DEF Scheme changes on IDP (1 Viewer)

[varmint cong]

Initially I had Vilma as a top 2-3 LB, but with the changes from 4-3, to a hybrid 3-4 i'm more weary on him, this also applies to DL like Jason taylor, who could also play OLB in the phins 3-4 sheme, I know this affects many teams, what do you guys think?

 

[Jene Bramel]

Initially I had Vilma as a top 2-3 LB, but with the changes from 4-3, to a hybrid 3-4 i'm more weary on him, this also applies to DL like Jason taylor, who could also play OLB in the phins 3-4 sheme, I know this affects many teams, what do you guys think?

There are at least three variations of the 3-4 scheme in the league right now.The Belichick version (hybrid, multiple looks from a base 3-4) run by NE, CLE, and the NYJ. A mostly balanced version of the 3-4 front run in different ways by SD, DAL, and PIT (who throws a bunch of zone blitz looks into the mix also). And Saban's version of the 3-4, which is much like Belichick's but uses a lot of one-gap looks on the line.

For the most part, the DE in the 3-4 will have a hard time hitting the boxscore. They're expected to hold blockers (often two) instead of attack and are rarely quick/strong enough to defeat both blockers in run support or pass rush. There are exceptions of course, but very few. Saban's scheme is kind of a Jeckyl-Hyde situation on the line. Taylor isn't exactly a rush linebacker, but he'll very rarely have two gap end responsibility, if at all, so he retains his value. There is a small chance that he'll continue to have increased coverage responsibilities and be re-classified as a LB, but I think his pass rush value is too high to see that happen soon.

The OLB role in the 3-4 is entirely dependent on responsibility and your scoring system. On one hand, you're going to have guys like Demarcus Ware and Manny Lawson who are likely to struggle in run support and serve a rush LB role. They'll have value only in sack heavy scoring systems. On the other hand, you'll have guys like Bobby Carpenter or Willie McGinest who will probably make enough plays in run support to be on the radar of all leagues, but may not have an impact in any. Then you've got the Shawne Merrimans of the world, who may be the rare OLB who makes enough plays in run support and are terrors in pass rush to be valuable in all leagues.

The ILB role is pretty much the same in all versions of the 3-4. You're looking for the same guys you are in the 4-3 (strong, instinctive tacklers), but you'll need to pay attention to the surrounding personnel a bit more. First, you'll need to identify the LILB - they're aligned to the strong side of the formation most often in balanced fronts (Edwards, Farrior) and have MLB responsibilities (A. Davis) in unbalanced (dedicated rush LB) fronts. To become a stud in a 3-4, the ILB needs to either have a stud NT (and solid DE) to keep the bigger offensive lineman off of him or have elite strength and quickness to leverage himself against or elude blocks. Vilma has the skill set to succeed in the hybrid 3-4, but he's going to be limited somewhat by the lack of a true NT on the current Jet roster. Dewayne Robertson may have the size, but he's more of a one-gap penetrator than a plugging man-mountain type. How well Vilma can overcome that remains to be seen, but, for now, I'm still in his corner.

 

[varmint cong]

Initially I had Vilma as a top 2-3 LB, but with the changes from 4-3, to a hybrid 3-4 i'm more weary on him, this also applies to DL like Jason taylor, who could also play OLB in the phins 3-4 sheme, I know this affects many teams, what do you guys think?

There are at least three variations of the 3-4 scheme in the league right now.The Belichick version (hybrid, multiple looks from a base 3-4) run by NE, CLE, and the NYJ. A mostly balanced version of the 3-4 front run in different ways by SD, DAL, and PIT (who throws a bunch of zone blitz looks into the mix also). And Saban's version of the 3-4, which is much like Belichick's but uses a lot of one-gap looks on the line.

For the most part, the DE in the 3-4 will have a hard time hitting the boxscore. They're expected to hold blockers (often two) instead of attack and are rarely quick/strong enough to defeat both blockers in run support or pass rush. There are exceptions of course, but very few. Saban's scheme is kind of a Jeckyl-Hyde situation on the line. Taylor isn't exactly a rush linebacker, but he'll very rarely have two gap end responsibility, if at all, so he retains his value. There is a small chance that he'll continue to have increased coverage responsibilities and be re-classified as a LB, but I think his pass rush value is too high to see that happen soon.

The OLB role in the 3-4 is entirely dependent on responsibility and your scoring system. On one hand, you're going to have guys like Demarcus Ware and Manny Lawson who are likely to struggle in run support and serve a rush LB role. They'll have value only in sack heavy scoring systems. On the other hand, you'll have guys like Bobby Carpenter or Willie McGinest who will probably make enough plays in run support to be on the radar of all leagues, but may not have an impact in any. Then you've got the Shawne Merrimans of the world, who may be the rare OLB who makes enough plays in run support and are terrors in pass rush to be valuable in all leagues.

The ILB role is pretty much the same in all versions of the 3-4. You're looking for the same guys you are in the 4-3 (strong, instinctive tacklers), but you'll need to pay attention to the surrounding personnel a bit more. First, you'll need to identify the LILB - they're aligned to the strong side of the formation most often in balanced fronts (Edwards, Farrior) and have MLB responsibilities (A. Davis) in unbalanced (dedicated rush LB) fronts. To become a stud in a 3-4, the ILB needs to either have a stud NT (and solid DE) to keep the bigger offensive lineman off of him or have elite strength and quickness to leverage himself against or elude blocks. Vilma has the skill set to succeed in the hybrid 3-4, but he's going to be limited somewhat by the lack of a true NT on the current Jet roster. Dewayne Robertson may have the size, but he's more of a one-gap penetrator than a plugging man-mountain type. How well Vilma can overcome that remains to be seen, but, for now, I'm still in his corner.

bramel, some great stuff you have posted, i loved the explanantion on the tampa 2 scheme and its affect on db and run support...so to pick your brain, how about ranking the top 10 LB, DL, DB with a scoring system of .5 for otal tackles , sacks 2 pts, and int 3 pts

 

[Jene Bramel]

how about ranking the top 10 LB, DL, DB with  a scoring system of .5 for otal tackles , sacks 2 pts, and int 3 pts

That's fairly close to our FBG scoring system, just a hair more rewarding of sacks (4x tackle), but more rewarding of interceptions (6x tackle).I don't think I'd change the rankings I've posted for FBG much for that setup, although I'd bet that a pretty sizable chunk of your top ten DBs last year were corners with big INT seasons. In that vein, I'd probably bump the consistent corners who are known to be excellent on the ball and make tackles - guys like Clements, Gamble, Tillman, McGee. You might be able to snag a Shawntae Spencer, Ike Taylor, Ken Lucas or Antrel Rolle pretty cheaply later as well.

Watch out on guys like Deltha O'Neal, Champ Bailey, and Nathan Vasher though. They were probably top 15 in that system for 2005, but unless they top six picks again...their value could tank.

Sack artists will have a little more value as well. But overall, unless the offensive side of the ball doesn't score well either, I'd load up on offense before defense here. It looks like this league probably breaks close to 65/35 offense to defense scoring at first glance.

 

[Rovers]

Initially I had Vilma as a top 2-3 LB, but with the changes from 4-3, to a hybrid 3-4 i'm more weary on him, this also applies to DL like Jason taylor, who could also play OLB in the phins 3-4 sheme, I know this affects many teams, what do you guys think?

There are at least three variations of the 3-4 scheme in the league right now.The Belichick version (hybrid, multiple looks from a base 3-4) run by NE, CLE, and the NYJ. A mostly balanced version of the 3-4 front run in different ways by SD, DAL, and PIT (who throws a bunch of zone blitz looks into the mix also). And Saban's version of the 3-4, which is much like Belichick's but uses a lot of one-gap looks on the line.

For the most part, the DE in the 3-4 will have a hard time hitting the boxscore. They're expected to hold blockers (often two) instead of attack and are rarely quick/strong enough to defeat both blockers in run support or pass rush. There are exceptions of course, but very few. Saban's scheme is kind of a Jeckyl-Hyde situation on the line. Taylor isn't exactly a rush linebacker, but he'll very rarely have two gap end responsibility, if at all, so he retains his value. There is a small chance that he'll continue to have increased coverage responsibilities and be re-classified as a LB, but I think his pass rush value is too high to see that happen soon.

The OLB role in the 3-4 is entirely dependent on responsibility and your scoring system. On one hand, you're going to have guys like Demarcus Ware and Manny Lawson who are likely to struggle in run support and serve a rush LB role. They'll have value only in sack heavy scoring systems. On the other hand, you'll have guys like Bobby Carpenter or Willie McGinest who will probably make enough plays in run support to be on the radar of all leagues, but may not have an impact in any. Then you've got the Shawne Merrimans of the world, who may be the rare OLB who makes enough plays in run support and are terrors in pass rush to be valuable in all leagues.

The ILB role is pretty much the same in all versions of the 3-4. You're looking for the same guys you are in the 4-3 (strong, instinctive tacklers), but you'll need to pay attention to the surrounding personnel a bit more. First, you'll need to identify the LILB - they're aligned to the strong side of the formation most often in balanced fronts (Edwards, Farrior) and have MLB responsibilities (A. Davis) in unbalanced (dedicated rush LB) fronts. To become a stud in a 3-4, the ILB needs to either have a stud NT (and solid DE) to keep the bigger offensive lineman off of him or have elite strength and quickness to leverage himself against or elude blocks. Vilma has the skill set to succeed in the hybrid 3-4, but he's going to be limited somewhat by the lack of a true NT on the current Jet roster. Dewayne Robertson may have the size, but he's more of a one-gap penetrator than a plugging man-mountain type. How well Vilma can overcome that remains to be seen, but, for now, I'm still in his corner.

Bramel rules. Jene.... general consensus is Robertson is no nose tackle in a 3-4, and is most likely playing his last year in Jets green. The wild card is Pouha. A 27 year old project, now in his second year. 325-330, and NOT fat at all. This guy showed some significant improvement in his absolutey horrible technique and fundamantals in the closing games of the 2005 season.

In TC last year, his feet were too close together, his steps were too long, and he did not use his arms to prevent O linemen from locking him up. What was worse, is the fact that he never got any special attention from the CS last year. That isn't how one develops a project player IMHO. (how freakin happy am I that Edwards is gone!?!)

All of those issues are correctable. The two problems that might not be are his lack of stamina and his lack of a mean streak. It is my personal opinion that Brian Cox was added as an asst D line coach to mentor Pouha. This kid, well, he's 27, but this kid has ALL of the measuables to be an elite 3-4 NT. The issue with Pouha are the intangables. If he comes around (and I've been a supporter of Pouha since day 1) I think Vilma will be fine. I also think the Jets could run the 4-3 as much as half the time this year.

Mangini has to sell the 3-4 to this team, and he is one smart guy. He knows the heart of the D is Vilma. He also has to know that the 3-4 is not in Vilma's best interest, long term, career and $ wise. But, Vilma isn't any Ray Lewis either. He'll go with the program, once he's sold on it as the best way to run the D. I think that means a slower switch to the 3-4 than most might anticipate. In fact, right now, the Jets roster is still better suited to the 4-3 than the 3-4. I think Pouha's development is the lynch pin. I also think that is why only Robertson's (of all the BIG contracts) was the only one not renegotiated this year. They need him for the 4-3 look. In 2007, I expect him to be traded or cut.... he has no position in the 3-4.

Vilma should still be ranked no lower than 3 for LB's, until proven otherwise. I also believe that the other ILB when in the 3-4 will be taught to help protect Vilma. Enter guys like Schlegel and Kassel. Team players that will give it up for the sake of team. That's why guys like Reed were cut. Playing outside the scheme. It's team first with Mangini, but he WILL cater to a very select group of players, and Vilma is at he top of that list. Mangini will find a way to get him on board.

To steal a Mets obsolete chant.... ya gotta believe!