Jason Wood
Zoo York
Hijack aside, you gotta love "getting the gang back together", the Shark Board is starting to heat up!
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Dillon Traded! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gildawg
- Start date
ok, I see your point. I agree Martin doesn't have a lot of the other qualities that make Thurman stand out. There was a long period of time when Barry, Emmitt, and Thurman were easily the 3 best RBs in football.Martin doesn't quite have that. But, I think he has been an elite back for a long time, and his consistency and durability has been remarkable, especially for a guy who dropped in the draft because of injury concerns. His numbers will be overwhelming by the time his career is finished, and he's considered one of the classiest guys in the league so I'm sure there will be plenty of writers willing to put him in right away.I don't think his role in the Patriots and Jets turnaround is given enough press. Parcells was a huge factor, but Martin was the one guy that made it work in both places.DOH! Now I feel foolish, I had thought Thomas made it in last year.Regardless, I agree he will be a shoe in. But the comparison I was looking at was his overall numbers are very similar to Martin's overall numbers at first clance. And if that's what Martin will be judged by, then he will make it in.Thomas had so many _other_ things than total numbers going for him, as Aaron mentioned, his MVP, his 4 SBs, he was one of the RBs that turned that position into a receiving threat, which is often ignored, so in that respect he was game changing.My intention wasn't that Thomas doesn't belong, but that he doesn't belong ONLY due to his total career numbers, whereas all Martin has going for him IS his total career numbers.Interesting point on Thomas, in college he relegated Barry Sanders to bench duty
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Pick a synomnym for "not smart" and apply it to yourselves, all of you who read this post and let it slide.
Priest Holmes has a Super Bowl ring kids. And you call yourselves "Football Guys" and "Sharks". <scoff> If I were Jason, I'd delete this thread and deny its existance... Colin
Jason Wood
Zoo York
:JoeT: Obviously you're right, mea culpa. But admittedly Priest played a minimal role in that SB title, but nevertheless he has a ring. Whether he's given extra credit by the voters for his non actively acquired ring remains to be seen.Pick a synomnym for "not smart" and apply it to yourselves, all of you who read this post and let it slide.
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Gotta love the fact that 5 FBG Staff Members have chimed in on Page 6 of a "Dillon Traded" thread to debate Curtis Martin (with another FBG lurking).Martin may run up against some other RB up for consideration, as Faulk, Emmitt, George, Bettis, Dillon, and Holmes may all be in the mix scrapping for votes at or around the same time.AND PLEASE . . . Let's not debate all those guys in this thread, we can start another if we must.
Priest Holmes has a ring like Drew Bledsoe has a ring...not quite the same as the one Jamal Lewis and Tom Brady got.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
What are you, a mod?Martin: ProbablyFaulk: YesGeorge: ProbablyBettis: YesDillon: MaybeHolmes: MaybeColin
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
You got that right. Curtis' first year with the Jets was somewhat of a dissapointment. His 1999 season was absolutely phenomenal, given the situation of the team. After the All-Pro QB went down for the season, the AFC favorites sunk, and sunk fast. The team was just awful, putting Rick Mirer in at QB and falling to 1-6. Martin carried the ball 69 times the next two weeks, giving the Jets the only offense they had. Martin had a fantastic year given the circumstances on that team, and carried the team on his shoulders much of the way.As I said before, he never had a period of super-greatness. There's no TD like seasons for Curtis Martin. But he's passed just about everyone in his era, except Emmitt and Bettis. Who will BOTH be in the HOF as well.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
I'm not sure Dan Marino would agree....Colin
I'm just saying there are different levels of appreciation for the ring. I'm sure Marino and Kelly and Thurman would gladly take a ring no matter what their role was. But, I don't think that's quite the same as winning a ring for your team. I don't think being a backup on a SB winning team makes one player any more HOF worthy then one who had a legendary career but never sniffed success in the big game.Jamal Lewis was the horse on that SB Ravens team from everything I remember. Holmes has a ring, but whether he "won" a Super Bowl is debatable.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Exactly, and Colin realizes that he was just taking an opportunity to point out my error :cX:
. In all seriousness, I don't think Priest's ring as a Raven will help his case for the Hall, he could still use a ring with the Chiefs to make his case that much more realistic. I also would add that, while I've been a long time supporter of Priest, it's unfair and unrealistic to think he's got another three or four years at his current level of production.
Colin Dowling
Footballguy
Until he opened his big mouth last year, I had wondered whether or not Jose Canseco's TWO World Series rings would help him get in the Hall of Fame..[hijack continued]Colin
David Yudkin
Footballguy
Maybe the Pats can sign Marino to the league minimum and add him as a third string QB.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
First of all, there is only one MASTER of the ring, and he does not share power - there are actually MANY magic rings, and none should be taken lightly.And in answer:1) yes2) 42, but what is the question?
last year we debated Martin/Jordan over and over and over and we all seemed(well most of us) to point to this offseason seeming like the perfect time to move Martin. Big increase in salary, gotta know what Jordan's got before his contract runs out.Like most, I will never doubt Parcells inquiring about him and will always consider it a possibility. (to contradict myself)It's been talked of so much I almost think it'll never happen now. Although.....Hambrick did nothing to make Parcells feel comfy but a couple solid games. Furthermore, I think most folks would agree there's no way Parcells enters 2004 season with the RB spot being a weak spot on his team.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
This may have been posted, but I think those projections are low Jason for a couple of reasons.A) His Cincinnati YPC will most likely be lower than his NE YPC given the better offense...and there could be a huge variance, perhaps 1/2 yard.
B) The Pats history on rushing TDs is irrelevant, Dillon is the best back that will ever have played in this system with this personnel setup.
Dillon will equal value in 2004, mark my words.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Bingo Fred... I guess that's why we were picked for Survivor II...great minds think alike
Chase and Wood,Remind me when you post your rankings for the first time in 2004 so us at Survivor II can pick them apart and show you where you are wrong again. 
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LHUCKS welcome back, haven't seen you around the boards in awhile.I'm not sure what to think of Dillon at this point. Was 2003 the sign of an aging back who couldn't get healthy and/or was unwilling to play through injuries? I mean the guy had a miserable season while Rudi Johnson was tearing things up behind the same line with the same personnel. Anyone who took Dillon in the 2nd round last year likely had very little chance of salvaging their season after how poorly he played.However, his attitude seems to be pretty good right now and I like a lot of the things I've heard him saying. It also seems like the Patriots took their time in making this decision as they always do so they must feel like he's a great fit for what they want to do. I think if he's even 80-90% of what he used to be, he'll be a significant upgrade over Antowain Smith. That means he should get more YPC, slightly more receiving yards, and I also expect them to give him more carries than they gave Antowain. Based on all that, he could be a great value pick in the middle to late 2nd round if a lot of owners shy away because on his nightmare 2003 season. But, there will also likely be owners who take him too soon or value him too highly based on what he did in the prime of his career.It is hard to project huge numbers for him because the Pats haven't had a runner of his caliber since Curtis Martin left, and that was a long time ago with a totally different system in place. They've changed their system to fit their personnel - short possession passing game that emphasizes spreading defenses out and letting Brady find a target quickly. Their offensive line, especially without Woody, doesn't really seem ideally suited to be a great run blocking line. They are great at protecting Brady (0 sacks in the Super Bowl against the Panthers was unbelievable), but can they get a push off the line? Perhaps some of the weak Patriots rushing numbers over the past few years were due to the poor line and not just the lack of talent at the RB spot.The Patriots have a system in place that has been very successful and taken them to 2 out of 3 Super Bowls. Is it more likely that they'll stick with their system and try to fit Dillon into it? Or that they'll consider Dillon so important and valuable that they change their system to take better advantage of his skills/abilities? I tend to think Belicheck and Weis are "if it ain't broke don't fix it" types, but if that were completely true they probably wouldn't have made this move for Dillon.After all that, I'm still left with little idea of what they plan to do with their offense and how they're going to use Dillon. So, I'm waiting on some more info before I start making any serious projections for Dillon in 2004. I'm not quite ready to write off 2003 as a complete aberration though, as I think there were some warning signs that became apparent. Because of that, I do see some risk associated with Dillon...at his age and with the mileage he has, it is not at all unreasonable to think his body might start breaking down. Just so happens that is exactly what many people were saying about Priest last year, and look how that turned out. :JoeT: As for Survivor II, I think LHUCKS and Boston Fred just edged me out for the #3 and #4 spots. As a top-5 finisher, I was really looking forward to competing against you guys again this year but now that I'm staff I wonder if I'm ineligible. Oh well, maybe they'll let at least let me run it if I can't be in it.
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David Yudkin
Footballguy
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. OK, let's run with that.In 2001, the Pats won the SB and had brought in ASmith at RB. Give or take a few months, Dillon is the same age now as ASmith was then. Smith was coming off seasons where he averaged 3.7, 3.7, amd 3.5 ypc. Dillon has a career 4.3 ypc. I would think that Dillon HAS to be considered better than Smith was at the same point in their careers. And what happened when ASmith came to town? He scored 213 fantasy points and was a Top 10 fantasy RB that season (ranked RB9).As I see it, the Pats don't have to change anything at all for Dillon to rank where he has previously. I think Dillon will rank in the bottom tier of RB1 or the top tier of RB2. Remember, prior to last season, Dillon had ranked 8, 17, 11, 17, 6, and 16.
bostonfred2
Footballguy
Yes, welcome back LHUCKS. Where you been?Aaron, the Patriots' system that got them to the Superbowl was not pass heavy. Look at these stats:In 2001 they had 472 rush attempts (won Superbowl) In 2002 they had 395 rush attempts (missed playoffs)In 2003 they had 473 rush attempts (won Superbowl)In 2001 they had 479 pass attempts (50% of offensive plays) In 2002 they had 601 pass attempts (60% of offensive plays)In 2003 they had 528 pass attempts (53% of offensive plays)Looking at the numbers, the Patriots aren't trying to build a pass heavy team, and it wouldn't be a significant change to their offensive philosophy for them to build an offense where Dillon gets 300+ carries. The only difference is they'd probably be more successful with it. As for Survivor II, I hope they do let staff participate. That's still the tightest draft I've been in. It's going to be interesting to see who they add to the list - before the staff announcements, I was assuming we'd get Herd and some of the other new staff in there, too.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
That would be lame if new staff couldn't participate. :cX: :cX: What's with this new Aaron vibe also?? I liked the old opinionated/tell-it-like-it-is persona. What's with this presenting both sides of the argument crap?As for where I've been, I've been in fantasy baseball land for the last three months(don't tell anybody.) A lot of academic/professional changes as well which have kept me busy also.But from here on out I'll be a regular since the real analysis and discussion begins after the NFL draft.Oh yeah and Dillon, I'm obviously on the side that says Dillon's 2003 was an aberration and his numbers were more about what was going on off the field instead of on...we will see. For now I'm with Fred...Dillon will equal value.
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LHUCKS
Footballguy
BTW Fred and Aaron, did you guys get pm'd to write for a couple of websites over the last four months? I got PMd twice and I'm almost positive it was the Survivor II draft that alerted the sites to my brilliance. Serioiusly though, I'm just curious because I thought it was odd they knew who I was since I maintain a relatively low profile once the season begins and I couldn't figure out what the connection was.
Not too sure if this was already posted in any of the previous pages.Last spring, the Pats traded veteran safety Tebucky Jones to New Orleans forthe Saints' third- and seventh-round picks in the 2003 draft and afourth-rounder in 2004. Then during the '03 draft, New England dealt thethird-rounder it had acquired from the Saints to Miami for an extrasecond-round selection this year.And on Monday that extra second-round choice, the 56th selection overall, wasthe pick the Patriots shipped to Cincinnati in exchange for Dillon.So essentially, the Pats traded Tebucky Jones for Corey Dillon, Tully Banta-Cain and a player to be chosen Sunday at #113. 
Talk about Executive of the Year. Way to go Pioli.
Talk about Executive of the Year. Way to go Pioli. 
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
Glad to see the thread got back on track 
It's worse still that I'm a Bengal fan and started this mess :JoeT: I'm just glad I have Ricky and Deuce to protect and shouldn't have to worry about Corey being there at #29.What were A Smith's #'s last year, or perhaps more to the point, what were the Patriots' goal line stats. I seem to recall BB likes to spread it out down there, using the TEs and fades and stuff, but I could be way off base. -QG
It's worse still that I'm a Bengal fan and started this mess :JoeT: I'm just glad I have Ricky and Deuce to protect and shouldn't have to worry about Corey being there at #29.What were A Smith's #'s last year, or perhaps more to the point, what were the Patriots' goal line stats. I seem to recall BB likes to spread it out down there, using the TEs and fades and stuff, but I could be way off base. -QG
:rotflmao: I didn't realize I had changed my vibe, but being bumped up to staff brings a new level of responsibility. I can still be opinionated, but I don't think it's a good idea to start posting matrix/dman type responses to people. opinion without reason is not that interesting. and, with regard to Dillon, I really just don't have a strong opinion.#1 I agree with David and Fred that he should fit in well and get enough carries to be successful.#2 I think Corey Dillon is a head case, whose behavior is difficult to predict from week to week and month to month. If they draft a rookie RB highly, the honeymoon might end quickly. Also, he didn't seem willing to be able to play through/with injuries last year, so the age/mileage issue is a valid concern to me.#3 I do not believe the Patriots offensive line is ideally built for run blocking. A.Smith's 2001 season was an aberration.Bottom line for me: I'm not a Corey Dillon fan and never had him on any of my teams until last season. Well, the one team I drafted him on finished near the bottom of that league so I'm going to stay away from him for now. Most of the things being said about him now we're also being said about him last year with the addition of Marvin Lewis and that didn't work out well at all.Regarding the other websites, I did get contacted but it was mainly for IDP content which we didn't cover in Survivor II, and I believe from my posts on the boards. I wouldn't be surprised if someone checked out the commentary from that draft in looking for staff members though. Along with the freelance articles, it's a great way to showcase one's writing abilities.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
Well, while we're all sucking each other's . . . . Helloooooooo Survivors!Yeah, Aaron's gotta tone down that ticky tacky stuff he used to do - stuff I was ALWAYS above the fray on. (Yeah, right - ummm, Bristol???)Anyway, I think comparing Dillon heading into NE based on 2001 ASmith production is a decent starting place, but probably the best place to start would be the team's overall YPC, and number of carries, from 2003. Then you must consider that Dillon will get a bit more than any one else has out of that system - one simple reason beyond the fact that he is the most talented runner to run in that 4-year old systemillon, the world's biggest complainer, has been given what he wanted - an out - and to a solid team - with a good, not great, OL - that is a WINNING team. If you don't see this as a "new life" for Dillon, I don't know what to say.Dillon has always been boom/bust week to week production wise - big then small. Mainly due ot Cincie's inconsistent ability to win and sustain efforts. I think there is an excellent chance Dillon will be boon to lesser boon week in and week out. He could be anywhere from a good RB2 to an exceptional, near elite, RB1. I could see Dillon in New England getting huge numbers on only 325-340 carries as he will be used more often to protect a lead at the end of the game.My ONLY remaining question, before I slot Dillon into a top-15 spot, is where does ASmith stand on this squad? Also, will the team draft a rookie anyway. Eating into Dillon's carries is the only thing I see standing in his way from being a very valuable member to any FF squad this upcoming year.
illon, the world's biggest complainer, has been given what he wanted - an out - and to a solid team - with a good, not great, OL - that is a WINNING team. If you don't see this as a "new life" for Dillon, I don't know what to say.Dillon has always been boom/bust week to week production wise - big then small. Mainly due ot Cincie's inconsistent ability to win and sustain efforts. I think there is an excellent chance Dillon will be boon to lesser boon week in and week out. He could be anywhere from a good RB2 to an exceptional, near elite, RB1. I could see Dillon in New England getting huge numbers on only 325-340 carries as he will be used more often to protect a lead at the end of the game.My ONLY remaining question, before I slot Dillon into a top-15 spot, is where does ASmith stand on this squad? Also, will the team draft a rookie anyway. Eating into Dillon's carries is the only thing I see standing in his way from being a very valuable member to any FF squad this upcoming year.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
P.S. - welcome back LHUCKS, where you been, missed you, blah blah blah.
QuizGuy66
Footballguy
As A Bengals fan, I couldn't help but notice this happy coincidence in the Bengals on line catalog. I think it sums it up nicely...
http://proshop.bengals.com/istar.asp?a=3&dept=01
The first item:
AUTHENTIC DILLON HOME JERSEY (on sale at 1/3 off for $150)
The 2nd item:
BABY BIB
The 3rd item:
BABY BOTTLE
The 4th item:
BABY COOLER BAG GIFT SET
The 5th item:
BABY RATTLE.
Too funny!
-QG
http://proshop.bengals.com/istar.asp?a=3&dept=01
The first item:
AUTHENTIC DILLON HOME JERSEY (on sale at 1/3 off for $150)
The 2nd item:
BABY BIB
The 3rd item:
BABY BOTTLE
The 4th item:
BABY COOLER BAG GIFT SET
The 5th item:
BABY RATTLE.
Too funny!
-QG
If guys like Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy are getting upset with Belicheck, then it wouldn't be a big surprise if Dillon and him didn't get along too well before too long.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
That is as may be, however, Dillon has always said he wants to be on a WINNING team with a good OL to really highliught his "Boss" skills. He got that last year in Cincie but was injured a lot and felt "dissed" - I doubt he will have the same "dissed" 'tude heading to the defending Super Bowl champs - that team has a winning attitude.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Agreed. The great thing about Belichick is that no player is larger than himself of the team. Prima donnas need not apply. Dillon REALLY discredited himself the last few years in my view. For years he talked about wanting to leave Cincy because he wanted to win, and then when free agency came along, he re-signed with Cincy because they gave him the most "paper". Then, when the team FINALLY got back on track, he moaned and complained because he was being dissed.
I don't think Belichick would hesitate to sit Dillon if they don't see eye to eye, and you know he'll have other plans in place at the RB position as insurance.
Congrats on the positions guys, prepare for me to play devil's advocate on any stance you take over the next five months
LHUCKS
Footballguy
I think what's being missed here is that Dillon has a passion for the game and has a great amount of self-pride. You don't put up the kind of numbers that Dillon has, run as hard as he has and become as outspoke like he has if you don't care about the game. Cincy was a God-awful place to play and Dillon as a perennial pro-bowler wanted the hell out of there and grew a distaste for the franchise, which is more than understandable IMO. At times he is a handful, but for the most part he runs as hard as anybody that has played the game.Dillon is a gamer, and I look forward to watching him re-emerge and provide me with value in the third round.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
I remember you ripping my Survivor Draft for quite a few players...as well as me winning that leagueBingo Fred... I guess that's why we were picked for Survivor II...great minds think alike
I don't know what to think of Dillon yet. Too many times have I see a star player take on a lesser role when he moves to a great team, for me to think that Dillon is a lock to be top ten.I'm sure this will be a great point of debate in the coming months, and I'm looking forward to it. 
Rustoleum
Footballguy
I gotta disagree with you here:A "Gamer" isn't the only player on the team that skips the voluntary offseason workouts.A "Gamer" doesn't leave the stadium and his team when he is inactivated right before the game because his injury is still hampering him.A "Gamer" just shuts up and plays the game. He doesn't sign a fat contract, refuse to live up to it, and then do everything possible to make it harder to get fair value in a trade.A "Gamer" isn't late for training camp.and finally,A "Gamer" doesn't turn his back at the line of scrimmage at the first sign of contact and try to backpedal for yards, as has been Dillon's tendency for the last couple of years.
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Insoxicated
I gotta agree 100% here....IIRC The WHOLE reason this #### got started between Dillon and Cincy was that Dillon was pissed that Cincy wasn't willing to do what it takes to be a contender.....he wanted to win and wasn't afforded the chance. THe guy just got tired of trying. He's not an upstanding guy.....he doesn't come without risk....but the upside is HUGE here. A healthy, motivated Dillon would be worth BOTH of our 2nd round picks.....
A quote from the blogger that interested me:
The more I think about it....the more I say that if Dillon stays healthy, the ONLY thing that will be limiting his numbers will be the manner in which he will be used in the Pats system.... My money's on 1200-1400 Yards and 6-8 TDs still....
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Bingo Fred... I guess that's why we were picked for Survivor II...great minds think alike
Well, you can have every opportunity to do that, I look forward to the challenge although I think my rankings ended up just fine, thanks.
