Defense/Special Teams Fumble Recover Points (1 Viewer)

[taylormeetstheismann]

This past weekend there was a relatively uncommon turnover during a kickoff in the game with Dallas and Arizona.

N.Folk kicks 37 yards from DAL 30 to ARI 33. 93-C.Campbell MUFFS catch, RECOVERED by DAL-23-T.Choice at ARI 27. 23-T.Choice to ARI 27 for no gain (85-J.Urban).

A defense/special team "player" will often get some amount of points for a turnover in most leagues. This is the case in my league. And more specifically, the scoring rules state that a "fumble recovery" or an "interception" is worth three points. This play is a turnover but not a "fumble recovery per se and our league website did not credit it as such. I don't know exactly how the league scoring rules were programmed but I do know what the written rules state.

Now you could take the view that the spirit of the rules suggests this "recovery" should qualify for three points. The spirit of the rules imply that turnovers are worth three points. You could also take the view that the letter of the rules does not offer points for a "recovery". A "fumble recovery" or an "interception" would get three points but a "recovery" is different and it does not qualify because it is not the same as either of those two specific categories. Both are fairly reasonable arguments.

Had we considered there could be a turnover as the result of a "recovery" off of a "muff" and this play could be considered different than a "fumble recovery", then we would have certainly taken steps to specifically outline the scoring decision in advance. Unfortunately, we didn't but now we will. A few years back in 2003 when we first encountered the "offensive fumble return touchdown" we issued scoring decisions for the current year and then made long-term rule changes for the following year. Now I'm confident our league will work this out without much turmoil, however, I am interested in learning from other leagues.

Did your league award point(s) to the Dallas defense/special teams for this play?

Does your league have rules that specifically account for a "recovery" off a muff?

Based on what I described about my league's rules, what do you think the scoring decision should be for us? Three points or no points?

Any feedback or suggestions are appreciated.

 

[Xue]

Yes it should be a "fumble recovery" for the D/ST and for the player who recovered the fumble, T.Choice, if your team has IDP scoring, because the return man (C.Campbell) was charged with a "lost fumble". There is no official stat called "muffed punt" for a return man or "recovered muffed punt" for the kicking team.

Just because Campbell may never had actually had possession of the ball does not mean it's not a "turnover". Once a player on the return team touches the ball, the kicking team can recover. Therefore, a player on the return team can simply let the ball land on the ground, touch it but not pick it up, and then a player on the kicking team picks it up, it's still considered a "lost fumble" and "fumble recovery".

 

[JerseyPaul]

A kickoff is a free ball. It does not have to be touched or fumbled by the receiving team to be recovered by the kicking team (as long as it goes 10 yards). Recovering a muffed kickoff is not equivalent to a turnover. Same result as an onside kick.

 

[taylormeetstheismann]

I appreciate the two replies this post has received so far. However, I'm surprised there is so little interest in this topic considering the sheer number of league commissioners and championship contenders that frequent these boards. I have found the FBG community to be voraciously interested in expressing useful opinions on all manner of topics. Maybe I've mis-read things as late and only "popular" posters get responses these days. Maybe only totally pointless and useless threads hypothecating about the league MVP or Tony Kornheiser matter anymore to the Shark Pool. Where are the thoughtful posts by likes of Bass N Brew, Greg R or even the legions upon legions of Cowboys fans? This board has been a pretty good resource for many years but as of late when I post I am reminded why posting doesn't generate the value it once did.

 

[Xue]

A kickoff is a free ball.

It's not a free ball for the kicking team, only the receiving team.

It does not have to be touched or fumbled by the receiving team to be recovered by the kicking team (as long as it goes 10 yards).

And if it goes 50 yards in the air before landing? The kicking team recovers and they take over the possession?

Recovering a muffed kickoff is not equivalent to a turnover. Same result as an onside kick.

Recovering a muffled kickoff is not equivalent to recovering an onside kick.An onside kick recovered by the kicking team is not a "fumble recovery" because no one on the receiving team was charged with a "lost fumble". Recovering a muffed kickoff is a "fumble recovery" because a player on the receiving team gets charged with a "lost fumble".

 

[The Man Who Met Andy Griffith]

This is not uncommon, it happens every year, multiple times per year.

It depends on your league's scoring rules.

This is definitely not a "fumble recovery", since you need to possess the ball before you can fumble it. Arizona never possessed it. (see also play-by-play at http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?g...;override=true).

It's also not a turnover, for the same reason. As JerseyPaul said, this was a live ball whether or not Campbell touched it.

This would be a lot easier if you quoted your written rules verbatim.

 

[Xue]

This is not uncommon, it happens every year, multiple times per year.

It depends on your league's scoring rules.

This is definitely not a "fumble recovery", since you need to possess the ball before you can fumble it. Arizona never possessed it. (see also play-by-play at http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/playbyplay?g...;override=true).

It's also not a turnover, for the same reason. As JerseyPaul said, this was a live ball whether or not Campbell touched it.

This would be a lot easier if you quoted your written rules verbatim.

You do not need to possess the ball to fumble it on a kickoff return. Arizona was getting the ball whether they touched it or not. If no Arizona player touches the ball and it is recovered by Dallas, Dallas' offense takes over? Uh, no. It's called "downing the ball".If you check the box score: http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/boxscore?gam...p;override=true

Tashard Choice gets credited with a "fumble recovery" and Calais Campbell gets charged with a "lost fumble". Now tell me again why this isn't a "fumble recovery"?