Counterpoint, Russell Wilson. How does he compare to a Brady if Wilso (1 Viewer)

[Eminence]

What if Russell Wilson actually beats Brady? Talk about building a legacy. He'd be tied for most rings among active behind Brady, right?

At his age. If you're trying to argue Marino into the HOF with no Super Bowl rings and Russell has two in a row? He's going toward Brady status if it continues.

I didn't like that he cried.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Wilson would likely not get the credit yet, as most would accredit the rings to the defense - but the same was said about Brady at one point. Would surely put him on the right trajectory to work his way into an "all time greats" conversation but he'd obviously have a long way to go.

One of the potentially great young quarterbacks though.

 

[FUBAR]

Wilson would likely not get the credit yet, as most would accredit the rings to the defense - but the same was said about Brady at one point. Would surely put him on the right trajectory to work his way into an "all time greats" conversation but he'd obviously have a long way to go.

One of the potentially great young quarterbacks though.

the defense, Lynch and his coach.

A lot of people, myself included, really like Wilson. But it's premature to add him into the discussion of GOAT.

Big Ben started out with similar credentials and while he's continued to be good even when his team wasn't as talented around him, he isn't mentioned in the GOAT discussions (nor should he be). If pressed, I'd say Wilson is more similar to Ben than to Brady right now.

Wilson could continue to improve and lead his team, and eventually become one of the all time greats. Right now he's 2nd only to Luck among young QBs. Difference being Wilson was lucky enough to be drafted by a team otherwise incredibly talented, in a position where he could compete to start, and made the most of it.

How many QBs start their career with the surrounding talent Wilson has? That list will be incredibly short, perhaps nonexistent.

Not to take anything away from Wilson, but if he is to be discussed among the all time greats, he'll need to continue to succeed at a high level when the talent around him starts eroding. He's doing it without great receivers already and I like his chances over the long haul.

 

[Riversco]

Russell Wilson is only 26. His best years are still ahead of him. He could win 2 rings as a pup at age 25 and 26, and then go on to a long career and really put up some big seasons 4-6 years from now or sometime in the 2020s.

Too early to compare them.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

14/29/209/1/4 in an AFCCG.... I'm going to throw the name Bob Griese out there. The Seahawks are a throwback team, their QB deserves a throwback comparison. (Not talking playing style here of course).

 

[thatguy]

He's not in the conversation yet, nor will he be with a win. He'll have the most remarkable start to a career that I've ever seen. Still, there's something to be said for longevity. In any case, there is not a doubt in my mind that barring injury he'll be in the conversation soon. Maybe 3-5 more seasons, as Seattle's defense loses its dominance and Russ becomes the focal point of the Hawks' success. I should add that I believe he is already integral to their success, but he has to shed the game manager label before being placed in such elite company.

 

[cstu]

Russell Wilson is only 26. His best years are still ahead of him. He could win 2 rings as a pup at age 25 and 26, and then go on to a long career and really put up some big seasons 4-6 years from now or sometime in the 2020s.

Too early to compare them.

Roethlisberger was also 26 when he won his 2nd Super Bowl.

 

[ImTheScientist]

He could very well be this era's Joe Montana.

 

[rct]

I didn't like that he cried.

 

[ShamrockPride]

Dude just played by far the worst fame of his career and by all means should have cost his team a 2nd straight trip to the super bowl, and he still found the mental fortitude to sling two perfect passes down the field in OT to win it. I'd be a lil overwhelmed too.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

what if he wins 10 more rings?

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

He could very well be this era's Joe Montana.

which would rank him behind brady

 

[msudaisy26]

He could be, but it is too early to tell yet. Seattle and the early 2000's Pats have a lot in common. I think Wilson will be great, but I want to see if he can continue to be great when Seattle starts losing pieces in defense, or when Lynch leaves and his running game is just average. Maybe Seattle gets him some legit weapons, I want to see him dominate when they and if they do.

 

[proninja]

Even I think this is way premature.

 

[MarcO]

Posted this in the other thread but it fits within the context of this discussion so I'll repost it:

1st 3 seasons as a starter:

Brady: 40-12, 2 SB appearances, 75-41 TD-INT, 11591 passing yards

Wilson: 42-13, 2 SB appearances, 82-31 TD-INT, 11523 passing yards

 

[Freelove]

Brady isn't considered particularly great for his early successes. It's those, compounded by the sheer number of them, compounded by his sustained level of excellence, compounded by his unprecedented ability to excel through absolutely radical shifts back and forth in scheme and style.

Similarity in early passing numbers isn't a particularly good metric to use to prop up Wilson, since those were regarded as pretty mediocre even years ago when Brady put them up in a different NFL. That era's Brady still had a decade+ of work to do to fully shed that game manager label.

Wilson's just at the start of that journey.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Posted this in the other thread but it fits within the context of this discussion so I'll repost it:

1st 3 seasons as a starter:

Brady: 40-12, 2 SB appearances, 75-41 TD-INT, 11591 passing yards

Wilson: 42-13, 2 SB appearances, 82-31 TD-INT, 11523 passing yards

You should add in Rushing Yards/Rushing TDs imo.

 

[proninja]

Posted this in the other thread but it fits within the context of this discussion so I'll repost it:



1st 3 seasons as a starter:

Brady: 40-12, 2 SB appearances, 75-41 TD-INT, 11591 passing yards

Wilson: 42-13, 2 SB appearances, 82-31 TD-INT, 11523 passing yards

You should add in Rushing Yards/Rushing TDs imo.

Number of attempts/ypa would also be useful. But Brady isn't a hall of famer on his first three seasons alone.

 

[msudaisy26]

Posted this in the other thread but it fits within the context of this discussion so I'll repost it:

1st 3 seasons as a starter:

Brady: 40-12, 2 SB appearances, 75-41 TD-INT, 11591 passing yards

Wilson: 42-13, 2 SB appearances, 82-31 TD-INT, 11523 passing yards

You should add in Rushing Yards/Rushing TDs imo.

Number of attempts/ypa would also be useful.But Brady isn't a hall of famer on his first three seasons alone.

While I think their teams are very similar, comparing stats isn't. Wilson is a mobile guy and Brady has never been. We are also in a more pass friendly league now, compared to the early 2000's

 

[thatguy]

Posted this in the other thread but it fits within the context of this discussion so I'll repost it:



1st 3 seasons as a starter:

Brady: 40-12, 2 SB appearances, 75-41 TD-INT, 11591 passing yards

Wilson: 42-13, 2 SB appearances, 82-31 TD-INT, 11523 passing yards

You should add in Rushing Yards/Rushing TDs imo.

I'm pretty sure he did include rushing touchdowns. Although he is 1 short. Wilson has 72 touchdowns passes and 11 rushing touchdowns. 83 total.ETA: unless he is including the playoffs which is possible because wilson only has 26 regular season interceptions

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

at this point, i wonder if the needle has swung over to overvalued on wilson.

he's mostly lauded because of team accomplishments, and he's got one of the best running games in the league, along with what a lot of people say is a historically great defense that compares with some of the best ever.

his defense held one of the great offenses to 8 points in that superbowl he's getting credit for, and his def/st staked him 21.

the latter half of this year the seahawks marched to another playoff appearance behind a defense routinely holding opponents to 7 points --- what qb wouldn't win those games?

even this last game against gb, his defense held the packers down enough to recover from a historically bad game from their qb.

wilson will always get credit for this 2nd superbowl appearance, and people will forget how he tried his best to give this game away.

so, I'm not ripping wilson --- he's a very good qb.

but, didn't trent dilfer win a superbowl?

is trent dilfer the greatest qb of all time, should trent dilfer be the highest paid guy in the league?

if russell wilson actually hit the market do you think he'd command cutler money?

 

[FUBAR]

Posted this in the other thread but it fits within the context of this discussion so I'll repost it:

1st 3 seasons as a starter:

Brady: 40-12, 2 SB appearances, 75-41 TD-INT, 11591 passing yards

Wilson: 42-13, 2 SB appearances, 82-31 TD-INT, 11523 passing yards

You should add in Rushing Yards/Rushing TDs imo.

Number of attempts/ypa would also be useful.But Brady isn't a hall of famer on his first three seasons alone.

While I think their teams are very similar, comparing stats isn't. Wilson is a mobile guy and Brady has never been. We are also in a more pass friendly league now, compared to the early 2000's

true.

Can't be too much of a shock that two of the top QBs went to teams who were otherwise very good.

While the other two - Peyton and Luck went to franchises they had to carry.

 

[proninja]

Lol at Dilfer comparisons. That's some stinky bait.

 

[proninja]

First it was "just wait until they're down and have to come back on Wilson's back"

Now it's "well, he let then get ahead in the first place before the best comeback in nfc championship game history, so Dilfer"

And yes, I know I'm getting fished.

 

[steveski]

He sucked for 90% of the game last week and was a turnover machine. He can thank his defense and special teams (like usual) for holding the Packers to field goals time and time again and allowing him a chance.

I'm not saying that he's not a good QB, because he is. He's far from anywhere near the best of all time or even the best in the game today. Who cares if his team won the super bowl twice in a row? They have one of the best defenses in the league and one of the best running games in the league. All you need to compliment that is a decent QB and you have a championship team. He almost threw that away against GB.

 

[Run It Up]

I think Wilson is on a developmental path somewhere between Rodgers and Flacco. I can't wrap my head around it yet, I think it might just be how fresh he is but on some of his drives he looks like Blaine Gabbert and on others he looks like Steve Young in his prime.

I think hes got a very bright future, with an almost perfect foundation around him, I don't mind the Brady comparisons as they are pretty accurate.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

I think Wilson is on a developmental path somewhere between Rodgers and Flacco. I can't wrap my head around it yet, I think it might just be how fresh he is but on some of his drives he looks like Blaine Gabbert and on others he looks like Steve Young in his prime.

I think hes got a very bright future, with an almost perfect foundation around him, I don't mind the Brady comparisons as they are pretty accurate.

has brady ever thrown 4 picks in a playoff game?

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

what if he wins 10 more rings?

One for each digit even if he was polydactyl? I would be impressed.

 

[MG345]

I think Wilson is on a developmental path somewhere between Rodgers and Flacco. I can't wrap my head around it yet, I think it might just be how fresh he is but on some of his drives he looks like Blaine Gabbert and on others he looks like Steve Young in his prime.

I think hes got a very bright future, with an almost perfect foundation around him, I don't mind the Brady comparisons as they are pretty accurate.

has brady ever thrown 4 picks in a playoff game?

Better question, has Tom Brady ever come back from throwing 4 INTs to throwing the game winning TD in a playoff game? Checkmate.

 

[FUBAR]

I think Wilson is on a developmental path somewhere between Rodgers and Flacco. I can't wrap my head around it yet, I think it might just be how fresh he is but on some of his drives he looks like Blaine Gabbert and on others he looks like Steve Young in his prime.

I think hes got a very bright future, with an almost perfect foundation around him, I don't mind the Brady comparisons as they are pretty accurate.

has brady ever thrown 4 picks in a playoff game?

He's thrown 3 three times with 2 wins, both against San Diego. One of which was a great comeback.

 

[Tau837]

Wilson is still generally underrated, as evidenced by many comments in this thread.

Carroll, Lynch, and the foundation of the defense were in Seattle before Wilson. How much did they win then?

It is obviously too early to talk about him in the GOAT discussion. But if Seattle wins this Super Bowl, he is definitely in the discussion for best start to a QB career.

 

[FUBAR]

Wilson is still generally underrated, as evidenced by many comments in this thread.

Carroll, Lynch, and the foundation of the defense were in Seattle before Wilson. How much did they win then?

It is obviously too early to talk about him in the GOAT discussion. But if Seattle wins this Super Bowl, he is definitely in the discussion for best start to a QB career.

Made the playoffs with a 35 year old Matt Hasselbeck and then were 7-9 with Travaris Jackson.

If your argument is RW is better than Travaris Jackson, few would argue otherwise.

ETA: correction, 7-7 with Travaris, they lost two games with Charlie Whitehurst as starter.

 

[The General]

He could very well be this era's Joe Montana.

which would rank him behind brady

X

 

[Tau837]

Wilson would likely not get the credit yet, as most would accredit the rings to the defense - but the same was said about Brady at one point. Would surely put him on the right trajectory to work his way into an "all time greats" conversation but he'd obviously have a long way to go.

One of the potentially great young quarterbacks though.

the defense, Lynch and his coach.

A lot of people, myself included, really like Wilson. But it's premature to add him into the discussion of GOAT.

Big Ben started out with similar credentials and while he's continued to be good even when his team wasn't as talented around him, he isn't mentioned in the GOAT discussions (nor should he be). If pressed, I'd say Wilson is more similar to Ben than to Brady right now.

Wilson could continue to improve and lead his team, and eventually become one of the all time greats. Right now he's 2nd only to Luck among young QBs. Difference being Wilson was lucky enough to be drafted by a team otherwise incredibly talented, in a position where he could compete to start, and made the most of it.

How many QBs start their career with the surrounding talent Wilson has? That list will be incredibly short, perhaps nonexistent.

Not to take anything away from Wilson, but if he is to be discussed among the all time greats, he'll need to continue to succeed at a high level when the talent around him starts eroding. He's doing it without great receivers already and I like his chances over the long haul.

My first bolded:

Pete Carroll in the NFL without Wilson: 49-52, including 2-3 postseason

Pete Carroll in the NFL with Wilson: 42-13, including 6-1 postseason

Certainly Wilson isn't the only difference, but he has clearly made a substantial impact and deserves a lot of credit for it.

My second bolded: The talent surrounding Wilson is at least somewhat overstated IMO. The defensive talent is very strong for sure. But the offensive talent around him is subpar. Lynch has been great, but they didn't win much with Lynch and other QBs. And the rest of the offense, including OL, WRs, and TEs, have been well below average throughout Wilson's career to date. Despite that, Wilson has been a high quality passer, as evidenced by rate, efficiency, and advanced metrics for his career to date.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Wilson is still generally underrated, as evidenced by many comments in this thread.

Carroll, Lynch, and the foundation of the defense were in Seattle before Wilson. How much did they win then?

It is obviously too early to talk about him in the GOAT discussion. But if Seattle wins this Super Bowl, he is definitely in the discussion for best start to a QB career.

Come on now. Sherman was in Seattle for a year, his rookie year, when Wilson arrived. Thomas for two years, and he was drafted at age 20. Wagner camei in with Wilson. Chancellor's not much older.

In 2010 Seattle was 29th in DVOA. They moved to 10th in DVOA in 2011, then 2nd in 2012 (Wilson's rookie year) and then first by a mile in 2013 and first again in 2014. Wilson obviously had absolutely nothing to do with that massive improvement to the defense that coincided with his arrival, and it's silly to say that this massive improvement had nothing to do with the team's success.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

When I Get Home i'll Try To Bump The Thread Comparin Protosanchez To brady

 

[CapnJB]

I'm a huge Wilson fan but it's way too early for this conversation. I think the stats he is accumulating now will help validate the discussion down the road if he continues on the path that he is on. But for now, he's in the Hall of Very Good.

 

[Tau837]

Wilson is still generally underrated, as evidenced by many comments in this thread.

Carroll, Lynch, and the foundation of the defense were in Seattle before Wilson. How much did they win then?

It is obviously too early to talk about him in the GOAT discussion. But if Seattle wins this Super Bowl, he is definitely in the discussion for best start to a QB career.

Come on now. Sherman was in Seattle for a year, his rookie year, when Wilson arrived. Thomas for two years, and he was drafted at age 20. Wagner camei in with Wilson. Chancellor's not much older.

In 2010 Seattle was 29th in DVOA. They moved to 10th in DVOA in 2011, then 2nd in 2012 (Wilson's rookie year) and then first by a mile in 2013 and first again in 2014. Wilson obviously had absolutely nothing to do with that massive improvement to the defense that coincided with his arrival, and it's silly to say that this massive improvement had nothing to do with the team's success.

Good points. I was on my phone and couldn't easily look up the defensive core when I posted.

I was reacting to the notion that Wilson has simply been a beneficiary of the coach and surrounding talent. I think that grossly understates his impact.

 

[parrot]

In 55 career games Wilson has never had a victory where the opposition scored more than 24 points. He's 2-8 in games where the other team scored 24 points or more. His two victories came against 0-8 Tampa last year, 27-24 in overtime, and 0-8 Oakland this year, 30-24.

 

[TDorBust]

Wilson is still generally underrated, as evidenced by many comments in this thread.

Carroll, Lynch, and the foundation of the defense were in Seattle before Wilson. How much did they win then?

It is obviously too early to talk about him in the GOAT discussion. But if Seattle wins this Super Bowl, he is definitely in the discussion for best start to a QB career.

Did I miss something or the year that Wilson came into the league was:

Sherman in his second year

Wagner a rookie

Irvin a rookie

Wright in his second year

Lane a rookie

Maxwell in his second year

Thomas in his third year

Chancellor in his third year

Marshawn in his second year with Seattle

Browner in his second year with team

Seems like there was a lot different than just Wilson coming to the team, I like Wilson and I hope Marshawn is gone sooner than later so the weight is on his shoulders so we can see what he really can do.

 

[Run It Up]

When I Get Home i'll Try To Bump The Thread Comparin Protosanchez To brady

I just wanna say, I never saw anything in Sanchez, and still don't.

Not the case with Wilson. Just my observations.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

In 55 career games Wilson has never had a victory where the opposition scored more than 24 points. He's 2-8 in games where the other team scored 24 points or more. His two victories came against 0-8 Tampa last year, 27-24 in overtime, and 0-8 Oakland this year, 30-24.

awesome post

 

[cstu]

Wilson is still generally underrated, as evidenced by many comments in this thread.

Carroll, Lynch, and the foundation of the defense were in Seattle before Wilson. How much did they win then?

It is obviously too early to talk about him in the GOAT discussion. But if Seattle wins this Super Bowl, he is definitely in the discussion for best start to a QB career.

Did I miss something or the year that Wilson came into the league was:

Sherman in his second year

Wagner a rookie

Irvin a rookie

Wright in his second year

Lane a rookie

Maxwell in his second year

Thomas in his third year

Chancellor in his third year

Marshawn in his second year with Seattle

Browner in his second year with team

Seems like there was a lot different than just Wilson coming to the team, I like Wilson and I hope Marshawn is gone sooner than later so the weight is on his shoulders so we can see what he really can do.

Wilson can be a very good-great QB while also benefiting from joining a team at the right time, same as Brady and Roethlisberger.

 

[parrot]

In 55 career games Wilson has never had a victory where the opposition scored more than 24 points. He's 2-8 in games where the other team scored 24 points or more. His two victories came against 0-8 Tampa last year, 27-24 in overtime, and 0-8 Oakland this year, 30-24.

awesome post

In fairness, he did beat the Pats 24-23 his rookie year. But that's about as close as he gets to a shootout.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

When I Get Home i'll Try To Bump The Thread Comparin Protosanchez To brady

I just wanna say, I never saw anything in Sanchez, and still don't.

Not the case with Wilson. Just my observations.

I'm not knocking wilson like I was sanchez, just suggesting we slow our roll a bit.

he's being compared to the best qb ever in this thread, and it's become fairly common conversation to talk about his bank breaking 25m/yr contract (upcoming)

I happen to like wilson and would be happy to have the guy on my team if I didn't have to cut brady to do it, but in the earlier part of the season there were people losing faith in the 'hawks while they were giving up points en route to a 6-4 record through 10 games.

in those 10 games they gave up only 21.5 ppg

over the next 6 games they went 6-0 on their march to the playoffs while giving up 6.5 ppg --- what qb in the league wouldn't be winning these games?

(outside maybe cutler who would throw 3 picks and fumble twice)

even in this past playoff game against gb their d only gave up 22 against the best offense in the nfc despite wilson's 4 picks, and they still needed a miracle comeback in o/t to win.

what is he doing that he should be the highest paid player in the league?

if I stake trent dilfer to 21 pts and allow 8 I think he wins that game pretty easily.

 

[George Jefferson Airplane]

Nice Eminence.

 

[Underachievers]

Cannot believe that this is even being discussed. Completely over the top people. Cripes.....he is not even top 100 all time yet.

 

[proninja]

He could very well be this era's Joe Montana.

which would rank him behind brady

X

Wilson could have a great career and rank behind Brady all time

 

[FUBAR]

Wilson is still generally underrated, as evidenced by many comments in this thread.

Carroll, Lynch, and the foundation of the defense were in Seattle before Wilson. How much did they win then?

It is obviously too early to talk about him in the GOAT discussion. But if Seattle wins this Super Bowl, he is definitely in the discussion for best start to a QB career.

Come on now. Sherman was in Seattle for a year, his rookie year, when Wilson arrived. Thomas for two years, and he was drafted at age 20. Wagner camei in with Wilson. Chancellor's not much older.

In 2010 Seattle was 29th in DVOA. They moved to 10th in DVOA in 2011, then 2nd in 2012 (Wilson's rookie year) and then first by a mile in 2013 and first again in 2014. Wilson obviously had absolutely nothing to do with that massive improvement to the defense that coincided with his arrival, and it's silly to say that this massive improvement had nothing to do with the team's success.

Good points. I was on my phone and couldn't easily look up the defensive core when I posted.

I was reacting to the notion that Wilson has simply been a beneficiary of the coach and surrounding talent. I think that grossly understates his impact.

Simply? but you can't overlook it.

 

[The General]

He could very well be this era's Joe Montana.

which would rank him behind brady

X

Wilson could have a great career and rank behind Brady all time

Joe Montana is GOAT.