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Did the Giants strategically target/concuss (1 Viewer)

identikit

Footballguy
Posted this in the Kyle Williams thread, but thought it might end up buried there.

Interesting IMO....



Did Giants Strategically Concuss Kyle Williams?



By Benjamin Wallace-Wells







The Giants' win over the 49ers in a magnificent throwback conference championship game at Candlestick Park yesterday turned on two fumbles by 49ers punt returner Kyle Williams, an obscure second-year player. That made Kyle Williams personally responsible for ten points in a game that ended 20-17. And the Giants, interviewed in the happy haze of the winning locker room, casually noted a provocative element of their game plan: They'd targeted Williams for extra violence because they knew he had suffered several concussions in the past, and they think it worked.



After the game, reporters crowded around the locker of Jacquian Williams, who'd forced the second fumble, hoping for an angle: Had the Giants noticed something about Kyle Williams's technique, some weakness in the 49ers punt-return scheme? "Nah," Williams said. "The thing is, we knew he had four concussions, so that was our biggest thing, was to take him outta the game."



Devin Thomas, the reserve wide receiver who recovered both of Kyle Williams's fumbles, was even more explicit. "He's had a lot of concussions," Thomas told the Star-Ledger columnist Steve Politi. "We were just like, 'We gotta put a hit on that guy.' ... [Giants reserve safety Tyler] Sash did a great job hitting him early and he looked kind of dazed when he got up. I feel like that made a difference and he coughed it up."



It certainly sounds like the Giants' special teams players were told about Williams's history of concussions, and that they went after him because of it. (That this has so far drawn no attention from beat reporters suggests that such planning is commonplace). It's impossible to know whether Thomas is right — if Williams in fact was concussed or woozy during the game — but he didn't look himself yesterday: There was the third-quarter punt that skimmed off his knee after he seemed to dawdle, unsure whether to pick it up or let it roll, and at least two punts that he fair-caught though he had plenty of room to run. Sports Illustrated's Ann Killion also noticed "a fumble on a reverse that he fell on, a strange sideways diving catch on another punt that could have been disaster." Williams played virtually the whole game at wide receiver and didn't register a single catch.



Part of the seduction of the NFL post-season is the crucial contributions that often come from anonymous players at the back-end of a roster, the backups and special-teamers and would-be David Tyrees whose contributions can turn a merely good season into a potentially historic one, or (in Kyle Williams's case) vice versa. Peter King took this as his theme in his influential Sports Illustrated column this morning, making the case that the Patriots and Giants will play for the Super Bowl because their end-of-the-roster players outplayed their counterparts on the Ravens and the 49ers. But it's worth being clear about how brutal the contributions of those players often are, particularly in the pinballing, collision-physics world of special teams. In the context of the current, horrifying concussion epidemic, it's one thing to argue, as many of the NFL's defenders do, that violence is endemic to the game. But it is startling to realize that concussions aren't just an injury but a strategic vulnerability. In the league's detail-obsessed environment, where coaches seek to leverage the tiniest advantages, a history of concussions doesn't only make you a red flag on your team doctor's list. It also makes you, in opposing film rooms, a target.

http://nymag.com/dai...e-williams.html

 
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Would this really be a surprise to anyone? Its equivalent to Deangelo Hall and London Fletcher saying they'd hit the hell out of Romo when he had his lung thing, and many other such incidents.

You don't think defenders hit Jahvid Best a little harder, with his concussion history? You don't think RB's running at Bob Sanders lowered their shoulder and plowed forward with the intent to take him off the field, knowing how fragile he was? You honestly don't think a RB who has known turf-toe issues isn't getting their feet stepped on in the pile a little bit? A RB with an injured hand...you don't think defenders are aiming for that hand, especially if its holding the ball?

The questions aren't aimed at the OP, by the way. Just wrote it in question form for some reason.

 
second fumble was caused by the NYG player's hand punching the ball. in short, no.
I don't think the article is saying that specific play caused a concussion. More interesting is that a strategy like this may have been part of a gameplan, particularly with the NFL's new rules/added focus on concussions.
 
Whether true or not, it is idiotic for the Giants players to brag about interionally trying to concuss a 49er immediately after last night's game. Harbaugh has a long memory, and I would not be surprised to see the Giants have their "what's YOUR problem" moment after their next meeting.

And oh yeah the league theoretically regulates this kind of thing.

 
I could be mistaken, but didn't someone on the 49ers defense brag about hitting hard and be rather unremorseful about knocking opponents out of the game?

 
I know it's a tough sport/man's game/blah blah blah. I'm not saying I'm surprised or it's not sound strategy from a football-only standpoint.

But with all the talk about concussions and the long-term damage it does to someone's life, it makes me uncomfortable to hear players and teams target someone with a concussion history to give them another one and take them out of the game. I mean, you could be literally shaving years off someone's life. A guy with a concussion history always has a target on his skull I guess. But knowing we could be talking about the extra, targeted hit that caused dementia or a lack of motor skills makes this part of the game I don't really like.

That being said, I think Williams was thinking about redemption and a huge return to give his team great field position...and he didn't secure the ball. The hit that knocked it out was pretty tame. His good return following the first turnover showed he could do the job. I think he set his sights on something big and something terrible happened. Nothing to do with concussions there.

 
Whether true or not, it is idiotic for the Giants players to brag about interionally trying to concuss a 49er immediately after last night's game. Harbaugh has a long memory, and I would not be surprised to see the Giants have their "what's YOUR problem" moment after their next meeting.And oh yeah the league theoretically regulates this kind of thing.
Similar to Harbaugh's handshake: that's totally on the Giants. They tackled too hard. They really went in and, it was strong, kind of like a hard-hitting tackle. Seriously, let this be a quick lesson to the 49ers, it's not only part of the game they play, but it is part of the game that THEY want to play. Harbaugh himself allegedly pumps his guys telling them to "injure" the opponent. Well, they came and got some from the G-men. It can hurt when it comes back around.
 
Whether true or not, it is idiotic for the Giants players to brag about interionally trying to concuss a 49er immediately after last night's game. Harbaugh has a long memory, and I would not be surprised to see the Giants have their "what's YOUR problem" moment after their next meeting.And oh yeah the league theoretically regulates this kind of thing.
Similar to Harbaugh's handshake: that's totally on the Giants. They tackled too hard. They really went in and, it was strong, kind of like a hard-hitting tackle. Seriously, let this be a quick lesson to the 49ers, it's not only part of the game they play, but it is part of the game that THEY want to play. Harbaugh himself allegedly pumps his guys telling them to "injure" the opponent. Well, they came and got some from the G-men. It can hurt when it comes back around.
I haven't seen Harbaugh brag to the press about encouraging the niners D to intentionally concuss other players, but I agree that would be idiotic - and probably result in a suspension - if he did.Did he, or are you just trolling? Link, please.
 
That being said, I think Williams was thinking about redemption and a huge return to give his team great field position...and he didn't secure the ball. The hit that knocked it out was pretty tame. His good return following the first turnover showed he could do the job. I think he set his sights on something big and something terrible happened. Nothing to do with concussions there.
Yeah, I don't see how targeted head shots had anything to do with the last OT fumble. Or the first 4th Q fumble, for that matter. The first one reminded me of a 4-year-old kid that spills his milk and says with an innocent face, "I didn't do it!" rather than wipe it up. :)Still, like I said, a pretty stupid thing to put out there in the press. It's a short, fickle-media-paved road from Superbowl darlings, to heavily-fined bad boys, as some Steelers players can attest to. They're pretty lucky this hasn't caught on in the national media.
 
did they even hit him hard during the game?

Regardless though, is it worse than slapping the hand of a RB with a broken hand? Ya, I realize concussions are a serious injury issue but if he wasn't ok or was more susceptible to injury shouldn't the 49ers look to protect their player?

I just think it's funny in an ultra violent sport like football where guys will do almost anything to win that people are shocked and outraged to hear that guys would target guys with injuries. Is it nice? of course not but it's a brutal game.

 
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did they even hit him hard during the game? Regardless though, is it worse than slapping the hand of a RB with a broken hand? Ya, I realize concussions are a serious injury issue but if he wasn't ok or was more susceptible to injury shouldn't the 49ers look to protect their player?I just think it's funny in an ultra violent sport like football where guys will do almost anything to win that people are shocked and outraged to hear that guys would target guys with injuries. Is it nice? of course not but it's a brutal game.
:goodposting: what he said.
 
I don't think that it's bad for them to try and rattle or knock a player out of a game with a hard LEGAL hit. What I think is absolutely ######ed is to then discuss with the media that your intention was to injure a player. Absolutely nothing good can come out of saying that. Nothing.

Devin Thomas should be disciplined somehow by coughlin for saying that or at least have a talking to from coughlin to set him straight.

I'm a giants fan but I know an idiot when I see one or read one.

 
Harbaugh himself allegedly pumps his guys telling them to "injure" the opponent. Well, they came and got some from the G-men. It can hurt when it comes back around.
... and the Niners have to return to New Orleans in the 2012 regular season. That one's going to be ridiculously chippy with memories of the Pierre Thomas knockout lingering in the air.
 
Osi did hit Aaron Rodgers so hard in the ribs that the refs felt the blow went all the way to his head, so they threw the flag.

Guess they shouldn't coach players to tackle through an opponent.

 
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did they even hit him hard during the game? Regardless though, is it worse than slapping the hand of a RB with a broken hand? Ya, I realize concussions are a serious injury issue but if he wasn't ok or was more susceptible to injury shouldn't the 49ers look to protect their player?I just think it's funny in an ultra violent sport like football where guys will do almost anything to win that people are shocked and outraged to hear that guys would target guys with injuries. Is it nice? of course not but it's a brutal game.
Hint: concussions (and the resulting brain damage) are far more serious than broken hands.
Harbaugh himself allegedly pumps his guys telling them to "injure" the opponent. Well, they came and got some from the G-men. It can hurt when it comes back around.
... and the Niners have to return to New Orleans in the 2012 regular season. That one's going to be ridiculously chippy with memories of the Pierre Thomas knockout lingering in the air.
I don't recall the Niners coaching their players to knock Thomas out or celebrating the fact that he'd been knocked out (as opposed to normal celebration incident to a turnover). If they did, they should be called to task for it. Otherwise, I thought that was a pretty good, hard fought game and I don't remember any post-game quotes indicating any animosity between the teams.
 
NY Giants deny they tried to hurt concussion-plagued San Francisco 49ers return man Kyle Williams

The Giants knew that 49ers receiver Kyle Williams had a history of concussions and they wanted to make him uncomfortable and nervous on Sunday night. But that doesn't mean they were trying to hurt him or knock him out of the game.

That's what several players said on Tuesday, two days after the Giants beat the 49ers, 20-17, in the NFC Championship Game, largely because of Williams' two mistakes on punt returns. After the game, Giants receiver Devin Thomas, who recovered both punts, was quoted as saying, "He's had a lot of concussions. We were just like 'We've got to put a hit on that guy.'"

Even more damning, Giants linebacker Jacquian Williams, who caused the overtime fumble, was quoted as saying, "We knew he had four concussions, so our biggest thing was to take him out of the game."

Neither Thomas nor Williams was available to the media on Tuesday, but their teammates insisted they weren't trying to get Williams hurt.

"I don't think we've ever talked about knocking anybody out with concussions or anything like that," said Justin Tuck. "But it's not like we weren't trying to hit him. We were definitely trying to get a lot of hats on him because he might not have been as comfortable back there as say a Ted Ginn who had been there all year. But as far as trying to knock him out of the football game? No."

"We didn't talk about it," added linebacker Michael Boley. "Concussions are a big deal. Obviously we don't want to hurt anybody. We're a fraternity of brothers all across the league. We don't want to see anybody get hurt."

http://www.nydailyne...ticle-1.1011472

 
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Ironic given that Pierre Thomas missing most of the second-round game with a concussion may very well have been the difference.

 
'Luke Skywalker said:
Ironic given that Pierre Thomas missing most of the second-round game with a concussion may very well have been the difference.
As was his fumble off the concussion, a lost 3 points, leading to Sproles being pulled for Roby who didn't return kicks all year which led to Roby fumbling which led to 3 more points... a six point swing right there at least.
 
'Luke Skywalker said:
Ironic given that Pierre Thomas missing most of the second-round game with a concussion may very well have been the difference.
As was his fumble off the concussion, a lost 3 points, leading to Sproles being pulled for Roby who didn't return kicks all year which led to Roby fumbling which led to 3 more points... a six point swing right there at least.
:cry:
 
Was listening to John Madden this morning on local SF radio, and he was pretty disgusted with the idea of this. He said hard hits are what you want, but not to target someone in the hopes of geting another concussion.

 
Trying to hurt someone is really disgusting.
Have you ever played a full-contact sport at a high level?*Every* time you hit someone, you try to knock into last week or as least hit them so hard, they'll think twice about coming around you again.It might sound "disgusting" and what not, but that's just PR bull####. If you can take one of their key guys out of a game, then you do it. I'm not saying or advocating it should be done in a dirty fashion; you can lay the wood to somebody and still be perfectly legal, but if you know a guy has a weakness, you go after him. If he leaves or is thrown off his game, that's just one more of their guys you dont have to worry about.When I was injured, or coming back from one, I always protected myself a little bit more b/c I knew the goons were coming, whether I liked it or not.*shrug*
 
'hostile said:
Have you ever played a full-contact sport at a high level?*Every* time you hit someone, you try to knock into last week or as least hit them so hard, they'll think twice about coming around you again.It might sound "disgusting" and what not, but that's just PR bull####. If you can take one of their key guys out of a game, then you do it.
You're right, that sounds disgusting. Certainly lots of steroid-heads feel that way about it, but it's inhuman.
 
This whole story is being blown out of proportion and has people dwelling on semantics. A team saying they want to get a good hit on a guy because he's injury prone is not newsworthy. It's not dirty either. It's akin to players that are labelled as being soft. What do opposing players do to players who are soft? They play physical with them. Even though the Giants allude to the fact that Williams had previous concussions, it's never said that they plan on going headhunting on the guy. Even Jacquain Williams, who referenced "taking him out of the game" never specifically mentions that the Giants planned to go head hunting. A look at the tape of the game also backs this up. The Giants didn't have any questionable hits on Williams. Nothing dirty ensued. They surmised he might be a bit fragile and they wanted to test his toughness. End of story.

Now had they knocked the guy out of the game with a helmet to helmet hit I'd agree that this would be a big deal. But nothing happened here. Let's move on.

 
'hostile said:
Have you ever played a full-contact sport at a high level?*Every* time you hit someone, you try to knock into last week or as least hit them so hard, they'll think twice about coming around you again.It might sound "disgusting" and what not, but that's just PR bull####. If you can take one of their key guys out of a game, then you do it.
You're right, that sounds disgusting. Certainly lots of steroid-heads feel that way about it, but it's inhuman.
I find it laughable how people want bloodsport, but as soon as there is a whisper of "intent", they cry foul.Football is savage by nature, and its one of the things praised about the sport. So too is nearly every full-contact sport, and any time you hit someone, there is an implied intent to disrupt and/or injure. Hockey. MMA. Aussie rules. Rounders. Rugby. Lacrosse. Pick one.The Giants werent saying they were trying to end Williams' career, but they certainly were admitting that "Hey, this guy has had his head scrambled a lot recently, so let's go out there, drill him a couple of times, and see if we can get him to cough up the ball." Couple that with the news that Williams sustained a partially separated shoulder in that game, and I'd say it seemed to me it worked. *Any* team in any full-contact sport that is one game away from the championship would do the exact, same thing.If you guys dont like the reality of this, maybe you should follow tennis or soccer.
 
'Luke Skywalker said:
Ironic given that Pierre Thomas missing most of the second-round game with a concussion may very well have been the difference.
As was his fumble off the concussion, a lost 3 points, leading to Sproles being pulled for Roby who didn't return kicks all year which led to Roby fumbling which led to 3 more points... a six point swing right there at least.
as a fellow Saints fan...just let it go, man. you'll feel a lot better.
 

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