Dear John Fox and John Elway (1 Viewer)

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

http://espn.go.com/n...take/league/afc ...maybe we all just underestimate how big of an impact on the game turnovers are... Probably has a bigger impact on a defenses confidence than we think. Looking at the give/take stats from the past 5 years or so...all the elite teams lead the league in that category consistently

Past 9 superbowl winners and there rank in give/take:

Packers(4th) +10

Saints(3rd) +11

Steelers(10th) +4

Giants(25th) -9

Colts(5th) +7

Steelers(9th) +7

Patriots(8th) +9

Patriots(2nd) +17

Buccaneers(1st) +17

There is definitely a reason why 8 out of the last 9 super bowl champions have a positive +- and were in the top 10 ... all of them above +4 except for the Giants actually...goes to show just how much of an upset that patriots superbowl actually was.

The Giants were +5 in the playoffs including the SB.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Why am I still reading this thread?

Why this thread was even started with a 30+ page Tebow thread on the first page already is hard for me to comprehend. Whoever started this thread must have quite the ego.

30 page threads are so messy

 

[sho nuff]

I think you're confusing publicity for hype. Is people repeatedly saying "This guys isn't a good quarterback." over and over and over again hype? Interesting. I have a much different idea of what hype is.

Look up the definition for hype and see what you come up with.

 

[shnikies]

I think you're confusing publicity for hype. Is people repeatedly saying "This guys isn't a good quarterback." over and over and over again hype? Interesting. I have a much different idea of what hype is.

Look up the definition for hype and see what you come up with.

Ok you're right, it's negative hype. And how is that relevant to Sam Bradford and Josh Freeman who have gotten positive hype?

 

[AmosMoses]

I think you're confusing publicity for hype. Is people repeatedly saying "This guys isn't a good quarterback." over and over and over again hype? Interesting. I have a much different idea of what hype is.

Look up the definition for hype and see what you come up with.

I remember reading about a Japanese soldier from WWII that hid on some island in the Phillipines for decades because he didn't realize the war was over. Are you related to that guy?

 

[sho nuff]

I think you're confusing publicity for hype. Is people repeatedly saying "This guys isn't a good quarterback." over and over and over again hype? Interesting. I have a much different idea of what hype is.

Look up the definition for hype and see what you come up with.

Ok you're right, it's negative hype. And how is that relevant to Sam Bradford and Josh Freeman who have gotten positive hype?

I stated there was more hype about him than those two...I think its very relevant in what was actually said.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

because it's been successful so far. i've seen nothing to show me it cannot. *waits for completely subjective rebuttal*

Considering you gave no actual reasoning...it was not worth any other response at the time.

because actual wins and something objective is beyond reason.

Sho nuff can never admit he's wrong. He's the sore loser at recess and the guy that drags out meetings at work.

 

[shnikies]

I think you're confusing publicity for hype. Is people repeatedly saying "This guys isn't a good quarterback." over and over and over again hype? Interesting. I have a much different idea of what hype is.

Look up the definition for hype and see what you come up with.

Ok you're right, it's negative hype. And how is that relevant to Sam Bradford and Josh Freeman who have gotten positive hype?

I stated there was more hype about him than those two...I think its very relevant in what was actually said.

8 starts under 3 coaches does not count as 2 years.What is Sam Bradford's excuse? Or Josh Freeman's? Talk about being unable to sustain a consistent offense.I don't care how many starts.Its not going from year 1 to year 2 like you were claiming the improvement from their first to 2nd years.It is his 2nd year in the league.Now...granted he did not have the benefit of a true offseason and will give him the benefit of the doubt there.BTW...I don't see people hyping either of those two guys as much as Tebow is being hyped. If it's not positive hype then why is it relevant? Freeman and Bradford have had more positive hype in their careers than Tebow. I'm sorry if I missed your point.

 

[AmosMoses]

I think you're confusing publicity for hype. Is people repeatedly saying "This guys isn't a good quarterback." over and over and over again hype? Interesting. I have a much different idea of what hype is.

Look up the definition for hype and see what you come up with.

Ok you're right, it's negative hype. And how is that relevant to Sam Bradford and Josh Freeman who have gotten positive hype?

I stated there was more hype about him than those two...I think its very relevant in what was actually said.

shinikes is completely dominating you.

 

[werdnoynek]

I think you're confusing publicity for hype. Is people repeatedly saying "This guys isn't a good quarterback." over and over and over again hype? Interesting. I have a much different idea of what hype is.

Look up the definition for hype and see what you come up with.

I remember reading about a Japanese soldier from WWII that hid on some island in the Phillipines for decades because he didn't realize the war was over. Are you related to that guy?

 

[Gopher State]

I think you're confusing publicity for hype. Is people repeatedly saying "This guys isn't a good quarterback." over and over and over again hype? Interesting. I have a much different idea of what hype is.

Look up the definition for hype and see what you come up with.

I remember reading about a Japanese soldier from WWII that hid on some island in the Phillipines for decades because he didn't realize the war was over. Are you related to that guy?

x2

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I think you're confusing publicity for hype. Is people repeatedly saying "This guys isn't a good quarterback." over and over and over again hype? Interesting. I have a much different idea of what hype is.

Look up the definition for hype and see what you come up with.

I remember reading about a Japanese soldier from WWII that hid on some island in the Phillipines for decades because he didn't realize the war was over. Are you related to that guy?

x2

To the 3rd power

 

[cvnpoka]

Orton 4-22 over his last 26 starts

Tebow 4-1 in his last 5 starts

i remember when we played this game with vince young vs kerry collins.

 

[cvnpoka]

The kid has no running game, a banged up washed out McGahee and Lance Ball, his WR1 was shipped to St Louis, no speed at TE...what do you really expect here?

I guess I expect the Tebow fan club to continue to make more excuses and be blind to so many things that show this won't last.

It feels like the Tebow haters seem to have the excuses. Scoreboard is Tebow 4-1 as a starter, has 7 TD passes vs 1 Interception so what exactly are the excuses that Tebow fans are using?

it seems like just yesterday ppl were pointing at orton's 6-0 start and proclaiming him a far better qb than cutler.

 

[cvnpoka]

I should have clarified a running spread...

Tennessee was 8-2 in games VY started in 2009 running a lot of option plays. They had Chris Johnson but, still, 8-2. They averaged 27 points per game over that span.

Are you trying to prove my point?Where is VY now?Was that type of offense sustainable?BTW...VY was a better passer than Tebow and he sucked as a passer too.

Everyone knows 1) Vince is at least slightly insane and 2) Fisher never wanted him. The reasons Vince is not still starting in Tenn have nothing to do with on the field or sustainability of the offense. This is 8-2 in 2009, not his rookie or 2nd year. This is after the NFL had plenty of time to figure him out. Chris Johnson is a large part of it, but still. 8-2. 27 ppg. in 2009.

Everyone also knows the offense was not always great and they relied heavily on defense and their kicker while VY got all the credit...that and well, Chris Johnson who is not walking through the door at mile high anytime soon.VY and that offense was not a sustainable thing. It worked great as a rookie when he first came on and people had no clue about him...it got worse as things went on.

this like completely the opposite of what happened with vince young. he got better every single year in the league as a passer and ran much less. in 2010 he actually having a pretty great season before getting injured.

 

[Dizzy]

The real MIRACLE happening in Denver is the defense. 55 minutes of "3 & out's" and DEN still has a chance to win it in the last 5?

They get no credit though... it's all about The Tebow.

 

[flapgreen]

TEEEEEBOOOOOW!!!!!

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

The real MIRACLE happening in Denver is the defense. 55 minutes of "3 & out's" and DEN still has a chance to win it in the last 5?

They get no credit though... it's all about The Tebow.

I've heard and read quite a bit of credit given to the defense. It is a reality that quarterbacks also get too much credit and too much blame in football.

 

[flapgreen]

Elway is pissed.

 

[sho nuff]

because it's been successful so far. i've seen nothing to show me it cannot. *waits for completely subjective rebuttal*

Considering you gave no actual reasoning...it was not worth any other response at the time.

because actual wins and something objective is beyond reason.

Sho nuff can never admit he's wrong. He's the sore loser at recess and the guy that drags out meetings at work.

Have anything to bring to the table? Or just coming in trolling to bash?

 

[sho nuff]

8 starts under 3 coaches does not count as 2 years.What is Sam Bradford's excuse? Or Josh Freeman's? Talk about being unable to sustain a consistent offense.I don't care how many starts.Its not going from year 1 to year 2 like you were claiming the improvement from their first to 2nd years.It is his 2nd year in the league.Now...granted he did not have the benefit of a true offseason and will give him the benefit of the doubt there.BTW...I don't see people hyping either of those two guys as much as Tebow is being hyped. If it's not positive hype then why is it relevant? Freeman and Bradford have had more positive hype in their careers than Tebow. I'm sorry if I missed your point.

Id say Tebow is getting plenty of positive hype too.The point is that people are not bashing them as much because they did not get as much hype.Someone else (I believe on another board) tried to compare it to why guys like Grossman and all had more chances...and my response was the same. There was not the same amount of hype on Grossman and when he was bad, he was called bad.Bradford and Freeman have been bad this year...but talk about irrelevant...what they have done or how they are talked about is irrelevant to Tim freaking Tebow.

 

[twistd]

Dear MOP,Not all defenses will change what they were doing for 55 minutes of a game and allow us to go 95 yards in 4 minutes after we could only put up 134 yards of total offense for the rest of the game. In addition, the spread offense, like the wildcat, is simply not a sustainable offense for this league. We are running it out desperation right now and its working, but in the long run, it will get our QB killed and we cannot advance into the playoffs and in the playoffs while running this.ThanksElway and Fox

I think the wildcat reference is perfect. Teams had trouble with the wildcat in the beginning. It wasn't too long before a bunch of teams were running their own versions of the wildcat. But soon the defenses caught up with the wildcat and learned how to defend it. Now you seldom see teams running wildcat. This Tebow/option offense is the new wildcat. And just like the old wildcat, teams will catch up and figure out how to defend it. They will force Tebow to stay in the pocket. Problem is that he doesn't read defenses well and he is not an accurate passer. And that will be the end of Tim Tebow as a full time NFL Quarterback. I think Elway and Fox realize that. I too, would not be surprised at all to see the Broncos drafting a QB early next year.

 

[kencav]

They cut to Elway after the clock ran down and I don't think I've ever seen an exec look so miserable after a win...

I saw that, too, and thought, "Why the long face?"

Why the long face you ask?........because Elway and "Mister Ed -the talking horse" are blood relatives

 

[kencav]

The real MIRACLE happening in Denver is the defense. 55 minutes of "3 & out's" and DEN still has a chance to win it in the last 5?

They get no credit though... it's all about The Tebow.

They deserve credit for sure.....but between schotts playcalling and Sanchez the Jets offense just plain sucks!

 

[twistd]

The real MIRACLE happening in Denver is the defense. 55 minutes of "3 & out's" and DEN still has a chance to win it in the last 5?

They get no credit though... it's all about The Tebow.

They deserve credit for sure.....but between schotts playcalling and Sanchez the Jets offense just plain sucks!

Sanchez was horrible in that game. He seems to have regressed. One thing I can't quite figure out is that Holmes is without question their best offensive weapon, but they don't get him the ball. It just seems like they don't make much of an effort to get the ball in his hands. However I did see attempts where they were targeting Holmes and Sanchez just missed the throw. I don't know if it is play calling, or whether Sanchez just doesn't connect with Holmes.

 

[benson_will_lead_the_way]

because it's been successful so far. i've seen nothing to show me it cannot. *waits for completely subjective rebuttal*

Considering you gave no actual reasoning...it was not worth any other response at the time.

because actual wins and something objective is beyond reason.

Sho nuff can never admit he's wrong. He's the sore loser at recess and the guy that drags out meetings at work.

Have anything to bring to the table? Or just coming in trolling to bash?

I do onto others what they do to me. I just can't take myself away from you messing up yet another thread...

 

[QuizGuy66]

Why am I still reading this thread?

Why this thread was even started with a 30+ page Tebow thread on the first page already is hard for me to comprehend. Whoever started this thread must have quite the ego.

30 page threads are so messy

He maketh the threads mulitple like loaves and fishes.-QG

 

[flapgreen]

I think you're confusing publicity for hype. Is people repeatedly saying "This guys isn't a good quarterback." over and over and over again hype? Interesting. I have a much different idea of what hype is.

Look up the definition for hype and see what you come up with.

I remember reading about a Japanese soldier from WWII that hid on some island in the Phillipines for decades because he didn't realize the war was over. Are you related to that guy?

 

[Brock Middlebrook]

Dear MOP,Not all defenses will change what they were doing for 55 minutes of a game and allow us to go 95 yards in 4 minutes after we could only put up 134 yards of total offense for the rest of the game. In addition, the spread offense, like the wildcat, is simply not a sustainable offense for this league. We are running it out desperation right now and its working, but in the long run, it will get our QB killed and we cannot advance into the playoffs and in the playoffs while running this.ThanksElway and Fox

I think the wildcat reference is perfect. Teams had trouble with the wildcat in the beginning. It wasn't too long before a bunch of teams were running their own versions of the wildcat. But soon the defenses caught up with the wildcat and learned how to defend it. Now you seldom see teams running wildcat. This Tebow/option offense is the new wildcat. And just like the old wildcat, teams will catch up and figure out how to defend it. They will force Tebow to stay in the pocket. Problem is that he doesn't read defenses well and he is not an accurate passer. And that will be the end of Tim Tebow as a full time NFL Quarterback. I think Elway and Fox realize that. I too, would not be surprised at all to see the Broncos drafting a QB early next year.

1) nobody ever said the wildcat was going to be anybody's base offense2) it still works. I've seen it work this season still

 

[sho nuff]

I do onto others what they do to me. I just can't take myself away from you messing up yet another thread...

Thanks for your contribution homer.

WHat happened to that?Please honor your word...Id prefer it that way.

 

[sho nuff]

Dear MOP,Not all defenses will change what they were doing for 55 minutes of a game and allow us to go 95 yards in 4 minutes after we could only put up 134 yards of total offense for the rest of the game. In addition, the spread offense, like the wildcat, is simply not a sustainable offense for this league. We are running it out desperation right now and its working, but in the long run, it will get our QB killed and we cannot advance into the playoffs and in the playoffs while running this.ThanksElway and Fox

I think the wildcat reference is perfect. Teams had trouble with the wildcat in the beginning. It wasn't too long before a bunch of teams were running their own versions of the wildcat. But soon the defenses caught up with the wildcat and learned how to defend it. Now you seldom see teams running wildcat. This Tebow/option offense is the new wildcat. And just like the old wildcat, teams will catch up and figure out how to defend it. They will force Tebow to stay in the pocket. Problem is that he doesn't read defenses well and he is not an accurate passer. And that will be the end of Tim Tebow as a full time NFL Quarterback. I think Elway and Fox realize that. I too, would not be surprised at all to see the Broncos drafting a QB early next year.

1) nobody ever said the wildcat was going to be anybody's base offense2) it still works. I've seen it work this season still

1) But it pretty much was about Miami's base offense.2) thats the point...this zone read may work from time to time...it will not work long term. The offense they are going with running that much and throwing so poorly will not likely pan out long term.

 

[LTsharks]

Tim Tebow should also be an MVP candidate. The award should rightfully go to Aaron Rodgers but Tebow has breathed something into the Denver Broncos to take them from 1-4 to 5-5 with a 4-1 record along the way whether you believe he plays a pivotal role or not the team was struggling mightily without him playing. Players last night had a look I've not seen before when Tebow was on one knee after the TD, defensive players walking up and having a moment with him and not just saying "good job". Something is in the water in Denver.

I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that the teams Orton started against are currently a combined 29-16 and the teams Tebow has started against are a combined 22-24? Or the fact that they've had five more games to get used to their new coaching staff and new offensive and defensive schemes? Under Orton, the team scored at least 20 points in all but one game, under Tebow, they've managed to score 20 points in only one game. So yes, clearly Tebow is the reason they are winning these games.

if you score 20 and give the other team 10, that's probaly worse than scoring 10 and giving the other guys zero

While that may be true, I'm not sure what point you're making. Are you suggesting that Orton somehow gave the other team ten points a game?

are you missing the part where Tebow doesn't turn the ball over?look up the turnover vs win stats in the nfl. i think a QB who doesn't turn it over might be worth much more than one who does.

 

[Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub]

Tebow's had more memorable 4th quarter comebacks in his 8 career stats than Elway had in his entire 16 year career.

The jealousy is understandable.

 

[shredhead]

Tebow's had more memorable 4th quarter comebacks in his 8 career stats than Elway had in his entire 16 year career.The jealousy is understandable.

You're either or you're a Browns fan.

 

[az_prof]

The kid has no running game, a banged up washed out McGahee and Lance Ball, his WR1 was shipped to St Louis, no speed at TE...what do you really expect here?

I guess I expect the Tebow fan club to continue to make more excuses and be blind to so many things that show this won't last.

It feels like the Tebow haters seem to have the excuses. Scoreboard is Tebow 4-1 as a starter, has 7 TD passes vs 1 Interception so what exactly are the excuses that Tebow fans are using?

it seems like just yesterday ppl were pointing at orton's 6-0 start and proclaiming him a far better qb than cutler.

Not me. I never liked either. And I didn't believe in that 6-0 start--it was against bad teams and had some unbelievably lucky plays.

 

[Hoss Style]

The kid has no running game, a banged up washed out McGahee and Lance Ball, his WR1 was shipped to St Louis, no speed at TE...what do you really expect here?

I guess I expect the Tebow fan club to continue to make more excuses and be blind to so many things that show this won't last.

It feels like the Tebow haters seem to have the excuses. Scoreboard is Tebow 4-1 as a starter, has 7 TD passes vs 1 Interception so what exactly are the excuses that Tebow fans are using?

it seems like just yesterday ppl were pointing at orton's 6-0 start and proclaiming him a far better qb than cutler.

Not me. I never liked either. And I didn't believe in that 6-0 start--it was against bad teams and had some unbelievably lucky plays.

Wait... are you talking about Tebow or Orton? Because, you know...

 

[Avery]

Tim Tebow should also be an MVP candidate. The award should rightfully go to Aaron Rodgers but Tebow has breathed something into the Denver Broncos to take them from 1-4 to 5-5 with a 4-1 record along the way whether you believe he plays a pivotal role or not the team was struggling mightily without him playing. Players last night had a look I've not seen before when Tebow was on one knee after the TD, defensive players walking up and having a moment with him and not just saying "good job". Something is in the water in Denver.

I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that the teams Orton started against are currently a combined 29-16 and the teams Tebow has started against are a combined 22-24? Or the fact that they've had five more games to get used to their new coaching staff and new offensive and defensive schemes? Under Orton, the team scored at least 20 points in all but one game, under Tebow, they've managed to score 20 points in only one game. So yes, clearly Tebow is the reason they are winning these games.

if you score 20 and give the other team 10, that's probaly worse than scoring 10 and giving the other guys zero

While that may be true, I'm not sure what point you're making. Are you suggesting that Orton somehow gave the other team ten points a game?

are you missing the part where Tebow doesn't turn the ball over?look up the turnover vs win stats in the nfl. i think a QB who doesn't turn it over might be worth much more than one who does.

If you rarely pass, you'll rarely turn the ball over but that doesn't mean that not passing is an solution for long term success.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

4 in a row!!!

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Tim Tebow MVP candidate

 

[jojoh07]

4 in a row!!!

 

[nysportsfan]

Tim Tebow MVP candidate

X

 

[nysportsfan]

The guy just wins.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Tim Tebow MVP candidate

X

Oh yes yes yes

I didn't say he would or should win. In fact Aaron Rodgers is a runaway this year but Tebow is leading his team to victories and Kyle Orton was the starter at the beginning of the season, now he isn't even on the team. Denver is a playoff contender right now, that has to count heavily.

 

[AmosMoses]

He just wins.

 

[GroveDiesel]

And his idiotic GM traded away their best WR.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

And his idiotic GM traded away their best WR.

Agreed and this week i thought it was odd that he went to the sidelines before the game ended. I thought he could actually throw the team off and maybe was trying to do so...that or he wanted to know what this Tebow thing was all about similar to Rome circa 33 A.D.

 

[t8knovr]

And his idiotic GM traded away their best WR.

Tebow could not get the ball that far down field to maximize Llyod.

 

[sho nuff]

F it...he just keeps getting it done (with help from a defense that is playing lights out).

Its not pretty, but it works.

No sense in continuing to criticize right now.

 

[shnikies]

And his idiotic GM traded away their best WR.

Tebow could not get the ball that far down field to maximize Llyod.

The 14 receptions for 263 yards and 2 touchdowns he had for the three games Tebow started last year disagrees with you.

 

[flapgreen]

Looks like you have a winner on your hands now, Elway. Weren't expecting that, were you? Keep leaning and leaning on him. He'll prove you morons wrong again and again.