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Democrats And Education - Matt Taibbi (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

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Had a friend share this and thought it was interesting:

The Democrats' Education Lunacies Will Bring Back Trump

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-democrats-education-lunacies

Terry McAuliffe lost the Virginia governor's race by saying, “I don’t think parents should be telling schools what to teach." If that was no gaffe, Democrats have a lot more significant losing ahead

On Meet the Press Daily last week, Chuck Todd featured a small item about the 23 Democrats not planning on running for re-reelection to congress next year. Todd guessed such a high number expressed a lack of confidence in next year’s midterms, and his guest, University of Virginia Center for Politics Director Larry Sabato, agreed. “This is just another indicator that Democrats will probably have a bad year in 2022,” said Sabato, adding, “They only have a majority of five. It’s pretty tough to see how they hold on.”

On the full Meet the Press Sunday, Todd in an ostensibly unrelated segment interviewed 1619 Project author and New York Times writer Nikole Hannah-Jones about Republican efforts in some states to ban teaching of her work. He detoured to ask about the Virginia governor’s race, which seemingly was decided on the question, “How influential should parents be about curriculum?” Given that Democrats lost Virginia after candidate Terry McAuliffe said, “I don’t think parents should be telling schools what to teach,” Todd asked her, “How do we do this?”

Hannah-Jones’s first answer was to chide Todd for not remembering that Virginia was lost not because of whatever unimportant thing he’d just said, but because of a “right-wing propaganda campaign that told white parents to fight against their children being indoctrinated.” This was standard pundit fare that for the millionth time showed a national media figure ignoring, say, the objections of Asian immigrant parents to Virginia policies, but whatever: her next response was more notable. “I don’t really understand this idea that parents should decide what’s being taught,” Hannah-Jones said. “I’m not a professional educator. I don’t have a degree in social studies or science.”

I’m against bills like the proposed Oklahoma measure that would ban the teaching of Jones’s work at all state-sponsored educational institutions. I think bans are counter-productive and politically a terrible move by Republicans, who undercut their own arguments against authoritarianism and in favor of “local control” with such sweeping statewide measures. Still, it was pretty rich hearing the author of The 1619 Project say she lacked the expertise to teach, given that a) many historians agree with her there, yet b) she’s been advocating for schools to teach her dubious work to students all over the country.

Even odder were her next comments, regarding McAuliffe’s infamous line about parents. About this, Hannah-Jones said:

We send our kids to school because we want our kids to be taught by people with expertise in the subject area… When the governor, or the candidate, said he didn’t think parents should be deciding what’s being taught in school, he was panned for that, but that’s just a fact.

In the wake of McAuliffe’s loss, the “I don’t think parents should be telling schools what to teach” line was universally tabbed a “gaffe” by media. I described it in the recent “Loudoun County: A Culture War in Four Acts” series in TK as the political equivalent of using a toe to shoot your face off with a shotgun, but this was actually behind the news cycle. Yahoo! said the “gaffe precipitated the Democrat’s slide in the polls,” while the Daily Beast’s blunter headline was, “Terry McAuliffe’s White-Guy Confidence Just ####ed the Dems.”

However, much like the Hillary Clinton quote about “deplorables,” conventional wisdom after the “gaffe” soon hardened around the idea that what McAuliffe said wasn’t wrong at all. In fact, people like Hannah-Jones are now doubling down and applying to education the same formula that Democrats brought with disastrous results to a whole range of other issues in the Trump years, telling voters that they should get over themselves and learn to defer to “experts” and “expertise.”

This was a bad enough error in 2016 when neither Democrats nor traditional Republicans realized how furious the public was with “experts” on Wall Street who designed horrifically unequal bailouts, or “experts” on trade who promised technical retraining that never arrived to make up for NAFTA job josses, or Pentagon “experts” who promised we’d find WMDs in Iraq and be greeted as liberators there, and so on, and so on. Ignoring that drumbeat, and advising Hillary Clinton to run on her 25 years of “experience” as the ultimate Washington insider, won the Democratic Party leaders four years of Donald Trump.

It was at least understandable how national pols could once believe the public valued their “professional” governance on foreign policy, trade, the economy, etc. Many of these matters probably shouldn’t be left to amateurs (although as has been revealed over and over of late, the lofty reputations of experts often turn out to be based mainly upon their fluidity with gibberish occupational jargon), and disaster probably would ensue if your average neophyte was suddenly asked to revamp, say, the laws governing securities clearing.

But parenting? For good reason, there’s no parent anywhere who believes that any “expert” knows what’s better for their kids than they do. Parents of course will rush to seek out a medical expert when a child is sick, or has a learning disability, or is depressed, or mired in a hundred other dilemmas. Even through these inevitable terrifying crises of child rearing, however, all parents are alike in being animated by the absolute certainty — and they’re virtually always right in this — that no one loves their children more than they do, or worries about them more, or agonizes even a fraction as much over how best to shepherd them to adulthood happy and in one piece.

Implying the opposite is a political error of almost mathematically inexpressible enormity. This is being done as part of a poisonous rhetorical two-step. First, Democrats across the country have instituted radical policy changes, mainly in an effort to address socioeconomic and racial disparities. These included eliminating standardized testing to the University of California system, doing away with gifted programs (and rejecting the concept of gifted children in general), replacing courses like calculus with data science or statistics to make advancement easier, and pushing a series of near-parodical ideas with the aid of hundreds of millions of dollars from groups like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation that include things like denouncing emphasis on “getting the right answer” or “independent practice over teamwork” as white supremacy.

When criticism ensued, pundits first denied as myth all rumors of radical change, then denounced complaining parents as belligerent racists unfit to decide what should be taught to their children, all while reaffirming the justice of leaving such matters to the education “experts” who’d spent the last decade-plus doing things like legislating grades out of existence. This “parents should leave ruining education to us” approach cost McAuliffe Virginia, because it dovetailed with what parents had long been seeing and hearing on the ground.

 
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1) I agree that this issue is politically damaging to Democrats.

2) I also think this whole curriculum fight is completely inconsequential in comparison to other issues facing our education system.

 
It’s a real issue. 
I think Critical Race Theory needs to be taught. I’ve changed my mind on that; I’m for it. But it’s going to piss a lot of parents off and Republicans will be successful running against it. 
 

In 20 years from now this won’t be an issue. The major elements of CRT will be taught everywhere and conservatives won’t bother to fight it. But this sort of struggle occurs every time there is this sort of change and those opposed always win temporary victories. 

 
It’s a real issue. 
I think Critical Race Theory needs to be taught. I’ve changed my mind on that; I’m for it. But it’s going to piss a lot of parents off and Republicans will be successful running against it. 
 

In 20 years from now this won’t be an issue. The major elements of CRT will be taught everywhere and conservatives won’t bother to fight it. But this sort of struggle occurs every time there is this sort of change and those opposed always win temporary victories. 


it won't be an issue because it won't be taught anywhere.  You really want things to get worse?  Just try teaching white people's kids that they are inherently bad for simply being white - parents wont stand for that.

Now let's do a thought experiment - Switch the two colors around.  Pretend that were teaching black kids that they're inherently bad for being black.  How do you feel now?

 
Matt Taibbi is an insurrectionist. I'm surprised the owner of this site supports this. 
He’s a radical leftist who, much like Glenn Greenwald, spends more of his time attacking Democrats rather than Republicans, in part because he regards our entire system as evil, and in part because he resents not being invited to be on MSNBC. 

 
it won't be an issue because it won't be taught anywhere.  You really want things to get worse?  Just try teaching white people's kids that they are inherently bad for simply being white - parents wont stand for that.

Now let's do a thought experiment - Switch the two colors around.  Pretend that were teaching black kids that they're inherently bad for being black.  How do you feel now?
That’s not what CRT is about. It’s what YOU think it’s about but it’s not accurate. This misunderstanding is part of why your victories will be temporary. 

 
That’s not what CRT is about. It’s what YOU think it’s about but it’s not accurate. This misunderstanding is part of why your victories will be temporary. 


Sorry, Tim, but you're wrong.  :shrug:

That's EXACTLY what it is in it's current form.  The misunderstanding is that you keep sugar-coating it with your white guilt.  Slavery is not your fault, Tim.  It's time to accept that.

 
Sorry, Tim, but you're wrong.  :shrug:

That's EXACTLY what it is in it's current form.  The misunderstanding is that you keep sugar-coating it with your white guilt.  Slavery is not your fault, Tim.  It's time to accept that.
We’re talking over each other. 
Slavery is not my fault and if someone suggested that our children should be taught otherwise, I would oppose that. But that’s not what’s being proposed. 
I don’t have any white guilt. Like every white person in this country, I have privilege based on my race. I don’t feel bad about this and I don’t want to give it up. I just want every other race to enjoy the same advantages and opportunities. 

 
We’re talking over each other. 
Slavery is not my fault and if someone suggested that our children should be taught otherwise, I would oppose that. But that’s not what’s being proposed. 
I don’t have any white guilt. Like every white person in this country, I have privilege based on my race. I don’t feel bad about this and I don’t want to give it up. I just want every other race to enjoy the same advantages and opportunities. 


By berating and taking down white people?  That's a non-starter and that's what CRT is.

 
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Thanks Joe...politically the consequences of this could be generational...parents should not be writing the syllabus for a classroom but to think they should not have influence over hot-button social topics that go outside the boundaries of reading, riting and rithmetic is creepy...the education-sector has long been run by the left but instead of having a quiet-hand in what is being taught it is now turning into a sledgehammer as many educators and administrators are "true-believers" of their agenda and are very open with their bias...as you saw in Virginia once the light is shined on this agenda it will receive a furious response by parents and not just by those who lean right but by those that are Independent, lean left and are of various color and ethnicity...if the dems start consistently losing the "soccer Mom" vote (and they will due to this) they will be in awful shape politically...I have often said in these forums that political correctness/wokeness is the most important issue in America because it infects every area of our lives...there are some areas where people will look past but when it comes to their kids they will not and should not allow agenda-driven people to attempt to indoctrinate them against the will of their parents, this is not Moscow circa 1965...this topic has a real chance to become the #1 topic in the country and there is no way the left will win this debate because at some point just like what happened in Virginia what they really believe will come out and labeling it a gaffe will not correct it.

 
I do want to add, as I noted in the other thread- all of this discussion by parents and teachers about what’s being taught in history classes misses the key point which is that most students HATE history classes, they find them boring and don’t retain anything they learn. 
Unless you can fix this, it doesn’t matter what is taught. 

 
Lack of quality education has been the single biggest issue this nation has faced for decades.  Fix it, the other big issues like crime, drugs, mostly go away.  The issue is in can't be done in 4 years

Regarding CRT, I believe it's a relatively rare to be on the curriculum?  There was a big uproar about it where I live, people yelling at school board meetings and such, but was about nothing as it wasn't even being taught. 

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with it but I think all things should be taught.  For example there should  be a lot more attention paid to world religions in our public schools.  I know that would make some on the left lose THEIR mind but it's so important.  I'm not suggesting indoctrination to Christianity or any other religion for that matter.  It's about teaching our children critical thinking, not dates of famous events they will forget moments after the exam.

 
I don't fully understand why this is a political loser issue. Why would we want parents determining school curriculum over experts in the individual areas of study?

 
I don't fully understand why this is a political loser issue. Why would we want parents determining school curriculum over experts in the individual areas of study?
Because it seems political ideologies and personal preferences have started to have far too big of a role with many educators

 
Lack of quality education has been the single biggest issue this nation has faced for decades.  Fix it, the other big issues like crime, drugs, mostly go away.  The issue is in can't be done in 4 years
Completely, 100% disagree. 
Bad parenting is the biggest problem we’ve faced.  Fix that and most other issues go away or are dampened.

 
Had a friend share this and thought it was interesting:

The Democrats' Education Lunacies Will Bring Back Trump

https://taibbi.substack.com/p/the-democrats-education-lunacies
Taibbi is spot on.  It’s absurd that most parents think they know best what should be taught and how it should be taught.  But that’s our reality — most people think they know more than experts.  (About pretty much the majority of topics).  Is that idiotic?  Sure.  But it’s reality.

My cousin is one of the most ignorant people to walk the face of the earth.  But she 100% believes she knows more than education experts, medical doctors, economists, etc etc etc.  This is where we are as a nation.

Slight aside:  Taibbi may be a leftist, but he hates the Democratic Party more than the most ardent Trump supporters.  But that doesn’t make him wrong about this issue.

 
Taibbi is spot on.  It’s absurd that most parents think they know best what should be taught and how it should be taught.  But that’s our reality — most people think they know more than experts.  (About pretty much the majority of topics).  Is that idiotic?  Sure.  But it’s reality.

My cousin is one of the most ignorant people to walk the face of the earth.  But she 100% believes she knows more than education experts, medical doctors, economists, etc etc etc.  This is where we are as a nation.

Slight aside:  Taibbi may be a leftist, but he hates the Democratic Party more than the most ardent Trump supporters.  But that doesn’t make him wrong about this issue.
I'll partially disagree in this manner.  I thibk its ok for parents to want to have a say on whats taught.   Some parents don't want schools teaching kids that guns are good,  or getting into the abortion debate.   

However how things are taught should be left to the experts

 
No. I asked why would we (meaning we, as a society) want parents determining school curriculum over experts in the respective fields.
And I answered you with my opinion why. Then you responded with something that made literally no sense to your question or my reply 

 
I don't fully understand why this is a political loser issue. Why would we want parents determining school curriculum over experts in the individual areas of study?
I’d say I would want parents (or parents proxies via elected officials, school boards) heavily involved in determining the curriculum (like teach physics, biology, chemistry…don’t teach about gender fluidity or whatever) but then I’d leave it to the experts to write the books and lessons.

Citizenry demanding their elected officials represent them properly seems like basic goodness.

That doesn’t mean I want parents writing chemistry books.

 
.  But that’s our reality — most people think they know more than experts.  (About pretty much the majority of topics).  Is that idiotic?  Sure.  But it’s reality
At the risk of being criticized for partisanship, I have to say: this is a conservative thing. Liberals tend to trust the experts. 

 
I’d say I would want parents (or parents proxies via elected officials, school boards) heavily involved in determining the curriculum (like teach physics, biology, chemistry…don’t teach about gender fluidity or whatever) but then I’d leave it to the experts to write the books and lessons.

Citizenry demanding their elected officials represent them properly seems like basic goodness.

That doesn’t mean I want parents writing chemistry books.
30 years ago when I went to HS in a majority Conservative area of small city NC, I read Malcolm X and Betty Friedan as part of my 11th grade US history reading list. Do you think parents should have been able to outlaw these choices as being too radical? Like we should have taken a poll at the PTA to make sure they agreed with the reading list?

 
30 years ago when I went to HS in a majority Conservative area of small city NC, I read Malcolm X and Betty Friedan as part of my 11th grade US history reading list. Do you think parents should have been able to outlaw these choices as being too radical? Like we should have taken a poll at the PTA to make sure they agreed with the reading list?
I think about this no differently than any other governmental function.

Citizens chose the people to represent them.  Parents are citizens and they should choose the people to to represent them in determining how schools are run.  If they are not happy with the performance of these representatives they should demonstrate that dissatisfaction to affect the change they want.

You may not like the outcomes.  What process would you propose, that someone gets minted with an education degree from Harvard and determines k-9 curriculum and is unanswerable to the parents?

 
I think about this no differently than any other governmental function.

Citizens chose the people to represent them.  Parents are citizens and they should choose the people to to represent them in determining how schools are run.  If they are not happy with the performance of these representatives they should demonstrate that dissatisfaction to affect the change they want.

You may not like the outcomes.  What process would you propose, that someone gets minted with an education degree from Harvard and determines k-9 curriculum and is unanswerable to the parents?
Suppose Kyrie Irving and a bunch of other flat-Earthers insisted that the Earth is round  no longer be taught in school? If they somehow mustered a majority, would you be OK with that? Or would you insist that science teachers ignore them? 

 
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At the risk of being criticized for partisanship, I have to say: this is a conservative thing. Liberals tend to trust the experts. 
And thats a true difference.   Liberals want to be led.  Conservatives want those elected or nominated to not lead, but instead to represent their positions. 

 
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Suppose Kyrie Irving and a bunch of other flat-Earthers insisted that the Earth is round  no longer be taught in school? If they somehow mustered a majority, would you be OK with that? Or would you insist that science teachers ignore them? 
Poor analogy.  What if the humanities teacher decides guns should be distributed to all people.  Or that interracial marriage is bad.  Think parents would want a say in that?

 
Suppose Kyrie Irving and a bunch of other flat-Earthers insisted that the Earth is round  no longer be taught in school? If they somehow mustered a majority, would you be OK with that? Or would you insist that science teachers ignore them? 
I’d be as ok with it as I would if the country decided to elect Marjorie Taylor Green president.

 
And thats a true difference.   Liberals want to be led.  Conservatives want those elected or nominated to not lead, but instead to represent their positions. 
If this is true how do you explain Trumpism and the hero worship? It would be hard to deny that the overwhelming vast majority of ardent Trump supporters are conservative. 

 
I think about this no differently than any other governmental function.

Citizens chose the people to represent them.  Parents are citizens and they should choose the people to to represent them in determining how schools are run.  If they are not happy with the performance of these representatives they should demonstrate that dissatisfaction to affect the change they want.

You may not like the outcomes.  What process would you propose, that someone gets minted with an education degree from Harvard and determines k-9 curriculum and is unanswerable to the parents?
Certainly that is how school boards work. However, the end result would be excluding works from AP course reading lists. The end result can be science books teaching creationism.

 
I’d be as ok with it as I would if the country decided to elect Marjorie Taylor Green president.
In other words: vox populi, vox dei 

But that’s not the way it works in this country. There are certain things that we leave out of the hands of the people. Public education curriculum being one of those things, for good reason. 

 
In other words: vox populi, vox dei 

But that’s not the way it works in this country. There are certain things that we leave out of the hands of the people. Public education curriculum being one of those things, for good reason. 
I’m not a public education expert, are you saying that public education today does not answer to representatives of our citizens?

Its managed and operated by independent bodies that just anoint themselves?

 
Because Trump represents what they want.  
That’s an interesting theory there, must be nice to eat your cake and have it too.   So when conservatives follow someone (or in this case worship at the alter, call him father, etc etc) it’s simply because they just agree with what they represent. But when liberals do the same it’s because they want to be lead.  Interesting.  

 
I’m not a public education expert, are you saying that public education today does not answer to representatives of our citizens?

Its managed and operated by independent bodies that just anoint themselves?
Of course not. Parents have influence. They elect school boards. They should have a say. But a say is not the same as control. There are certain requirements that are outside the realm of parental decision making. 

 
Of course not. Parents have influence. They elect school boards. They should have a say. But a say is not the same as control. There are certain requirements that are outside the realm of parental decision making. 
Yah so I'm probably missing where there is a big disconnect.

Are folks on the opposite side of your argument suggesting that any elements of schools should be managed via parent ballots?

I think trying to contrast "a say" and "control" is difficult.  Parents elect school boards.  I wouldn't call that a say or control...but they determine who sits on the board and I think its very healthy for those board members to go about their jobs like the parents are their bosses.  Its the same way I'd want any elected official to behave on my behalf.

 
Yah so I'm probably missing where there is a big disconnect.

Are folks on the opposite side of your argument suggesting that any elements of schools should be managed via parent ballots?

I think trying to contrast "a say" and "control" is difficult.  Parents elect school boards.  I wouldn't call that a say or control...but they determine who sits on the board and I think its very healthy for those board members to go about their jobs like the parents are their bosses.  Its the same way I'd want any elected official to behave on my behalf.


Not arguing, but just wanted to note that parents of current students are only a small subset of the group that elects school boards and might be considered "their bosses."

 
I think education has the potential to hurt the Democrats, but it's not about (or, at least not primarily about) CRT. I think the bigger issue by far is Covid and school closures. I live in Florida and am not by any means a fan of our governor, but even I have to admit he was right to push for schools to reopen in the fall of 2020. When I would talk with my friends who are parents up north, even the most liberal among them were filled with rage at the constant closures, quarantines, hygiene theater, etc. After last fall's election, I sent this article to a HS friend in New Jersey with three kids who is constantly complaining on Facebook about the local schools. She said even though she was far too distrustful of Republicans to vote against Murphy, she absolutely related to the views expressed.

At this point, hopefully school closures are behind us. But I do think the issue will retain symbolic significance going forward as an example of Democrats pursuing policies based on ideology and obeisance to the teachers' union rather than on what's on the best interest of kids.

 

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