. I'll refrain from further comment.

 
ttiger72 said:
Definitely changed my view of the two. I had always thought it was a revenge/social outcast kind of thing. That doesn't appear to be the case at all.
The killers who operate in pairs are often the very worst because they feed on each others' pathology. You've see that with people like the Hillside Strangler (actually two people); Charles Ng and Leonard Lake; and the Birnies, to name only a few. Harris sounds like the moving force here, and Klebold sounds just like a depressed, confused, vulnerable teen who Harris identified and took into his confidence.
:thumbup: Their journals and a lot of other information has been gradually becoming available for the past several years, and everything in them would indicate your last sentence is true.On the loner point, these kids had friends. They had friends that helped them buy guns, since they weren't old enough. They went to the prom (or maybe just one of them did--I can't remember). They hung out with people. They did a lot of normal teenage stuff, and despite being bullied a little they also bullied others. The "loners who took their revenge against bullies" myth has been disproved for a long time. MK, thanks for posting this--good article that sums up a lot of the misinformation that's been out there.
They were bullied more than a little. If you had a full can of soda thrown at your head, would you say, oh well, someone just bullied me a little? That's just one account of one instance.
Thanks for completely ignoring the point and arguing semantics. :thumbup: BTW, you're not the only person who knows people who were there. I know two teachers who had victims and shooters in class. Doesn't make either of us an expert on what really went down, though I'm basing what I say on having studied the public documents as well.

eoMMan, while in a sense I agree with you, the reason this is studied so seriously is to understand what can be done, if anything, to prevent similar events. As for those of us on the board talking about it, though, maybe you're right. I'll refrain from further comment.
First of all, I think it's an important distinction that goes beyond mere semtantics. I am not ignoring anything. Second of all, I never claimed to be the only one who knew people there. What I'm saying is, I'll believe a firsthand account from someone who knew the shooters and victimized them, and was subsequently victimized by them, over any number of reports that have come out since. My point is, you're way understating the amount of abuse these kids took on a daily basis.
 
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I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :thumbup:
On a serious note, there is not a school in America where that stuff doesnt go on. My friends and I were brutal to some other people to the point that I thought about writing a letter to a girl we just destroyed. She had a messed up nose for some reason and we gave her all sorts of grief on it. She came back for her senior year with a nose job and we made fun of her for getting a nose job. Yeah we were a holes and I feel really bad about it to this day. But my point is this goes on everywhere and these kids were just messed up. Plenty of other options of getting back at someone without you know shooting them with a shotgun.
Sadly, what exactly would those other obvious options be? If they tell a teacher, at best the teacher scolds the jocks or whomever are picking on them and the people getting picked on, get picked on even worse for being tattlers. Same for telling their parents, who'd talk to the parents of the jocks, and the same scenario would ensue.I highly doubt that a prank would be suitable for them without getting a beat down or worse from the jocks/whomever.

Note I'm not advocating what they did but it's easy to say there are other options without detailing it.
I think there are lots of ways, particularly during the high school years, to utterly humiliate someone without killing them. Sure, you'd have to deal with consequences, but I'm not sure where teasing or bullying gets to the point where you need to shoot someone in the head with a shotgun.
 
First of all, I think it's an important distinction. I am not ignoring anything. Second of all, I never claimed to be the only one who knew people there. What I'm saying is, I'll believe a firsthand account from someone who knew the shooters and victimized them, and was subsequently victimized by them, over any number of reports that have come out since. My point is, you're way understating the amount of abuse these kids took on a daily basis.
:thumbup: Please, do tell us more about the daily soda can at the noggin.

 
First of all, I think it's an important distinction. I am not ignoring anything. Second of all, I never claimed to be the only one who knew people there. What I'm saying is, I'll believe a firsthand account from someone who knew the shooters and victimized them, and was subsequently victimized by them, over any number of reports that have come out since. My point is, you're way understating the amount of abuse these kids took on a daily basis.
:thumbup: Please, do tell us more about the daily soda can at the noggin.
You're right. It's meaningless. I apologize for sharing with the class.
 
I highly doubt that a prank would be suitable for them without getting a beat down or worse from the jocks/whomever.

Note I'm not advocating what they did but it's easy to say there are other options without detailing it.
I actually think the playing field has been leveled a LOT since I was a kid. When I was younger, bullies picked on weak kids. But now, the weak kids are the ones holed up at their computers for hours on end. Used to be, you'd get beaten up if you were weak and someone else was strong. Now, you can get on Facebookand in a couple keystrokes, offer an embarrassing experience to the strongest bully from the anonymity of your bedroom.
Or get your parents involved to help on MySpace/Facebook and maybe they will sue or worse kill themselves
 
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eoMMan, while in a sense I agree with you, the reason this is studied so seriously is to understand what can be done, if anything, to prevent similar events. As for those of us on the board talking about it, though, maybe you're right. I'll refrain from further comment.
I honestly don't think there is anything that can be done to stop these sort of things. The more we try the worse it will get. More regulation only makes kids work harder to get around the obstacles, and they will. It's silly to think that stronger gun laws and other things like that will eradicate the problem. The only hope is to create a youth society that is more welcoming of everyone, less willing to humiliate others for personal/social gain or fulfillment. No easy task to be sure. The fact that these kids were likely chemically awry makes things trickier. Mental illness runs in my family and it's difficult to contain and treat as I've experienced. Sometimes it's best to look at traumatic events like this as a part of life that happens, like tornadoes and earthquakes. So long as the capability to inflict such damage is out there, these sort of things will happen. Obviously no one wants it to happen to someone in their own life, but no one is looking to the skies thinking they can make tornadoes cease to exist. Thankfully, such rampages don't happen every day in America.I'm not saying metal detectors and stronger gun laws are useless, they help. I'm saying that such people who are committed enough to violence as Harris and Klebold were will find a way to do their evil.

 
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I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :goodposting:
On a serious note, there is not a school in America where that stuff doesnt go on. My friends and I were brutal to some other people to the point that I thought about writing a letter to a girl we just destroyed. She had a messed up nose for some reason and we gave her all sorts of grief on it. She came back for her senior year with a nose job and we made fun of her for getting a nose job. Yeah we were a holes and I feel really bad about it to this day. But my point is this goes on everywhere and these kids were just messed up. Plenty of other options of getting back at someone without you know shooting them with a shotgun.
Sadly, what exactly would those other obvious options be? If they tell a teacher, at best the teacher scolds the jocks or whomever are picking on them and the people getting picked on, get picked on even worse for being tattlers. Same for telling their parents, who'd talk to the parents of the jocks, and the same scenario would ensue.I highly doubt that a prank would be suitable for them without getting a beat down or worse from the jocks/whomever.

Note I'm not advocating what they did but it's easy to say there are other options without detailing it.
I think there are lots of ways, particularly during the high school years, to utterly humiliate someone without killing them. Sure, you'd have to deal with consequences, but I'm not sure where teasing or bullying gets to the point where you need to shoot someone in the head with a shotgun.
I'm actually shocked it doesn't happen more often in our society where gun are so readily available.When you mix kids, ability to get guns, a sense of helplessness when being picked on, I can understand the hatred that builds and seeing there is only one way to end the humiliation for yourself and couple the thought of causing hurt to those who have hurt you the most...Yea I can see where it gets to the point where you need to shoot someone.

 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :goodposting:
On a serious note, there is not a school in America where that stuff doesnt go on. My friends and I were brutal to some other people to the point that I thought about writing a letter to a girl we just destroyed. She had a messed up nose for some reason and we gave her all sorts of grief on it. She came back for her senior year with a nose job and we made fun of her for getting a nose job. Yeah we were a holes and I feel really bad about it to this day. But my point is this goes on everywhere and these kids were just messed up. Plenty of other options of getting back at someone without you know shooting them with a shotgun.
Sadly, what exactly would those other obvious options be? If they tell a teacher, at best the teacher scolds the jocks or whomever are picking on them and the people getting picked on, get picked on even worse for being tattlers. Same for telling their parents, who'd talk to the parents of the jocks, and the same scenario would ensue.I highly doubt that a prank would be suitable for them without getting a beat down or worse from the jocks/whomever.

Note I'm not advocating what they did but it's easy to say there are other options without detailing it.
I think there are lots of ways, particularly during the high school years, to utterly humiliate someone without killing them. Sure, you'd have to deal with consequences, but I'm not sure where teasing or bullying gets to the point where you need to shoot someone in the head with a shotgun.
I'm actually shocked it doesn't happen more often in our society where gun are so readily available.When you mix kids, ability to get guns, a sense of helplessness when being picked on, I can understand the hatred that builds and seeing there is only one way to end the humiliation for yourself and couple the thought of causing hurt to those who have hurt you the most...Yea I can see where it gets to the point where you need to shoot someone.
I can't. You don't "need" to shoot someone. You "choose" to shoot someone. There are plenty of other options. They may not be as dramatic and get you as much publicity, but there are plenty of other ways to mess with someone without taking a gun out and shooting someone.The fact that you think there is a point "where you need to shoot someone" really freaks me out, to be quite honest.

 
TommyGilmore said:
They weren't goths or loners.[snip]one of Harris' last journal entries read: "I hate you people for leaving me out of so many fun things. And no don't … say, 'Well that's your fault,' because it isn't, you people had my phone #, and I asked and all, but no. No no no don't let the weird-looking Eric KID come along."
Yeah, not a loner.
Most of the myths that were initially believed were debunked about 5 years ago. However, I still think these guys were on the "outside looking in".
 


The fact that you think there is a point "where you need to shoot someone" really freaks me out, to be quite honest.
I think some individuals definitely think they've run out of options before resorting to shooting stuff up. The thing I'd be interested in knowing is what percentage of these school shooters suffered from depression or mental illness. Once someone has the mindset of a killer, what can we do about it, can we recognize it before an incident manifests? How can we stop it? I don't think we can. The only way to end it is to figure a way to eliminate mental illness in my opinion, which may not be possible for many years, and hopefully not in pill form. Most kids who get picked on in high school have no intention on killing anyone about it. Something else is at hand here, and I think it's mental issues that may not have resulted from bullying or exclusion, but rather something chemical in the brain coupled with a miserable social or familial experience.
 
I'm not sure how much stock I'd put in that. I worked with a kid who took shotgun shrapnel in the back. He was a jock and admitted that the pair were quite often victimized by jocks. In fact, he confessed to having at one point thrown a full can of soda at the back of Klebold's head in the cafeteria. :shrug:
It seems like the article attempts to make distinction between "bullied" and "picked on", as well as a distinction between "loner" and "outcast".It's a pretty blurry distinction if you ask me. Maybe they weren't daily targets of bullying, but it's pretty obvious that they had been shunned by the cool kids.
or shunned them as inferior beings as the article suggests
 
the story does get one thing right. at least in GA school districts have bought most of the "falsehoods" and sharply changed policies to respond to their perceived effect. The net effect is a LOT of kids who didnt need to be kicked out of school/expelled to alternative school "so this doesn't happen again".

 

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