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Dez Bryant - possible bulging or herniated disc, Ouch! (1 Viewer)

KellysHeroes

Footballguy
FoxSportsSouthwest.com reports that sources "close to the Cowboys" fear Dez Bryant's back issue could be a bulging or herniated disc.
Per the sources, the "measures being taken to treat the ailment go far beyond" precautionary. The Cowboys have been presenting Bryant's injury as routine soreness or spasms. All signs — including Bryant's word — point toward him playing against the Saints, but there's a chance he'll be doing so at significantly less than 100 percent. Bryant's status will be updated on Friday.
 
Long term if Gronk is any indicator I would think this can be correctable surgically. Short term this could be quite problematic for him.

 
If it's a herniated disc, it won't go away with injections. It will require surgery at some point if he wants to continue to play football. Those guys are so big and strong that I'm sure his core is strong. Depending on the severity, he's risking causing further damage, though.

 
Treatment is usually rest, heat/cold, things like that. Manageable for now, workable on the off-season. Really does not change my view of him for the rest of the season at all. I mean, it is true that something could flare up during a game but that could happen to any player during a game.

 
If it's a herniated disc, it won't go away with injections. It will require surgery at some point if he wants to continue to play football. Those guys are so big and strong that I'm sure his core is strong. Depending on the severity, he's risking causing further damage, though.
People often say herniated and bulging as interchangeable but they are different. Just FYI..I have no clue what is actually going on with him.

 
If it's a herniated disc, it won't go away with injections. It will require surgery at some point if he wants to continue to play football. Those guys are so big and strong that I'm sure his core is strong. Depending on the severity, he's risking causing further damage, though.
The majority of herniated discs actually correct themselves - Injections are often given to buy time... For the discs that don't correct themselves, usually a microdiscectomy is recommended - this surgery supposedly has a success rate of between 90-95%.

Regardless, if it is a herniated disc, injections will get him through the year and a decision will most likely be made once the season is over.

 
If it's a herniated disc, it won't go away with injections. It will require surgery at some point if he wants to continue to play football. Those guys are so big and strong that I'm sure his core is strong. Depending on the severity, he's risking causing further damage, though.
People often say herniated and bulging as interchangeable but they are different. Just FYI..I have no clue what is actually going on with him.
I work in the field. There is a big difference. For Dez's sake, let's hope it's bulging and not herniated.
 
If it's a herniated disc, it won't go away with injections. It will require surgery at some point if he wants to continue to play football. Those guys are so big and strong that I'm sure his core is strong. Depending on the severity, he's risking causing further damage, though.
The majority of herniated discs actually correct themselves - Injections are often given to buy time... For the discs that don't correct themselves, usually a microdiscectomy is recommended - this surgery supposedly has a success rate of between 90-95%.

Regardless, if it is a herniated disc, injections will get him through the year and a decision will most likely be made once the season is over.
Microdicsectomy huh? Sounds promising. I have 2 herniated discs and one is torn. Been living with it for 20 years like that. Didn't know about the surgery success rate being 90% plus. My back surgeon said it was more like 25%. And once you do have back surgery, chances are almost 100 percent you need follow up surgeries including the possibility of spine fusion. But I'm not a world class beast of an athelete like Dez Bryant. I'm sure the percentages are much better for a young guy. But it's the reason I've put off surgery.

On a side note, I could not see this coming. But so glad I just traded Dez Bryant from my fantasy team.

 
If it's a herniated disc, it won't go away with injections. It will require surgery at some point if he wants to continue to play football. Those guys are so big and strong that I'm sure his core is strong. Depending on the severity, he's risking causing further damage, though.
The majority of herniated discs actually correct themselves - Injections are often given to buy time... For the discs that don't correct themselves, usually a microdiscectomy is recommended - this surgery supposedly has a success rate of between 90-95%.Regardless, if it is a herniated disc, injections will get him through the year and a decision will most likely be made once the season is over.
Not being jerk, but what do you mean by "correct themselves"? Disc fluid drying up? It could end up being very unstable as well.
 
If it's a herniated disc, it won't go away with injections. It will require surgery at some point if he wants to continue to play football. Those guys are so big and strong that I'm sure his core is strong. Depending on the severity, he's risking causing further damage, though.
The majority of herniated discs actually correct themselves - Injections are often given to buy time... For the discs that don't correct themselves, usually a microdiscectomy is recommended - this surgery supposedly has a success rate of between 90-95%.Regardless, if it is a herniated disc, injections will get him through the year and a decision will most likely be made once the season is over.
Not being jerk, but what do you mean by "correct themselves"? Disc fluid drying up? It could end up being very unstable as well.
The symptoms alleviate themselves... Only a small percentage of people will actually need surgery due to a herniated disc.

 
If it's a herniated disc, it won't go away with injections. It will require surgery at some point if he wants to continue to play football. Those guys are so big and strong that I'm sure his core is strong. Depending on the severity, he's risking causing further damage, though.
The majority of herniated discs actually correct themselves - Injections are often given to buy time... For the discs that don't correct themselves, usually a microdiscectomy is recommended - this surgery supposedly has a success rate of between 90-95%.Regardless, if it is a herniated disc, injections will get him through the year and a decision will most likely be made once the season is over.
Not being jerk, but what do you mean by "correct themselves"? Disc fluid drying up? It could end up being very unstable as well.
The symptoms alleviate themselves... Only a small percentage of people will actually need surgery due to a herniated disc.
And even smaller percentage are high functioning professional football players who take a pounding every week

 
If it's a herniated disc, it won't go away with injections. It will require surgery at some point if he wants to continue to play football. Those guys are so big and strong that I'm sure his core is strong. Depending on the severity, he's risking causing further damage, though.
The majority of herniated discs actually correct themselves - Injections are often given to buy time... For the discs that don't correct themselves, usually a microdiscectomy is recommended - this surgery supposedly has a success rate of between 90-95%.

Regardless, if it is a herniated disc, injections will get him through the year and a decision will most likely be made once the season is over.
Microdicsectomy huh? Sounds promising. I have 2 herniated discs and one is torn. Been living with it for 20 years like that. Didn't know about the surgery success rate being 90% plus. My back surgeon said it was more like 25%. And once you do have back surgery, chances are almost 100 percent you need follow up surgeries including the possibility of spine fusion. But I'm not a world class beast of an athelete like Dez Bryant. I'm sure the percentages are much better for a young guy. But it's the reason I've put off surgery.

On a side note, I could not see this coming. But so glad I just traded Dez Bryant from my fantasy team.
A microdiscectomy has a 90% success rate for complaints that stem specifically from a herniation impinging on nerve roots. If there are other issues (i.e. degeneration in the discs), then the symptoms may be from other factors beyond the herniated disc.

Roughly 10% of people who have a microdiscectomy will experience the disc herniating again.

 
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If it's a herniated disc, it won't go away with injections. It will require surgery at some point if he wants to continue to play football. Those guys are so big and strong that I'm sure his core is strong. Depending on the severity, he's risking causing further damage, though.
The majority of herniated discs actually correct themselves - Injections are often given to buy time... For the discs that don't correct themselves, usually a microdiscectomy is recommended - this surgery supposedly has a success rate of between 90-95%.Regardless, if it is a herniated disc, injections will get him through the year and a decision will most likely be made once the season is over.
Not being jerk, but what do you mean by "correct themselves"? Disc fluid drying up? It could end up being very unstable as well.
The symptoms alleviate themselves... Only a small percentage of people will actually need surgery due to a herniated disc.
I agree, it's a pain tolerance issue for now. Accupuncture, chiropractor therapy, yoga, and daily Glucosamine Chondroitin serum (nasty stuff) all help alleviate the pain. But Dez will be feeling this once he gets older, and type of punishment he takes to make the tough catches in traffic are going to make he regret he ever played.

 
If it's a herniated disc, it won't go away with injections. It will require surgery at some point if he wants to continue to play football. Those guys are so big and strong that I'm sure his core is strong. Depending on the severity, he's risking causing further damage, though.
The majority of herniated discs actually correct themselves - Injections are often given to buy time... For the discs that don't correct themselves, usually a microdiscectomy is recommended - this surgery supposedly has a success rate of between 90-95%.Regardless, if it is a herniated disc, injections will get him through the year and a decision will most likely be made once the season is over.
Not being jerk, but what do you mean by "correct themselves"? Disc fluid drying up? It could end up being very unstable as well.
The symptoms alleviate themselves... Only a small percentage of people will actually need surgery due to a herniated disc.
I haven't worked directly with NFL athletes but I think it goes a little deeper than correcting itself. If you're comparing surgical to nonsurgical candidates, I agree with you. More athletes opt to not have surgery than those who do, for good reason. I'm not sure how much research has been done on high level athletes, especially NFL players, but it's something that will be more likely to continue giving him problems than not. There's no way of knowing if it will affect his performance from here on out or not, but I would be a little worried. These guys are amazing athletes, though. There's no telling.
 
the million dollar question is if he can't play, who do Dez owners grab (assuming Williams is already rostered, as he should be)? Last I read Austin is still frageelay.

Is it Dwayne Harris or Cole Beasley? Beasley caught 6/9 for 68 yards last week; Harris was 2/2 for 13 yds and a TD. I didn't see muc hof the game, so I don't know who actually played more snaps, though I'd assume it was Beasley based on the targets.

But can either of those guys actually step in and if Dez is out will they see an increase in targets or will they all simply go to Witten, Williams and Murray?

 
Hope he's alright and can hold off until the offseason for surgery.

I've already lost Julio and Foster. If Dez goes down so do my championship hopes. Fuuuuu.

 
You guys ever heard of Ozone therapy? It's what all superstar athletes use. I had two severely herniated discs in c6, c7. Same injury Peyton had; I got three ozone injections in the area, with vitamins and minerals, rested for one month, and was by God's grace back in the gym a month later. You guys should look up ozone therapy!

 
Hope he's alright and can hold off until the offseason for surgery.

I've already lost Julio and Foster. If Dez goes down so do my championship hopes. Fuuuuu.
I can't afford to lose him on one of the teams I have him. Already lost Cobb and Blackmon. So right there with you.

I know he had some back problems last year, does anyone remember how he played during that time?

 
"Jason Garrett: No need to worry about Dez Bryant
by Chris Cwik | CBSSports.com


(11:26 am ET) Cowboys head coach Jason Garrett said there's no reason for a long-term concern with Dez Bryant's back injury.

Bryant is expected to practice Friday, and should play Week 10. There have been reports that the injury is more serious than initially thought. Bryant may be dealing with a herniated disc in his back. Garrett seemed to downplay those issues, saying there's no need to worry about Bryant's outlook long-term."

 
Dez Bryant - possible bulging or herniated disc, Ouch!



Trust me, "ouch" doesn't begin to cover it. If he's got a herniated disc it must not be a very bad case if he's going to play through it. I had two myself and at their worst, I couldn't get out of bed for almost two days.

 
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Bryant reportedly is "looking pretty good." FOX Sports Southwest reported late Thursday night that the Cowboys fear Bryant's back issue could be a bulging or herniated disc. Whatever the issue is, it doesn't appear to be bothering Bryant. He's still safe to plug into fantasy lineups as a WR1.

 
"Dez Bryant (back) is practicing Friday.

Bryant reportedly is "looking pretty good."
FOX Sports Southwest reported late Thursday night that the Cowboys fear Bryant's back issue could be a bulging or herniated disc. Whatever the issue is, it doesn't appear to be bothering Bryant. He's still safe to plug into fantasy lineups as a WR1."
 
Hopefullly he goes the hollistic route first and foremost. Acupunture, And a superb Chiropracter can help manage this really well vs going under the knife so quickly.

He is so young.....back surgery should always be the absolute last resort. There are no guarantees surgery will fix the problem.

Meantime.....SMFH.

The season just keeps getting worse with injuries!!! Please FF gods......have some mercy.

 
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I doubt its a herniated disc, he would barely be able to play none the less practice if so
I have been living and playing sports actviely with an L-5 herniation.

Of course....not playing NFL football.

But putting plenty of stress on my back playing Mens over 30 hardball, Golf once a week and coaching my son's baseball team year round. So I am a very active 43 year old.

I have had this herniated disc in my lower back since 28 years old. I found out after a rear end collision and an MRI. It did not result from the accident but from years of abuse playing high school and college baseball (yes...I played in college too). It is just part of getting old and most athletes deal with back issues weekly...you just don't hear a lot about it. Heck Lebron was battling back spasms last night. Wade has fought through it as well.

You can play through this with proper treatment and proper management and strength and stretching exercises.

However when you get a flair up...yes it can be unbearable. So I am assuming Dez is having a flair up.....if it is severe they will probably give him an epidural injection to bring down the inflamation around the siatic nerve.

If that, ice and treatment don't work...of course the good old western medicine solution will be proposed to remove the disc entirely. No guarantee of permanent relief and in some cases...it can make it even worse. he can also try spinal decompression if it is a severly herniated disc.

Once I got my diagnosis at age 28 I upped my physical fitness, went and continue to see an outstanding Chiropracter once a month for maintence and make sure I keep my weight right.

Dez is a world class athlete....he should be fine with proper treatment.

Gronk is a huge man carrying far more weight and bulk.....and he must have had a serious degenertive disc disease. It is so case by case.

I still get flair ups.....and they suck...no matter what you do you learn to manage and live with it. I will hopefully never...ever go under the knife for it. I have slowed down in regards to lifitng heavy weights, and just well.....getting old sucks!

It's true!

 
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Hopefullly he goes the hollistic route first and foremost. Acupunture, And a superb Chiropracter can help manage this really well vs going under the knife so quickly.

He is so young.....back surgery should always be the absolute last resort. There are no guarantees surgery will fix the problem.

Meantime.....SMFH.

The season just keeps getting worse with injuries!!! Please FF gods......have some mercy.
Don't need a chiropractor cracking your back with a herniated disc.
 
I think what this thread is proving is that none of us have any real idea what the immediate and mid term ramifications will be for Dez.

Going by the varying travails on here of those that suffer from this injury, you can clearly see each case is unique and dependant on many many factors.

 
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Could be a nice buy low(er) opportunity if you have WR depth, or in a start 2 WR league where you can find a decent replacement if he gets hurt. Someone might be wary of him now.

 
As someone who works in the field, and reads the research, let me say, a microdiscectomy does not have a 90% success rate...

Googling microdiscectomy success rate, and going to spine health.com is not peer reviewed, randomized controlled study proven research. Fantasy curse may be successful in the business world, but leave the medical world to those who actually work in it

Some abstracts at that show success is actually 75-80%, which, to put that into lay mans terms, is actually pretty good. Success of 70% in the medical world is pretty great.

http://thejns.org/doi/abs/10.3171/spi.2002.96.1.0034

http://thejns.org/doi/abs/10.3171/spi.2005.2.3.0271

As someone who works in the field and that includes people with these types of issues, I can't begin to tell you how many people have to go back for re-dos or eventually have a lumbar or cervical fusion.

I obviously don't know what Bryant's case is, and all cases are different, but to claim he will be just fine with a discectomy is a drastic over statement.

Injections could help him through the rest of this season, and he likely will first attempt at a discectomy, but don't be surprised if he needs a second, or even a fusion.

I believe Brian Urlacher had a similar issue a few years ago. Had a discectomy and eventually had to have his back fused. I could be wrong, but I distinctly remember that and remember thinking, wow his career could be cut short because of his back.

I think Bryant is fine for the rest of this season, especially since reports say he is doing well, but keep an eye on him this offseason in how he gets this taken care of and how he responds

 
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My wife had herniated discs. She had surgery and is just fine. She was out of commission for only a month or so. I have a slipped disc that needs fusion. Doctor said it requires surgery to prevent it from getting worse but is a matter of pain tolerance for the time being. I've had the injections and for me (varies from person to person), they only worked for a couple of weeks. I can still be active. Doctor told me no squats or dead lifts. So instead I do core exercises. I could probably play football, but would be pretty sore the next day. I'm in decent shape, but not Dez Bryant shape. I assume he'll be fine if he has a decent pain tolerance.

 
My wife had herniated discs. She had surgery and is just fine. She was out of commission for only a month or so. I have a slipped disc that needs fusion. Doctor said it requires surgery to prevent it from getting worse but is a matter of pain tolerance for the time being. I've had the injections and for me (varies from person to person), they only worked for a couple of weeks. I can still be active. Doctor told me no squats or dead lifts. So instead I do core exercises. I could probably play football, but would be pretty sore the next day. I'm in decent shape, but not Dez Bryant shape. I assume he'll be fine if he has a decent pain tolerance.
A month is pretty good. Congrats to her. She had great success with the procedure.

I would offer you advice: wait as long as you can for a fusion. Getting them too young often results in needing more. You end up wearing out the discs above and below the segment that is fused, which results in needing further fusions. I tell patients this: would you rather be in pain and move (no fusion) or be in pain and not move (fusion). Studies show the long term outlook (1 year plus) are pretty similar in terms of pain and function for those who take the surgical route vs those who go conservative (physical therapy).

You MRI 10 random peoples spines and I would promise you more than half would have some kind of a disc herniation. But they don't have pain, why? Good question. I could go on forever with the answer. If you care to discuss I would be happy to, just not here to hijack the thread. It's actually fairly easy to take pain away without solving the issue. For example: you bump your head on a cupboard. Rub it right away and your pain goes away. Put ice on a sprained ankle or heat a sore back and it feels better, why? Heat/cold don't go past the skin. If it did we would be losing body heat all the time. What all of those things do are activate nerves that are faster to the brain than pain nerves. Your brain can only take one message at a time from these groups of nerves, so your brain doesn't get the message from your pain nerves because they are smaller/slower than heat and touch nerves, thus no pain.

For you google nuts it's called the gate control theory

 
I doubt its a herniated disc, he would barely be able to play none the less practice if so
I have been living and playing sports actviely with an L-5 herniation.

Of course....not playing NFL football.

But putting plenty of stress on my back playing Mens over 30 hardball, Golf once a week and coaching my son's baseball team year round. So I am a very active 43 year old.

I have had this herniated disc in my lower back since 28 years old. I found out after a rear end collision and an MRI. It did not result from the accident but from years of abuse playing high school and college baseball (yes...I played in college too). It is just part of getting old and most athletes deal with back issues weekly...you just don't hear a lot about it. Heck Lebron was battling back spasms last night. Wade has fought through it as well.

You can play through this with proper treatment and proper management and strength and stretching exercises.

However when you get a flair up...yes it can be unbearable. So I am assuming Dez is having a flair up.....if it is severe they will probably give him an epidural injection to bring down the inflamation around the siatic nerve.

If that, ice and treatment don't work...of course the good old western medicine solution will be proposed to remove the disc entirely. No guarantee of permanent relief and in some cases...it can make it even worse. he can also try spinal decompression if it is a severly herniated disc.

Once I got my diagnosis at age 28 I upped my physical fitness, went and continue to see an outstanding Chiropracter once a month for maintence and make sure I keep my weight right.

Dez is a world class athlete....he should be fine with proper treatment.

Gronk is a huge man carrying far more weight and bulk.....and he must have had a serious degenertive disc disease. It is so case by case.

I still get flair ups.....and they suck...no matter what you do you learn to manage and live with it. I will hopefully never...ever go under the knife for it. I have slowed down in regards to lifitng heavy weights, and just well.....getting old sucks!

It's true!
We're in the same boat except you're in shape and I'm not lol

Mine were L4 and L5, and spinal decompression - on a DRX9000 machine - is what cleared it up enough for regular chiropractic adjustments to start working. And you're right, for a lot of men with lower back herniations, weight management is crucial to avoid flare-ups... especially if you tend to carry your extra weight in your gut the way I do/did. Beer Belly is the worst when it comes to lower back herniations :(

 
I doubt its a herniated disc, he would barely be able to play none the less practice if so
I have been living and playing sports actviely with an L-5 herniation.Of course....not playing NFL football.

But putting plenty of stress on my back playing Mens over 30 hardball, Golf once a week and coaching my son's baseball team year round. So I am a very active 43 year old.

I have had this herniated disc in my lower back since 28 years old. I found out after a rear end collision and an MRI. It did not result from the accident but from years of abuse playing high school and college baseball (yes...I played in college too). It is just part of getting old and most athletes deal with back issues weekly...you just don't hear a lot about it. Heck Lebron was battling back spasms last night. Wade has fought through it as well.

You can play through this with proper treatment and proper management and strength and stretching exercises.

However when you get a flair up...yes it can be unbearable. So I am assuming Dez is having a flair up.....if it is severe they will probably give him an epidural injection to bring down the inflamation around the siatic nerve.

If that, ice and treatment don't work...of course the good old western medicine solution will be proposed to remove the disc entirely. No guarantee of permanent relief and in some cases...it can make it even worse. he can also try spinal decompression if it is a severly herniated disc.

Once I got my diagnosis at age 28 I upped my physical fitness, went and continue to see an outstanding Chiropracter once a month for maintence and make sure I keep my weight right.

Dez is a world class athlete....he should be fine with proper treatment.

Gronk is a huge man carrying far more weight and bulk.....and he must have had a serious degenertive disc disease. It is so case by case.

I still get flair ups.....and they suck...no matter what you do you learn to manage and live with it. I will hopefully never...ever go under the knife for it. I have slowed down in regards to lifitng heavy weights, and just well.....getting old sucks!

It's true!
We're in the same boat except you're in shape and I'm not lol

Mine were L4 and L5, and spinal decompression - on a DRX9000 machine - is what cleared it up enough for regular chiropractic adjustments to start working. And you're right, for a lot of men with lower back herniations, weight management is crucial to avoid flare-ups... especially if you tend to carry your extra weight in your gut the way I do/did. Beer Belly is the worst when it comes to lower back herniations :(
Chiroquackers are awful. You know their curriculum has more classes in marketing than they do in actual science? That's because Chiroquackery is not backed by science. It's actually an old religion. Scary.

Www.Neck911.com

 
I think what this thread is proving is that none of us have any real idea what the immediate and mid term ramifications will be for Dez.

Going by the varying travails on here of those that suffer from this injury, you can clearly see each case is unique and dependant on many many factors.
You could say that about a lot if NFL injuries. Due to the lack access to their records, we're making educated guesses.
 
I doubt its a herniated disc, he would barely be able to play none the less practice if so
I have been living and playing sports actviely with an L-5 herniation.Of course....not playing NFL football.

But putting plenty of stress on my back playing Mens over 30 hardball, Golf once a week and coaching my son's baseball team year round. So I am a very active 43 year old.

I have had this herniated disc in my lower back since 28 years old. I found out after a rear end collision and an MRI. It did not result from the accident but from years of abuse playing high school and college baseball (yes...I played in college too). It is just part of getting old and most athletes deal with back issues weekly...you just don't hear a lot about it. Heck Lebron was battling back spasms last night. Wade has fought through it as well.

You can play through this with proper treatment and proper management and strength and stretching exercises.

However when you get a flair up...yes it can be unbearable. So I am assuming Dez is having a flair up.....if it is severe they will probably give him an epidural injection to bring down the inflamation around the siatic nerve.

If that, ice and treatment don't work...of course the good old western medicine solution will be proposed to remove the disc entirely. No guarantee of permanent relief and in some cases...it can make it even worse. he can also try spinal decompression if it is a severly herniated disc.

Once I got my diagnosis at age 28 I upped my physical fitness, went and continue to see an outstanding Chiropracter once a month for maintence and make sure I keep my weight right.

Dez is a world class athlete....he should be fine with proper treatment.

Gronk is a huge man carrying far more weight and bulk.....and he must have had a serious degenertive disc disease. It is so case by case.

I still get flair ups.....and they suck...no matter what you do you learn to manage and live with it. I will hopefully never...ever go under the knife for it. I have slowed down in regards to lifitng heavy weights, and just well.....getting old sucks!

It's true!
We're in the same boat except you're in shape and I'm not lol

Mine were L4 and L5, and spinal decompression - on a DRX9000 machine - is what cleared it up enough for regular chiropractic adjustments to start working. And you're right, for a lot of men with lower back herniations, weight management is crucial to avoid flare-ups... especially if you tend to carry your extra weight in your gut the way I do/did. Beer Belly is the worst when it comes to lower back herniations :(
Chiroquackers are awful. You know their curriculum has more classes in marketing than they do in actual science? That's because Chiroquackery is not backed by science. It's actually an old religion. Scary.

Www.Neck911.com
With all due respect, and as someone that is not a huge fan of chiropractic, there's been a lot of division between the 'traditional' medical fields and chiropractic. I know many for whom the treatment works, and works very well. It's an alternative. I know many who have been utterly failed by traditional medicine.

FWIW, valid as your opinion may be, calling it chiroquackery only feeds into the (perhaps true) sentiment that traditional medical professionals have an ax to grind with chiropractic methods, and to that end, other non "mainstream" western medical solutions.

ETA: I have had multiple recommendations by some of the better / best orthopedic practitioners in the NY / Long Island area for Chiropractic as an option. Didnt particularly work for me, but to just dismiss it in such a manner seems at the least disingenuous, a bit.

 
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