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Dissension in the ranks (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Ozymandias
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Absolutely they would have, at least down the stretch after Favre dinged his shoulder.Favre was too injured to play, and he was selfish in not telling the coaches that down the stretch, plain and simple. People can complain about them only calling short pass plays, but did you SEE the throws he made when they threw it further? He couldn't even get the ball within 5 yards of the intended receiver. That Seattle game was one of the most atrocious QB performances I've seen. He was AWFUL. Ryan Leaf awful, if not worse.Some stats ripped from another board:Jets were 5-1 when Thomas Jones carried 20+ times. Down that 5 game stretch at the end, he averaged 14.6 carries per game despite running for 5.2ypcIn those 5 games, Favre threw the ball 35 times per game. His BEST qb rating in those 5 games was 61.4 despite playing against 32nd, 26th, 25th, 20th, and 13th ranked pass defenses.In all honesty, as a Dolphins fan, when they showed Kellen Clemens warming up on the sideline during last weeks game I got worried. Everyone I was watching the game with was pleading for Favre to stay in, because we all knew the Jets had no chance with him in there. People ripped on LT for pulling himself out of the playoff game last year, but at least he had the selflessness to know when he was injured badly enough that forcing himself to play on it was going to hurt his team. If Favre had a broken throwing arm and two broken legs with a 30 year old Joe Montana as his backup he would want to stay in the game and play left handed from his knees. Some call that a warrior's mentality, some call it selfish.and would've been much better this year if Favre were benched.
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H.K.
Footballguy
ESPN's Mark Schlereth did a nice job of telling it like it with with regards to Thomas Jones before and after Favre getting to NY because he knows how a great QB can help a running game. To paraphrase, he said considering Jones went from 1 rushing TD to 13 and a 3.6 YPC to 4.5 this year, he should be the one most thankful for what Favre did to save Jones' career. I'll side with the former three time SB Champion on this one, because he is qualified to pass judgment and he is also 100% correct in his assessment.
Jones and any other Jets' players sharing his opinion are classless morons for biting the hand that lifted them out of the gutter. Attitudes like that are why the team was a bunch of losers before Favre showed up this season.
Jones and any other Jets' players sharing his opinion are classless morons for biting the hand that lifted them out of the gutter. Attitudes like that are why the team was a bunch of losers before Favre showed up this season.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
So just so I understand, you actually think the Jets season would've turned out differently [for the better] if Favre benched himself and Clemens or Ratliff stepped in?Absolutely they would have, at least down the stretch after Favre dinged his shoulder.Favre was too injured to play, and he was selfish in not telling the coaches that down the stretch, plain and simple. People can complain about them only calling short pass plays, but did you SEE the throws he made when they threw it further? He couldn't even get the ball within 5 yards of the intended receiver. That Seattle game was one of the most atrocious QB performances I've seen. He was AWFUL. Ryan Leaf awful, if not worse.Some stats ripped from another board:Jets were 5-1 when Thomas Jones carried 20+ times. Down that 5 game stretch at the end, he averaged 14.6 carries per game despite running for 5.2ypcIn those 5 games, Favre threw the ball 35 times per game. His BEST qb rating in those 5 games was 61.4 despite playing against 32nd, 26th, 25th, 20th, and 13th ranked pass defenses.In all honesty, as a Dolphins fan, when they showed Kellen Clemens warming up on the sideline during last weeks game I got worried. Everyone I was watching the game with was pleading for Favre to stay in, because we all knew the Jets had no chance with him in there. People ripped on LT for pulling himself out of the playoff game last year, but at least he had the selflessness to know when he was injured badly enough that forcing himself to play on it was going to hurt his team. If Favre had a broken throwing arm and two broken legs with a 30 year old Joe Montana as his backup he would want to stay in the game and play left handed from his knees. Some call that a warrior's mentality, some call it selfish.and would've been much better this year if Favre were benched.
Reaper
Footballguy
I think the Jets are on the hook for some money with Favre and if Favre is pushed out the door and convinced to retire then in the end it's for the better and helps the TEAM.
I also think the players are more upset over the fact that Favre wasn't a true team-mate than over his play... I know he critiques his play here but, in the end If favre was in the foxhole, if he was in the weight room and gaining the locker room respect like Thomas Jones did, I say no one step up and criticizes his play.....
And Fave didn't lift anyone from the gutter - the team has some real good parts and was optimistic Pre-Favre.
Phurfur
Footballguy
This is way off base. So you are blaming Jones for Benson sucking in Chicago? Jones wasn't even there the last year Benson played and I think the Bears traded Jones not Benson.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Favre went into New York believing himself to be the savior of the team and above his teammates. That stuff flew in Green Bay because he built his career there and was loved by fans, media, and his team (until he pulled the retirement drama). He was doomed to fail in NY if he didn't change that attitude, and it's obvious that he didn't. Brett needs to retire now or at the very least, leave New York.
-OZ-
Footballguy
Yeah, I don't get that comment either. Why should the older RB take care of the incoming replacement? Yet, the same guy who says TJ should have had that relationship is praising Favre for his leadership - did Brett teach Rodgers the ropes? He publicly said it wasn't his job, and Brett sure doesn't look like a leader now.
fatness
Footballguy
But since Farve has been in New York, however, he's apparently done little to generate support among his teammates. If he had performed the same way he did this year but had in some way established himself as part of a team, one of the guys, there'd be less player criticism of him now. He pays for for setting himself apart-and-above with getting criticized. And that's fair.
Phurfur
Footballguy
Yup, and I I overlooked this part.
brednbuddah
Footballguy
bit of a highjack, sorry, but I don´t think the criticism Clemens is getting can be justified on just 8 starts. The jury is still out. I think you are fair in saying Clemens played behind an abysmal line, he basically got ran over in the New England game last year.back to Favre, these comments coming out by Jones and ¨anonymous players¨ ensure Favre won´t be a Jet next year, which is a good thing for the Jets.
Phurfur
Footballguy
Do you mean like Favre took Rodgers under his wing and helped him for four years?
This statement is just off base.
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
Maybe, but he still a rat. He was a rat in Chicago, and he's a rat in NY. That can't be denied.Do you mean like Favre took Rodgers under his wing and helped him for four years?This statement is just off base.
Reaper
Footballguy
Well, maybe NY is used to rats cuz, I bet today Thomas Jones is a hero in the Jets locker room - 3 weeks ago he was voted by team mates as team MVP and I'd guarantee you he only collected more votes in the past few days..Maybe, but he still a rat. He was a rat in Chicago, and he's a rat in NY. That can't be denied.Do you mean like Favre took Rodgers under his wing and helped him for four years?This statement is just off base.
He just wants everyone on the same page and working as a team....
Give me a rat like that anytime....
JohnnyU
Footballguy
You can have the cancer.Well, maybe NY is used to rats cuz, I bet today Thomas Jones is a hero in the Jets locker room - 3 weeks ago he was voted by team mates as team MVP and I'd guarantee you he only collected more votes in the past few days..Maybe, but he still a rat. He was a rat in Chicago, and he's a rat in NY. That can't be denied.Do you mean like Favre took Rodgers under his wing and helped him for four years?
He just wants everyone on the same page and working as a team....
Give me a rat like that anytime....
LAUNCH
Footballguy
Why aren't Coles and Cotchery taking any blame in this? Especially in the case of Coles he was always hurt, looked slow, and dropped a lot of balls. When the QB has to throw the ball he needs his receivers to be able to get open and catch what is thrown to them. A QB also needs his WRs to be available for practice so that they can get the timing down. Outside of Leon Washington did anyone strike fear of breaking something big? Favre and Mangini should be taking heat for this, but I can't see why the WR's aren't getting any of it.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
After Favre hurt his shoulder? Absolutely, 100%, with nary a doubt in my mind.Besides, it's not like they could have been any worse those last 5 games. During that stretch, Favre was one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. I'm barely convinced he was a better option at the time than the Detroit revolving door. The guy could barely throw the ball, and when mixed with his gunslinger attitude, it's one of the worst combinations you can have. All you had to do was read Mangini's lips during the Dolphins game. "What the hell is he doing?" "Why the hell did he do that?".Again, the guy had a QB rating below 62 in every game down the stretch against Denver, SF, Buffalo, Seattle, and Miami. All but Buffalo sit in the bottom 3rd of NFL pass defenses, and Denver, SF, and Seattle are three of the absolute worst.Did you watch these games, especially the Seattle one? I'm not saying that to be a jerk about it or anything, but it was clear as day in actually watching these games that the guy wasn't fit to be out on the field playing quarterback, and was hurting his team by trying to force himself to do it. You could see it in all the receiver's mannerisms in the Seattle game. Watch those receivers running those routes and seeing the ball flop down 10 yards short of where they were, and watch their reactions after the play. They may as well have printed out in big bold letters "I can't believe this guy is still in the game for us".So just so I understand, you actually think the Jets season would've turned out differently [for the better] if Favre benched himself and Clemens or Ratliff stepped in?Absolutely they would have, at least down the stretch after Favre dinged his shoulder.Favre was too injured to play, and he was selfish in not telling the coaches that down the stretch, plain and simple. People can complain about them only calling short pass plays, but did you SEE the throws he made when they threw it further? He couldn't even get the ball within 5 yards of the intended receiver. That Seattle game was one of the most atrocious QB performances I've seen. He was AWFUL. Ryan Leaf awful, if not worse.Some stats ripped from another board:Jets were 5-1 when Thomas Jones carried 20+ times. Down that 5 game stretch at the end, he averaged 14.6 carries per game despite running for 5.2ypcIn those 5 games, Favre threw the ball 35 times per game. His BEST qb rating in those 5 games was 61.4 despite playing against 32nd, 26th, 25th, 20th, and 13th ranked pass defenses.In all honesty, as a Dolphins fan, when they showed Kellen Clemens warming up on the sideline during last weeks game I got worried. Everyone I was watching the game with was pleading for Favre to stay in, because we all knew the Jets had no chance with him in there. People ripped on LT for pulling himself out of the playoff game last year, but at least he had the selflessness to know when he was injured badly enough that forcing himself to play on it was going to hurt his team. If Favre had a broken throwing arm and two broken legs with a 30 year old Joe Montana as his backup he would want to stay in the game and play left handed from his knees. Some call that a warrior's mentality, some call it selfish.and would've been much better this year if Favre were benched.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Fair points, but just to play devil's advocate, isn't it the job of the coaches to pull a player who's not performing? Reid pulled McNabb in the middle of the Baltimore game, if it was so obvious to the naked eye that Favre was completely ineffective, why did they not make a switch?After Favre hurt his shoulder? Absolutely, 100%, with nary a doubt in my mind.Besides, it's not like they could have been any worse those last 5 games. During that stretch, Favre was one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. I'm barely convinced he was a better option at the time than the Detroit revolving door. The guy could barely throw the ball, and when mixed with his gunslinger attitude, it's one of the worst combinations you can have. All you had to do was read Mangini's lips during the Dolphins game. "What the hell is he doing?" "Why the hell did he do that?".Again, the guy had a QB rating below 62 in every game down the stretch against Denver, SF, Buffalo, Seattle, and Miami. All but Buffalo sit in the bottom 3rd of NFL pass defenses, and Denver, SF, and Seattle are three of the absolute worst.Did you watch these games, especially the Seattle one? I'm not saying that to be a jerk about it or anything, but it was clear as day in actually watching these games that the guy wasn't fit to be out on the field playing quarterback, and was hurting his team by trying to force himself to do it. You could see it in all the receiver's mannerisms in the Seattle game. Watch those receivers running those routes and seeing the ball flop down 10 yards short of where they were, and watch their reactions after the play. They may as well have printed out in big bold letters "I can't believe this guy is still in the game for us".So just so I understand, you actually think the Jets season would've turned out differently [for the better] if Favre benched himself and Clemens or Ratliff stepped in?Absolutely they would have, at least down the stretch after Favre dinged his shoulder.Favre was too injured to play, and he was selfish in not telling the coaches that down the stretch, plain and simple. People can complain about them only calling short pass plays, but did you SEE the throws he made when they threw it further? He couldn't even get the ball within 5 yards of the intended receiver. That Seattle game was one of the most atrocious QB performances I've seen. He was AWFUL. Ryan Leaf awful, if not worse.Some stats ripped from another board:Jets were 5-1 when Thomas Jones carried 20+ times. Down that 5 game stretch at the end, he averaged 14.6 carries per game despite running for 5.2ypcIn those 5 games, Favre threw the ball 35 times per game. His BEST qb rating in those 5 games was 61.4 despite playing against 32nd, 26th, 25th, 20th, and 13th ranked pass defenses.In all honesty, as a Dolphins fan, when they showed Kellen Clemens warming up on the sideline during last weeks game I got worried. Everyone I was watching the game with was pleading for Favre to stay in, because we all knew the Jets had no chance with him in there. People ripped on LT for pulling himself out of the playoff game last year, but at least he had the selflessness to know when he was injured badly enough that forcing himself to play on it was going to hurt his team. If Favre had a broken throwing arm and two broken legs with a 30 year old Joe Montana as his backup he would want to stay in the game and play left handed from his knees. Some call that a warrior's mentality, some call it selfish.and would've been much better this year if Favre were benched.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
Farve was the new kid in school. He didn't know anyone, excepting bubba Franks. What did the Jets players do to embrace him and make him feel welcome. As I recall some, Coles included, went out of their way to reject him. Now they say he was aloof and point to the fact that he did not train with them when he wasn't even on the team during training time?
Sure, I believe Favre could have done more to reach out to the guys. he sets himself apart with the office crap. but the guys also set themselves apart. This stuff could have, and should have, been handled internally man to man and not through the media. Minus points to Jones for being a punk and taking this public. Minus points to favre for not recognizing he needed to integrate himself to the team. Minus points to jets management for not having clarified the situation before bring Favre on.
I'm old school. I believe in character and team cohesiveness. I believe the sum must be more than the parts. I believe greatness comes when teams believe in themselves and pull together. I don't believe in assembling parts and not working on chemistry. If you ignore cohesiveness you get the Cowboys or the jets of this year. If you rally together you get seasons for the ages.
This old fool will now wonder off, grab his shawl, sit in his porch rocker and shake his fist at kids cutting across his lawn.
Sure, I believe Favre could have done more to reach out to the guys. he sets himself apart with the office crap. but the guys also set themselves apart. This stuff could have, and should have, been handled internally man to man and not through the media. Minus points to Jones for being a punk and taking this public. Minus points to favre for not recognizing he needed to integrate himself to the team. Minus points to jets management for not having clarified the situation before bring Favre on.
I'm old school. I believe in character and team cohesiveness. I believe the sum must be more than the parts. I believe greatness comes when teams believe in themselves and pull together. I don't believe in assembling parts and not working on chemistry. If you ignore cohesiveness you get the Cowboys or the jets of this year. If you rally together you get seasons for the ages.
This old fool will now wonder off, grab his shawl, sit in his porch rocker and shake his fist at kids cutting across his lawn.
Ozymandias
Footballguy
I think the real problem is, as has been mentioned above, that Favre refused to throw himself heart and soul into becoming as good as he could be. He wanted to play (and loves to play), but he wasn't willing to make the sacrifice (weight room, film, etc.), to get on the same page as his receivers and gain the trust and respect of his teammates.
And when he got hurt, it came back to bite him.
And when he got hurt, it came back to bite him.
Pure speculation. The Jets did not even get him in for an interview. If Favre was the sticking point he would have went to the interview and laid it out. It would also speak to Jets managment if they let that one factor get in the way.The key issue is more likely he knew he would not have full control like he wants.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Definitely, and I certainly don't think Mangini is absolved of blame here. It's tough for a young coach to bench a legendary player, and he would've faced an insane backlash, but he should have done it. He didn't though, and Favre should have. I doubt LT would have been benched in the playoffs if he hadn't done it himself either, but he cared enough about winning and enough about giving the guys around him the best chance to win to say to his teammates "hey guys, in my current state I think I'd be hurting the team more than helping it". It seems that at this point all that Favre really cares about is being out on the field playing football, because that's what he loves to do, regardless of how it affects the team. It's great to love playing the game, but like Thomas Jones said, that shouldn't be at the expense of hurting all the guys around you.Jason Wood said:Fair points, but just to play devil's advocate, isn't it the job of the coaches to pull a player who's not performing? Reid pulled McNabb in the middle of the Baltimore game, if it was so obvious to the naked eye that Favre was completely ineffective, why did they not make a switch?FreeBaGeL said:After Favre hurt his shoulder? Absolutely, 100%, with nary a doubt in my mind.Besides, it's not like they could have been any worse those last 5 games. During that stretch, Favre was one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. I'm barely convinced he was a better option at the time than the Detroit revolving door. The guy could barely throw the ball, and when mixed with his gunslinger attitude, it's one of the worst combinations you can have. All you had to do was read Mangini's lips during the Dolphins game. "What the hell is he doing?" "Why the hell did he do that?".Again, the guy had a QB rating below 62 in every game down the stretch against Denver, SF, Buffalo, Seattle, and Miami. All but Buffalo sit in the bottom 3rd of NFL pass defenses, and Denver, SF, and Seattle are three of the absolute worst.Did you watch these games, especially the Seattle one? I'm not saying that to be a jerk about it or anything, but it was clear as day in actually watching these games that the guy wasn't fit to be out on the field playing quarterback, and was hurting his team by trying to force himself to do it. You could see it in all the receiver's mannerisms in the Seattle game. Watch those receivers running those routes and seeing the ball flop down 10 yards short of where they were, and watch their reactions after the play. They may as well have printed out in big bold letters "I can't believe this guy is still in the game for us".Jason Wood said:So just so I understand, you actually think the Jets season would've turned out differently [for the better] if Favre benched himself and Clemens or Ratliff stepped in?FreeBaGeL said:Absolutely they would have, at least down the stretch after Favre dinged his shoulder.Favre was too injured to play, and he was selfish in not telling the coaches that down the stretch, plain and simple. People can complain about them only calling short pass plays, but did you SEE the throws he made when they threw it further? He couldn't even get the ball within 5 yards of the intended receiver. That Seattle game was one of the most atrocious QB performances I've seen. He was AWFUL. Ryan Leaf awful, if not worse.Some stats ripped from another board:Jets were 5-1 when Thomas Jones carried 20+ times. Down that 5 game stretch at the end, he averaged 14.6 carries per game despite running for 5.2ypcIn those 5 games, Favre threw the ball 35 times per game. His BEST qb rating in those 5 games was 61.4 despite playing against 32nd, 26th, 25th, 20th, and 13th ranked pass defenses.In all honesty, as a Dolphins fan, when they showed Kellen Clemens warming up on the sideline during last weeks game I got worried. Everyone I was watching the game with was pleading for Favre to stay in, because we all knew the Jets had no chance with him in there. People ripped on LT for pulling himself out of the playoff game last year, but at least he had the selflessness to know when he was injured badly enough that forcing himself to play on it was going to hurt his team. If Favre had a broken throwing arm and two broken legs with a 30 year old Joe Montana as his backup he would want to stay in the game and play left handed from his knees. Some call that a warrior's mentality, some call it selfish.flapgreen said:and would've been much better this year if Favre were benched.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Can you imagine the drama that would have ensued had Mangini pulled Favre during a game? Favre would have been texting Peter King with some dirt on Mangini from the bench and then gone live with Gretta von Frankenstein in the post-game locker room.Jason Wood said:Fair points, but just to play devil's advocate, isn't it the job of the coaches to pull a player who's not performing? Reid pulled McNabb in the middle of the Baltimore game, if it was so obvious to the naked eye that Favre was completely ineffective, why did they not make a switch?FreeBaGeL said:After Favre hurt his shoulder? Absolutely, 100%, with nary a doubt in my mind.Besides, it's not like they could have been any worse those last 5 games. During that stretch, Favre was one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. I'm barely convinced he was a better option at the time than the Detroit revolving door. The guy could barely throw the ball, and when mixed with his gunslinger attitude, it's one of the worst combinations you can have. All you had to do was read Mangini's lips during the Dolphins game. "What the hell is he doing?" "Why the hell did he do that?".Again, the guy had a QB rating below 62 in every game down the stretch against Denver, SF, Buffalo, Seattle, and Miami. All but Buffalo sit in the bottom 3rd of NFL pass defenses, and Denver, SF, and Seattle are three of the absolute worst.Did you watch these games, especially the Seattle one? I'm not saying that to be a jerk about it or anything, but it was clear as day in actually watching these games that the guy wasn't fit to be out on the field playing quarterback, and was hurting his team by trying to force himself to do it. You could see it in all the receiver's mannerisms in the Seattle game. Watch those receivers running those routes and seeing the ball flop down 10 yards short of where they were, and watch their reactions after the play. They may as well have printed out in big bold letters "I can't believe this guy is still in the game for us".Jason Wood said:So just so I understand, you actually think the Jets season would've turned out differently [for the better] if Favre benched himself and Clemens or Ratliff stepped in?FreeBaGeL said:Absolutely they would have, at least down the stretch after Favre dinged his shoulder.Favre was too injured to play, and he was selfish in not telling the coaches that down the stretch, plain and simple. People can complain about them only calling short pass plays, but did you SEE the throws he made when they threw it further? He couldn't even get the ball within 5 yards of the intended receiver. That Seattle game was one of the most atrocious QB performances I've seen. He was AWFUL. Ryan Leaf awful, if not worse.Some stats ripped from another board:Jets were 5-1 when Thomas Jones carried 20+ times. Down that 5 game stretch at the end, he averaged 14.6 carries per game despite running for 5.2ypcIn those 5 games, Favre threw the ball 35 times per game. His BEST qb rating in those 5 games was 61.4 despite playing against 32nd, 26th, 25th, 20th, and 13th ranked pass defenses.In all honesty, as a Dolphins fan, when they showed Kellen Clemens warming up on the sideline during last weeks game I got worried. Everyone I was watching the game with was pleading for Favre to stay in, because we all knew the Jets had no chance with him in there. People ripped on LT for pulling himself out of the playoff game last year, but at least he had the selflessness to know when he was injured badly enough that forcing himself to play on it was going to hurt his team. If Favre had a broken throwing arm and two broken legs with a 30 year old Joe Montana as his backup he would want to stay in the game and play left handed from his knees. Some call that a warrior's mentality, some call it selfish.flapgreen said:and would've been much better this year if Favre were benched.
fatness
Footballguy
Jason Wood
Zoo York
I don't disagree, but if we're going to discuss what SHOULD have happened versus what was in the boundaries of what was LIKELY to happen, isn't Mangini pulling Favre as reasonable as assessment as a guy with a consecutive games played streak benching himself?Can you imagine the drama that would have ensued had Mangini pulled Favre during a game? Favre would have been texting Peter King with some dirt on Mangini from the bench and then gone live with Gretta von Frankenstein in the post-game locker room.Jason Wood said:Fair points, but just to play devil's advocate, isn't it the job of the coaches to pull a player who's not performing? Reid pulled McNabb in the middle of the Baltimore game, if it was so obvious to the naked eye that Favre was completely ineffective, why did they not make a switch?FreeBaGeL said:After Favre hurt his shoulder? Absolutely, 100%, with nary a doubt in my mind.Besides, it's not like they could have been any worse those last 5 games. During that stretch, Favre was one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. I'm barely convinced he was a better option at the time than the Detroit revolving door. The guy could barely throw the ball, and when mixed with his gunslinger attitude, it's one of the worst combinations you can have. All you had to do was read Mangini's lips during the Dolphins game. "What the hell is he doing?" "Why the hell did he do that?".Again, the guy had a QB rating below 62 in every game down the stretch against Denver, SF, Buffalo, Seattle, and Miami. All but Buffalo sit in the bottom 3rd of NFL pass defenses, and Denver, SF, and Seattle are three of the absolute worst.Did you watch these games, especially the Seattle one? I'm not saying that to be a jerk about it or anything, but it was clear as day in actually watching these games that the guy wasn't fit to be out on the field playing quarterback, and was hurting his team by trying to force himself to do it. You could see it in all the receiver's mannerisms in the Seattle game. Watch those receivers running those routes and seeing the ball flop down 10 yards short of where they were, and watch their reactions after the play. They may as well have printed out in big bold letters "I can't believe this guy is still in the game for us".Jason Wood said:So just so I understand, you actually think the Jets season would've turned out differently [for the better] if Favre benched himself and Clemens or Ratliff stepped in?FreeBaGeL said:Absolutely they would have, at least down the stretch after Favre dinged his shoulder.Favre was too injured to play, and he was selfish in not telling the coaches that down the stretch, plain and simple. People can complain about them only calling short pass plays, but did you SEE the throws he made when they threw it further? He couldn't even get the ball within 5 yards of the intended receiver. That Seattle game was one of the most atrocious QB performances I've seen. He was AWFUL. Ryan Leaf awful, if not worse.Some stats ripped from another board:Jets were 5-1 when Thomas Jones carried 20+ times. Down that 5 game stretch at the end, he averaged 14.6 carries per game despite running for 5.2ypcIn those 5 games, Favre threw the ball 35 times per game. His BEST qb rating in those 5 games was 61.4 despite playing against 32nd, 26th, 25th, 20th, and 13th ranked pass defenses.In all honesty, as a Dolphins fan, when they showed Kellen Clemens warming up on the sideline during last weeks game I got worried. Everyone I was watching the game with was pleading for Favre to stay in, because we all knew the Jets had no chance with him in there. People ripped on LT for pulling himself out of the playoff game last year, but at least he had the selflessness to know when he was injured badly enough that forcing himself to play on it was going to hurt his team. If Favre had a broken throwing arm and two broken legs with a 30 year old Joe Montana as his backup he would want to stay in the game and play left handed from his knees. Some call that a warrior's mentality, some call it selfish.flapgreen said:and would've been much better this year if Favre were benched.
Moe Green
Footballguy
I was always curious why when it was obvious Favre was hurt Mangini didn't do something. He seemed very unconcerned about it. Didn't he say something like this always happens to Favre toward the end of the season?When Favre walked off the field with his arm handing by his side and in obvious pain he should have been pulled.Definitely, and I certainly don't think Mangini is absolved of blame here. It's tough for a young coach to bench a legendary player, and he would've faced an insane backlash, but he should have done it. He didn't though, and Favre should have. I doubt LT would have been benched in the playoffs if he hadn't done it himself either, but he cared enough about winning and enough about giving the guys around him the best chance to win to say to his teammates "hey guys, in my current state I think I'd be hurting the team more than helping it". It seems that at this point all that Favre really cares about is being out on the field playing football, because that's what he loves to do, regardless of how it affects the team. It's great to love playing the game, but like Thomas Jones said, that shouldn't be at the expense of hurting all the guys around you.Jason Wood said:Fair points, but just to play devil's advocate, isn't it the job of the coaches to pull a player who's not performing? Reid pulled McNabb in the middle of the Baltimore game, if it was so obvious to the naked eye that Favre was completely ineffective, why did they not make a switch?FreeBaGeL said:After Favre hurt his shoulder? Absolutely, 100%, with nary a doubt in my mind.Besides, it's not like they could have been any worse those last 5 games. During that stretch, Favre was one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. I'm barely convinced he was a better option at the time than the Detroit revolving door. The guy could barely throw the ball, and when mixed with his gunslinger attitude, it's one of the worst combinations you can have. All you had to do was read Mangini's lips during the Dolphins game. "What the hell is he doing?" "Why the hell did he do that?".Again, the guy had a QB rating below 62 in every game down the stretch against Denver, SF, Buffalo, Seattle, and Miami. All but Buffalo sit in the bottom 3rd of NFL pass defenses, and Denver, SF, and Seattle are three of the absolute worst.Did you watch these games, especially the Seattle one? I'm not saying that to be a jerk about it or anything, but it was clear as day in actually watching these games that the guy wasn't fit to be out on the field playing quarterback, and was hurting his team by trying to force himself to do it. You could see it in all the receiver's mannerisms in the Seattle game. Watch those receivers running those routes and seeing the ball flop down 10 yards short of where they were, and watch their reactions after the play. They may as well have printed out in big bold letters "I can't believe this guy is still in the game for us".Jason Wood said:So just so I understand, you actually think the Jets season would've turned out differently [for the better] if Favre benched himself and Clemens or Ratliff stepped in?FreeBaGeL said:Absolutely they would have, at least down the stretch after Favre dinged his shoulder.Favre was too injured to play, and he was selfish in not telling the coaches that down the stretch, plain and simple. People can complain about them only calling short pass plays, but did you SEE the throws he made when they threw it further? He couldn't even get the ball within 5 yards of the intended receiver. That Seattle game was one of the most atrocious QB performances I've seen. He was AWFUL. Ryan Leaf awful, if not worse.Some stats ripped from another board:Jets were 5-1 when Thomas Jones carried 20+ times. Down that 5 game stretch at the end, he averaged 14.6 carries per game despite running for 5.2ypcIn those 5 games, Favre threw the ball 35 times per game. His BEST qb rating in those 5 games was 61.4 despite playing against 32nd, 26th, 25th, 20th, and 13th ranked pass defenses.In all honesty, as a Dolphins fan, when they showed Kellen Clemens warming up on the sideline during last weeks game I got worried. Everyone I was watching the game with was pleading for Favre to stay in, because we all knew the Jets had no chance with him in there. People ripped on LT for pulling himself out of the playoff game last year, but at least he had the selflessness to know when he was injured badly enough that forcing himself to play on it was going to hurt his team. If Favre had a broken throwing arm and two broken legs with a 30 year old Joe Montana as his backup he would want to stay in the game and play left handed from his knees. Some call that a warrior's mentality, some call it selfish.flapgreen said:and would've been much better this year if Favre were benched.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
None of that changes the fact that TJ is a rat. Again, he was a rat in Chitown, and he's a rat in NY. By the way, I got great value in most trades of Benson, so I'm not bitter at all
ETA: I could dig up some dirt on you as well, but I choose not to. All of us make bad dynasty picks from time to time. I'm satisfied with my performance in dynasty leagues over the years. You do seem to single me out a lot, but that's ok. Happy New Year !! I'm making it a point not to get into anymore pis-sing contests on this board.
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Chase Stuart
Footballguy
I don't think it was Favre throwing all those blocks for Jones this year.Jones' big year wasn't because of Favre, it was because of Mangold, Faneca, Ferguson, Moore, Woody, Richardson and an easy schedule.H.K. said:
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
What should Jones have said when asked what he thought of Favre's play down the stretch?Ditkaless Wonders said:
Ookie Pringle
Footballguy
"As a team we didn't get it done down the stretch"Funny how we didn't hear any critism from the Jets about Favre when they were 8-3.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
I would think you would say a teammate stinks when he stinks, not when he doesn't stink. But that's just me.
Ookie Pringle
Footballguy
Can you imagine the drama that would have ensued had Mangini pulled Favre during a game? Favre would have been texting Peter King with some dirt on Mangini from the bench and then gone live with Gretta von Frankenstein in the post-game locker room.Jason Wood said:Fair points, but just to play devil's advocate, isn't it the job of the coaches to pull a player who's not performing? Reid pulled McNabb in the middle of the Baltimore game, if it was so obvious to the naked eye that Favre was completely ineffective, why did they not make a switch?FreeBaGeL said:After Favre hurt his shoulder? Absolutely, 100%, with nary a doubt in my mind.Besides, it's not like they could have been any worse those last 5 games. During that stretch, Favre was one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. I'm barely convinced he was a better option at the time than the Detroit revolving door. The guy could barely throw the ball, and when mixed with his gunslinger attitude, it's one of the worst combinations you can have. All you had to do was read Mangini's lips during the Dolphins game. "What the hell is he doing?" "Why the hell did he do that?".Again, the guy had a QB rating below 62 in every game down the stretch against Denver, SF, Buffalo, Seattle, and Miami. All but Buffalo sit in the bottom 3rd of NFL pass defenses, and Denver, SF, and Seattle are three of the absolute worst.Did you watch these games, especially the Seattle one? I'm not saying that to be a jerk about it or anything, but it was clear as day in actually watching these games that the guy wasn't fit to be out on the field playing quarterback, and was hurting his team by trying to force himself to do it. You could see it in all the receiver's mannerisms in the Seattle game. Watch those receivers running those routes and seeing the ball flop down 10 yards short of where they were, and watch their reactions after the play. They may as well have printed out in big bold letters "I can't believe this guy is still in the game for us".Jason Wood said:So just so I understand, you actually think the Jets season would've turned out differently [for the better] if Favre benched himself and Clemens or Ratliff stepped in?FreeBaGeL said:Absolutely they would have, at least down the stretch after Favre dinged his shoulder.Favre was too injured to play, and he was selfish in not telling the coaches that down the stretch, plain and simple. People can complain about them only calling short pass plays, but did you SEE the throws he made when they threw it further? He couldn't even get the ball within 5 yards of the intended receiver. That Seattle game was one of the most atrocious QB performances I've seen. He was AWFUL. Ryan Leaf awful, if not worse.Some stats ripped from another board:Jets were 5-1 when Thomas Jones carried 20+ times. Down that 5 game stretch at the end, he averaged 14.6 carries per game despite running for 5.2ypcIn those 5 games, Favre threw the ball 35 times per game. His BEST qb rating in those 5 games was 61.4 despite playing against 32nd, 26th, 25th, 20th, and 13th ranked pass defenses.In all honesty, as a Dolphins fan, when they showed Kellen Clemens warming up on the sideline during last weeks game I got worried. Everyone I was watching the game with was pleading for Favre to stay in, because we all knew the Jets had no chance with him in there. People ripped on LT for pulling himself out of the playoff game last year, but at least he had the selflessness to know when he was injured badly enough that forcing himself to play on it was going to hurt his team. If Favre had a broken throwing arm and two broken legs with a 30 year old Joe Montana as his backup he would want to stay in the game and play left handed from his knees. Some call that a warrior's mentality, some call it selfish.flapgreen said:and would've been much better this year if Favre were benched.
Reaper
Footballguy
Sounds good.I'm sure the Jets are 100% happy with Thomas Jones.JohnnyU said:You can have the cancer.Reaper said:Well, maybe NY is used to rats cuz, I bet today Thomas Jones is a hero in the Jets locker room - 3 weeks ago he was voted by team mates as team MVP and I'd guarantee you he only collected more votes in the past few days..JohnnyU said:Maybe, but he still a rat. He was a rat in Chicago, and he's a rat in NY. That can't be denied.Phurfur said:Do you mean like Favre took Rodgers under his wing and helped him for four years?SeniorVBDStudent said:This statement is just off base.
He just wants everyone on the same page and working as a team....
Give me a rat like that anytime....
I guess if we drafted a rookie RB and Thomas Jones ruined his career by saying mean things, I'd see things differently.
Ookie Pringle
Footballguy
That is because you have never liked Favre. In case you haven't noticed there seems to be an unwritten rule that teammates don't call each other out.
Chase Stuart
Footballguy
He didn't call him out. Someone asked him what he thought of Favre's play down the stretch. Would you like him to say I thought Favre did a great job on about half of his passes and tried really hard on the other half?Favre stunk. He knows it. Jones knows it. Everyone knows it. Favre is and will always be the first to take responsibility and say he'd old and he stunk (I think he opens every press conference stating his age). It's not exactly a secret.
Reaper
Footballguy
And THAT is the point......
It doesn't really seem like Favre was a Teammate.
Hey, I was all for the roll of the dice with Favre - I thought the Jets at 4-12 last year had no chance to compete for a SB - so, I said WTH, rol the dice with Favre.....
It was fun and all for a while but, this team needs to Teammate at QB next year - favre wil have to do some groveling and a great sales pitch to get that shot again....
I say Kudos to any Jets player who calls out a guy who is NOT truly a Teammate and who wants to go to battle next year with a guy who is with them 100%.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
When TJ has a bad year in 2009, I want him to call a press conference and tell all of us how much he stinks.
Ookie Pringle
Footballguy
Why didn't Jones whine about Favre when the Jets were 8-3?
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
He should have said he has not given thought to the matter being too busy evaluating his own play critcally. One does not have to answer every question asked. In fact, it is generally advisable not too.Alternatively he could have said that obviously the recent results have the whole team disappointed and raw, but that he has not seen the coaches tape of what Favre was viewing and could not, therefore, evaluate the play of his team mate.Hell, he could have just jumped up, shouted out "Red Flag, Red Flag, I see a Red Flag." and left the interview.He could have said his Grandma taught him to never speak ill of the dead or his elders and then have left it to the interviewer to determine whcih Jones believes Favre to be.
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tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Maybe a coach of Reid's stature can make that call. Mangini pulling Favre would have been viewed as a bolder move, and certainly taken a lot of guts on Mangini's part. As a younger coach in his first job, that's a tough move to make.But if I'm an owner or a GM, I want my head coach making that call and not worrying about the repercussions. In reality, it's not like that.I don't disagree, but if we're going to discuss what SHOULD have happened versus what was in the boundaries of what was LIKELY to happen, isn't Mangini pulling Favre as reasonable as assessment as a guy with a consecutive games played streak benching himself?Can you imagine the drama that would have ensued had Mangini pulled Favre during a game? Favre would have been texting Peter King with some dirt on Mangini from the bench and then gone live with Gretta von Frankenstein in the post-game locker room.Jason Wood said:Fair points, but just to play devil's advocate, isn't it the job of the coaches to pull a player who's not performing? Reid pulled McNabb in the middle of the Baltimore game, if it was so obvious to the naked eye that Favre was completely ineffective, why did they not make a switch?FreeBaGeL said:After Favre hurt his shoulder? Absolutely, 100%, with nary a doubt in my mind.Besides, it's not like they could have been any worse those last 5 games. During that stretch, Favre was one of the worst starting QBs in the NFL. I'm barely convinced he was a better option at the time than the Detroit revolving door. The guy could barely throw the ball, and when mixed with his gunslinger attitude, it's one of the worst combinations you can have. All you had to do was read Mangini's lips during the Dolphins game. "What the hell is he doing?" "Why the hell did he do that?".Again, the guy had a QB rating below 62 in every game down the stretch against Denver, SF, Buffalo, Seattle, and Miami. All but Buffalo sit in the bottom 3rd of NFL pass defenses, and Denver, SF, and Seattle are three of the absolute worst.Did you watch these games, especially the Seattle one? I'm not saying that to be a jerk about it or anything, but it was clear as day in actually watching these games that the guy wasn't fit to be out on the field playing quarterback, and was hurting his team by trying to force himself to do it. You could see it in all the receiver's mannerisms in the Seattle game. Watch those receivers running those routes and seeing the ball flop down 10 yards short of where they were, and watch their reactions after the play. They may as well have printed out in big bold letters "I can't believe this guy is still in the game for us".Jason Wood said:So just so I understand, you actually think the Jets season would've turned out differently [for the better] if Favre benched himself and Clemens or Ratliff stepped in?FreeBaGeL said:Absolutely they would have, at least down the stretch after Favre dinged his shoulder.Favre was too injured to play, and he was selfish in not telling the coaches that down the stretch, plain and simple. People can complain about them only calling short pass plays, but did you SEE the throws he made when they threw it further? He couldn't even get the ball within 5 yards of the intended receiver. That Seattle game was one of the most atrocious QB performances I've seen. He was AWFUL. Ryan Leaf awful, if not worse.Some stats ripped from another board:Jets were 5-1 when Thomas Jones carried 20+ times. Down that 5 game stretch at the end, he averaged 14.6 carries per game despite running for 5.2ypcIn those 5 games, Favre threw the ball 35 times per game. His BEST qb rating in those 5 games was 61.4 despite playing against 32nd, 26th, 25th, 20th, and 13th ranked pass defenses.In all honesty, as a Dolphins fan, when they showed Kellen Clemens warming up on the sideline during last weeks game I got worried. Everyone I was watching the game with was pleading for Favre to stay in, because we all knew the Jets had no chance with him in there. People ripped on LT for pulling himself out of the playoff game last year, but at least he had the selflessness to know when he was injured badly enough that forcing himself to play on it was going to hurt his team. If Favre had a broken throwing arm and two broken legs with a 30 year old Joe Montana as his backup he would want to stay in the game and play left handed from his knees. Some call that a warrior's mentality, some call it selfish.flapgreen said:and would've been much better this year if Favre were benched.
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Ookie Pringle
Footballguy
Since everyone knows it there is no reason for Jones to throw Favre under the bus. It is a bush league move and I am not surprised you support it.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
Hey good buddy,I've said already that it took balls for Thomas Jones to say that publicly, no question. However, that doesn't mean it was the right thing to do. In fact, I would say it was very much the wrong thing to do unless Jones was 100% sure that he and/or Favre weren't going to be with the Jets in 2009. It was bad form IMHO, regardless of whether the comment was accurate or not.
Stinger Ray
Footballguy
hauser42
Footballguy
Jones is no the only one calling out Favre, Kerry Rohdes has already stated that if Brett comes back he needs to be more part of the team and put the time in that the rest of the team does. Give these two guys credit for not being the unnamed teammate.For throwing a teammate under the bus, it seems like Favre wasn't much of a teammate so why would these guys guard him? Teammates are critical of each other when the team falls apart and the players at the center of it do not stand up and be accountable for their poor performance.
Stinger Ray
Footballguy
They are throwing Favre under the bus and it's something that isn't done in sports. The anti-Favre crowd didn't want to give him any credit for the Jets going 8-3 but now it is Favre's fault they didn't make the playoffs.
