***David Wilson Bandwagon*** (1 Viewer)

[Koya]

Bob,

I'd still consider your receiving projection to be on the conservative side. Several beat writers mentioned how the Giants were using a lot of practice time putting the screen pass back into the offense. It really hadn't been used much since Tiki left.

Brown is the better receiver but does he have the talent that they'd put the screen in for him when the team had dropped it when Bradshaw was playing? My thinking is that they are hoping to develop Wilson into the next Tiki Barber.

I also have seen (and commented) on the Tiki Barber angle... but as you mention, the receiving duties for now appear to be more with Brown. If indeed his blocking continues to be more secure than Wilson's, that role will be Browns, and Brown's speed and size have proven to be valuable in space against DBs etc.

That said, I could see the Giants grooming Wilson for a Tiki role, which would be huge. The only question, and it really hits for redraft leagues, is when will that happen (assuming he does address blocking issues etc adequately and performs come gametime).

 

[netnalp]

Bob,

I'd still consider your receiving projection to be on the conservative side. Several beat writers mentioned how the Giants were using a lot of practice time putting the screen pass back into the offense. It really hadn't been used much since Tiki left.

Brown is the better receiver but does he have the talent that they'd put the screen in for him when the team had dropped it when Bradshaw was playing? My thinking is that they are hoping to develop Wilson into the next Tiki Barber.

I also have seen (and commented) on the Tiki Barber angle... but as you mention, the receiving duties for now appear to be more with Brown. If indeed his blocking continues to be more secure than Wilson's, that role will be Browns, and Brown's speed and size have proven to be valuable in space against DBs etc.

That said, I could see the Giants grooming Wilson for a Tiki role, which would be huge. The only question, and it really hits for redraft leagues, is when will that happen (assuming he does address blocking issues etc adequately and performs come gametime).

I think them putting the screen pass back in is for Wilson. I just don't see that Brown has skills that they'd put it in for him. If they didn't use the screen with Bradshaw, I don't see that they would for Brown.

 

[Koya]

Bob,

I'd still consider your receiving projection to be on the conservative side. Several beat writers mentioned how the Giants were using a lot of practice time putting the screen pass back into the offense. It really hadn't been used much since Tiki left.

Brown is the better receiver but does he have the talent that they'd put the screen in for him when the team had dropped it when Bradshaw was playing? My thinking is that they are hoping to develop Wilson into the next Tiki Barber.

I also have seen (and commented) on the Tiki Barber angle... but as you mention, the receiving duties for now appear to be more with Brown. If indeed his blocking continues to be more secure than Wilson's, that role will be Browns, and Brown's speed and size have proven to be valuable in space against DBs etc.

That said, I could see the Giants grooming Wilson for a Tiki role, which would be huge. The only question, and it really hits for redraft leagues, is when will that happen (assuming he does address blocking issues etc adequately and performs come gametime).

I think them putting the screen pass back in is for Wilson. I just don't see that Brown has skills that they'd put it in for him. If they didn't use the screen with Bradshaw, I don't see that they would for Brown.

That's a fair point.

 

[ODannyBoy]

A wildcard here is Wilson's PPR-ability. He lined up out wide a few times last year and caught a few balls. I wonder if that will be expanded at all this year? If so, he may not need 15-20 carries per game. Maybe more like 10-12 carries and a few catches. Thoughts from Giants fans?

I think people are seriously underestimating his PPR potential.

I'm not sure where Andre Brown is actually a superior receiver. He's got a modest advantage in pass pro, but that really has nothing to do with receiving ability. In fact, the conventional wisdom is that you use the short passing game to get an explosive player like Wilson into space. You don't really hear teams talk about gameplanning to get a RB who has to build up his speed into space. You want to do that with the guys that have moves and acceleration to exploit those one-on-one matchups. That's really the whole premise of the west coast concept as it remains in today's game. And that's Wilson to a tee. He can sit down in the seams or trot out into the flats and then explode on the lone LB, S or CB that's out there covering him.

Of course, that creates a telegraph issue if you strictly niche your RB's in that manner. But if it's 3rd and manageable, even if you know Wilson won't be blocking, you'll still have to respect the draw and that can still spring Nicks, Cruz and Randle. So I'm not so worried about that with the Giants as I would be for a team that really has little else out there after the RB.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Bob,

I'd still consider your receiving projection to be on the conservative side. Several beat writers mentioned how the Giants were using a lot of practice time putting the screen pass back into the offense. It really hadn't been used much since Tiki left.

Brown is the better receiver but does he have the talent that they'd put the screen in for him when the team had dropped it when Bradshaw was playing? My thinking is that they are hoping to develop Wilson into the next Tiki Barber.

that is very possible, netalp... i was trying to be conservative, possibly to a fault (which is why, despite 4 rushing TDs in less than a third of bradshaw's carries, i didn't project him for 12-13 rushing TDs)... otherwise employing straightforward prorations from wilson's rookie year (like his average per carry of 5 yards), or in some cases, going historical precedent route and taking cue from bradshaw's usage...

i could have been guilty of latter AND being overly conservative in the receiving projections...

with a TD in just four receptions (i think he had 69 yard TD?), pretty much everybody would agree that is unsustainable ratio... but sure, i could see him getting more than 32 receptions... that just seemed like a convenient "placemark", uncontroversial, 2 X per game figure that came immediately to mind... after looking more closely, by my count, 24 RBs had more than 32 receptions (including 70% of top 10 in FBG non-PPR default scoring ((which probably had something to do with why and how they finished top 10))... in PPR, gore would have have bounced ridley from #10 spot, but he only had 28 receptions, so still 70%)...

but yeah, i agree with you... if we were charged with calling plays for giants... wouldn't WE want to get a freakishly athletic RB with such explosive burst, acceleration and suddenness in space with more screens and the like?

so if you are thinking 32 receptions might be on overly conservative, are you projecting more like 40-50 receptions?

* 14 RBs had 40+ receptions (and a few just missed with 39)

7 RBs had 50+ receptions, so 10 more receptions winnows things down appreciably, halving above figure (again, few just missed with 49)

 

[T with T]

I meant wilson has olympic track speed and ran a sub 4.3 fourty on the fastrack at VT.... Even if it is hand timed or whatever guy he is still Super fast and one of the top four fastest backs in the league... Spiller,cj,jc,wilson

 

[monk]

Yes redraft PPR and I got Jackson. I think Wilson may be a little overvalued in redraft right now by a few owners after his big run last week.

PPR would push it even further to S Jax. Really don't see Wilson catching a lot of passes this year... again, I think that part of his game could develop as soon as end of this year into next, however.

The big run may have some effect, but there's been a buliding hype train around Wilson for a while. As I noted elsewhere it scares me (for no logical reasons other than I'm a superstitious Giants fan)

You don't but this guy does

Manning noticed Wilson’s improvements as a receiver and labeled it more as a necessity than a bonus. Bradshaw, responsible for 23 of those catches, is now out of the picture.

"He’s going to have to be (a bigger part of the passing game)," Manning said. "He catches the ball well, so we’re going to try to get him one-on-one and make some guys miss. Every quarterback likes to throw it short and then watch the receiver go a long way. We’ll have plenty of opportunities."

 

[Koya]

Yes redraft PPR and I got Jackson. I think Wilson may be a little overvalued in redraft right now by a few owners after his big run last week.

PPR would push it even further to S Jax. Really don't see Wilson catching a lot of passes this year... again, I think that part of his game could develop as soon as end of this year into next, however.

The big run may have some effect, but there's been a buliding hype train around Wilson for a while. As I noted elsewhere it scares me (for no logical reasons other than I'm a superstitious Giants fan)

You don't but this guy does

Manning noticed Wilson’s improvements as a receiver and labeled it more as a necessity than a bonus. Bradshaw, responsible for 23 of those catches, is now out of the picture.

"He’s going to have to be (a bigger part of the passing game)," Manning said. "He catches the ball well, so we’re going to try to get him one-on-one and make some guys miss. Every quarterback likes to throw it short and then watch the receiver go a long way. We’ll have plenty of opportunities."

Let's hope I'm wrong then in my conservative outlook - which is still pretty good, mind you. Would love for Wilson to become a complete back. As mentioned, Tiki production could result.

That said, I'm not there yet from a fantasy perspective.

 

[monk]

Yes redraft PPR and I got Jackson. I think Wilson may be a little overvalued in redraft right now by a few owners after his big run last week.

PPR would push it even further to S Jax. Really don't see Wilson catching a lot of passes this year... again, I think that part of his game could develop as soon as end of this year into next, however.

The big run may have some effect, but there's been a buliding hype train around Wilson for a while. As I noted elsewhere it scares me (for no logical reasons other than I'm a superstitious Giants fan)

You don't but this guy does

Manning noticed Wilson’s improvements as a receiver and labeled it more as a necessity than a bonus. Bradshaw, responsible for 23 of those catches, is now out of the picture.

"He’s going to have to be (a bigger part of the passing game)," Manning said. "He catches the ball well, so we’re going to try to get him one-on-one and make some guys miss. Every quarterback likes to throw it short and then watch the receiver go a long way. We’ll have plenty of opportunities."

Let's hope I'm wrong then in my conservative outlook - which is still pretty good, mind you. Would love for Wilson to become a complete back. As mentioned, Tiki production could result.

That said, I'm not there yet from a fantasy perspective.

But you got it covered from Brown starting to Wilson becoming the next Tiki barber and everything in between ...so you will be right unless Cox or Torain get the start.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I meant wilson has olympic track speed and ran a sub 4.3 fourty on the fastrack at VT.... Even if it is hand timed or whatever guy he is still Super fast and one of the top four fastest backs in the league... Spiller,cj,jc,wilson

below was posted in other thread (spotlight) in response to similar post in THAT thread... chris johnson*** and jamaal charles**** not mentioned there, i'll look them up and post below...

couldn't find a post in this thread this might have been in response to...

i did in the other wilson thread (band wagon?) post 1651, concept coop did post 1678...

i'm one of wilson's biggest advocates (check recent post in other thread), but earlier it was said he was olympic sprinter, now olympic sprinter speed...

he has enough positives to stand on their own merit, but olympic speed or olympic-like isn't one of them*... i wouldn't put him in spiller's class**, which was another point in the other thread...

why should we care if it was hand timed?

the whole point of measuring speed to the tenth or even hundredth of a second presupposes accuracy...

scouts don't say RB X ran pretty much faster than 5 seconds for 40...

a 4.3 hand timed is likely a 4.4, which, not surprisingly, is i think what he ran electronically timed at combine...

if we are going to be fast and loose with a tenth of a second, would it make as much sense to make a probable 4.4 a 4.5 instead of a 4.3? no, because he ran a 4.4, not a 4.5 (or 4.3)...

super fast... sure, i'm down with that... he is also very quick... fast AND quick is what makes tavon austin so dangerous (austin did run better 40 at combine)...

* below is VTech track bio... states he was top triple jumper in nation as prep, personal best 11.01 100 m... that is a lot faster than most people, but not really close to olympic speed...

http://www.hokiesports.com/track/players/wilson_david.html

** spiller's clemson track bio - personal best 10.29 100 m, which is SMOKIN! but even that not really olympic speed, he was one of faster collegiate sprinters in the nation... he didn't do that well in nationals, but his qualifying 6.58 60 m. was second fastest in nation... florida state champ in 100 m. with 10.42 as prep...

http://www.clemsontigers.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=28500&ATCLID=205530189

*** chris johnson had record tying 4.24 at combine (tied deion for all time fastest?), ran 10.5 as prep, finished 2nd in florida state 100 m. championship to eventual olympic bronze medalist walter dix...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Johnson_(running_back)

**** jamaal charles had personal best 10.13 100 m (that is borderline olympic fast)... fourth in ncaa indoor 60, fifth in ncaa outdoor 100 m...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaal_Charles

 

[rizzler]

40 time IN PADS is all you should give a flying #### about.

Last I checked, you dont play football on a straightline track in a bodysuit and parachute shoes.

 

[Touchdown There]

Maybe not Spiller fast but it is close. More opportunity than Spiller at this age.

Faster than every guy running after him will still earn a lot of fantasy points.

 

[Koya]

40 time IN PADS is all you should give a flying #### about.

Last I checked, you dont play football on a straightline track in a bodysuit and parachute shoes.

It's not even about in Pads. It's game speed. Wilson has it. That is not (nor should be) the issue.

That said, J. Charles at 10.13 is ridiculously fast.

 

[Banger]

Yes redraft PPR and I got Jackson. I think Wilson may be a little overvalued in redraft right now by a few owners after his big run last week.

Agreed. Nice move, I'd probably make the same move at this point.

He's definitely moved up my board though and who knows though at the end of the year things could look a lot different. He's got electric ability and to me it's about opportunity. Right now I don't see as good an opportunity but if Eli struggles and Wilson is making plays things can change quick. He has the ability.

A big part of my problem is that I don't know that I can't trust Coughlin. He has his rules, his way and is unpredictable.

 

[netnalp]

I could see Wilson getting about 40 catches. They are bringing the screen pass back into the offense. Also with the Giants having been bad at short yardage for the past few years, I suspect that in the red zone, they might be inclined to pass it in. Using Wilson as a dump off or on screens in those situations. Since Wilson is a small back that can get lost behind the line, defenders might react to the movement of the FB. Jam the FB in the middle and send Wilson out wide.

 

[Bob Magaw]

40 time IN PADS is all you should give a flying #### about.

Last I checked, you dont play football on a straightline track in a bodysuit and parachute shoes.

why even run the 40 if it is completely meaningless?

why did mike wallace make a fortune in free agency, though he is commonly viewed as one dimensional WR (maybe fastest WR in the league) - speed kills... being fast on track isn't mutually exclusive with being fast on field (though they aren't always synonomous)... in 2013 draft, rookie WRs austin, patterson and hunter were in top four WRs selected, all extremely fast, and tested well, in shorts, but also played fast on the field... hopkins didn't fit the profile...

i agree it doesn't matter much for DE (look at suggs)...

RB doesn't have to run a sub-4.4... i think rookies bell (4.55) and ball (4.65) will enjoy some level of success and be multi-year starters...

just addressing the claim (made multiple times) that wilson was olympic sprinter, or has olympic sprinter speed (wasn't, doesn't)...

i did say above he is extremely fast...

but imo, i don't think he should be drafted with assumption that he is as fast as chris johnson, CJ spiller or jamaal charles... again, he is very fast, not as fast as them... no cause to think those guys slow down more than wilson in pads, since they all have demonstrable game breaking open field speed - can you think of one?

maybe wilson will be better than them? if so, it could be for a constellation of other traits (better leg strength, contact balance, etc.) and other reasons...

 

[netnalp]

I'm not concerned if he's as fast as Spiller, Johnson or Charles. What I like is that defenses have to play Wilson more honestly than those other RBs. Focus a defense on Wilson and Coughlin will be more than happy to let Eli and his WRs torch the defense.

Wilson will get his carries because the Giants passing game uses play action often. Even when the running game wasn't doing well last year, the backs got a decent amount of carries. Looks like Cox will take the KR duties so Wilson won't lose reps due to that.

 

[Bob Magaw]

i think it is important to add in this context it does no good to obssess over speed as an end in itself...

i don't have an interest in a track star masquerading as football player...

but a legit RB, or WR or even QB (RGIII was reported to be olympic caliber hurdler, that is pretty well documented, so for some it didn't come as a surprise when he hit the ground running so to speak, and immediately looked like one of the most explosive and dangerous running QBs in league history - sometimes it pays to pay attention to speed, when taken in context) that happens to have sprinter speed (like chris johnson, jamaal charles, CJ spiller) is a plus in my book, if they aren't absent other important traits like athleticism, toughness, field awareness, instincts, etc...

but speed, even embedded in those other good traits, still isn't an end all...

adrian peterson is fast, not as fast as above three, but is the best RB in football because his OVERALL constellation of attributes is superior...

 

[msudaisy26]

Yes redraft PPR and I got Jackson. I think Wilson may be a little overvalued in redraft right now by a few owners after his big run last week.

PPR would push it even further to S Jax. Really don't see Wilson catching a lot of passes this year... again, I think that part of his game could develop as soon as end of this year into next, however.

The big run may have some effect, but there's been a buliding hype train around Wilson for a while. As I noted elsewhere it scares me (for no logical reasons other than I'm a superstitious Giants fan)

You don't but this guy doesManning noticed Wilsons improvements as a receiver and labeled it more as a necessity than a bonus. Bradshaw, responsible for 23 of those catches, is now out of the picture.

"Hes going to have to be (a bigger part of the passing game)," Manning said. "He catches the ball well, so were going to try to get him one-on-one and make some guys miss. Every quarterback likes to throw it short and then watch the receiver go a long way. Well have plenty of opportunities."

Let's hope I'm wrong then in my conservative outlook - which is still pretty good, mind you. Would love for Wilson to become a complete back. As mentioned, Tiki production could result.

That said, I'm not there yet from a fantasy perspective.

But you got it covered from Brown starting to Wilson becoming the next Tiki barber and everything in between ...so you will be right unless Cox or Torain get the start.

I think this kid has more talent then Tiki ever had. Remember Tiki was a bad fumbler when he got into the league, and I am not sure how he was in pass protection. Wilson also has some flaws in his game right now, but I think they are all correctable.

I would be disappointed if in 2 years we aren't talking about this guy as a top 5 running back. If he lives up to his talent his floor should be what Tiki did and his ceiling would be what L.T. did.

 

[ImTheScientist]

Wilson's balance blows my mind. He seems to get hit and keep with balance through tackles better than most RB's in the league.

 

[Koya]

Yes redraft PPR and I got Jackson. I think Wilson may be a little overvalued in redraft right now by a few owners after his big run last week.

PPR would push it even further to S Jax. Really don't see Wilson catching a lot of passes this year... again, I think that part of his game could develop as soon as end of this year into next, however.

The big run may have some effect, but there's been a buliding hype train around Wilson for a while. As I noted elsewhere it scares me (for no logical reasons other than I'm a superstitious Giants fan)

You don't but this guy doesManning noticed Wilsons improvements as a receiver and labeled it more as a necessity than a bonus. Bradshaw, responsible for 23 of those catches, is now out of the picture.

"Hes going to have to be (a bigger part of the passing game)," Manning said. "He catches the ball well, so were going to try to get him one-on-one and make some guys miss. Every quarterback likes to throw it short and then watch the receiver go a long way. Well have plenty of opportunities."

Let's hope I'm wrong then in my conservative outlook - which is still pretty good, mind you. Would love for Wilson to become a complete back. As mentioned, Tiki production could result.

That said, I'm not there yet from a fantasy perspective.

But you got it covered from Brown starting to Wilson becoming the next Tiki barber and everything in between ...so you will be right unless Cox or Torain get the start.

I think this kid has more talent then Tiki ever had. Remember Tiki was a bad fumbler when he got into the league, and I am not sure how he was in pass protection. Wilson also has some flaws in his game right now, but I think they are all correctable.

I would be disappointed if in 2 years we aren't talking about this guy as a top 5 running back. If he lives up to his talent his floor should be what Tiki did and his ceiling would be what L.T. did.

That's a hell of a statement. Had Tiki played for two more years he would have had a good shot at the HoF - his numbers were really, really good. A shame he was such a pathetic, selfish teammate toward the end of his career, but that's another issue.

I am very high on Wilson's talent and upside, but it's a bit early IMO to be jumping into the top 5 running back, though he has the physical skills. And to say that his floor is a borderline HoF career (wrong side of the border, mind you) is really not founded, again, IMO. COULD HE? Sure, but it will take a lot to go right to have a ceiling as an arguably top 5 and certainly top 10 RB of all time.

The hype is really getting crazy here and I think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves with the premature anointment of all-time greatness.

 

[Rick James]

this thread has become annoying, bordering on absurd. So now we're splitting hairs between a 10.4 and 11.0 in the 100m run. That's essentially the length of a football field. CJ spiller would finish ahead of Wilson by half a second, and Jamaal Charles by a full second. Over 100 yards. Good lord people, why is this even being discussed?

David Wilson is FAST, that's all that matters. Faster than the LBs and DBs who will be chasing him.

Mercy.

 

[msudaisy26]

Yes redraft PPR and I got Jackson. I think Wilson may be a little overvalued in redraft right now by a few owners after his big run last week.

PPR would push it even further to S Jax. Really don't see Wilson catching a lot of passes this year... again, I think that part of his game could develop as soon as end of this year into next, however.

The big run may have some effect, but there's been a buliding hype train around Wilson for a while. As I noted elsewhere it scares me (for no logical reasons other than I'm a superstitious Giants fan)

You don't but this guy doesManning noticed Wilsons improvements as a receiver and labeled it more as a necessity than a bonus. Bradshaw, responsible for 23 of those catches, is now out of the picture.

"Hes going to have to be (a bigger part of the passing game)," Manning said. "He catches the ball well, so were going to try to get him one-on-one and make some guys miss. Every quarterback likes to throw it short and then watch the receiver go a long way. Well have plenty of opportunities."

Let's hope I'm wrong then in my conservative outlook - which is still pretty good, mind you. Would love for Wilson to become a complete back. As mentioned, Tiki production could result.

That said, I'm not there yet from a fantasy perspective.

But you got it covered from Brown starting to Wilson becoming the next Tiki barber and everything in between ...so you will be right unless Cox or Torain get the start.

I think this kid has more talent then Tiki ever had. Remember Tiki was a bad fumbler when he got into the league, and I am not sure how he was in pass protection. Wilson also has some flaws in his game right now, but I think they are all correctable.I would be disappointed if in 2 years we aren't talking about this guy as a top 5 running back. If he lives up to his talent his floor should be what Tiki did and his ceiling would be what L.T. did.

That's a hell of a statement. Had Tiki played for two more years he would have had a good shot at the HoF - his numbers were really, really good. A shame he was such a pathetic, selfish teammate toward the end of his career, but that's another issue.

I am very high on Wilson's talent and upside, but it's a bit early IMO to be jumping into the top 5 running back, though he has the physical skills. And to say that his floor is a borderline HoF career (wrong side of the border, mind you) is really not founded, again, IMO. COULD HE? Sure, but it will take a lot to go right to have a ceiling as an arguably top 5 and certainly top 10 RB of all time.

The hype is really getting crazy here and I think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves with the premature anointment of all-time greatness.

I agree with you, talent wise he is better then Tiki, but we have seen plenty of guys with loads of talent that just didn't get it, that is why I would be disappointed if he doesn't do it, but not shocked.

P.S. Tiki is an #####

 

[Koya]

this thread has become annoying, bordering on absurd. So now we're splitting hairs between a 10.4 and 11.0 in the 100m run. That's essentially the length of a football field. CJ spiller would finish ahead of Wilson by half a second, and Jamaal Charles by a full second. Over 100 yards. Good lord people, why is this even being discussed?

David Wilson is FAST, that's all that matters. Faster than the LBs and DBs who will be chasing him.

Mercy.

FYI, the difference between 10.4 and 11.0 is very significant in terms of straightline speed. It's huge. I ran track in high school and was slated to do so in college, so I'm pretty familiar with the numbers, and thats the difference between a fast high school kid and one of the faster/est high school kids in the Country. Get down to 10.2 and you are nearing world class speed.

Now, how that speed translates to the field? Totally different story. But you can't state (accurately at least) that 10.4 is really close to 11.0 - it's not.

 

[ponchsox]

The man love for Wilson in this thread is rather disturbing.

 

[Khy]

this thread has become annoying, bordering on absurd. So now we're splitting hairs between a 10.4 and 11.0 in the 100m run. That's essentially the length of a football field. CJ spiller would finish ahead of Wilson by half a second, and Jamaal Charles by a full second. Over 100 yards. Good lord people, why is this even being discussed?

David Wilson is FAST, that's all that matters. Faster than the LBs and DBs who will be chasing him.

Mercy.

FYI, the difference between 10.4 and 11.0 is very significant in terms of straightline speed. It's huge. I ran track in high school and was slated to do so in college, so I'm pretty familiar with the numbers, and thats the difference between a fast high school kid and one of the faster/est high school kids in the Country. Get down to 10.2 and you are nearing world class speed.

Now, how that speed translates to the field? Totally different story. But you can't state (accurately at least) that 10.4 is really close to 11.0 - it's not.

Agreed. That's obviously a large gap. By comparison it's saying a 4.16 40 is almost the same as a 4.4 40...

As you say though a LOT of what speed has to do with football comes from how well you use your speed. Very rarely as a RB are you running in a straight line, it's nice to know when you are past everyone you're gone but you have to get there first. How well you can stop, cut and accelerate are far more important than baseline speed. Very few people possess elite speed, stop cutting ability and acceleration. Wilson has all of those elements.

 

[Koya]

this thread has become annoying, bordering on absurd. So now we're splitting hairs between a 10.4 and 11.0 in the 100m run. That's essentially the length of a football field. CJ spiller would finish ahead of Wilson by half a second, and Jamaal Charles by a full second. Over 100 yards. Good lord people, why is this even being discussed?

David Wilson is FAST, that's all that matters. Faster than the LBs and DBs who will be chasing him.

Mercy.

FYI, the difference between 10.4 and 11.0 is very significant in terms of straightline speed. It's huge. I ran track in high school and was slated to do so in college, so I'm pretty familiar with the numbers, and thats the difference between a fast high school kid and one of the faster/est high school kids in the Country. Get down to 10.2 and you are nearing world class speed.

Now, how that speed translates to the field? Totally different story. But you can't state (accurately at least) that 10.4 is really close to 11.0 - it's not.

Agreed. That's obviously a large gap. By comparison it's saying a 4.16 40 is almost the same as a 4.4 40...

As you say though a LOT of what speed has to do with football comes from how well you use your speed. Very rarely as a RB are you running in a straight line, it's nice to know when you are past everyone you're gone but you have to get there first. How well you can stop, cut and accelerate are far more important than baseline speed. Very few people possess elite speed, stop cutting ability and acceleration. Wilson has all of those elements.

Agreed on Wilson here. He plays a lot faster than what 11.0 would suggest.

 

[Rick James]

this thread has become annoying, bordering on absurd. So now we're splitting hairs between a 10.4 and 11.0 in the 100m run. That's essentially the length of a football field. CJ spiller would finish ahead of Wilson by half a second, and Jamaal Charles by a full second. Over 100 yards. Good lord people, why is this even being discussed?

David Wilson is FAST, that's all that matters. Faster than the LBs and DBs who will be chasing him.

Mercy.

FYI, the difference between 10.4 and 11.0 is very significant in terms of straightline speed. It's huge. I ran track in high school and was slated to do so in college, so I'm pretty familiar with the numbers, and thats the difference between a fast high school kid and one of the faster/est high school kids in the Country. Get down to 10.2 and you are nearing world class speed.

Now, how that speed translates to the field? Totally different story. But you can't state (accurately at least) that 10.4 is really close to 11.0 - it's not.

It's close enough to be practically irrelevant. Wilson is faster than all but a handful of RBs in the nfl. It's not even worth discussing.

 

[TheFanatic]

The man love for Wilson in this thread is rather disturbing.

The player hating in this thread is equally disturbing

 

[Khy]

The man love for Wilson in this thread is rather disturbing.

Thanks man, glad you could contribute to the thread.

this thread has become annoying, bordering on absurd. So now we're splitting hairs between a 10.4 and 11.0 in the 100m run. That's essentially the length of a football field. CJ spiller would finish ahead of Wilson by half a second, and Jamaal Charles by a full second. Over 100 yards. Good lord people, why is this even being discussed?

David Wilson is FAST, that's all that matters. Faster than the LBs and DBs who will be chasing him.

Mercy.

FYI, the difference between 10.4 and 11.0 is very significant in terms of straightline speed. It's huge. I ran track in high school and was slated to do so in college, so I'm pretty familiar with the numbers, and thats the difference between a fast high school kid and one of the faster/est high school kids in the Country. Get down to 10.2 and you are nearing world class speed.

Now, how that speed translates to the field? Totally different story. But you can't state (accurately at least) that 10.4 is really close to 11.0 - it's not.

Agreed. That's obviously a large gap. By comparison it's saying a 4.16 40 is almost the same as a 4.4 40...

As you say though a LOT of what speed has to do with football comes from how well you use your speed. Very rarely as a RB are you running in a straight line, it's nice to know when you are past everyone you're gone but you have to get there first. How well you can stop, cut and accelerate are far more important than baseline speed. Very few people possess elite speed, stop cutting ability and acceleration. Wilson has all of those elements.

Agreed on Wilson here. He plays a lot faster than what 11.0 would suggest.

Yeah he definitely does, watch any tape on him and you can see how true this is... it's a shame people keep calling this out. Or in other threads people claiming that Andre Brown is faster then him.

 

[TheFanatic]

this thread has become annoying, bordering on absurd. So now we're splitting hairs between a 10.4 and 11.0 in the 100m run. That's essentially the length of a football field. CJ spiller would finish ahead of Wilson by half a second, and Jamaal Charles by a full second. Over 100 yards. Good lord people, why is this even being discussed?

David Wilson is FAST, that's all that matters. Faster than the LBs and DBs who will be chasing him.

Mercy.

FYI, the difference between 10.4 and 11.0 is very significant in terms of straightline speed. It's huge. I ran track in high school and was slated to do so in college, so I'm pretty familiar with the numbers, and thats the difference between a fast high school kid and one of the faster/est high school kids in the Country. Get down to 10.2 and you are nearing world class speed.

Now, how that speed translates to the field? Totally different story. But you can't state (accurately at least) that 10.4 is really close to 11.0 - it's not.

It's close enough to be practically irrelevant. Wilson is faster than all but a handful of RBs in the nfl. It's not even worth discussing.

But we will!

 

[monk]

Yes redraft PPR and I got Jackson. I think Wilson may be a little overvalued in redraft right now by a few owners after his big run last week.

PPR would push it even further to S Jax. Really don't see Wilson catching a lot of passes this year... again, I think that part of his game could develop as soon as end of this year into next, however.

The big run may have some effect, but there's been a buliding hype train around Wilson for a while. As I noted elsewhere it scares me (for no logical reasons other than I'm a superstitious Giants fan)

You don't but this guy doesManning noticed Wilsons improvements as a receiver and labeled it more as a necessity than a bonus. Bradshaw, responsible for 23 of those catches, is now out of the picture.

"Hes going to have to be (a bigger part of the passing game)," Manning said. "He catches the ball well, so were going to try to get him one-on-one and make some guys miss. Every quarterback likes to throw it short and then watch the receiver go a long way. Well have plenty of opportunities."

Let's hope I'm wrong then in my conservative outlook - which is still pretty good, mind you. Would love for Wilson to become a complete back. As mentioned, Tiki production could result.

That said, I'm not there yet from a fantasy perspective.

But you got it covered from Brown starting to Wilson becoming the next Tiki barber and everything in between ...so you will be right unless Cox or Torain get the start.

I think this kid has more talent then Tiki ever had. Remember Tiki was a bad fumbler when he got into the league, and I am not sure how he was in pass protection. Wilson also has some flaws in his game right now, but I think they are all correctable.

I would be disappointed if in 2 years we aren't talking about this guy as a top 5 running back. If he lives up to his talent his floor should be what Tiki did and his ceiling would be what L.T. did.

That's a hell of a statement. Had Tiki played for two more years he would have had a good shot at the HoF - his numbers were really, really good. A shame he was such a pathetic, selfish teammate toward the end of his career, but that's another issue.

I am very high on Wilson's talent and upside, but it's a bit early IMO to be jumping into the top 5 running back, though he has the physical skills. And to say that his floor is a borderline HoF career (wrong side of the border, mind you) is really not founded, again, IMO. COULD HE? Sure, but it will take a lot to go right to have a ceiling as an arguably top 5 and certainly top 10 RB of all time.

The hype is really getting crazy here and I think we are getting a bit ahead of ourselves with the premature anointment of all-time greatness.

Agree with all of this!

 

[Khy]

this thread has become annoying, bordering on absurd. So now we're splitting hairs between a 10.4 and 11.0 in the 100m run. That's essentially the length of a football field. CJ spiller would finish ahead of Wilson by half a second, and Jamaal Charles by a full second. Over 100 yards. Good lord people, why is this even being discussed?

David Wilson is FAST, that's all that matters. Faster than the LBs and DBs who will be chasing him.

Mercy.

FYI, the difference between 10.4 and 11.0 is very significant in terms of straightline speed. It's huge. I ran track in high school and was slated to do so in college, so I'm pretty familiar with the numbers, and thats the difference between a fast high school kid and one of the faster/est high school kids in the Country. Get down to 10.2 and you are nearing world class speed.

Now, how that speed translates to the field? Totally different story. But you can't state (accurately at least) that 10.4 is really close to 11.0 - it's not.

It's close enough to be practically irrelevant. Wilson is faster than all but a handful of RBs in the nfl. It's not even worth discussing.

How is it irrelevant? Do you even acknowledge what you're saying? If you're a corner who runs a 11 second 100m and you're trying to catch up to the guy who runs a 10.8 second 100m guess who you're not catching? Everyone in the NFL is separated by only a handful of decimal points. The difference between the best speed (4.25sec 40) and slow (4.5+ 40) is massive even though it's only 0.25 seconds in differential. You're severely under-estimating how small the gaps in speed actually are in the NFL.

As for the Tiki thing, David Wilson definitely has more elite talent than Tiki ever had. Realize Tiki wasn't really thought of as an impressive back for his first 5-6 seasons he was a simple change of pace back. Wilson came out of college as an elite talent. If he puts the non-physical parts of the game together he'll far surpass Tiki Barber's career. Whether or not he does put everything together is an entirely different story.

 

[Koya]

The man love for Wilson in this thread is rather disturbing.

The player hating in this thread is equally disturbing

I haven't seen much player hating to be honest. A number of us have tempered expectations mostly due to a question of role, but I don't see anyone suggesting that he will be a total bust or even close

 

[TheFanatic]

The man love for Wilson in this thread is rather disturbing.

The player hating in this thread is equally disturbing

I haven't seen much player hating to be honest. A number of us have tempered expectations mostly due to a question of role, but I don't see anyone suggesting that he will be a total bust or even close

People in here that are all geeked about Andre Brown who keep bringing him up like he is anything more than a backup and possibly 3rd down back for a little while have generally ripped Wilson as not being much better than Brown based on similar YPC last year. And of course Brown is considered the better goal line threat except for the fact that he got injured three times in that role last year.

 

[Bob Magaw]

Wilson's balance blows my mind. He seems to get hit and keep with balance through tackles better than most RB's in the league.

5:33 my favorite clip highlighting his balance (3:40 shows his power - don't try this at home)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bO123KOEM

* as to the tiki talk, don't know if it was prompted by an earlier interview, but tiki himself i think stated wilson could be the most athletic, physically gifted or talented RB the giants have ever had (paraphrasing, but something to that effect)...

** wilson is really fast... i wouldn't have discussed it, except for somebody who said he was olympic sprinter (which became olympic caliber)...

probably i'm being pedantic... its like if somebody insisted darrell "dr. dunkenstein" griffith or dominique "the human highlight film" wilkins had a 72" VJ... they were already elite, why embellish it? i think griffith was 48", wilkins something like 42-44"... i would probably attempt to clarify that, yes, he can jump really high, but he doesn't have a 72" VJ... than some would say that isn't even worth discussing, when they obviously have great verticals...

 

[Koya]

The man love for Wilson in this thread is rather disturbing.

The player hating in this thread is equally disturbing

I haven't seen much player hating to be honest. A number of us have tempered expectations mostly due to a question of role, but I don't see anyone suggesting that he will be a total bust or even close

People in here that are all geeked about Andre Brown who keep bringing him up like he is anything more than a backup and possibly 3rd down back for a little while have generally ripped Wilson as not being much better than Brown based on similar YPC last year. And of course Brown is considered the better goal line threat except for the fact that he got injured three times in that role last year.

There are a few who might be a bit higher on Brown that what should be expected, but for those who watched Brown play last year, we know he does bring something to the table. To ignore that is foolish. His balance of power and speed was surprising - and while he's always injured, those abilities have shown glimpses since he was drafted by the Giants a few years back as a guy out of no where.

When you couple Brown's on the field proven ability with the real possibility of him having a role at the GL and possibly 3rd down as well, it certainly impacts Wilson's fantasy perspective and it's those nuances and the conversations we have about them which can provide insight and value to fantasy owners.

 

[Rick James]

this thread has become annoying, bordering on absurd. So now we're splitting hairs between a 10.4 and 11.0 in the 100m run. That's essentially the length of a football field. CJ spiller would finish ahead of Wilson by half a second, and Jamaal Charles by a full second. Over 100 yards. Good lord people, why is this even being discussed?

David Wilson is FAST, that's all that matters. Faster than the LBs and DBs who will be chasing him.

Mercy.

FYI, the difference between 10.4 and 11.0 is very significant in terms of straightline speed. It's huge. I ran track in high school and was slated to do so in college, so I'm pretty familiar with the numbers, and thats the difference between a fast high school kid and one of the faster/est high school kids in the Country. Get down to 10.2 and you are nearing world class speed.

Now, how that speed translates to the field? Totally different story. But you can't state (accurately at least) that 10.4 is really close to 11.0 - it's not.

It's close enough to be practically irrelevant. Wilson is faster than all but a handful of RBs in the nfl. It's not even worth discussing.

How is it irrelevant? Do you even acknowledge what you're saying? If you're a corner who runs a 11 second 100m and you're trying to catch up to the guy who runs a 10.8 second 100m guess who you're not catching? Everyone in the NFL is separated by only a handful of decimal points. The difference between the best speed (4.25sec 40) and slow (4.5+ 40) is massive even though it's only 0.25 seconds in differential. You're severely under-estimating how small the gaps in speed actually are in the NFL.

As for the Tiki thing, David Wilson definitely has more elite talent than Tiki ever had. Realize Tiki wasn't really thought of as an impressive back for his first 5-6 seasons he was a simple change of pace back. Wilson came out of college as an elite talent. If he puts the non-physical parts of the game together he'll far surpass Tiki Barber's career. Whether or not he does put everything together is an entirely different story.

I'm really not interested in the differences between the 11 second 100m and a 10.8 or 10.4.

Speed is an asset of David Wilson's, not a detriment. He is a homerun threat who can take it to the house from anywhere on the field. He's plenty fast enough.

 

[Khy]

I'm really not interested in the differences between the 11 second 100m and a 10.8 or 10.4.

Speed is an asset of David Wilson's, not a detriment. He is a homerun threat who can take it to the house from anywhere on the field. He's plenty fast enough.

I think you're misunderstanding me here. I'm simply saying the difference between an 11 second 100m and a 10.4 second 100m is massive and no irrelevant.

If you've been following this thread or any thread involving Wilson discussion on these forums though you'd know I'm buying Wilson more than most people on these boards. I'm 110% in the camp that Brown poses an almost non-existent threat to Wilson's production potential this season and I think Wilson ends the year as a Top 10 RB this season with the possibility to end Top 5. I've been drafting him ahead of his ADP in almost every redraft I'm in and have been trying to trade the farm for him in dynasty leagues I'm in if I can.

 

[TheFanatic]

The man love for Wilson in this thread is rather disturbing.

The player hating in this thread is equally disturbing

I haven't seen much player hating to be honest. A number of us have tempered expectations mostly due to a question of role, but I don't see anyone suggesting that he will be a total bust or even close

People in here that are all geeked about Andre Brown who keep bringing him up like he is anything more than a backup and possibly 3rd down back for a little while have generally ripped Wilson as not being much better than Brown based on similar YPC last year. And of course Brown is considered the better goal line threat except for the fact that he got injured three times in that role last year.

There are a few who might be a bit higher on Brown that what should be expected, but for those who watched Brown play last year, we know he does bring something to the table. To ignore that is foolish. His balance of power and speed was surprising - and while he's always injured, those abilities have shown glimpses since he was drafted by the Giants a few years back as a guy out of no where.

When you couple Brown's on the field proven ability with the real possibility of him having a role at the GL and possibly 3rd down as well, it certainly impacts Wilson's fantasy perspective and it's those nuances and the conversations we have about them which can provide insight and value to fantasy owners.

But his balance and power are no where near what DW's are. Having watched both guys last year, one is clearly better in pretty much every aspect of the game. Brown is just a guy. DW is a star.

And Brown did well at the goal line last year because they saved Bradshaw from it, or wouldn't put DW in because of whatever they were upset with him over, or when Bradshaw was injured, they had nobody else. Those assuming that Brown will have that same role this year are going to be very disappointed. Wilson does not have the injury history of Bradshaw. He also will not be in the doghouse all year like 2012.

Brown has nice balance and power, but he is in distant second on the team in terms of both of those things. As for the goal line? Well, I feel his "nose" for the goal line was more about him being fed the ball in that situation. I don't know if that will happen again this year.

 

[netnalp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6X9xnyh2bw

Tiki Barber interview with BBI from a few weeks ago.

In it, Tiki talks about why he wasn't the RB he became during his first few years. What fixed his fumbling. Also comparisons of the offense he played in and the current Giants offense. explains how he feels that Wilson is a similar RB to himself where Bradshaw was a between the tackles runner.

 

[msudaisy26]

Wilson's balance blows my mind. He seems to get hit and keep with balance through tackles better than most RB's in the league.

5:33 my favorite clip highlighting his balance (3:40 shows his power - don't try this at home)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1bO123KOEM

* as to the tiki talk, don't know if it was prompted by an earlier interview, but tiki himself i think stated wilson could be the most athletic, physically gifted or talented RB the giants have ever had (paraphrasing, but something to that effect)...

** wilson is really fast... i wouldn't have discussed it, except for somebody who said he was olympic sprinter (which became olympic caliber)...

probably i'm being pedantic... its like if somebody insisted darrell "dr. dunkenstein" griffith or dominique "the human highlight film" wilkins had a 72" VJ... they were already elite, why embellish it? i think griffith was 48", wilkins something like 42-44"... i would probably attempt to clarify that, yes, he can jump really high, but he doesn't have a 72" VJ... than some would say that isn't even worth discussing, when they obviously have great verticals...

I never watched him at V. Tech but wow. I am not sure how his leg didn't buckle on that play at 5:33.

The last guy to have this kind of balance that I remember watching play was Brandon Lloyd. The last guy at running back was Barry Sanders.

 

[Monsters of the Midway]

Tweet from rotoworld's Evan Silva

Myth 1: Andre Brown is #Giants GL back. Brown & David Wilson combined for 10 1st-team red-zone touches in preseason. Wilson 5, Brown 5.

 

[Yenrub]

Tweet from rotoworld's Evan Silva

Myth 1: Andre Brown is #Giants GL back. Brown & David Wilson combined for 10 1st-team red-zone touches in preseason. Wilson 5, Brown 5.

Redzone touches isn’t the same thing as goalline touches

 

[Khy]

Tweet from rotoworld's Evan Silva

Myth 1: Andre Brown is #Giants GL back. Brown & David Wilson combined for 10 1st-team red-zone touches in preseason. Wilson 5, Brown 5.

Redzone touches isn’t the same thing as goalline touches

This is 100% true... I'm going to quote a few things from some other threads that I did the math on regarding the goal-line situation in NY.

If I had to guess it's more likely they end up splitting short yardage carries throughout the season. Last season between Wilson, Brown and Bradshaw there was about 30 goal line attempts (within 5 yards). Bradshaw saw 14, Brown saw 12, and Wilson saw 4 was the split. Now Bradshaw got those carries by being the starting RB. Assuming Bradshaw's carries go to the new starting RB (David Wilson) it wouldn't be wrong to draw the conclusion that you'll see something along the lines of like 16 for Wilson and 12 for Brown. Possibly even less than 12 as 3 of those carries came in the Carolina game that he started in and 2 of them in the Tampa game that Bradshaw went out in.

So yeah, I would have to assume from looking at last seasons stats assuming roughly the same number of goal line carries to last season. You'll see somewhere near a 60/40 split in goal line carries between them. Probably about 14-18 for Wilson and about 10-12 for Brown. Obviously, these numbers could fluctuate if either one has issues scoring in short yardage situations. So far Brown has been struggling with them in the preseason and Wilson hasn't.

Lets see...In the first preseason game Wilson saw a run from the PIT 5 for no gain. So count is 1-0 Wilson. In the 2nd preseason game Wilson saw one carry from the 5 that was completely blown up and he lost 4 yardage by Warner getting into the backfield before he even got the ball in his hands. So the count is 2-0 Wilson. In the 3rd preseason game Wilson was only on the field for the first quarter. During the first quarter they didn't get close enough to be in a goal line situation. In the second quarter Brown saw 2 goal line carries one from the 4 and one from the 2 and didn't manage to get in the end zone and they hit a FG instead. So the count is 2-2.

So still an even split on actual "goal line" which I tend to define by runs from within the 5 yard line. It sounds like Silva is talking about plays from within the 20. Either way though, it's an even split and Wilson has been seeing ALL of the early carries. In two of the games Brown didn't see a single touch of the ball until Wilson was already on the bench for the rest of the game. To me that's extremely telling that this is a starter and backup situation more so then the 1a and 1b situation people keep thinking it'll be.

 

[Bob Magaw]

thanx, khy...

great (aggregation of) posts...

the reminder about the greater number of GL looks bradshaw had as starter last year, compared to brown, and wilson having a shot at taking over most or all of them (important detail and specifics about the 2012 distribution casting a beacon on potential 2013 usage and ratio) cut through some of the thread clutter like the crazy 88s getting dispatched in kill bill.

* some contention about what consitutes a "GL" carry (RZ inside 20 yd)... some use inside 5 yd, i sort of agree with upthread as 1-2 yd intuitively seems more like it... as long as the convention is understood, than we know what we are talking about...

i'd make the point that even if brown had a few more carries from inside 2, but wilson has more or something closer to even split from inside 5, wilson's greater explosivenes (and though they ran similar 40 times in respective combines, wilson looks noticeably quicker to me) could be an equalizer - in the sense of, if he is as good or better scoring from 3 yd than brown from 2 yd?

also, maybe there is a perception that a close to 200 lb. (207?) home run hitter may have trouble in close, where running lanes are more congested and size/power seem to be better suited to the task (for instance, montee ball fits this profile better than even a bulked up hillman)...

without trying to cherry pick data to frame a desired outcome, i'll ask something i don't know the answer to (though have suspicions - see below)... are RBs he has been compared to above... chris johnson, jamaal charles and CJ spiller (maybe league's fastest starters, in same neighborhood size-wise, all homerun hitters with the proverbial ability to take it to the house on any play), poor or below average in converting GL rushing opportunities (maybe check with inside 5 and inside 2 data?), when they had the chance (we could ask how many chances they had, but that could involve several confounding variables, like how other teams/HCs/OCs handle RBBC usage, talent of depth behind them, variable competence of overall offenses to get them in scoring position)...

anecdotally, when looking into charles season right before tearing ACL, don't recall exact number, but a lot of his TDs were in close, more than i recalled... i thought i recalled greater percentage from 10 yd and out, but the result was not what i expected, lot more in close opps than i had realized.

 

[ang12]

Wilson looking good tonight. Brown... meh, but he was blocking well.

 

[JuniorNB]

In a quarter's work, Wilson has 6 carries for 37 yards and one reception for 4 more. I can't wait to see what he does this year.

 

[ang12]

He did get a RZ carry, by the way, and picked up good yardage. Brown got 2 RZ snaps but didn't touch the ball.

 

[ponchsox]

In a quarter's work, Wilson has 6 carries for 37 yards and one reception for 4 more. I can't wait to see what he does this year.

He's gonna be a stud. I just hope Brown isn't his Micheal Bush.