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Democrats starting to get the message? (1 Viewer)

Don't Noonan said:
Who said 30k income is egregiously luxurious?   Supply and demand should determine wages not some artificial floor.
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Why? And more importantly, can you see why some theoretically perfectly competitive labor market doesn't actually exist, and why even if it did, we'd have significant problems with things like food supply, energy supply, and social programs?

 
jonessed said:
That's not attacking citizens though.  If we can't frame policy discussions as policy discussions and not an "attack" on those impacted not much will ever change.
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I reframed it as the abolition of those policies would harm citizens. I further said that if we can modify those policies (or abolish and replace) so that citizens continue to be helped at the same or, hopefully, higher levels while also accomplishing whatever it is the other side of the debate wants to see happen then I'm all for it.

 
Rich Conway said:
A true big, bold idea would be scrapping minimum wage and instituting a B.I.G.
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This post didn't get enough attention. Tweaking the minimum wage is a stopgap at this point. Unless we're heading into a technological dark age (and if we get more administrations + congresses like what we have now, we could end up there), we're going to have some serious problems if we don't address the notion of work for pay in an increasingly automated economy. I don't know if it's a political winner to get out in front of that at this time, but somebody needs to start accounting for this long term. It will become the issue sooner than many think.

 
timschochet said:
The key to our prosperity is greater economic growth. We have had 2% annual growth for years now and we have to increase that percentage or we will never get out of this rut. Does this proposal help or hurt? 

Also, does raising the minimum wage truly increase the spending power of those who receive it? Doesn't it threaten to create inflation which will make the increase negligible? 
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It helps. People who can barely afford what they need to live tend to spend all the money they receive immediately, and at places that tend to pay minimum wage. On the other hand, when you give people with disposable income more money, they don't tend to spend it immediately, and when they do it's for a want instead of need, which is typically at places that don't tend to pay minimum wage. 

As for causing inflation, things like food and energy are not included in calculating inflation, where as they are included in calculating GDP growth. 

 
tommyGunZ said:
I love how the idea of a 30k income is so egregiously luxurious to a bunch of white guys making 3-5 times that amount playing on a computer message board all day.  
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But you act like we never were there.  I think most of us (and honestly, most successful people) started with low paying jobs.  Whether it was during high school, during college, whatever....

If minimum wage isn't enough money for you, guess what?  There's a lot of ways in this great country to increase that.

 
eoMMan said:
But you act like we never were there.  I think most of us (and honestly, most successful people) started with low paying jobs.  Whether it was during high school, during college, whatever....

If minimum wage isn't enough money for you, guess what?  There's a lot of ways in this great country to increase that.
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Not for everybody.

There are some people who no matter how hard they try, no matter how hard they work, no matter how hard they improve themselves, will never get ahead in life, because they were not born with what it takes to get ahead in life. The best they have to offer society will never be more than what a lot of other people have to offer society. And when what you have to offer is a dime a dozen, then what you are worth is one twelfth of a dime. And truth be told, they can't live on that. 

 
Gr00vus said:
This post didn't get enough attention. Tweaking the minimum wage is a stopgap at this point. Unless we're heading into a technological dark age (and if we get more administrations + congresses like what we have now, we could end up there), we're going to have some serious problems if we don't address the notion of work for pay in an increasingly automated economy. I don't know if it's a political winner to get out in front of that at this time, but somebody needs to start accounting for this long term. It will become the issue sooner than many think.
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I posted about this a bit earlier that NPR reported apparently some tech companies are doing a pilot program in Oakland providing a BIG. Not sure about the details, I'll look it up later.

But the fact is that as we turn increasingly towards automation in manufacturing and AI in the non-manufacturing positions we are going to have to turn towards some form of BIG in a national scale.

 
Politician Spock said:
Not for everybody.

There are some people who no matter how hard they try, no matter how hard they work, no matter how hard they improve themselves, will never get ahead in life,
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No matter how hard they try?  No matter how hard they work?

Uhhh...sorry, but this is just wrong.  I'm definitely not arguing that it isn't easier for some people but show me someone who is willing to put in 60 hour work weeks, someone who iis willing to learn to new things, willing to not go buy the latest iPhone, willing to not lease a new car, willing to not have 8 kids, etc. etc. etc. and I will show you someone who will be successful one day.

 
eoMMan said:
No matter how hard they try?  No matter how hard they work?

Uhhh...sorry, but this is just wrong.  I'm definitely not arguing that it isn't easier for some people but show me someone who is willing to put in 60 hour work weeks, someone who iis willing to learn to new things, willing to not go buy the latest iPhone, willing to not lease a new car, willing to not have 8 kids, etc. etc. etc. and I will show you someone who will be successful one day.
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Well that is the dream we've been sold. Unfortunately in the real world, success is limited to those who have something to offer that is exceptional, and as such the market price for what they have to offer is an exceptional price. The rest are just commodities, and get the market price for commodities, which is nothing one could ever achieve success with.  

 
Politician Spock said:
Well that is the dream we've been sold. Unfortunately in the real world, success is limited to those who have something to offer that is exceptional, and as such the market price for what they have to offer is an exceptional price. The rest are just commodities, and get the market price for commodities, which is nothing one could ever achieve success with.  
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80% of success is just showing up.

 
The minimum wage is where it is because low-skilled labor just isn't worth that much.  You can set a higher wage but that money has to come from somewhere.  Usually it's higher prices, but sometimes it's as simple as firing people and demanding more production out of those who remain, or better yet, just shutting your doors entirely.  Then there's the unintended consequences like entry-level kids/immigrants being rendered unemployable.  

The key to freeing people from wage slavery is ending the government's monopoly on the currency, and its endless war/graft debt-spending cycle.  This has fleeced untold trillions from working people over the years.  It's no accident that the minimum wage was the highest- adjusted for inflation- right before the government abandoned the gold standard for fiat.  

No leftwinged political platform I've seen does anything to confront this financial system.  I've never understood why collectivists have such an aversion to talking about this cruel, endless enslavement of the poor.  

 
A guy willing to work full time 40 hours and then pick up a part time job would clear $3000 per month.  In some towns, rent is $300/month.  That's a helluva lot of party money.

 
eoMMan said:
But you act like we never were there.  I think most of us (and honestly, most successful people) started with low paying jobs.  Whether it was during high school, during college, whatever....

If minimum wage isn't enough money for you, guess what?  There's a lot of ways in this great country to increase that.
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What if everybody that had a minimum wage job actually did that?

 
eoMMan said:
No matter how hard they try?  No matter how hard they work?

Uhhh...sorry, but this is just wrong.  I'm definitely not arguing that it isn't easier for some people but show me someone who is willing to put in 60 hour work weeks, someone who iis willing to learn to new things, willing to not go buy the latest iPhone, willing to not lease a new car, willing to not have 8 kids, etc. etc. etc. and I will show you someone who will be successful one day.
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Kudos.  This is one of the worst posts I've read on this board in a long time.  

 
Riversco said:
A guy willing to work full time 40 hours and then pick up a part time job would clear $3000 per month.  In some towns, rent is $300/month.  That's a helluva lot of party money.
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Not after you pay for childcare, food, gas, car payment, taxes, clothes, savings, and other #### generally known as life. 

Like I said, amazing the pretezel you guys will twist yourselves into to paint minimum wage lifestyles as something to envy.  

 
tommyGunZ said:
Not after you pay for childcare, food, gas, car payment, taxes, clothes, savings, and other #### generally known as life. 

Like I said, amazing the pretezel you guys will twist yourselves into to paint minimum wage lifestyles as something to envy.  
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Childcare is a you decision, not a we decision.

pay for your own mistakes/decisions 

 
Riversco said:
A guy willing to work full time 40 hours and then pick up a part time job would clear $3000 per month.  In some towns, rent is $300/month.  That's a helluva lot of party money.
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At minimum wage that part time job would have to be  55 hours per week, for a total of 95 hours per week to earn $3000 per month. 

 
TripItUp said:
tommyGunZ said:
Not after you pay for childcare, food, gas, car payment, taxes, clothes, savings, and other #### generally known as life. 

Like I said, amazing the pretezel you guys will twist yourselves into to paint minimum wage lifestyles as something to envy.  
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Childcare is a you decision, not a we decision.

pay for your own mistakes/decisions 
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You completely ignored the bolded. How convenient. 

 
who the #### wants to work 60 hours a week? If that is the threshold of surviving, then sign me the #### off that train

 
eoMMan said:
But you act like we never were there.  I think most of us (and honestly, most successful people) started with low paying jobs.  Whether it was during high school, during college, whatever....

If minimum wage isn't enough money for you, guess what?  There's a lot of ways in this great country to increase that.
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I swept out garages for soda money when I was 11.  Been working ever since and carved out a nice living for myself.  But it's been a long road.  I've cleaned out the fry machine at McD's, slung a hot tar mop on Chicago rooftops,been a dock worker in New Orleans ...but instead of whining and moping and hoping the government would legislate a higher wage for me I applied for other jobs that paid more.  Now?  I'd say I'm probably the best in the world at my profession within the financial services industry.  I didn't get here by luck.  I got here because I've strived to be the best at whatever job I've had.  

Long story short, I have little patience for people that ##### and moan about their station in life instead of making moves and hustling to better their position.  I'll go toe to toe with anyone on who grew up in the poorest household.  Nothing's been "given" to me in this life.  Every step forward has been contested and every bit of growth has been earned.  If I can do it, anyone can do it.

 
Statorama said:
I swept out garages for soda money when I was 11.  Been working ever since and carved out a nice living for myself.  But it's been a long road.  I've cleaned out the fry machine at McD's, slung a hot tar mop on Chicago rooftops,been a dock worker in New Orleans ...but instead of whining and moping and hoping the government would legislate a higher wage for me I applied for other jobs that paid more.  Now?  I'd say I'm probably the best in the world at my profession within the financial services industry.  I didn't get here by luck.  I got here because I've strived to be the best at whatever job I've had.  

Long story short, I have little patience for people that ##### and moan about their station in life instead of making moves and hustling to better their position.  I'll go toe to toe with anyone on who grew up in the poorest household.  Nothing's been "given" to me in this life.  Every step forward has been contested and every bit of growth has been earned.  If I can do it, anyone can do it.
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Yeah!  Buncha crybabies out there!

 
the moops said:
who the #### wants to work 60 hours a week? If that is the threshold of surviving, then sign me the #### off that train
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I didn't read anyone say that working 60 hours a week would be permanent. 

Surely, you could work these extra hours until you improve your situation, right?

 
Statorama said:
I swept out garages for soda money when I was 11.  Been working ever since and carved out a nice living for myself.  But it's been a long road.  I've cleaned out the fry machine at McD's, slung a hot tar mop on Chicago rooftops,been a dock worker in New Orleans ...but instead of whining and moping and hoping the government would legislate a higher wage for me I applied for other jobs that paid more.  Now?  I'd say I'm probably the best in the world at my profession within the financial services industry.  I didn't get here by luck.  I got here because I've strived to be the best at whatever job I've had.

Long story short, I have little patience for people that ##### and moan about their station in life instead of making moves and hustling to better their position.  I'll go toe to toe with anyone on who grew up in the poorest household.  Nothing's been "given" to me in this life.  Every step forward has been contested and every bit of growth has been earned.  If I can do it, anyone can do it.
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The bolded is patently false. There are a lot of people in low paying jobs that can't do any better.

Not to mention the fact that we actually need people in those low paying jobs.

 
renesauz said:
The bolded is patently false. There are a lot of people in low paying jobs that can't do any better.

Not to mention the fact that we actually need people in those low paying jobs.
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That's a very pessimistic point of view.  If people apply themselves they have a tremendous opportunity to improve their station.  

Do we need people in those jobs?  Sure, but only as a launching point for better things.

 
TripItUp said:
Well, Don't these people pay minimal taxes?  Can't remember what the statistic is about the percentage of Americans that actually pay federal taxes. 
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There are a ton of other taxes other than federal. 

 
eoMMan said:
I didn't read anyone say that working 60 hours a week would be permanent. 

Surely, you could work these extra hours until you improve your situation, right?
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In theory, sure. In reality, for some it never improves. Those who improve their situation have something exceptional to offer that the market price for returns an income that improves their situation. But for many it doesn't matter how many hours a week you work, because when you are just a commodity you get paid a commodity rate. Even at 70 hours per week, that's only $500 per week. Who the hell can improve their situation by bringing in only $500 a week?

 
Statorama said:
That's a very pessimistic point of view.  If people apply themselves they have a tremendous opportunity to improve their station.  

Do we need people in those jobs?  Sure, but only as a launching point for better things.
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This would be great if this was the case. In reality however, those jobs are careers for many. 

 
Warrior said:
Such stupidity. Say goodbye to all those lower level jobs. Machines will be making our food within 2 years after this nonsense happens...so hopefully it won't.
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It'll happen anyway.  I want the min wage raised but I'd also like to see more being done around educating the people in these low-level positions that are being automated.  At an affordable cost.

 
Homer J Simpson said:
The point is, the work is still needed no matter how much bull#### bootstrap rhetoric you guys throw out.  Pay the people that do it a decent wage.
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Unfortunately, here is where you're completely wrong.  Given the motive these low/no skilled jobs will be automated.  There is a whole other big thread about this, but many types of jobs are going to get much rarer in the near-mid term.

-fish- said:
I would love to not have to work 60 hours a week.
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AAABatteries said:
It'll happen anyway.  I want the min wage raised but I'd also like to see more being done around educating the people in these low-level positions that are being automated.  At an affordable cost.
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Unfortunately we already spend a #### ton on education.  Throwing money at it will make education unions ecstatic, but is very unlikely to have a demonstrable effect on the working poor.

 
Sand said:
Unfortunately we already spend a #### ton on education.  Throwing money at it will make education unions ecstatic, but is very unlikely to have a demonstrable effect on the working poor.
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I know - I want to spend more.

The people pushing for people working harder know (or should know) that it's very unlikely to work for a lot of people but they keep pushing that solution

 
This kind of draws the line between liberal thinkers and conservative thinkers.

Liberals say "please government, help us get more money from our employers"

Conservatives say "please employers, tell us what we can do to make more money"

 
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