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Criticism of Israel (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter timschochet
- Start date
Sweet J
Footballguy
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timschochet
Footballguy
Well putting aside the hypocrisy (I doubt they're condemning any of the 2 dozen or so Muslim states who mistreat Christians, Jews, Hindus, and various Islamic minorities, etc. far worse than Israel treats Muslims, ) the statement calls for the eradication of the state of Israel.
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
They're lying. As tim pointed out, there are a bunch of Muslim states in the Middle East and BDS doesn't say squat about them.
the rover
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
No it isnt. It is them trying to justify being opposed to a two state solution.
The bottom line is they're opposed to it which is the exact opposite of what rover was saying.
It is also obvious what their intent is regarding this. From wikipedia...
Barghouti opposes the two-state solution.[14][15] He supports a one state solution encompassing all of what is now Israel and the Palestinian territories, in which these will be replaced by a "secular, democratic state... offering unequivocal equality in citizenship and individual and communal rights both to Palestinians (refugees included) and to Israeli Jews".[16][17] The descendants of Palestinian refugees will have the right to immigrate to this state, while Jews from the Jewish diaspora will not, in opposition to the current situation.[18] This solution has thus been criticized[who?] as being, effectively, a national Palestinian state
timschochet
Footballguy
Well first, thank you. You didn't use to, so I'm glad I've risen in your opinion.
But while I may be wrong, I assure you I'm not being dishonest. The first sentence of their statement reads:
A Jewish state in Palestine in any shape or form cannot but contravene the basic rights of the land's indigenous Palestinian population and perpetuate a system of racial discrimination that ought to be opposed categorically.
I do not know how to interpret this as anything other than calling for an end to the state of Israel.
Now it's important to note a distinction here: Israel is often compared (unfairly IMO) to South Africa's Apartheid regime. But the African National Council never once called for an end to South Africa, only for an end to Apartheid. The BDS here, just like every Palestinian organization that has ever existed, is calling for an end to the state of Israel itself.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
One more on Trump's anti-Semitism. Not because it's particularly revealing or says something that hasn't already been said in this thread ... but because it gets right to the point and because it's from David Roth, the best writer in America on the subject of Donald Trump by a country mile:
Sweet J
Footballguy
I don't know if it is saying "no Israel" or "the state that exists there must not be a religious-based state, and it must give the indigenous Palestinian population the exact same rights as the Jewish population." Those two things seem to be different from one another.
Sweet J
Footballguy
I'm assuming you know how many Muslims live in Israel, and how many Jewish people live in the majority Muslim states. The numbers of Jewish citizens living in Muslim states is infinitesimal compared to the number of Muslims/Palestinians in Israel.
It's not ok more majority muslim states to mistreat the jewish population. But the scale of the people affected isn't the same.
the rover
Footballguy
It is far more like apartheid than you’d like to admit. Is the end of the Jewish state of Israel the same as the end of Israel, the country? Some of us would believe that the country of Israel needs to stop its oppression of Palestinians.
fatguyinalittlecoat
Footballguy
I think that a lot of Jewish Israelis fear that these are the same. For a long time there were almost as many Palestinians in Israel + the territories combined as there were Jews in Israel. And the Palestinian population was growing faster. If Jewish Israeli voters were ever outnumbered by Palestinians, the country would change dramatically and be more like its neighbors in the Middle East.
Not that any of this is a good excuse for the mistreatment of Palestinians. But the fear isn’t ridiculous.
timschochet
Footballguy
I believe that ending the Jewish State of Israel ends the state of Israel, yes. But I also believe that Israel can and should stop its oppression of Palestinians. I don’t find these solutions to be opposed, though as I noted yesterday there is an inherent contradiction.
The best and perhaps only solution would be a two state solution in which Palestine could be a separate state made up of Gaza, the West Bank, and part of Jerusalem. The solution proposed by Tlaib and Omar, involving a right of return to Israel for all Palestinians, is unworkable.
timschochet
Footballguy
Anyhow Jared Kushner will solve it.
the rover
Footballguy
Because that would be an admission of the wrongful expulsion and genocide of Palestinians?
the rover
Footballguy
Sounds like the argument white supremacists make about brown people in the US.
timschochet
Footballguy
the rover
Footballguy
Like Central American immigrants will destroy the US?
Look, I'm not anti-semitic. I'm the descendant of German Jews who fled pogroms in Lithuania. But this is totally hypocritical. Israel is justifying human rights violations, occupation and oppression based on what? It won't be able to continue running a right-wing religious state and will be outnumbered in a democratic country and lose power? And people shouldn't even be able to use their free speech or purchasing power to oppose this right wing regime or protest occupation and human rights violations? I'm truly disgusted that we can't even have a conversation about how wrong this is without people being painted as anti-semites. If this is what's necessary for a Jewish state in Israel to continue, maybe it's time for a change.
No worries. Trump declared himself King of Israel today--I'm sure he'll solve it.
timschochet
Footballguy
The saddest thing about this post is that you feel the need to assure me that you’re not anti-Semitic. It’s pathetic that people can’t criticize Israel without having to face that accusation.
As for the rest of it- Israel is not the USA. It’s a Jewish state, but that means Jews as an ethnicity not a religion. The moment it becomes a religious state I will stop supporting it. Israel has always been surrounded by enemies bent on its destruction. If they granted the Palestinians the right of return the Jews would be swamped, the existing government destroyed, and a Muslim state would emerge: a corrupt religious dictatorship without freedom. I know this because there has never been a state in the history of this world that had a Muslim majority that has not been a corrupt religious dictatorship without freedom. So yes, the right of return would destroy the state of Israel.
The occupation of Gaza and the West Bank is a separate issue. Israel should end that today.
the rover
Footballguy
I agree. But the first thing that happens when anyone criticizes Israel is that they get painted as an anti-semite. When you compare Israeli occupation and oppression to apartheid, you're labeled anti-semitic. God help you if you bring up ghettos.
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the rover
Footballguy
Iran up until 1979. Corrupt, non-religious monarchy with a significant amount of individual freedom. Population was a Muslim majority since the 11th century.
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timschochet
Footballguy
I don’t think either is anti-Semitic. But on the other hand I don’t think they fit either. There is oppression of the Palestinians going on in the occupied territories, no doubt of that. But it’s not equivalent to the bantustans or race laws of Apartheid, and it’s not equivalent to the Nazi ghettoes either.
Better analogies would be the British occupation of India in the 19th century, or the American relocation of Native Americans in that same century. But neither analogy is really that apt either. This is historically a unique situation.
timschochet
Footballguy
Not true. The Shah’s monarchy was completely religious; Sunnis and Kurds were terribly mistreated under the law. There was a secret police, SAVAK, which operated like the Gestapo. And while there was more individual freedom than under the Ayatollahs, it’s pretty relative; there wasn’t any at all for the common fellaheen who represented around 90% of the population outside of the big cities like Tehran and Tabriz.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
There is zero doubt in my mind this is what would happen.
Just look at the palestinian authority. Not exactly a model of freedom.
That's the main reason why tlaibs comments were so phony.
the rover
Footballguy
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is not a good idea. People are going to rightly and understandably give you the side-eye at a minimum if you go down that road. I'm a pro-Israel guy and I have no issues with comparisons to South Africa or whatever, but the Nazi thing is too edgy to take seriously.the rover said:
Lutherman2112
Footballguy
Thank you for pointing this out. This is the reason why tim was the first person I put on ignore.
Mazel Tov, Trump. You’ve Revived the Jewish Left.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/24/opinion/sunday/trump-jews.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/24/opinion/sunday/trump-jews.html
The reason there are so few Jews in Arab countries is because the Jewish population was forced out. Not discussed much in the anti-Israel crowd.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/jehadabusalim/status/1194690117966929921
Harvard students walked out in protest from a lecture by Israeli ambassador Dani Dayan entitled “the Legal Strategy for Israeli Settlement,” or in other words (the legal strategy to violate international law!).
Harvard students walked out in protest from a lecture by Israeli ambassador Dani Dayan entitled “the Legal Strategy for Israeli Settlement,” or in other words (the legal strategy to violate international law!).
ren hoek
Footballguy
Joe Summer
Footballguy
"Mr. Bolton has become very, very rich and is in the position he's in because of his unconditional support for the Israeli lobby. He is their man on the ground, in the White House. The same thing is largely true for Mr. Pompeo. He has his hands out for money from the Israeli lobby, the Saudis and others. I think the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) and it's subordinate elements or affiliated elements that represent enormous quantities of money that over many years have cultivated an enormous influence in power in Congress."
The above is a quote from a senior adviser at the Pentagon who was recently appointed by acting Secretary Of Defense Christopher Miller.
Republicans were outraged when Rep. Ilhan Omar made similar comments. Their silence is noteworthy today.
The above is a quote from a senior adviser at the Pentagon who was recently appointed by acting Secretary Of Defense Christopher Miller.
Republicans were outraged when Rep. Ilhan Omar made similar comments. Their silence is noteworthy today.
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