Darren McFadden: Dead legs (1 Viewer)

[ThePittbully]

EBF, just curious, whats your prediction on where DMC will fall among runningbacks at the end of this season? I'm in the "bust" crowd because I dont think he'll ever be a feature back or classified as "Elite", but I think he'll end up somewhere around 20th maybe. I see him being in a RBBC pretty much his whole career

RB15-25 seems like a reasonable estimate. He's a suped-up change of pace back who will break some long runs, but he's not the next great FF back. A decent option in redraft and survivor. A poor gamble at his cost in a dynasty draft.

I would say your assessment parallel's my own then. I do think he will have his share of big plays, maybe more than your average COP back but he will never be an elite talent and he's not worth the price tag that many are placing on him in dynasty

I think you guys are nailing DMC's floor. His ceiling is much, much higher.Don't forget that he is just 20 years old. The chicken legs and BMI still has time to grow.

I'd say his floor is MUCH lower than RB 20. He's a glorified Jerious Norwood, who may even be the better back

 

[jurb26]

EBF is loosing a lot of credibility because of this McFadden bashing IMO. I'm finding it harder and harder to take his stuff serious now.

 

[switz]

I'd say his floor is MUCH lower than RB 20. He's a glorified Jerious Norwood, who may even be the better back

See, when you throw out comments like that, it's hard to take anything you say seriously. If he were a glorified Norwood, he would have gone in the 2nd round, or maybe late first like Chris Johnson. But he didn't. He was a concensus first round pick, maybe not #1 on everyone's board, but definitely a first round value. Norwood was what a 4th?

 

[EBF]

EBF is loosing a lot of credibility because of this McFadden bashing IMO. I'm finding it harder and harder to take his stuff serious now.

Boohoo. Players can and will disappoint. There's nothing especially radical or controversial about my viewpoint on DMC.

 

[jurb26]

EBF is loosing a lot of credibility because of this McFadden bashing IMO. I'm finding it harder and harder to take his stuff serious now.

Boohoo. Players can and will disappoint. There's nothing especially radical or controversial about my viewpoint on DMC.

You can boohoo it all you want, but when you say things like:

Tell me, does BMI measure heart, desire and commitment? Comparing Robert Smith to DMC is an absolute joke.

All the heart and commitment in the world can't make you an elite athlete unless you were already born with freakish natural gifts.

You've lost a lot of credibility in my book.

 

[Burning Sensation]

EBF is loosing a lot of credibility because of this McFadden bashing IMO. I'm finding it harder and harder to take his stuff serious now.

 

[EBF]

You guys are just getting your panties in a bunch because I disagree with your take on McFadden. That's okay. I'll still accept your apology when time proves me right.

 

[jurb26]

You guys are just getting your panties in a bunch because I disagree with your take on McFadden. That's okay. I'll still accept your apology when time proves me right.

I could care less if you don't like McFadden as a football player. When yo say things like what I posted above however, you are just spouting inaccurate information and appear uninformed. That may in fact be the case give some of our past conversations in regards to the SEC. I do not think you watch enough SEC football (or at least watch it with an open eye) to make strong opinions on a guy like McFadden. Again, the above seems to confirm that. No matter what kind of football player you think McFadden will become. There is nobody (until now) that I have ever heard say he is anything less than an elite athlete.

 

[EBF]

You guys are just getting your panties in a bunch because I disagree with your take on McFadden. That's okay. I'll still accept your apology when time proves me right.

I could care less if you don't like McFadden as a football player. When yo say things like what I posted above however, you are just spouting inaccurate information and appear uninformed. That may in fact be the case give some of our past conversations in regards to the SEC. I do not think you watch enough SEC football (or at least watch it with an open eye) to make strong opinions on a guy like McFadden. Again, the above seems to confirm that. No matter what kind of football player you think McFadden will become. There is nobody (until now) that I have ever heard say he is anything less than an elite athlete.

When I talk about natural gifts, I'm talking about body type and instincts. McFadden has elite athletic ability, but he has it packed into a very bad frame. That's what I've been saying all along and that's why I think he'll disappoint people who are expecting the next LT/ADP/Faulk type back. McFadden is basically a very good version of a very bad type of back. He's a NASCAR engine trapped inside a minivan frame.

 

[Burning Sensation]

You guys are just getting your panties in a bunch because I disagree with your take on McFadden. That's okay. I'll still accept your apology when time proves me right.

My panties are not in a bunch, maybe a little knot, but not in a bunch. My problem is not your opinion of him, it is the amount of times you have said it. Your hatred for Mcfadden will always be legendary around here, just like you leading the Barlow love fest a few years back.

 

[Burning Sensation]

You guys are just getting your panties in a bunch because I disagree with your take on McFadden. That's okay. I'll still accept your apology when time proves me right.

I could care less if you don't like McFadden as a football player. When yo say things like what I posted above however, you are just spouting inaccurate information and appear uninformed. That may in fact be the case give some of our past conversations in regards to the SEC. I do not think you watch enough SEC football (or at least watch it with an open eye) to make strong opinions on a guy like McFadden. Again, the above seems to confirm that. No matter what kind of football player you think McFadden will become. There is nobody (until now) that I have ever heard say he is anything less than an elite athlete.

When I talk about natural gifts, I'm talking about body type and instincts. McFadden has elite athletic ability, but he has it packed into a very bad frame. That's what I've been saying all along and that's why I think he'll disappoint people who are expecting the next LT/ADP/Faulk type back. McFadden is basically a very good version of a very bad type of back. He's a NASCAR engine trapped inside a minivan frame.

Who is expecting that? Where you expecting AD to be the next Faulk/LT last year, i know i wasnt.

 

[Bizkiteer]

EBF - Sometimes personal dislike for a player can cloud judgement. I doubt you'll ever admit it openly, but that is what the core of the problem is with you. You seem hell bent to bash and say negative things about McFadden. So much so that you pull things from left field. Anyone that has seen him run in college knows he's an "elite athlete" and could also say "he was born with freakish natural gifts."

Again, for whatever reason your personal dislike for him is carrying over into everything you post or say. What people are mentioning now is that they are seeing through it all. Especially since you seem to carry on and on and on and on and...

 

[EBF]

You guys are just getting your panties in a bunch because I disagree with your take on McFadden. That's okay. I'll still accept your apology when time proves me right.

I could care less if you don't like McFadden as a football player. When yo say things like what I posted above however, you are just spouting inaccurate information and appear uninformed. That may in fact be the case give some of our past conversations in regards to the SEC. I do not think you watch enough SEC football (or at least watch it with an open eye) to make strong opinions on a guy like McFadden. Again, the above seems to confirm that. No matter what kind of football player you think McFadden will become. There is nobody (until now) that I have ever heard say he is anything less than an elite athlete.

When I talk about natural gifts, I'm talking about body type and instincts. McFadden has elite athletic ability, but he has it packed into a very bad frame. That's what I've been saying all along and that's why I think he'll disappoint people who are expecting the next LT/ADP/Faulk type back. McFadden is basically a very good version of a very bad type of back. He's a NASCAR engine trapped inside a minivan frame.

Who is expecting that? Where you expecting AD to be the next Faulk/LT last year, i know i wasnt.

There's no shortage of draft "experts" who will tell you that McFadden is the best player in the entire draft and a better prospect than Peterson. I've seen him go 1.01 in all of my rookie drafts and he just went at 1.07 in one of my initial dynasty leagues. I think it's safe to say there are a lot of people expecting McFadden to become a Pro Bowl type talent. As for my anti-McFadden argument, I'll rehash it here one more time for posterity's sake.

I'm always looking for value plays in my FF leagues. If you can find the next Frank Gore or MJD and get him before his price tag baloons, it's a huge boon to your dynasty team. So with that in mind, I've taken a long hard look at some recent breakout backs in hopes of finding a few common traits. Below is a list of recent running backs who emerged from marginal hype to become very good NFL players:

Maurice Jones-Drew (2nd round pick)

Clinton Portis (2nd round pick)

Frank Gore (3rd round)

Brian Westbrook (3rd round)

Marion Barber (4th round pick)

Rudi Johnson (4th round pick)

Michael Turner (5th round pick)

Willie Parker (UDFA)

Priest Holmes (UDFA)

What are some common traits among these guys? Are they all lightning quick with blazing speed?

No. Parker and Portis are 4.3 guys. Rudi and Gore are 4.6 guys. It's clear that a wide variety of speeds can be successful at the RB position in the NFL. Elite speed doesn't seem to be required for success. How about power?

Now we might be on to something. All of the guys on my list run hard with exceptional leg drive. Rudi Johnson is like a little ball of muscle. Marion Barber is a punishing runner with tremendous power. Maurice Jones-Drew owes a lot of his long runs to his ability to break tackles. Even a speed back like Brian Westbrook has a wide body with monster thighs and a very strong base. About the only guy on this list who doesn't have tremendous power is Parker. Perhaps not surprisingly, he's on the verge of losing his starting job.

It sure seems like NFL success favors squatty backs with powerful lower bodies. Maybe we can find a way to quantify that. Let's look at the "surprise" RB list again, only this time let's include the BMI score for each back:

Maurice Jones-Drew - 32.6

Clinton Portis - 31.1

Frank Gore - 32.9

Brian Westbrook - 30.9

Marion Barber - 30.0

Rudi Johnson - 30.7

Michael Turner - 34.0

Willie Parker - 30.0

Priest Holmes - 31.5

This is very interesting to me. Every one of the "surprise" RB's who emerged as a star in the past few years had a BMI of at least 30. I think this offers some evidence in support of my theory about power being an essential quality for a successful pro back. Whether you're talking about a speed back like Westbrook or a power back like Barber, they all have high BMI scores. For the most part, this holds true across the entire NFL landscape. There are relatively few elite backs with a BMI under 29.5.

That brings me to Darren McFadden. One of the first things that stood out to me when I started watching him was his awkward, gangly frame. He's skinny and he plays skinny. Yes he can lower his shoulder and initiate a violent collision, but I can't remember many plays where I saw him power through a tackle using leg strength. The idea that he lacks bulk and power is supported by his BMI score. At 6'1.2" and 211 pounds, his BMI comes out to 27.7. That's well below the average NFL starter. There are only a handful of relevant backs in the entire league whose BMI scores are so low.

So when I add my concerns about McFadden's power to my belief that power is essential for success at the RB position in the NFL, I reach the inevitable conclusion that McFadden is a risky prospect who's extremely unlikely to live up to his billing as a dominant franchise back.

I'm not quite sure which 2008 rookie RB will become the best pro player, but I suspect it will be one of the following:

Rashard Mendenhall - 32.2

Ray Rice - 30.3

Jonathan Stewart - 33.7

Felix Jones - 29.6

No matter who it is, I feel pretty confident that a lot of people will look back on this draft a few years from now and wonder how they fell for a giant piece of fool's gold named Darren McFadden. I don't completely hate DMC's game. His speed and acceleration are phenomenal. He has a chance to be a big time home run hitter at the next level. But will he be an elite workhorse RB? I don't think so. Will he be the best back from his draft class when the dust settles? I don't think so.

That's been my stance all along. I don't find it that radical or controversial. Time will tell.

 

[Burning Sensation]

How many RB's that were drafted in the top 10 that had a BMI of less than 28 ever busted?

 

[EBF]

How many RB's that were drafted in the top 10 that had a BMI of less than 28 ever busted?

If you want to call Reggie Bush a bust, he qualifies. Usually NFL teams are too smart to take low BMI RB's in the first round. There aren't many cases of it, although Adrian Peterson also has a less than ideal BMI at 28.3. McFadden fans will use that to support their optimism. I would argue that ADP has better weight distribution, thicker thighs, and much better functional running strength.

 

[EBF]

Here's one of my old posts on the topic of BMI:

I just compiled a quick list of BMI scores for the top 30 RBs in my PPR league. I got all of my heights and weights from NFL.com and used a BMI calculator from the following link: http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/.

The results:

Brian Westbrook - 29.1

LaDainian Tomlinson - 31.7

Clinton Portis - 31.1

Joseph Addai - 29.8

Adrian Peterson - 28.6

Jamal Lewis - 34.2

Frank Gore - 32.9

Marion Barber - 30.0

Willis McGahee - 31.5

Earnest Graham - 33.2

Reggie Bush - 27.5

Maurice Drew - 32.6

Edgerrin James - 29.8

Kenny Watson - 29.6

Steven Jackson - 29.7

Marshawn Lynch - 30.0

Ryan Grant - 29.6

LenDale White - 31.0

Chester Taylor - 29.7

Willie Parker - 30.0

Brandon Jacobs - 32.1

Thomas Jones - 30.8

Ronnie Brown - 31.5

Justin Fargas - 29.0

Adrian Peterson II - 30.1

Fred Taylor - 30.1

Kevin Jones - 30.9

Warrick Dunn - 27.6

DeShaun Foster - 30.1

DeAngelo Williams - 32.0

High: Jamal Lewis 34.2

Low: Reggie Bush 27.5

Average: 30.5

27 out of 30 RBs were between 28.6 and 33.2. That means 90% of the top 30 RBs in 2007 had a BMI between 28.6 and 33.2.

The only top 30 RB's in the NFL with a BMI lower than McFadden's are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn, neither of whom is a dominant workhorse back.

 

[Arnold. S]

How many RB's that were drafted in the top 10 that had a BMI of less than 28 ever busted?

If you want to call Reggie Bush a bust, he qualifies. Usually NFL teams are too smart to take low BMI RB's in the first round. There aren't many cases of it, although Adrian Peterson also has a less than ideal BMI at 28.3. McFadden fans will use that to support their optimism. I would argue that ADP has better weight distribution, thicker thighs, and much better functional running strength.

I agree with EBF 100% on the assessment of McFadden and his take on elite runners and their common attributes oh and also the discrepancy in physical makeup between McFadden and ADP are right on

 

[Arnold. S]

Here's one of my old posts on the topic of BMI:

I just compiled a quick list of BMI scores for the top 30 RBs in my PPR league. I got all of my heights and weights from NFL.com and used a BMI calculator from the following link: http://www.nhlbisupport.com/bmi/.

The results:

Brian Westbrook - 29.1

LaDainian Tomlinson - 31.7

Clinton Portis - 31.1

Joseph Addai - 29.8

Adrian Peterson - 28.6

Jamal Lewis - 34.2

Frank Gore - 32.9

Marion Barber - 30.0

Willis McGahee - 31.5

Earnest Graham - 33.2

Reggie Bush - 27.5

Maurice Drew - 32.6

Edgerrin James - 29.8

Kenny Watson - 29.6

Steven Jackson - 29.7

Marshawn Lynch - 30.0

Ryan Grant - 29.6

LenDale White - 31.0

Chester Taylor - 29.7

Willie Parker - 30.0

Brandon Jacobs - 32.1

Thomas Jones - 30.8

Ronnie Brown - 31.5

Justin Fargas - 29.0

Adrian Peterson II - 30.1

Fred Taylor - 30.1

Kevin Jones - 30.9

Warrick Dunn - 27.6

DeShaun Foster - 30.1

DeAngelo Williams - 32.0

High: Jamal Lewis 34.2

Low: Reggie Bush 27.5

Average: 30.5

27 out of 30 RBs were between 28.6 and 33.2. That means 90% of the top 30 RBs in 2007 had a BMI between 28.6 and 33.2.

The only top 30 RB's in the NFL with a BMI lower than McFadden's are Reggie Bush and Warrick Dunn, neither of whom is a dominant workhorse back.

If you were to put those three together, I would give the benefit of the doubt to Bush and Dunn on their chances of success just because of the height difference.

 

[Arnold. S]

EBF, just curious, whats your prediction on where DMC will fall among runningbacks at the end of this season? I'm in the "bust" crowd because I dont think he'll ever be a feature back or classified as "Elite", but I think he'll end up somewhere around 20th maybe. I see him being in a RBBC pretty much his whole career

RB15-25 seems like a reasonable estimate. He's a suped-up change of pace back who will break some long runs, but he's not the next great FF back. A decent option in redraft and survivor. A poor gamble at his cost in a dynasty draft.

I would say your assessment parallel's my own then. I do think he will have his share of big plays, maybe more than your average COP back but he will never be an elite talent and he's not worth the price tag that many are placing on him in dynasty

I think you guys are nailing DMC's floor. His ceiling is much, much higher.Don't forget that he is just 20 years old. The chicken legs and BMI still has time to grow.

I'd say his floor is MUCH lower than RB 20. He's a glorified Jerious Norwood, who may even be the better back

Norwood has shown some impressive footwork and leg drive ontop of his speed, which I can't say for McFadden

 

[Arnold. S]

now tell me which highlight's more impressive... watch the way Norwood shed tacklers, the power in his steps, and the way he finish off runs. Check the footwork around 3:15 mark. I know, Norwood's abilities are old news, but this is for comparison purposes. and also just keep in mind Norwood is also playing against much superior competition in the highlights.

Norwood:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rs9HH3wywkc...feature=related

McFadden

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XcssslTgHBQ

There is a chance that with the running scheme and the line Oakland has, McFadden can find openings to run through once in awhile and break some runs with his speed, but I've never found him to be very impressive in the 'skills' department of this so called skill position of playing the running back.

 

[cstu]

You guys are just getting your panties in a bunch because I disagree with your take on McFadden. That's okay. I'll still accept your apology when time proves me right.

Frankly, you're too caught up in your mathematical formulas to be objective about McFadden. I'll say it again - McFadden will gain weight and at 6-1, 211 all he needs to gain is 5lbs. and he'll have a 28.5 BMI.

 

[Arnold. S]

You guys are just getting your panties in a bunch because I disagree with your take on McFadden. That's okay. I'll still accept your apology when time proves me right.

Frankly, you're too caught up in your mathematical formulas to be objective about McFadden. I'll say it again - McFadden will gain weight and at 6-1, 211 all he needs to gain is 5lbs. and he'll have a 28.5 BMI.

if he can gain those lbs in his thighs then I think the view on him can be reconsidered

 

[massraider]

You guys are just getting your panties in a bunch because I disagree with your take on McFadden. That's okay. I'll still accept your apology when time proves me right.

Frankly, you're too caught up in your mathematical formulas to be objective about McFadden. I'll say it again - McFadden will gain weight and at 6-1, 211 all he needs to gain is 5lbs. and he'll have a 28.5 BMI.

The fact that he is 20 makes me think this is possible, if not probable.I hope you're right.

 

[ThePittbully]

I'd say his floor is MUCH lower than RB 20. He's a glorified Jerious Norwood, who may even be the better back

See, when you throw out comments like that, it's hard to take anything you say seriously. If he were a glorified Norwood, he would have gone in the 2nd round, or maybe late first like Chris Johnson. But he didn't. He was a concensus first round pick, maybe not #1 on everyone's board, but definitely a first round value. Norwood was what a 4th?

Its not Jerious' fault he didnt get to play in a gimmick wildcat offense his entire career. Watching tape on DMC it almost seems like any RB with superior speed could have put up the numbers he did. Felix Jones certainly did. If Felix had been lucky enough to be chosen as the #1 back on that team we'd be talking about Jones being on the Raiders and Mcfadden going to the Cowboys.

 

[LawFitz]

If Felix had been lucky enough to be chosen as the #1 back on that team we'd be talking about Jones being on the Raiders and Mcfadden going to the Cowboys.

And why exactly do you think it was luck that caused Felix to play second fiddle?Kiffin and the ZBS will make DMC into a star. Not as a traditional between the tackles workhorse but as a hybrid RB/WR.And again remember, he's only TWENTY years old. You don't think he's gonna gain weight in the next couple of years both because of maturing into a full grown man and because he's on a professional weight training program???This BMI stuff is analysis paralysis. He'll be 220+ within three years. What will his BMI be then?

 

[switz]

And why exactly do you think it was luck that caused Felix to play second fiddle?

I wouldn't say it was luck, but I would say it was timing. Had Felix been there ahead of McFadden, he would have been the primary RB.Honestly, when I see McFadden, I think Fred Taylor, Robert Smith - very very good RBs.When I see Felix I think LT, Faulk - great RBs.It's like Barry Sanders sitting behind Thurman Thomas at Oklahoma back in the day.Edited to add: I think McFadden's ability to throw the ball also kept him on the field more often as it added an element of confusion.

 

[One]

...whoops added this to the wrong thread

I haven't heard this mentioned much, but McFadden never did squats in college. Supposedly a knee injury in high school caused the Arkansas trainers to shy away from squats for all 3 years.

My knowledge of pro weight training slim, but I've heard a few of you raise some great points and opinions on BMI, weight training and McFadden's build.

What do you guys think?

-How will the added weight training effect him?

-Will his skinny legs fill out any?

-Will he gain leg drive?

Is his potential to overcome some of his lower-body issues being overlooked?

“People don’t understand, Darren is still developing,” said Conley, a 1992 Olympic gold medalist in the triple jump. “He’s only 20 now. He’s going to get stronger.”

Evidence of that is the 10-foot, 8-inch mark McFadden posted in the broad jump, Conley noted. It was second among the running backs but is an indication of how powerful McFadden’s legs are.

Some of that development was held back during his three years at Arkansas because of a knee injury he suffered in high school, Walker said.

“He wasn’t able to do squats in weightlifting until we got him,” Walker said. “He had a knee injury in high school and the strength coaches at Arkansas didn’t want to risk him doing squats while he was there. They have a great program there, but their goal is to make sure they get him on the field while he’s there.”

Walker said he showed McFadden how to do squats while they were training in McKinney, Texas, where McFadden also works with former Olympic sprinter Michael Johnson. Within a few minutes of learning how to do it, McFadden was doing reps with 315 pounds.

“Think about what’s going to happen now that he can spend more time training and has a really controlled regimen,” Walker said. “I think we’re just scratching the surface.”

Link

 

[EBF]

What do you guys think?

-How will the added weight training effect him?

-Will his skinny legs fill out any?

-Will he gain leg drive?

Is his potential to overcome some of his lower-body issues being overlooked?

I doubt he'll get much bigger. If you ask me, his weight problem has more to do with his frame than with his weight room habits. I found these photos from Raiders mini camp on Yahoo news: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/photo?slug=ccc...114&prov=ap

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/photo?slug=e8e...&prov=getty

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/photo?slug=f7c...&prov=getty

McFadden is V-shaped with broad shoulders and a big upper body, but he doesn't have much meat on his lower body. You can see how thin his legs are there. Very limited calf muscles. He has better thickness in his thighs, but is still more "long and lean" than short and compact. I think that's mostly a matter of genetics. Consider what Jonathan Stewart looked like when he was in high school:

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1060/stewartfq6.jpg

People who like McFadden want to believe that he'll succeed, so rather than admit that he has a frame problem they'll suggest he's going to get bigger because it's more comforting to their opinion of his prospects. Unfortunately, gaining bulk isn't as simple as drinking some protein shakes and lifting weights. Certain body types flat out aren't built to carry bulk.

Think about the difference between Randy Moss and Terrell Owens. Owens is a lot bigger and stronger. Do you think that's because he lifts more weights? Of course not. Moss is naturally slender and Owens is naturally bulky. They have different frames and different body types. Moss couldn't get as big as TO just by hitting the weight room because Moss doesn't have the natural capacity to carry that kind of bulk.

 

[Burning Sensation]

What do you guys think?-How will the added weight training effect him? -Will his skinny legs fill out any? -Will he gain leg drive? Is his potential to overcome some of his lower-body issues being overlooked?

People who like McFadden want to believe that he'll succeed, so rather than admit that he has a frame problem they'll suggest he's going to get bigger because it's more comforting to their opinion of his prospects.

And there are people who want to believe that he will not succeed, so they totally ignore any of a players positives and just keep repeating the same negatives over and over. Does the guy have a low BMI for a RB? Yeah sure, but it is less than 1 lower than Petersons, and he seems to be doing pretty well. Did he have a great vertical at the combine? Not really, and while squating might not get him noticably bigger legs, it will certainly help his leg strength.

 

[EBF]

What do you guys think?-How will the added weight training effect him? -Will his skinny legs fill out any? -Will he gain leg drive? Is his potential to overcome some of his lower-body issues being overlooked?

People who like McFadden want to believe that he'll succeed, so rather than admit that he has a frame problem they'll suggest he's going to get bigger because it's more comforting to their opinion of his prospects.

And there are people who want to believe that he will not succeed, so they totally ignore any of a players positives and just keep repeating the same negatives over and over. Does the guy have a low BMI for a RB? Yeah sure, but it is less than 1 lower than Petersons, and he seems to be doing pretty well. Did he have a great vertical at the combine? Not really, and while squating might not get him noticably bigger legs, it will certainly help his leg strength.

Where did I ignore the negatives? I've mentioned his elite speed and acceleration many times when talking about him. I also love the fact that he was an impact player in a very tough conference. I still see some MAJOR red flags that are being glossed over by his supporters.

 

[cstu]

What do you guys think?

-How will the added weight training effect him?

-Will his skinny legs fill out any?

-Will he gain leg drive?

Is his potential to overcome some of his lower-body issues being overlooked?

I doubt he'll get much bigger. If you ask me, his weight problem has more to do with his frame than with his weight room habits. I found these photos from Raiders mini camp on Yahoo news: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/photo?slug=ccc...114&prov=ap

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/photo?slug=e8e...&prov=getty

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/photo?slug=f7c...&prov=getty

McFadden is V-shaped with broad shoulders and a big upper body, but he doesn't have much meat on his lower body. You can see how thin his legs are there. Very limited calf muscles. He has better thickness in his thighs, but is still more "long and lean" than short and compact. I think that's mostly a matter of genetics. Consider what Jonathan Stewart looked like when he was in high school:

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/1060/stewartfq6.jpg

People who like McFadden want to believe that he'll succeed, so rather than admit that he has a frame problem they'll suggest he's going to get bigger because it's more comforting to their opinion of his prospects. Unfortunately, gaining bulk isn't as simple as drinking some protein shakes and lifting weights. Certain body types flat out aren't built to carry bulk.

Think about the difference between Randy Moss and Terrell Owens. Owens is a lot bigger and stronger. Do you think that's because he lifts more weights? Of course not. Moss is naturally slender and Owens is naturally bulky. They have different frames and different body types. Moss couldn't get as big as TO just by hitting the weight room because Moss doesn't have the natural capacity to carry that kind of bulk.

Of course Moss has a different body type than Owens, but I can't believe you'd say that Owens doesn't lift more weights than Moss. When is the last time you saw Moss doing sit ups in his driveway? McFadden is never going to look like Stewart - and he doesn't have to - but it's odd to think a 20 year old in an NFL weight lifting program can't develop more lower body strength. Probably not the best example given how his career has turned out is Kevin Jones who was about 6-0, 205 as a 19 year old freshman at VT and was 225 by the time he was in the NFL at age 22.

 

[Burning Sensation]

What do you guys think?-How will the added weight training effect him? -Will his skinny legs fill out any? -Will he gain leg drive? Is his potential to overcome some of his lower-body issues being overlooked?

People who like McFadden want to believe that he'll succeed, so rather than admit that he has a frame problem they'll suggest he's going to get bigger because it's more comforting to their opinion of his prospects.

And there are people who want to believe that he will not succeed, so they totally ignore any of a players positives and just keep repeating the same negatives over and over. Does the guy have a low BMI for a RB? Yeah sure, but it is less than 1 lower than Petersons, and he seems to be doing pretty well. Did he have a great vertical at the combine? Not really, and while squating might not get him noticably bigger legs, it will certainly help his leg strength.

Where did I ignore the negatives? I've mentioned his elite speed and acceleration many times when talking about him. I also love the fact that he was an impact player in a very tough conference. I still see some MAJOR red flags that are being glossed over by his supporters.

The previous poster just asked if anyone thinks doing squats for the first time in his life could improve his leg strength/size. An unbiased person doesnt respond to that by saying "People who like McFadden want to believe that he'll succeed, so rather than admit that he has a frame problem they'll suggest he's going to get bigger because it's more comforting to their opinion of his prospects."

 

[Teef]

I can't believe you'd say that Owens doesn't lift more weights than Moss. When is the last time you saw Moss doing sit ups in his driveway?

 

[EBF]

For every guy like Portis and KJ, there are lots of guys who enter the league maxed out. Why should we assume that McFadden is one of the guys who's going to get bigger? Wouldn't it be just as fair to assume that he won't?

It's typically best to rank a player somewhere in between his upside and downside. The problem with the McFadden apologists is that they're only seeing one side of things. When someone drafts McFadden in the top 10 of an initial dynasty draft, that owner isn't factoring his downside into the equation. There's a very real chance that he'll be a big disappointment and that's something a lot of McFadden's biggest supporters stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.

I've raised some good points about his risk and why he might be a bust, but a lot of people don't want to hear that. They just want to be told what they already believe: that he's a freakish talent destined for NFL stardom.

Fair enough. The beauty of FF is that we get to see whether our opinions were right or wrong. I've laid out what I feel is a pretty compelling case against the idea that McFadden is a bulletproof franchise back. I feel pretty confident that time will prove me correct.

As for KJ, he was never all that thin. Here's a picture from one of his early college seasons when he would've been about 19-20:

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/887004.jpg?...84831B75F48EF45

Hardly a stringbean. I know it's from one of his first two seasons becaused he switched from number 7 to number 25 in his last year.

 

[EBF]

Of course Moss has a different body type than Owens, but I can't believe you'd say that Owens doesn't lift more weights than Moss.

Well that's good, because I never said that.

Owens is a lot bigger and stronger. Do you think that's because he lifts more weights? Of course not.

What I said: Owens is not bigger because he lifts more weights. What I didn't say: Owens doesn't lift more weights than Moss.

 

[Wildman]

I didn't see anything in this game that changed my mind. They showed replays of McFadden lowering his shoulder into a CB or DB and running him over and the DB didn't even square up. They show McFadden driving his legs against #25...another DB and getting another yard before the DB throws him backwards. I saw a straight line runner

I respect EBF's opinions. I'm not all into the BMI theory--I haven't looked into it--but as far as what McFadden does and doesn't show, nothing about this Alabama game sheds new light on what I've seen countless times and to say I don't watch SEC football would be like saying the Pope isn't Catholic. Plus, I don't get the "I lost respect for you," or the "bash a player to be 'cool'" complaints with folks who don't agree McFadden will be a superstar. His technique to finish runs, move laterally, protect the football, and spot secondary holes in normal run reads at the line of scrimmage is lacking that of many prospects drafted lower than him or not even drafted.

I hope McFadden succeeds. I'd never want to see a guy fail who works hard and has a dream to play pro ball. I just don't think he's earned the hype of an Adrian Peterson or Eric Dickerson. He's a player one can easily be enamored with because he's so fast. He's not as good of a runner as Robert Smith, IMO. Smith could finish a run more effectively at the same stage of their careers and had much better vision.

I could easily say those bashing EBF simply watch critically enough just as they he is 'over-thinking it.'

The fun part is we're going to find out, health permitting.

 

[Burning Sensation]

It's typically best to rank a player somewhere in between his upside and downside. The problem with the McFadden apologists is that they're only seeing one side of things. When someone drafts McFadden in the top 10 of an initial dynasty draft, that owner isn't factoring his downside into the equation. There's a very real chance that he'll be a big disappointment and that's something a lot of McFadden's biggest supporters stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.

Not sure i would draft Mcfadden in the top 10, but you act as though none of the other players in the top 10 come with a risk. Do i think Mcfadden is a sure fire stud, no. However, after factoring his risk/reward against the other top 10 RB's, i can only think of 6-7 guys i would definetly take over him in a dynasty start-up.I would like to know where you would draft DMac in a start-up dynasty draft?

 

[jurb26]

It's typically best to rank a player somewhere in between his upside and downside. The problem with the McFadden apologists is that they're not agreeing with my side of things. When someone drafts McFadden in the top 10 of an initial dynasty draft, that owner isn't factoring my downside into the equation. There's a very real chance that he'll be a big star and that's something a lot of McFadden's biggest doubters stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.

Fixed.

 

[EBF]

I would like to know where you would draft DMac in a start-up dynasty draft?

Depends on the format. RB15-20 seems about right to me.

 

[cstu]

I didn't see anything in this game that changed my mind. They showed replays of McFadden lowering his shoulder into a CB or DB and running him over and the DB didn't even square up. They show McFadden driving his legs against #25...another DB and getting another yard before the DB throws him backwards. I saw a straight line runner I respect EBF's opinions. I'm not all into the BMI theory--I haven't looked into it--but as far as what McFadden does and doesn't show, nothing about this Alabama game sheds new light on what I've seen countless times and to say I don't watch SEC football would be like saying the Pope isn't Catholic. Plus, I don't get the "I lost respect for you," or the "bash a player to be 'cool'" complaints with folks who don't agree McFadden will be a superstar. His technique to finish runs, move laterally, protect the football, and spot secondary holes in normal run reads at the line of scrimmage is lacking that of many prospects drafted lower than him or not even drafted. I hope McFadden succeeds. I'd never want to see a guy fail who works hard and has a dream to play pro ball. I just don't think he's earned the hype of an Adrian Peterson or Eric Dickerson. He's a player one can easily be enamored with because he's so fast. He's not as good of a runner as Robert Smith, IMO. Smith could finish a run more effectively at the same stage of their careers and had much better vision. I could easily say those bashing EBF simply watch critically enough just as they he is 'over-thinking it.' The fun part is we're going to find out, health permitting.

I've acknowledged my concerns with McFadden in other threads and I'm perfectly aware that he's not the perfect runner. I even support the general idea that BMI matters to running backs. However, when I look at players I consider the entire package and it's in this manner that I believe McFadden is the best running back in the class - not comparing him to all-time greats (or potential ones like Peterson). There are very few RB's who I believed were locks to be superstars (Sanders, Faulk and Peterson) coming out of college and McFadden isn't one of them. What I do feel is that he will improve as a runner in the NFL and his elite speed and ability to catch the ball will make him difficult for defenses to contend with. Does he need to develop patience as a runner? Absolutely. Does he need to learn to protect the ball? No doubt. I think the issues he has can be overcome with proper coaching and work in the weight room.

 

[Burning Sensation]

I would like to know where you would draft DMac in a start-up dynasty draft?

Depends on the format. RB15-20 seems about right to me.

I would like to see a list of 15-20 RB's you would take over him. Bush, Maroney, Lewis, LJ, Ronnie Brown, Grant?

 

[EBF]

I would like to know where you would draft DMac in a start-up dynasty draft?

Depends on the format. RB15-20 seems about right to me.

I would like to see a list of 15-20 RB's you would take over him. Bush, Maroney, Lewis, LJ, Ronnie Brown, Grant?

I would strongly consider all of these guys before DMC depending on my league setup and my draft strategyetersonJacksonWestbrookLTAddaiGoreMJDPortisMendenhallTurnerStewartBarberLJBushMaroneyRyan Grant is not a bad comparison for DMC's FF value. Both guys have a lot of upside and a lot of question marks.

 

[Burning Sensation]

I would like to know where you would draft DMac in a start-up dynasty draft?

Depends on the format. RB15-20 seems about right to me.

I would like to see a list of 15-20 RB's you would take over him. Bush, Maroney, Lewis, LJ, Ronnie Brown, Grant?

I would strongly consider all of these guys before DMC depending on my league setup and my draft strategyetersonJacksonWestbrookLTAddaiGoreMJDPortisMendenhallTurnerStewartBarberLJBushMaroneyRyan Grant is not a bad comparison for DMC's FF value. Both guys have a lot of upside and a lot of question marks.

In a non-PPR, wouldnt you agree Bush is Mcfaddens "downside", or close to it?

 

[EBF]

I would like to know where you would draft DMac in a start-up dynasty draft?

Depends on the format. RB15-20 seems about right to me.

I would like to see a list of 15-20 RB's you would take over him. Bush, Maroney, Lewis, LJ, Ronnie Brown, Grant?

I would strongly consider all of these guys before DMC depending on my league setup and my draft strategyetersonJacksonWestbrookLTAddaiGoreMJDPortisMendenhallTurnerStewartBarberLJBushMaroneyRyan Grant is not a bad comparison for DMC's FF value. Both guys have a lot of upside and a lot of question marks.

In a non-PPR, wouldnt you agree Bush is Mcfaddens "downside", or close to it?

That might not be too far off, but I expect McFadden's production to be a lot closer to that downside than to the ADP type upside some folks have attributed to him.

 

[Jedimaster21]

It's typically best to rank a player somewhere in between his upside and downside. The problem with the McFadden apologists is that they're not agreeing with my side of things. When someone drafts McFadden in the top 10 of an initial dynasty draft, that owner isn't factoring my downside into the equation. There's a very real chance that he'll be a big star and that's something a lot of McFadden's biggest doubters stubbornly refuse to acknowledge.

Fixed.

It's just time for you to stop. We can all see that you disagree with EBF, but have offered no further analysis or factual information to back up your argument. All you have done is insult a poster who has a lot more credibility than you. At this point, I don't know why he is even bothering to respond to you.

 

[Jedimaster21]

There are several posters in this thread that are accusing EBF of letting his personal feelings get in the way of judgement, but I really think those posters need to analyze their position. If EBF is anything, he is deliberate and objective, guys.

 

[Q-Bert]

I would like to know where you would draft DMac in a start-up dynasty draft?

Depends on the format. RB15-20 seems about right to me.

I would like to see a list of 15-20 RB's you would take over him. Bush, Maroney, Lewis, LJ, Ronnie Brown, Grant?

I would strongly consider all of these guys before DMC depending on my league setup and my draft strategyetersonJacksonWestbrookLTAddaiGoreMJDPortisMendenhallTurnerStewartBarberLJBushMaroneyRyan Grant is not a bad comparison for DMC's FF value. Both guys have a lot of upside and a lot of question marks.

And I would add Marshawn Lynch and Willis McGahee to that list. I also wouldn't argue too hard with someone who had Ronnie Borwn, Jamal Lewis, and Ryan Grant ahead of him.

 

[EBF]

I would like to know where you would draft DMac in a start-up dynasty draft?

Depends on the format. RB15-20 seems about right to me.

I would like to see a list of 15-20 RB's you would take over him. Bush, Maroney, Lewis, LJ, Ronnie Brown, Grant?

I would strongly consider all of these guys before DMC depending on my league setup and my draft strategyeterson

Jackson

Westbrook

LT

Addai

Gore

MJD

Portis

Mendenhall

Turner

Stewart

Barber

LJ

Bush

Maroney

Ryan Grant is not a bad comparison for DMC's FF value. Both guys have a lot of upside and a lot of question marks.

And I would add Marshawn Lynch and Willis McGahee to that list. I also wouldn't argue too hard with someone who had Ronnie Borwn, Jamal Lewis, and Ryan Grant ahead of him.

Yes, I would take both of them over DMC. I don't know why I forgot to list them.

 

[Tanner9919]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmNu44CXnQY

I see a tough SOB who will put his shoulder down when needed. There are plenty of examples in this game where DMC doesn't go down on first contact. Mayock makes this claim and everyone runs with it. I call BS.

He's kinda tall and lanky, but if Justin Fargas can do as well as he did last season with the Raiders, I see no reason why D. McFadden can't do the same if not more..you do worry about the similarities to Chris Brown ( tall, fast, runs 'high'), but its WAY too early to say what kind of RB he'll be before we see him in camp and in a few pre-season games.

 

[gump]

Its not Jerious' fault he didnt get to play in a gimmick wildcat offense his entire career. Watching tape on DMC it almost seems like any RB with superior speed could have put up the numbers he did.

The chicken/egg debate...I was under the impression Nutt invented the "gimmick wildcat offense" because of McFadden. DMac showed his immense talent IMMEDIATELY as a freshman on the college level. Nutt then devised an offense around that talent.Who here with knowledge of the Arky schemes from '06 and '07 can clarify?