What?? Are you crazy? Maybe 175 not counting his arms or legs.
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Could you win a fight with a (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Cavalier
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Voice Of Reason
Footballguy
Ortiz is a JUCO CA state wrestling champ and a D1 college wrestler. He also finished 3rd in the 2000 ADCC submission grappling tournament. He's no where near just some random in shape guy with 0 experience in wrestling/grappling.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Voice Of Reason
Footballguy
It would be. Weight is a big advantage on the ground, but not having any clue what you are doing doesn't allow you to make use of that advantage.I thought weight confered much more advantage in the ground game, and less in striking (assuming similar heights)? i understand that the smaller fighter can conceivablly achieve a submission hold on a bigger opponent, a la Royce Gracie. But the devil is in getting to that submission hold ... isn't that much harder against an opponent double your body weight than it against someone in your own weight class? It was harder for Royce to submit Dan Severn (sorry, my MMA references are ancient) than it was for him to submit the smaller strikers.
Maybe if we're pitting the 135-lb woman against completely untrained, unathletic guys. But give the big guys even basic HS-athlete level athleticism ... they should be able to make things a lot tougher on the MMA woman. Not saying she couldn't still win, but it wouldn't be (for her) like fighting a small child or something.
And Dan Severn was 2 time all American D1 wrestler who fought at the Olympic trails with a 75 lb advantage over Royce. BJJ has also advantaged a lot since 1994.
Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
She's also arguably the best women's MMA fighter in the world...and at 145 too, right?Edit: Looks like she walks around at 160.
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AhrnCityPahnder
Yinz-o-riffic
How much you benchin', bro?
quickhands
Footballguy
jayrod is my new favorite FBG toughguy. I'd be in your corner for the fight. If for no other reason,in case you lose.
my skill set is endless, insightful, and withering mockery. Which would start immediately.
my skill set is endless, insightful, and withering mockery. Which would start immediately.
the moops
Footballguy
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Any reasonably athletic, in-shape man with 6 months MMA training would K Cyborg TFO.
slayer666
Footballguy
Without question.
Pipes
Footballguy
True but this probably describes less than 1% of the FFA. We're talking about 30 and 40 somethings that are not fighters.
renesauz
IBL Representative
Is a 500 pound man stronger than a 400 pounder? Nope. Is a 220 pound man stronger than a 140 pound person? Almost always, usually significantly.Obviously, there are limits, a point where extra size/weight starts becoming a negative. But the idea that a 135 pound woman is going to easily roll over a 275 pound man with significant strength and reach advantages and even a small amount of athleticism and training is ridiculous. And the question asks only if the man has only a reasonable CHANCE to win...not even a certainty. IN answer to your question...while nothing is "automatic", any 150 pound man is in serious trouble fighting a man a foot taller and 100 pounds heavier.If any 220# man doesn't think he has even a CHANCE against a 135 pound woman....I can't help but laugh. (Note however, that most of the smaller guys, the sub 5'8, sub 180# guys, would have little chance outside of a lucky shot or serious training...SIZE AND WEIGHT MATTER. They aren't the be-all end-all, but they matter.)
renesauz
IBL Representative
Yep....completely off your rocker.
matuski
Footballguy
It is well established on these boards that when you subtract 10/15% of a persons bodyweight they become even more invincible.
matuski
Footballguy
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I have ~4 years of MT training and a few sessions of BJJ thrown in, and I KNOW I'd get destroyed by a pro MMA chick. I'd need about 6 months of full time training to even have a chance.
I would put 20:1 odds that Chris Cyborg could knock out / submit any of you fools in 10 minutes.
I would put 20:1 odds that Chris Cyborg could knock out / submit any of you fools in 10 minutes.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
You're high. No freaking way. 6 months aint #### for training. It's barely enough to get your cardio up to go non-stop for 10 minutes.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Seriously? I always thought cardio was the easiest thing to improve quickly. Strength and explosiveness takes time to build, but cardio comes quick. The harder you push yourself, the quicker you regain endurance. Push yourself to complete exhaustion every day for a month and I guarantee that a 10 minute scrap won't be tough. The problem is most people won't push that hard.
Jayrod
Footballguy
'Bout how big an ole boy are ya?
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
You should find the thread where he claims that he's a better basketball player than LeBron. Great stuff.
Chester Copperpot
Footballguy
Apple Juice
Footballguy
I doubt that's true but I hope it is. Jayrod has been a solid source of entertainment in this thread, the WNBA one-on-one thread, and any thread where he talks about his model wife.
Jayrod
Footballguy
OK, first of all, I just claimed that LeBron should be able to pull off a jump shot at least as well as I do.However, I'm 100% sure I could beat a WNBA player 1 on 1, 50% I could take a 135 lb MMA female and my wife has never modeled, but is a solid 8.
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Have you been in a ring before? Have you even sparred? Have you ever gotten KO'd?
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Jayrod
Footballguy
No, but endurance is endurance. Running, jumping, punching, wrestling, etc.....it is all about the cardiovascular system providing oxygen to the body and the parts of the body that need it the most. I'm aware that MMA is one of the most taxing cardiovascular activities there is, but to claim it would take 6 months to get in enough shape to do 10 minutes is just stupid. If you focus on it, you could get to a functional level in a month and a high level in 2. Of course this is highly dependent upon age as well....as you get older, your recovery times and endurance are the first things to go.Have you been in a ring before? Have you even sparred?
playin4beer
Footballguy
Have you been in a ring before? Have you even sparred?
It's a whole different story in the ring... My measly two kickboxing fights were just at a small local venue.. about 800 in attendance...and I was still all jacked up and breathing fast... at least for the first fight. I was a lot more calm for the second one.. Too bad that didn't stop me from getting a broken nose. You can "think" what you want about being "in shape".. I've seen first hand, guys that were "in shape" sucking wind after 30-seconds of a fight."Fighting shape" is different than regular cardio...
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
No, but endurance is endurance. Running, jumping, punching, wrestling, etc.....it is all about the cardiovascular system providing oxygen to the body and the parts of the body that need it the most. I'm aware that MMA is one of the most taxing cardiovascular activities there is, but to claim it would take 6 months to get in enough shape to do 10 minutes is just stupid. If you focus on it, you could get to a functional level in a month and a high level in 2. Of course this is highly dependent upon age as well....as you get older, your recovery times and endurance are the first things to go.Have you been in a ring before? Have you even sparred?
Pro fighters who spend their lives training, with the best trainers in the world, still run out of gas in fights.
Jayrod
Footballguy
And running out of cardio because you aren't controlling your emotions is different than not training well enough....Have you been in a ring before? Have you even sparred?
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
I would show up like James "The Grim Reaper" Roper did for his fight against "Irish" Terry Conklin and still win.
playin4beer
Footballguy
Until you get into a ring with somebody that wants to beat the #### out of you, in front of crowd, with bright lights shining, cheering and yelling, you won't ever "get it".And running out of cardio because you aren't controlling your emotions is different than not training well enough....Have you been in a ring before? Have you even sparred?
Jayrod
Footballguy
No, but endurance is endurance. Running, jumping, punching, wrestling, etc.....it is all about the cardiovascular system providing oxygen to the body and the parts of the body that need it the most. I'm aware that MMA is one of the most taxing cardiovascular activities there is, but to claim it would take 6 months to get in enough shape to do 10 minutes is just stupid. If you focus on it, you could get to a functional level in a month and a high level in 2. Of course this is highly dependent upon age as well....as you get older, your recovery times and endurance are the first things to go.Have you been in a ring before? Have you even sparred?
So how does one get in shape, then? Seems like it is impossible from what you are indicating if these pros with trainers can't do it. But then again, someone would have to be in shape for us to compare them to so that doesn't make sense.Just because some pro doesn't spend enough time focusing on their endurance doesn't mean it can't be done.
moleculo
Footballguy
I'd think that a solid 6 months of training a couple hours nearly every day could get a moderately athletic man competitive with the top female fighters. All I'm asking for you to have is a basic foundation -and then your size/strength advantages can kick in.
That's part of the point though...relatively few people actually have that foundation.
That's part of the point though...relatively few people actually have that foundation.
Chester Copperpot
Footballguy
OK guys, lets begin the countdown until Jayrod admits he is fishing.
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
Even though Z Machine doubts himself, I'd take him over Cyborg in a fight.
Doug B
Footballguy
Check my post carefully. What I said, specifically, was this: A big guy with basic HS-athlete level athleticism would challenge the MMA female quite a bit more than a small child would challenge her.
Admittedly, I'm picking nits. My greater point, though, is that you don't have to be in-prime Chuck Liddell to give her a match. You don't even have to be 75% prime Chuck, even. How to define that "75% of Chuck L." is another discussion.
My point here was only that Severn's weight advantage made things much harder on Gracie, despite Royce's BBJ techniques. And despite Severn's own wrestling accomplishments, I think the Severn/Gracie 1994 match is still instructive of how a 135-lb MMA female fighter would fare against a bigger male opponent with a legitimate degree of athleticism.About the 1994 match: yes, Royce Gracie won. But it was long and drawn out (16 minutes) and was certainly no walk for Gracie. The lore of that match in the intervening years is that Gracie had that match in the bag all along, when in fact Severn was probably "winnning" for 15 minutes and change.
Doug B
Footballguy
Thought the house would enjoy this diversion, since we're talking about size/weight differentials and all:
.Haven't watched the video yet ... I want to see how MMA technique stacks up against the "physics" here
EDIT: First time I have ever seen an African-American sumo wrestler. Fans of Oz may remember seeing Emmanuel Yarbrough in one of the episodes.
.Haven't watched the video yet ... I want to see how MMA technique stacks up against the "physics" here
EDIT: First time I have ever seen an African-American sumo wrestler. Fans of Oz may remember seeing Emmanuel Yarbrough in one of the episodes.
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The Z Machine
Footballguy
Cyborg could go for one month no training, Atkins diet, drop 10 lbs. and still kick the chit out of me in about 45 seconds. An in shape, 145 lbs. Cyborg could whip my ### in probably 25 seconds. I would not want one minute in the ring with that beast.
Doug B
Footballguy
Hmmm ... halfway through the video, and the little guy has just been running Yarbrough around the ring. Might be carrying just a tad too much weight here.
EDIT: Jebus, just skip to about 4:10 to see any kind of real action.
EDIT2: Smaller guy wins w/o submission hold or a takedown or anything ... Yarbrough just taps out after taking a bunch of punches. Yarbrough had him pinned down for a while, but couldn't improve his position.
EDIT: Jebus, just skip to about 4:10 to see any kind of real action.
EDIT2: Smaller guy wins w/o submission hold or a takedown or anything ... Yarbrough just taps out after taking a bunch of punches. Yarbrough had him pinned down for a while, but couldn't improve his position.
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Notorious T.R.E.
Showdown!™ Administrator
moleculo
Footballguy
Legitimate degree of athleticism <> solid fighting foundation.I was an all-state HS and collegiate wrestler. There's not much on the mats that I haven't seen. When i started with the jiu-jitsu, i could hold my own against the low level guys, but anyone with a few years of experience kills me.
Cliff Clavin
Footballguy
Maybe once you're done teaching LeBron how to shoot you can give some UFC guys a call and offer to train them.No, but endurance is endurance. Running, jumping, punching, wrestling, etc.....it is all about the cardiovascular system providing oxygen to the body and the parts of the body that need it the most. I'm aware that MMA is one of the most taxing cardiovascular activities there is, but to claim it would take 6 months to get in enough shape to do 10 minutes is just stupid. If you focus on it, you could get to a functional level in a month and a high level in 2. Of course this is highly dependent upon age as well....as you get older, your recovery times and endurance are the first things to go.Have you been in a ring before? Have you even sparred?
The Z Machine
Footballguy
I can tell you first hand that fighting shape is definitely different than other kinds of in-shape. Just holding your hands up in a defensive position, moving around a ring and throwing an occasional punch will get most in-shape guys tired in 5 minutes. That's not doing any defense or offense, nor taking things to the ground.
You get in fighting shape by sparring, working the heavy bag, working the pads, and moving moving moving during all of it. Then you roll on the ground with people better than you and learn to defend yourself. Then you add in a lot of core strengthening work on top of that.
It's not like running or swimming or cycling, jumping rope, or playing football. The up and down nature of the cardio is all over the place. There's always tension and activity going on, especially in the brain, which can be sort of shut off for other endurance events to some extent. In a fight, it's all muscles, all neurons, everything ready to go without a lost nanosecond.
You get in fighting shape by sparring, working the heavy bag, working the pads, and moving moving moving during all of it. Then you roll on the ground with people better than you and learn to defend yourself. Then you add in a lot of core strengthening work on top of that.
It's not like running or swimming or cycling, jumping rope, or playing football. The up and down nature of the cardio is all over the place. There's always tension and activity going on, especially in the brain, which can be sort of shut off for other endurance events to some extent. In a fight, it's all muscles, all neurons, everything ready to go without a lost nanosecond.
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Doug B
Footballguy
. This was in 2004, so both men were on the wrong side of 30 -- but Gracie is 2.5 years older than Akebono. I'm assuming Gracie wins this, but I still want to see how this plays out.Akebono gets on top very quickly -- Gracie did not run around the ring or anything like that. Royce is slippery, though -- from his back, he is sort of "crab-walking" Akebono across the ring.
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Maik Jeaunz
Footballguy
saw Chuck Liddell at the gym last night. thought about asking him how many fantasy football message board posters he could beat up.
Doug B
Footballguy
Gotta be a ton of overlap in the training. SEALs obviously don't train specifically for MMA competition, but I'm sure they incoporate BJJ and other MMA discpilines into their hand-to-hand training. SEALs can match (if not exceed) the MMA fighters in endurance all day, too.
Charlie Frown
Footballguy
As the Iron Sheik would say, I would "break her back, **** her *** and make her humble".
Doug B
Footballguy
Gracie beats Akebono, too, it turns out ... but it's a much better fight to watch than the Yarbrough one. Akebono is very quick on his feet, avoiding the BJJ footsweep at one point.
EDIT: Akebono gets Gracie on the ground again, but Gracie slips a leg out and uses it to get a kind of armbar join-lock on the big man. Akebono submits.
Akebono had some grappling ability, and surprising quickness. Seemed like he was unable to do much to Gracie when he had his weight on top of the smaller man, though.
EDIT: Akebono gets Gracie on the ground again, but Gracie slips a leg out and uses it to get a kind of armbar join-lock on the big man. Akebono submits.
Akebono had some grappling ability, and surprising quickness. Seemed like he was unable to do much to Gracie when he had his weight on top of the smaller man, though.
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Doug B
Footballguy
Ad absurdum: so how can a 120-lb chimpanzee beat the MMA's best every time? The ape is all athleticism, no fighting foundation, no MMA training.
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