What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.

Cuban: "NCAA doesn't need to exist" "D-league better&# (1 Viewer)

They could start by changing the name from the "D" League. A lot of these kids are used to D's and they've never been a positive.

The NBA needs to decide if they want to go full-blown and invest in a minor league like hockey and baseball. Sharing players and me-first attitude over team doesn't work.

Having a minor league team that shares the same coaching philosophy as the big club gives them a chance to evaluate and move players up and down as necessary. The reason it's a joke is because they tried to do it on the cheap which rarely works in business. You need to do it the right way.

The NBA should control what they can control.
:thumbup:

 
You're right about one thing. I don't know how the anti-trust acts would apply to this particular situation. Perhaps you can explain.
See Haywood vs the NBA and Clarett vs the NFL.

Haywood challenged this decision by commencing an antitrust action against the NBA. As part of his claim against the NBA, Haywood argued that the conduct of the NBA was a "group boycott" and a violation of the Sherman antitrust Act The central issue that had to be determined was whether the NBA draft policy was a restraint on trade and therefore was illegal in accordance with the Sherman Act.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1621954

FACTS7. The defendant, a professional football league, engages in various forms of interstate commerce and is subject to federal antitrust laws. The NFL enjoys a monopoly over professional football in the United States.

8. The NFL is a distinct market for professional football for which there are no reasonable substitutes in the United States.

9. The NFL began operating in 1920 as the American Professional Football Association, an unincorporated association comprised of member clubs which owned and operated professional football teams.

10. At present, the NFL is composed of thirty-two (32) separately incorporated clubs in cities throughout the United States. Representatives of each of the clubs form the NFL Management Committee, which performs various administrative functions such as organizing and scheduling games, and promulgating rules.

11. Until 1968, the NFL's operations were unilaterally controlled by the club owners.

12. In 1968, the NLRB recognized the National Football League Players Association ("NFPLA") as a labor organization within the meaning of 29 U.S.C. Section 152(5).2

13. In 1993, the NFL Management Committee and the NFPLA negotiated a Collective Bargaining Agreement ("CBA"), which has been extended three times and will not expire until the 2007 season.

14. The NFL bylaws include a rule prohibiting any player who has not completed three college seasons, or is not three years removed from high school graduation, from joining the NFL ("the Rule").

15. The CBA, which comprises 292 pages, 61 articles, appendices from A through N, and 357 sections, does not contain the Rule.

16. The Rule is not the product of bona fide arm's length negotiation between the NFL and the NFLPA.

17. The purpose of the Rule is to perpetuate a system whereby college football serves as an efficient and free farm system for the NFL by preventing potential players from selling their services to the NFL until they have completed three college seasons.

18. Clarett was born on October 29, 1983 and graduated high school in December 2001.

19. While in high school, Clarett was a member of his school=s football team. Among the honors he received was selection as the USA Today Offensive Player of the Year after his senior season, as well as being chosen as "Mr. Football" by the Associated Press. During his high school career, Clarett ran for 4,675 yards and 65 touchdowns.

20. After he graduated from high school, Clarett enrolled in Ohio State University ("OSU").

21. During the 2002-2003 football season, Clarett was a first-year member of the OSU Football Team ("Team").

22. The Team and Clarett enjoyed complete success during the 2002-2003 football season, winning all fourteen of their games, the Fiesta Bowl, and the undisputed national championship.

23. Clarett rushed for over 1,200 yards and scored 18 touchdowns. Among his honors, Clarett was named to several 2003 preseason All-America teams, voted the No. 1 running back in college football by the Sporting News, named a first-team All-Big Ten pick, and was named Big Ten Freshman of the Year.

24. Clarett was interested in entering the 2003 National Football League Draft ("2003 Draft") but was prevented from doing so by the Rule.

25. Representatives of the NFL, including Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, stated publicly that the NFL would not let Clarett enter the 2003 Draft or any draft prior to his senior year at OSU.

26. The NFL is the only major professional sport, unlike baseball, basketball or hockey, which prohibits the drafting of players who have not completed three college seasons or who are not three years removed from high school graduation.

27. As a result of the NFL=s position on this issue, Clarett did not declare himself eligible for the 2003 Draft and re-enrolled at OSU.

28. Clarett is currently enrolled in his second year at Ohio State.

29. Playing football professionally is the only means by which Clarett can profit from his athletic ability.

30. There is no other league of professional football that is comparable to the NFL.

31. Had Clarett been eligible for the 2003 Draft, it is almost certain he would have been selected in the beginning of the First Round and would have agreed to a contract and signing bonus worth millions of dollars.

COUNT ONE

32. Plaintiff hereby incorporates Paragraphs One through Thirty-One as if each were set forth in full.

33. The Sherman Act declares illegal, among other things, "every contract, combination . . . or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several states."

34. The Rule is a per se violation of the Sherman Act.

35. The Rule is a group boycott and a concerted refusal to deal with individuals such as Clarett.

36. The Rule substantially burdens competition without advancing any important interest of active football players as employees.

37. The restraint the Rule imposes is justified by no legitimate business purpose.

38. The Rule is harmful to competition as it provides for a total exclusion of players who have not completed three college seasons or are not three years removed from high school graduation, notwithstanding their ability to perform in the market and compete for available positions in the league.

39. The Rule is not expressly part of the existing CBA, is not the product of bona fide arms-length negotiation, and is, thus, not subject to the nonstatutory labor exemption to the antitrust laws.

40. Moreover, the Rule does not concern wages, hours or other terms and conditions of employment and is not a mandatory subject of collective bargaining within the meaning of the National Labor Relations Act (29 U.S.C. §§151-169).

41. In addition, the direct effect of the Rule is a restraint of amateur athletes who were strangers to the collective bargaining process between the NFL and NFLPA without advancing any important union goal. Thus, the Rule is unlawful.

42. Defendant's actions constitute concerted conduct and an unreasonable restraint of trade, in violation of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. '1 et seq. and the Clayton Act, 15 U.S.C. §15.

43. As a direct result of defendant's unlawful conduct, Clarett has suffered substantial loss and damage.
How do they apply here?

 
The d league needs an overhaul before it would be viable. Have each NBA team own a d league team as its farm team. Allow teams to sign players to minor league contracts.

If the team I root for has an actual farm team, I'd have an actual interest in the league. I'd follow, watch games and go to games if there was a team in my area.
They have this now. It's the NCAA. And it's a trillion times more popular than the d league ever could be.
Which team is Orlando's farm team?

 
You're right about one thing. I don't know how the anti-trust acts would apply to this particular situation. Perhaps you can explain.
See Haywood vs the NBA and Clarett vs the NFL.

Haywood challenged this decision by commencing an antitrust action against the NBA. As part of his claim against the NBA, Haywood argued that the conduct of the NBA was a "group boycott" and a violation of the Sherman antitrust Act The central issue that had to be determined was whether the NBA draft policy was a restraint on trade and therefore was illegal in accordance with the Sherman Act.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=1621954

FACTS7. The defendant, a professional football league, engages in various forms of interstate commerce and is subject to federal antitrust laws. The NFL enjoys a monopoly over professional football in the United States.

8. The NFL is a distinct market for professional football for which there are no reasonable substitutes in the United States.

9. The NFL began operating in 1920 as the American Professional Football Association, an unincorporated association comprised of member clubs which owned and operated professional football teams.

10. At present, the NFL is composed of thirty-two (32) separately incorporated clubs in cities throughout the United States. Representatives of each of the clubs form the NFL Management Committee, which performs various administrative functions such as organizing and scheduling games, and promulgating rules.

11. Until 1968, the NFL's operations were unilaterally controlled by the club owners.

12. In 1968, the NLRB recognized the National Football League Players Association ("NFPLA") as a labor organization within the meaning of 29 U.S.C. Section 152(5).2

13. In 1993, the NFL Management Committee and the NFPLA negotiated a Collective Bargaining Agreement ("CBA"), which has been extended three times and will not expire until the 2007 season.

14. The NFL bylaws include a rule prohibiting any player who has not completed three college seasons, or is not three years removed from high school graduation, from joining the NFL ("the Rule").

15. The CBA, which comprises 292 pages, 61 articles, appendices from A through N, and 357 sections, does not contain the Rule.

16. The Rule is not the product of bona fide arm's length negotiation between the NFL and the NFLPA.

17. The purpose of the Rule is to perpetuate a system whereby college football serves as an efficient and free farm system for the NFL by preventing potential players from selling their services to the NFL until they have completed three college seasons.

18. Clarett was born on October 29, 1983 and graduated high school in December 2001.

19. While in high school, Clarett was a member of his school=s football team. Among the honors he received was selection as the USA Today Offensive Player of the Year after his senior season, as well as being chosen as "Mr. Football" by the Associated Press. During his high school career, Clarett ran for 4,675 yards and 65 touchdowns.

20. After he graduated from high school, Clarett enrolled in Ohio State University ("OSU").

21. During the 2002-2003 football season, Clarett was a first-year member of the OSU Football Team ("Team").

22. The Team and Clarett enjoyed complete success during the 2002-2003 football season, winning all fourteen of their games, the Fiesta Bowl, and the undisputed national championship.

23. Clarett rushed for over 1,200 yards and scored 18 touchdowns. Among his honors, Clarett was named to several 2003 preseason All-America teams, voted the No. 1 running back in college football by the Sporting News, named a first-team All-Big Ten pick, and was named Big Ten Freshman of the Year.

24. Clarett was interested in entering the 2003 National Football League Draft ("2003 Draft") but was prevented from doing so by the Rule.

25. Representatives of the NFL, including Commissioner Paul Tagliabue, stated publicly that the NFL would not let Clarett enter the 2003 Draft or any draft prior to his senior year at OSU.

26. The NFL is the only major professional sport, unlike baseball, basketball or hockey, which prohibits the drafting of players who have not completed three college seasons or who are not three years removed from high school graduation.

27. As a result of the NFL=s position on this issue, Clarett did not declare himself eligible for the 2003 Draft and re-enrolled at OSU.

28. Clarett is currently enrolled in his second year at Ohio State.

29. Playing football professionally is the only means by which Clarett can profit from his athletic ability.

30. There is no other league of professional football that is comparable to the NFL.

31. Had Clarett been eligible for the 2003 Draft, it is almost certain he would have been selected in the beginning of the First Round and would have agreed to a contract and signing bonus worth millions of dollars.

COUNT ONE

32. Plaintiff hereby incorporates Paragraphs One through Thirty-One as if each were set forth in full.

33. The Sherman Act declares illegal, among other things, "every contract, combination . . . or conspiracy, in restraint of trade or commerce among the several states."

34. The Rule is a per se violation of the Sherman Act.

35. The Rule is a group boycott and a concerted refusal to deal with individuals such as Clarett.

36. The Rule substantially burdens competition without advancing any important interest of active football players as employees.

37. The restraint the Rule imposes is justified by no legitimate business purpose.

38. The Rule is harmful to competition as it provides for a total exclusion of players who have not completed three college seasons or are not three years removed from high school graduation, notwithstanding their ability to perform in the market and compete for available positions in the league.

39. The Rule is not expressly part of the existing CBA, is not the product of bona fide arms-length negotiation, and is, thus, not subject to the nonstatutory labor exemption to the antitrust laws.

40. Moreover, the Rule does not concern wages, hours or other terms and conditions of employment and is not a mandatory subject of collective bargaining within the meaning of the National Labor Relations Act (29 U.S.C. §§151-169).

41. In addition, the direct effect of the Rule is a restraint of amateur athletes who were strangers to the collective bargaining process between the NFL and NFLPA without advancing any important union goal. Thus, the Rule is unlawful.

42. Defendant's actions constitute concerted conduct and an unreasonable restraint of trade, in violation of the Sherman Act, 15 U.S.C. '1 et seq. and the Clayton Act, 15 U.S.C. §15.

43. As a direct result of defendant's unlawful conduct, Clarett has suffered substantial loss and damage.
How do they apply here?
It seems analogous. Clarett was suing over the waiting period that the NFL and the NFLPA collectively bargained for under the Sherman and Clayton Acts. He won at the district level, and it took the Second Circuit to distinguish between employers and future employees for him to lose the case, if I'm reading it correctly. It's like suing over the one-year waiting period between the NBA and the NBA Player's Association.

Maybe?

I'm not sure you guys can't really find common ground on this.

 
How does Cuban propose the D-league attract top college coaches too. Because that's part of the deal if you're a top player. You get to play for a coach that has a winning program.

 
heckmanm said:
Christo said:
Why attack the NCAA when the NBA has it within its power to change the dynamic?
:goodposting: Isn't the one-and-done rule imposed from the NBA side as it is? I think the D-league has the same rule, so it seems like it would be on the NBA to change it.
This is what I don't understand about Cuban's rant. He is taking a shot at the NCAA but it is the NBA that institutes 1 and done. For all the flaws that the NCAA you can't really fault them for kids leaving college early. If you don't want kids to go to college provide an alternative. If you don't want them to leave college early make a rule like the NFL has. Don't complain about a problem that only your organization can fix unless you are complaining about your organization.

 
heckmanm said:
Christo said:
Why attack the NCAA when the NBA has it within its power to change the dynamic?
:goodposting: Isn't the one-and-done rule imposed from the NBA side as it is? I think the D-league has the same rule, so it seems like it would be on the NBA to change it.
This is what I don't understand about Cuban's rant. He is taking a shot at the NCAA but it is the NBA that institutes 1 and done. For all the flaws that the NCAA you can't really fault them for kids leaving college early. If you don't want kids to go to college provide an alternative. If you don't want them to leave college early make a rule like the NFL has. Don't complain about a problem that only your organization can fix unless you are complaining about your organization.
Exactly! I despise the NCAA as an organization, but they have absolutely nothing to do with the NBA's rule about drafting age...

Aside from getting a free year of development, the NBA also gets players coming in with an established fan base. I live in Kentucky, and there are tons of John Wall and Anthony Davis jerseys sold here that would never have been sold if they had went straight to the league. I'm sure it will be the same way with Wiggins and Parker etc. at their schools.

 
NCAA brands will always be enormously marketable to alumni. There's nothing the NBA can do to make an Indiana graduate more interested in the Fort Wayne Mad Ants than the Hoosiers.

The D-League isn't the future. The future is NCAA players getting paid one way or another.

 
what happens to the guys who had a ton of hype never pan out and now dont have a degree?
How would it be any different than if they went one and done? They still wouldn't have a degree.
well if you go one and done you are on most cases going to get drafted in the 1st round, or early second and are going to get paid
Didn't just about all of the guys who did jump straight from HS to the NBA before they instituted the one-and-done system get drafted high?

 
what happens to the guys who had a ton of hype never pan out and now dont have a degree?
How would it be any different than if they went one and done? They still wouldn't have a degree.
well if you go one and done you are on most cases going to get drafted in the 1st round, or early second and are going to get paid
Didn't just about all of the guys who did jump straight from HS to the NBA before they instituted the one-and-done system get drafted high?
Yep. They probably had a higher average draft position, too.

 
I'd imagine that the D League has much better talent on average than DI since most D League guys were among the better college players not drafted. But people still care about the NCAA so it's probably a better showcase to play in.

 
what happens to the guys who had a ton of hype never pan out and now dont have a degree?
How would it be any different than if they went one and done? They still wouldn't have a degree.
well if you go one and done you are on most cases going to get drafted in the 1st round, or early second and are going to get paid
Didn't just about all of the guys who did jump straight from HS to the NBA before they instituted the one-and-done system get drafted high?
Yep. They probably had a higher average draft position, too.
One problem is the D League guys don't make much money. They're making between 30-45K when you figure everything. The real NBA prospects are getting paid a lot more by Kentucky or Memphis. I went to a DI school that wasn't a basketball powerhouse and every one of our players had a new SUV. Now Europe probably pays more than the NCAA.

 
How would it be better to send an 17/17 year kid to a league with a bunch of goons who are older, stronger, bigger and more then likely jealous. The D league is far less popular and doesn't even come close to having the same comforts and benifits as high profile schools in college.
Benn that way in minor league hockey and baseball forever.

 
The d league needs an overhaul before it would be viable. Have each NBA team own a d league team as its farm team. Allow teams to sign players to minor league contracts.

If the team I root for has an actual farm team, I'd have an actual interest in the league. I'd follow, watch games and go to games if there was a team in my area.
Many of the teams already do own their won D-League team, or have exclusive deals with them for holding players. A few D-League teams have deals with multiple NBA franchises, but that is essentially going away.

For example, the Golden State Warriors also have the Santa Cruz Warriors. They regularly will send players down for assignment for a game or two then call them back up, Kent Bazemore, who was recently traded to the Lakers, was one that they did this to occassionally. He was at the end of the bench for Golden State, so every so often, they would send him to Santa Cruz for a game or two to get more game experience then cal lhim right back up. They've done it before when they had a 3 day break but Santa Cruz had a game in that window... send him down on Tuesday, he plays Tuesday night, then cal lhim back up Wednesday and he dresses for the Thursday Golden State game.

The GM/Coaches all meet regularly to make sure there is a clear philosophy being taught, etc.

IIRC, the NBA team can only have a certain number of exclusive rights players on a D-league team, so the rest of the players that are there are essentially trying to showcase themselves for other NBA teams.

 
The d league needs an overhaul before it would be viable. Have each NBA team own a d league team as its farm team. Allow teams to sign players to minor league contracts.

If the team I root for has an actual farm team, I'd have an actual interest in the league. I'd follow, watch games and go to games if there was a team in my area.
Many of the teams already do own their won D-League team, or have exclusive deals with them for holding players. A few D-League teams have deals with multiple NBA franchises, but that is essentially going away.

For example, the Golden State Warriors also have the Santa Cruz Warriors. They regularly will send players down for assignment for a game or two then call them back up, Kent Bazemore, who was recently traded to the Lakers, was one that they did this to occassionally. He was at the end of the bench for Golden State, so every so often, they would send him to Santa Cruz for a game or two to get more game experience then cal lhim right back up. They've done it before when they had a 3 day break but Santa Cruz had a game in that window... send him down on Tuesday, he plays Tuesday night, then cal lhim back up Wednesday and he dresses for the Thursday Golden State game.

The GM/Coaches all meet regularly to make sure there is a clear philosophy being taught, etc.

IIRC, the NBA team can only have a certain number of exclusive rights players on a D-league team, so the rest of the players that are there are essentially trying to showcase themselves for other NBA teams.
Yes but it is a half ### system. The NBA is still limited to a 15 man roster whether they are playing in the NBA or the D. I'd want to see that changed to a 30 man roster with a true farm team. Like the NHL and the AHL or MLB and their AAA affiliates. Right now there are maybe a half dozen players in the D that are under contract in the NBA.

In your example, Any player on Santa Cruz that isn't under contract by GS (don't think there is anyone now?) can be signed to any team. That isn't a farm team.

 
I think that the possibility of increasing the age limit to 20 or two years removed from high school, should be challenged in court by individual players. How the NBA can tell teams that they can't draft the best 18-year-old adult available is ridiculous. The players union is fine with it because that means more roster spots for the 30-year-old journeyman, but that's not how the league should work. This Parker kid should be in the NBA right now, no reason he has to go to Duke for a year IMO. This is not football where college is essential in learning the games and getting physically better, in basketball these kids are ready to contribute right away.

College hoops isn't what it was in the golden age of the 70s and 80s, it is watered-down and largely uninteresting these days. I don't understand why players can't bypass college and play in a "D league" if they wanted, let teams draft them but not allow them to be on an NBA roster for one or two years or whatever. Or let them be drafted at 18 and either go to college, or to a D league...let the player make the choice but let teams have the rights for 2 years like hockey and baseball do.

I don't like that players go to the pros after one year, or that Garnett and Kobe among others completely bypassed college, but that is something that is me being selfish as a fan. If you have Jabari Parker coming out of high school and he's the best amateur on the planet, he should be able to get paid for playing basketball.
What would be the basis of their challenge?
Right to work law and age discrimination. Does Microsoft or GE place age restrictions on employment?
"Right to work" laws allow people to enter union shops without being in the union and age discrimination doesn't apply to anyone under 40.
What about the Sherman and Clayton anti-trust acts?
Non-statutory labor exemption. This isn't a novel legal issue. It's pretty settled.

 
The d league needs an overhaul before it would be viable. Have each NBA team own a d league team as its farm team. Allow teams to sign players to minor league contracts.

If the team I root for has an actual farm team, I'd have an actual interest in the league. I'd follow, watch games and go to games if there was a team in my area.
Many of the teams already do own their won D-League team, or have exclusive deals with them for holding players. A few D-League teams have deals with multiple NBA franchises, but that is essentially going away.

For example, the Golden State Warriors also have the Santa Cruz Warriors. They regularly will send players down for assignment for a game or two then call them back up, Kent Bazemore, who was recently traded to the Lakers, was one that they did this to occassionally. He was at the end of the bench for Golden State, so every so often, they would send him to Santa Cruz for a game or two to get more game experience then cal lhim right back up. They've done it before when they had a 3 day break but Santa Cruz had a game in that window... send him down on Tuesday, he plays Tuesday night, then cal lhim back up Wednesday and he dresses for the Thursday Golden State game.

The GM/Coaches all meet regularly to make sure there is a clear philosophy being taught, etc.

IIRC, the NBA team can only have a certain number of exclusive rights players on a D-league team, so the rest of the players that are there are essentially trying to showcase themselves for other NBA teams.
Yes but it is a half ### system. The NBA is still limited to a 15 man roster whether they are playing in the NBA or the D. I'd want to see that changed to a 30 man roster with a true farm team. Like the NHL and the AHL or MLB and their AAA affiliates. Right now there are maybe a half dozen players in the D that are under contract in the NBA.

In your example, Any player on Santa Cruz that isn't under contract by GS (don't think there is anyone now?) can be signed to any team. That isn't a farm team.
I would completely agree with this.

 
Yes but it is a half ### system. The NBA is still limited to a 15 man roster whether they are playing in the NBA or the D. I'd want to see that changed to a 30 man roster with a true farm team. Like the NHL and the AHL or MLB and their AAA affiliates. Right now there are maybe a half dozen players in the D that are under contract in the NBA.In your example, Any player on Santa Cruz that isn't under contract by GS (don't think there is anyone now?) can be signed to any team. That isn't a farm team.
Who benefits from that?

There's not enough NBA-caliber players out there that every team needs the rights to 30 guys. The teams are better off being able to pick from throughout the D-League if they have an injury situation, and players are better off not being bound to a single NBA team.

 
Is there any penalty for schools giving scholarships to players that are mostly one and done like Kentucky? Does the NCAA take away scholarships or does the non graduation rate hurt the college? Hearing Cuban today it sounds like the one and done kids are showing up to campus playing basketball and really not going to class. I knew that it was a farce but didn't realize it was such a F you to the colleges.

 
Yes but it is a half ### system. The NBA is still limited to a 15 man roster whether they are playing in the NBA or the D. I'd want to see that changed to a 30 man roster with a true farm team. Like the NHL and the AHL or MLB and their AAA affiliates. Right now there are maybe a half dozen players in the D that are under contract in the NBA.

In your example, Any player on Santa Cruz that isn't under contract by GS (don't think there is anyone now?) can be signed to any team. That isn't a farm team.
Who benefits from that?

There's not enough NBA-caliber players out there that every team needs the rights to 30 guys. The teams are better off being able to pick from throughout the D-League if they have an injury situation, and players are better off not being bound to a single NBA team.
The teams would benefit and the D would benefit financially.

Teams would be able to develop players in their own systems, with their own coaching staffs instead of having rookies rot away on the bench. Plenty of players coming out of college are not ready for the NBA game. Euro players could come over and get some seasoning in the North American game before getting thrown to the wolves. No more need to use 2nd round picks on random Euros just to stash away because they have no roster space. It would benefit a team to call up a 3rd/4th string PG that knows their system instead of a random plug who they just throw out their.

You're right that most of them wouldn't be NBA caliber. Just like AHL hockey players aren't quite NHL caliber or AAA baseball players are not MLB caliber. That is why they are minor leagues. There are also likely players who get over looked coming out of college who could be developed in role players but the lack of roster space prevents it.

I don't see the downside to it. Put the teams in smaller cities outside of the parent city and they would most definitely do better attendance wise than what the current league does.

The D League is pretty useless in its current state.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top