Democratic Debate (1 Viewer)

[Shula-holic]

Chris Matthews is roasting Bernie's campaign manager right now on MSNBC.

 

[ffldrew]

Funny thing about her charge that he called for a primary challenge is that she was ready to pounce into the 2012 election at the moment if Obama would have shown some weakness

 

[Higgs]

Hillary characterizing Bernie's criticisms of Obama as personal was bull ####. Very subtle, ugly form of race baiting imo.

 

[TripItUp]

Chris Matthews is roasting Bernie's campaign manager right now on MSNBC.

MSNBC has been in the tank for Hill dawg from day 1.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Hillary is good.

 

[timschochet]

Who are the VP's going to be. That is going to be huge.

Castro for Hillary

The other Castro for Sanders

That's my joke and you stole it.

 

[Smack Tripper]

I always figured Obama wanted no part of her as SoS but made the deal for the endorsement and to avoid the brokered convention.

As she drags Obama down a bit with the "well heeeeeeeeeee took wall street money too" talk would be interesting to see if he pivots on her

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Who are the VP's going to be. That is going to be huge.

Castro for Hillary

The other Castro for Sanders

That's my joke and you stole it.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, Tim.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

I always figured Obama wanted no part of her as SoS but made the deal for the endorsement and to avoid the brokered convention.

As she drags Obama down a bit with the "well heeeeeeeeeee took wall street money too" talk would be interesting to see if he pivots on her

Doubt it.

The one thing he never wanted was the wrath of Bill Clinton, who is still the face of the party IMO. No reason for him to say a thing until the people have picked the Dem rep.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Who are the VP's going to be. That is going to be huge.

Castro for Hillary

The other Castro for Sanders

That's my joke and you stole it.

Now you know how Sanders feels.

 

[ffldrew]

I always figured Obama wanted no part of her as SoS but made the deal for the endorsement and to avoid the brokered convention.

As she drags Obama down a bit with the "well heeeeeeeeeee took wall street money too" talk would be interesting to see if he pivots on her

Except this was the other part of the quid pro quo for Obama to deliver - elect Hillary in 2016.

It is amazing the uphill climb Bernie has here.

 

[Henry Ford]

Watched it on DVR delay, just finished. It's about time someone went ahead and called a halt to licking Kissinger's taint on foreign policy issues.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Chris Kofinis

Chris Kofinis – ‏@ChrisKofinis

Nevada focus group of #PBSdebate says @BernieSanders won tonight's debate by a 25 to 9 margin.

7:57 PM - 11 Feb 2016

 

[Sinn Fein]

PBS NewsHour Democratic Debate: The Worst Line Was...

YoungTurks - so don't watch if they are not your thing...

 

[Henry Ford]

that's great stuff from Bernie, you don't have to like it but that Kissinger attack was red meat for liberals.

Liberals over 70, that is.

Liberals who understand this country's foreign policy history and want to use it as a learning experience for our foreign policy future. And that's an important demographic for Sanders to court.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

that's great stuff from Bernie, you don't have to like it but that Kissinger attack was red meat for liberals.

Liberals over 70, that is.

Liberals who understand this country's foreign policy history and want to use it as a learning experience for our foreign policy future. And that's an important demographic for Sanders to court.

I'd actually say that younger liberals are more likely to be hostile to Kissinger. They're the ones who read Glenn Greenwald. The Kissinger thing is a microcosm of the case against Clinton. It's not that I think that she's corrupt or evil. It's that she's so at home in a system that is so comfortable in letting Henry Kissinger be an elder statesman. Where you're considered "unserious" if you point out that he was, you know, a war criminal.

 

[timschochet]

that's great stuff from Bernie, you don't have to like it but that Kissinger attack was red meat for liberals.

Liberals over 70, that is.

Liberals who understand this country's foreign policy history and want to use it as a learning experience for our foreign policy future. And that's an important demographic for Sanders to court.

I disagree that what Bernie had to say about Kissinger displays an understanding of this country's foreign policy history, except from a very particular point of view which I don't fully agree with. I'm sure Howard Zinn (if he was still alive) would be applauding Bernie this morning, as would Noam Chomsky and others on the left who see the USA as the world's major villain, committing one act after another of corporate greed. Heck I'm surprised Bernie didnt bring up Allende last night.

 

[timschochet]

that's great stuff from Bernie, you don't have to like it but that Kissinger attack was red meat for liberals.

Liberals over 70, that is.

Liberals who understand this country's foreign policy history and want to use it as a learning experience for our foreign policy future. And that's an important demographic for Sanders to court.

I'd actually say that younger liberals are more likely to be hostile to Kissinger. They're the ones who read Glenn Greenwald. The Kissinger thing is a microcosm of the case against Clinton. It's not that I think that she's corrupt or evil. It's that she's so at home in a system that is so comfortable in letting Henry Kissinger be an elder statesman. Where you're considered "unserious" if you point out that he was, you know, a war criminal.

I would consider that unserious.

 

[Henry Ford]

that's great stuff from Bernie, you don't have to like it but that Kissinger attack was red meat for liberals.

Liberals over 70, that is.

Liberals who understand this country's foreign policy history and want to use it as a learning experience for our foreign policy future. And that's an important demographic for Sanders to court.

I disagree that what Bernie had to say about Kissinger displays an understanding of this country's foreign policy history, except from a very particular point of view which I don't fully agree with. I'm sure Howard Zinn (if he was still alive) would be applauding Bernie this morning, as would Noam Chomsky and others on the left who see the USA as the world's major villain, committing one act after another of corporate greed. Heck I'm surprised Bernie didnt bring up Allende last night.

I'm a little surprised you're a Kissinger supporter.

 

[Henry Ford]

that's great stuff from Bernie, you don't have to like it but that Kissinger attack was red meat for liberals.

Liberals over 70, that is.

Liberals who understand this country's foreign policy history and want to use it as a learning experience for our foreign policy future. And that's an important demographic for Sanders to court.

I disagree that what Bernie had to say about Kissinger displays an understanding of this country's foreign policy history, except from a very particular point of view which I don't fully agree with. I'm sure Howard Zinn (if he was still alive) would be applauding Bernie this morning, as would Noam Chomsky and others on the left who see the USA as the world's major villain, committing one act after another of corporate greed. Heck I'm surprised Bernie didnt bring up Allende last night.

I'm a little surprised you're a Kissinger supporter.

I'm not. Tim's a Nixon fan.

Huh.

 

[Henry Ford]

that's great stuff from Bernie, you don't have to like it but that Kissinger attack was red meat for liberals.

Liberals over 70, that is.

Liberals who understand this country's foreign policy history and want to use it as a learning experience for our foreign policy future. And that's an important demographic for Sanders to court.

I'd actually say that younger liberals are more likely to be hostile to Kissinger. They're the ones who read Glenn Greenwald. The Kissinger thing is a microcosm of the case against Clinton. It's not that I think that she's corrupt or evil. It's that she's so at home in a system that is so comfortable in letting Henry Kissinger be an elder statesman. Where you're considered "unserious" if you point out that he was, you know, a war criminal.

I would consider that unserious.

Then I certainly understand your support for Clinton better.

 

[timschochet]

I wouldn't call myself a supporter. I just don't like to look at the world in black and white terms.

You know who else doesn't either? Daniel Ellsberg. Back in college I attended a series of lectures by Ellsberg and got to meet him. Fascinating guy. Very much to the left. But he was Kissinger's protege in the State Department. And he described a brilliant man whom he disagreed with much of the time but respected.

Henry Kissinger was the architect behind the bombing of Cambodia and the removal of Allende in Chile. For these acts he has been castigated by liberals for decades. But he also was the man behind negotiating an end to the Vietnam War, detente with the Soviet Union, Nixon visiting China, paving the way for Egypt's recognition of Israel, and I have barely scratched the surface. It's a complicated, nuanced record.

 

[Henry Ford]

I wouldn't call myself a supporter. I just don't like to look at the world in black and white terms.

You know who else doesn't either? Daniel Ellsberg. Back in college I attended a series of lectures by Ellsberg and got to meet him. Fascinating guy. Very much to the left. But he was Kissinger's protege in the State Department. And he described a brilliant man whom he disagreed with much of the time but respected.

Henry Kissinger was the architect behind the bombing of Cambodia and the removal of Allende in Chile. For these acts he has been castigated by liberals for decades. But he also was the man behind negotiating an end to the Vietnam War, detente with the Soviet Union, Nixon visiting China, paving the way for Egypt's recognition of Israel, and I have barely scratched the surface. It's a complicated, nuanced record.

It's complex, I'm not sure it's nuanced. And the fact that he did some impressive things doesn't make him not a war criminal. Or a complete scumbag in many ways.

 

[bud29]

PBS Moderators Spend First 10 Minutes of Debate Asking Candidates For Fundraising Advice

 

[Smack Tripper]

I wouldn't call myself a supporter. I just don't like to look at the world in black and white terms.

You know who else doesn't either? Daniel Ellsberg. Back in college I attended a series of lectures by Ellsberg and got to meet him. Fascinating guy. Very much to the left. But he was Kissinger's protege in the State Department. And he described a brilliant man whom he disagreed with much of the time but respected.

Henry Kissinger was the architect behind the bombing of Cambodia and the removal of Allende in Chile. For these acts he has been castigated by liberals for decades. But he also was the man behind negotiating an end to the Vietnam War, detente with the Soviet Union, Nixon visiting China, paving the way for Egypt's recognition of Israel, and I have barely scratched the surface. It's a complicated, nuanced record.

Your support of Hillary is much more understandable in this context of willing to look past the records of people.

And while they were deciding on what shape the table should be at the Paris peace talks, thousands died. And I submit detente was achieved much more through mutually assured destruction than Kissinger

 

[RCon]

timschochet has made no bones about the fact that he firmly believes in "means to an end". If the end is noble and/or desirable, then virtually any means to that end are justified (e.g. his support for NSA spying). If nothing else, he's remarkably consistent in this view.

 

[skol asylum]

Hillary Milhouse Clinton likes Kissinger? Shocking.

 

[Higgs]

timschochet has made no bones about the fact that he firmly believes in "means to an end". If the end is noble and/or desirable, then virtually any means to that end are justified (e.g. his support for NSA spying). If nothing else, he's remarkably consistent in this view.

Is that true? If so I'd love to hear the moral justification for this. Would probably make for a great thread in here.

 

[The Commish]

timschochet has made no bones about the fact that he firmly believes in "means to an end". If the end is noble and/or desirable, then virtually any means to that end are justified (e.g. his support for NSA spying). If nothing else, he's remarkably consistent in this view.

Is that true? If so I'd love to hear the moral justification for this. Would probably make for a great thread in here.

his words here seem to suggest it's true. whether he's aware of that

 

[timschochet]

timschochet has made no bones about the fact that he firmly believes in "means to an end". If the end is noble and/or desirable, then virtually any means to that end are justified (e.g. his support for NSA spying). If nothing else, he's remarkably consistent in this view.

Is that true? If so I'd love to hear the moral justification for this. Would probably make for a great thread in here.

Its not as simple as he's making it out. It depends on the situation. It's easy to judge people and actions afterward, but devisions at the time they're made are rarely as black and white as people try to make them. And especially when it comes to foreign policy, it's very hard to govern with a moralistic tone. Let me offer the ultimate example: Josef Stalin was arguably the greatest monster who ever lived. Yet we allied ourself with him, gave him aid, made him more powerful than ever, gave him the means to subjugate and make slaves out of half of Europe. We all know why we did this- to combat a greater threat. But the moral purist would not agree with this decision. To the purist, the ends can NEVER justify the means. I say it can- some of the time.

And I think in this instance Bernie would agree with me. He approved earlier in his career of working with the Soviet Union. He wants us to have normal relations with Cuba. He's for talking to Iran. But he was against trading with Apartheid South Africa. He was against our ties to right wing El Salvador and he supported the Sandinistas. When someone on the right commits a moral outrage he condemns it loudly; when it's done on the left he's been silent. And this too fits right in with his lifetime of leftist ideology.

 

[Higgs]

timschochet has made no bones about the fact that he firmly believes in "means to an end". If the end is noble and/or desirable, then virtually any means to that end are justified (e.g. his support for NSA spying). If nothing else, he's remarkably consistent in this view.

Is that true? If so I'd love to hear the moral justification for this. Would probably make for a great thread in here.

Its not as simple as he's making it out. It depends on the situation. It's easy to judge people and actions afterward, but devisions at the time they're made are rarely as black and white as people try to make them. And especially when it comes to foreign policy, it's very hard to govern with a moralistic tone. Let me offer the ultimate example: Josef Stalin was arguably the greatest monster who ever lived. Yet we allied ourself with him, gave him aid, made him more powerful than ever, gave him the means to subjugate and make slaves out of half of Europe. We all know why we did this- to combat a greater threat. But the moral purist would not agree with this decision. To the purist, the ends can NEVER justify the means. I say it can- some of the time.

And I think in this instance Bernie would agree with me. He approved earlier in his career of working with the Soviet Union. He wants us to have normal relations with Cuba. He's for talking to Iran. But he was against trading with Apartheid South Africa. He was against our ties to right wing El Salvador and he supported the Sandinistas. When someone on the right commits a moral outrage he condemns it loudly; when it's done on the left he's been silent. And this too fits right in with his lifetime of leftist ideology.

That's amazing. I just listened to a debate this morning between Dinesh D'Souza and Bill Ayers on American Exceptionalism, and this is almost word for word what D'Souza said. His criticism was that those on the Left don't take into account the political realities of the time and hence do a lot of revisionist history. He refers to American foreign policy "The Principle of the Lesser Evil". It starts at 31:10. http://youtu.be/LWxCxMy-_s0. Never thought I'd hear the day where you and Dinesh agree on something.

 

[timschochet]

D'Souza might claim to have an opinion similar to mine but he doesn't live up to it any more than Bernie does. He blindly supported the war against I'm Iraq. he blindly opposes Obama's deal with Iran. Neither position is an example of realpolitik IMO.

I used to enjoy listening to him but that ridiculous film he made about Obama showed him to be a conspiracy theorist with no credibility.

 

[RCon]

timschochet has made no bones about the fact that he firmly believes in "means to an end". If the end is noble and/or desirable, then virtually any means to that end are justified (e.g. his support for NSA spying). If nothing else, he's remarkably consistent in this view.

Is that true? If so I'd love to hear the moral justification for this. Would probably make for a great thread in here.

Its not as simple as he's making it out. It depends on the situation. It's easy to judge people and actions afterward, but devisions at the time they're made are rarely as black and white as people try to make them. And especially when it comes to foreign policy, it's very hard to govern with a moralistic tone.Let me offer the ultimate example: Josef Stalin was arguably the greatest monster who ever lived. Yet we allied ourself with him, gave him aid, made him more powerful than ever, gave him the means to subjugate and make slaves out of half of Europe. We all know why we did this- to combat a greater threat. But the moral purist would not agree with this decision. To the purist, the ends can NEVER justify the means. I say it can- some of the time.

And I think in this instance Bernie would agree with me. He approved earlier in his career of working with the Soviet Union. He wants us to have normal relations with Cuba. He's for talking to Iran. But he was against trading with Apartheid South Africa. He was against our ties to right wing El Salvador and he supported the Sandinistas. When someone on the right commits a moral outrage he condemns it loudly; when it's done on the left he's been silent. And this too fits right in with his lifetime of leftist ideology.

But the truth is, you are far more forgiving of the means that most people. You've posted in the past that corruption in politicians isn't a big deal, and can even be admirable, as long as those politicians get things done. I don't remember the specific politician you were referring to at the time. You're in favor of the NSA's spying because the end is noble, in your opinion. You don't mind Hillary's ethical and honesty lapses because you think she'll be effective. You're willing to overlook the bad in Kissinger because you like what he did with China and Russia. Ditto "free trade" agreements that cause all sorts of harm.

It's a pattern with you, I suspect partially because you're not very cynical, and generally assume that those in positions of authority are telling the truth (the one exception here seems to be white cops in racial incidents).

 

[skol asylum]

Pretty clear this neocon foreign policy Tim is advocating has been a complete and utter failure. Yeah, let's double down on that.

 

[skol asylum]

On the other hand, i'm pro NSA and meta data capturing. Apples and oranges.

 

[Higgs]

D'Souza might claim to have an opinion similar to mine but he doesn't live up to it any more than Bernie does. He blindly supported the war against I'm Iraq. he blindly opposes Obama's deal with Iran. Neither position is an example of realpolitik IMO.

I used to enjoy listening to him but that ridiculous film he made about Obama showed him to be a conspiracy theorist with no credibility.

He's changed his position on the Iraq War and now admits it was a mistake. He even says so in this debate. If you don't like him now, get ready, because his next film is on the Clintons and it will be released this summer, assuming of course that Obama doesn't throw him in a federal prison for jaywalking.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

Anyone have a clue as to who the frontrunners are for VP?

Clinton VP?

Sanders VP?

TRUMP VP?

CRUZ VP?

TIA

 

[skol asylum]

D'Souza might claim to have an opinion similar to mine but he doesn't live up to it any more than Bernie does. He blindly supported the war against I'm Iraq. he blindly opposes Obama's deal with Iran. Neither position is an example of realpolitik IMO.

I used to enjoy listening to him but that ridiculous film he made about Obama showed him to be a conspiracy theorist with no credibility.

He's changed his position on the Iraq War and now admits it was a mistake. He even says so in this debate. Get ready, because he's finishing his next film on Hillary and it will be released this summer.

You might want to rethink your support for this moron:

The cultural left in this country is responsible for causing 9/11 ... the cultural left and its allies in Congress, the media, Hollywood, the non-profit sector and the universities are the primary cause of the volcano of anger toward America that is erupting from the Islamic world.

 Dinesh D'Souza, quoted in "How the left caused 9/11, by Dinesh DSouza"[29]

Really? Hollywood is to blame for Islamic hatred towards the West? Absolutely nothing to do with Real Politik support of ruthless dictators running Middle Eastern countries in order to secure favor for oil right? Geez.

 

[Higgs]

D'Souza might claim to have an opinion similar to mine but he doesn't live up to it any more than Bernie does. He blindly supported the war against I'm Iraq. he blindly opposes Obama's deal with Iran. Neither position is an example of realpolitik IMO.

I used to enjoy listening to him but that ridiculous film he made about Obama showed him to be a conspiracy theorist with no credibility.

He's changed his position on the Iraq War and now admits it was a mistake. He even says so in this debate. Get ready, because he's finishing his next film on Hillary and it will be released this summer.

You might want to rethink your support for this moron:

The cultural left in this country is responsible for causing 9/11 ... the cultural left and its allies in Congress, the media, Hollywood, the non-profit sector and the universities are the primary cause of the volcano of anger toward America that is erupting from the Islamic world.

 Dinesh D'Souza, quoted in "How the left caused 9/11, by Dinesh DSouza"[29]

Really? Hollywood is to blame for Islamic hatred towards the West? Absolutely nothing to do with Real Politik support of ruthless dictators running Middle Eastern countries in order to secure favor for oil right? Geez.

A dumb thing to say, for sure. But I'm not sure I buy that Hollywood has no negative effect on how Muslims view the Western world.Like most political commentators, Dinesh says some good stuff and occasionally says some stuff that is off the wall. I've listened to countless debates and speeches, though, and I've found him to be one of the best speakers on the political scene today. The guy is brilliant and his debating skills are second to none. And - I know you guys probably won't ever agree with this - but I've found him to be pretty fair in dealing with political opposition.

 

[timschochet]

Pretty clear this neocon foreign policy Tim is advocating has been a complete and utter failure. Yeah, let's double down on that.

If you think I'm neocon you need to read me again.

 

[crewmember]

Thom Hartman just did a sanders/mcgovern comparison tonight. His main point was that the youth of the mcgovern voter didn't go to a very high age. people around age 30 didn't have the same sense of betrayal by their government that people do today.

Wasn't Mcgovern's VP pick undergoing shock therapy a big deal?

Eitherway, polls show Sanders doing very well in a general election, so any comparison as far as Bernie not being electable just isn't based in reality.

Did he say that? Because that's just simply not true. Young people were being drafted and sent to fight in a war they didn't believe in, and they were scared of dying. You bet they felt betrayed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm7Q1C1KotE

couldn't find more specific age demos but it was 48-52 for voters under 30, 33-67 for voters 30-49, and 36-64 for voters 50+. Interesting that he did not do any better from 30-49 than he did 50+ http://www.gallup.com/poll/9457/election-polls-vote-groups-19681972.aspx

 

[crewmember]

Who are the VP's going to be. That is going to be huge.

Castro for Hillary

The other Castro for Sanders

That's my joke and you stole it.

Now you know how Sanders feels.

I like Ralph Nader's joke that calls Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio, Fidel Castro's great revenge on America

 

[skol asylum]

Pretty clear this neocon foreign policy Tim is advocating has been a complete and utter failure. Yeah, let's double down on that.

If you think I'm neocon you need to read me again.

As Hillary's #1 fan? Yeah i do.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

http://truthinmedia.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-delegates/

this can't be true?

 

[Hov34]

http://truthinmedia.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-delegates/

this can't be true?

You didn't actually think we have a say in who will be president, did you?

 

[Henry Ford]

http://truthinmedia.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-delegates/

this can't be true?

Sure it is. But they aren't committed until they cast their votes at the convention.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

http://truthinmedia.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-delegates/

this can't be true?

You didn't actually think we have a say in who will be president, did you?

http://truthinmedia.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-delegates/

this can't be true?

Sure it is. But they aren't committed until they cast their votes at the convention.

Well #### why do I even vote?

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

http://truthinmedia.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-delegates/

this can't be true?

You didn't actually think we have a say in who will be president, did you?

http://truthinmedia.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-delegates/

this can't be true?

Sure it is. But they aren't committed until they cast their votes at the convention.

Well #### why do I even vote?

Well it really doesn't matter I live in Oklahoma, so we will go Republican.

 

[Henry Ford]

http://truthinmedia.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-delegates/

this can't be true?

You didn't actually think we have a say in who will be president, did you?

http://truthinmedia.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-delegates/

this can't be true?

Sure it is. But they aren't committed until they cast their votes at the convention.

Well #### why do I even vote?

Because if the popular tide crushes Clinton, the superdelegates will move their support to Sanders.

 

[The_Man]

http://truthinmedia.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-delegates/

this can't be true?

You didn't actually think we have a say in who will be president, did you?

http://truthinmedia.com/bernie-sanders-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-delegates/

this can't be true?

Sure it is. But they aren't committed until they cast their votes at the convention.

Well #### why do I even vote?

No one's saying you can't vote. You just shouldn't necessarily expect your vote to count as much as the votes of those who know what's best.