The o sound in dog is virtually identical to the o sound in don, rock, God, hot, or positive. It's hard to say they're exactly identical because of the g sound at the end, but it's the same basic sound.I'm hoping fred pronounces dog like Brad Pitt does in Snatch. That would be funny.
Not only that, he's failing to realize that his perception of right/wrong on this issue is largely due to a coincidence. Were he born/raised in England, Wisconsin, Louisiana, or a slew of other English-speaking areas, he'd pronounce the words differently -- and EQUALLY legitimately.If this is your opinion, I'd have to say it comes off as an opinion of convenience, since you personally don't use the sound.
Let it go, Doug.
I was born in Massachusetts and think the Massachusetts accent is terrible, which is why I've avoided it and speak proper English instead.Not only that, he's failing to realize that his perception of right/wrong on this issue is largely due to a coincidence. Were he born/raised in England, Wisconsin, Louisiana, or a slew of other English-speaking areas, he'd pronounce the words differently -- and EQUALLY legitimately.If this is your opinion, I'd have to say it comes off as an opinion of convenience, since you personally don't use the sound.
So then dog = dawg like don = dawn?Therefore you say rawck, gawd, hawt, and pawsitive?The o sound in dog is virtually identical to the o sound in don, rock, God, hot, or positive. It's hard to say they're exactly identical because of the g sound at the end, but it's the same basic sound.I'm hoping fred pronounces dog like Brad Pitt does in Snatch. That would be funny.
If your parents named their kids Don and Dawn, the implication of the intelligence in your gene pool would explain what you're working with.I would think if we were trying to build a perfect language from scratch, we would want to avoid any ambiguities like homophones and homographs. Unfortunately such things exist in English, but we should try to reduce confusion and avoid them when possible. If we have two distinct words (with different meanings and spellings), it's clearly preferable to pronounce them differently so they can be distinguished. Thus, I have no idea what BostonFred is talking about with this "proper" nonsense. The proper way to speak is to distinguish between the different vowel sounds, so no one would ever be confused, for example, if you're talking about your brother Don or your sister Dawn.
Define "proper English".You're on record as saying that "don <> dawn" is "improper". BBC newsreaders, for example, pronounce those words differently. Will you go on record as saying the BBC folks are speaking improper English?... I've avoided it and speak proper English instead.
I will go on record again saying that you need to stop nerding up this thread.Define "proper English".You're on record as saying that "don <> dawn" is "improper". BBC newsreaders, for example, pronounce those words differently. Will you go on record as saying the BBC folks are speaking improper English?... I've avoided it and speak proper English instead.
That's pretty much Fred's pronunciations to my ears (he posted a youtube video of his pronunciations earlier). It's not an exaggerated thing, but his sounds are more like my "aw" that my "ah".There's an Iowan woman at my work who does the "AH" with all these words.Therefore you say rawck, gawd, hawt, and pawsitive?
Do you pronounce it "dug" or "duh-wg"?Let it go, Doug.
I will go on record again saying that you need to stop nerding up this thread.Define "proper English".You're on record as saying that "don <> dawn" is "improper". BBC newsreaders, for example, pronounce those words differently. Will you go on record as saying the BBC folks are speaking improper English?... I've avoided it and speak proper English instead.
He's from the smart part of the country. When EF Hutton bostonfred talks, people listen.fatguyinalittlecoat said:Do you think there are any other vowel sounds in the English language that we should get rid of? Or just this one?bostonfred said:I really don't care which order things happened in. The question is which is preferable. First, the cacaphonic pronuncuations of cawfee and doe-un are unambiguously worse on the ear. Second, the need for multiple but similar sounds in words makes the English language more difficult to learn and makes dialects more difficult to understand. It's OK for words that are spelled differently to sound the same. That's why there's a name for it. Third, your own link points out that it's spreading through the most educated areas of the country. That implies that the smart people know it's better. I'm sorry you're not part of that camp.Ilov80s said:So anyone implying that the difference in pronunciation is a new abomination to language is wrong. The merger is actually new and spreading. Fred, I am sorry, but you are a sad man. You are fighting to save our dear language and yet you yourself have unknowingly become destroyed by it. Not only entirely destroyed, but turned inside out to the point that you believe right is wrong and black is white.
Yankee23Fan said:Cot and caught do not sound alike
Well they ot too.Yankee23Fan said:Cot and caught do not sound alike
bostonfred said:If your parents named their kids Don and Dawn, the implication of the intelligence in your gene pool would explain what you're working with.Ignoratio Elenchi said:I would think if we were trying to build a perfect language from scratch, we would want to avoid any ambiguities like homophones and homographs. Unfortunately such things exist in English, but we should try to reduce confusion and avoid them when possible. If we have two distinct words (with different meanings and spellings), it's clearly preferable to pronounce them differently so they can be distinguished. Thus, I have no idea what BostonFred is talking about with this "proper" nonsense. The proper way to speak is to distinguish between the different vowel sounds, so no one would ever be confused, for example, if you're talking about your brother Don or your sister Dawn.
cot bot aught fought onslaught shot taut caught rot lotWell they ot too.Yankee23Fan said:Cot and caught do not sound alike
Not all of those rhyme with each other.....cot=bot=shot=rot=lot=pot=dot=notaught=fought=onslaught=taut=caught=taught=bought=naughtbout=shout=cloutThese are 3 very distinct pronunciation variations.Now do you get it?cot bot aught fought onslaught shot taut caught rot lotWell they ot too.Yankee23Fan said:Cot and caught do not sound alike
That doesn't make sense.This is the linguistic equivalent of two bald men fighting over a comb. You all come out of this sounding like idiots, quite literally.
Whatever, fanboy.This is the linguistic equivalent of two bald men fighting over a comb. You all come out of this sounding like idiots, quite literally.
No, I don't. I'm not sure you get it either. Lines 1 and 2 rhyme. Not sure what the hell the third line is all about.Not all of those rhyme with each other.....cot=bot=shot=rot=lot=pot=dot=notaught=fought=onslaught=taut=caught=taught=bought=naughtbout=shout=cloutThese are 3 very distinct pronunciation variations.Now do you get it?cot bot aught fought onslaught shot taut caught rot lotWell they ot too.Yankee23Fan said:Cot and caught do not sound alike
NTTAWWT.They're homophones.
I'm pretty sure everyone can agree on this.OK, this has to be shtick. All 6 of those rhyme.Mary rhymes with dairy.Marry rhymes with Larry.Merry rhymes with cherry.None of those rhyme with each other.Mary and marry = the sameMerry = different, a little upset that wasn't an option.I can't imagine people would pronounce any two of those the same way, let alone all three.what people pronounce Mary, merry, and marry differently?
I say eighgg and Grayg.I was The Midlands (no accent)One thing I realized taking that test. I say Don and Dawn slightly differently, but I still think they rhyme.I know someone who has a strange quirk. They say everything like a typical "no accent" person with one exception. They pronounce the vowel in "egg" like the "eigh" in "neighbor". I have no idea where this came from. They grew up in california and nobody in their family says it that way. When they say "Greg" they pronounce it "Grayg"
Wait, so you pronounce all of those words with the same o sound as Dawn? So dawn, pawn, lawn all rhyme with don, non, con.You'd say "I have to go mow my Lon?" This is simply absurd.bostonfred said:The o sound in dog is virtually identical to the o sound in don, rock, God, hot, or positive. It's hard to say they're exactly identical because of the g sound at the end, but it's the same basic sound.GloryDaze said:I'm hoping fred pronounces dog like Brad Pitt does in Snatch. That would be funny.
:XI say eighgg and Grayg.I was The Midlands (no accent)One thing I realized taking that test. I say Don and Dawn slightly differently, but I still think they rhyme.I know someone who has a strange quirk. They say everything like a typical "no accent" person with one exception. They pronounce the vowel in "egg" like the "eigh" in "neighbor". I have no idea where this came from. They grew up in california and nobody in their family says it that way. When they say "Greg" they pronounce it "Grayg"
:XNot all of those rhyme with each other.....cot=bot=shot=rot=lot=pot=dot=notaught=fought=onslaught=taut=caught=taught=bought=naughtbout=shout=cloutThese are 3 very distinct pronunciation variations.Now do you get it?cot bot aught fought onslaught shot taut caught rot lotWell they ot too.Yankee23Fan said:Cot and caught do not sound alike
Did you listen to Aaron's youtube? I'm curious as to how she sounded. Did she say Dawn the way Aaron said Don? I find that hard to believe. The way Aaron said Don was like he was a screaming asian.I work in a call center, and today I spoke to a woman today who said her name was "Don". Initially I thought it was weird that a woman had a guys name, but then remembered this thread. Then I pulled up her account, and yes, her name was Dawn. But she absolutely said "Don", and no, they don't sound the same.
Apparently they do.I work in a call center, and today I spoke to a woman today who said her name was "Don". Initially I thought it was weird that a woman had a guys name, but then remembered this thread. Then I pulled up her account, and yes, her name was Dawn. But she absolutely said "Don", and no, they don't sound the same.
Absurd, apparently the woman just doesn't know how to pronounce her own name.Apparently they do.I work in a call center, and today I spoke to a woman today who said her name was "Don". Initially I thought it was weird that a woman had a guys name, but then remembered this thread. Then I pulled up her account, and yes, her name was Dawn. But she absolutely said "Don", and no, they don't sound the same.
lol wtf?The way Aaron said Don was like he was a screaming asian.
No, those all rhymed.Not all of those rhyme with each other.....cot=bot=shot=rot=lot=pot=dot=notaught=fought=onslaught=taut=caught=taught=bought=naughtbout=shout=cloutThese are 3 very distinct pronunciation variations.Now do you get it?cot bot aught fought onslaught shot taut caught rot lotWell they ot too.Yankee23Fan said:Cot and caught do not sound alike
You're absurd.Wait, so you pronounce all of those words with the same o sound as Dawn? So dawn, pawn, lawn all rhyme with don, non, con.You'd say "I have to go mow my Lon?" This is simply absurd.bostonfred said:The o sound in dog is virtually identical to the o sound in don, rock, God, hot, or positive. It's hard to say they're exactly identical because of the g sound at the end, but it's the same basic sound.GloryDaze said:I'm hoping fred pronounces dog like Brad Pitt does in Snatch. That would be funny.
It was like it was the start of a race, ready.......set.........Don!lol wtf?The way Aaron said Don was like he was a screaming asian.
I was born in Massachusetts and think the Massachusetts accent is terrible, which is why I've avoided it and speak proper English instead.Not only that, he's failing to realize that his perception of right/wrong on this issue is largely due to a coincidence. Were he born/raised in England, Wisconsin, Louisiana, or a slew of other English-speaking areas, he'd pronounce the words differently -- and EQUALLY legitimately.If this is your opinion, I'd have to say it comes off as an opinion of convenience, since you personally don't use the sound.
Crawfish. / threadI need a cup of coffee - which is pronounced cahfee - and would be pronounced cahfee even if it were spelled cawfee - and should never, ever be pronounced the way you pronounce it - before I can continue edifying your ilk."Aw" vs. "Ah"Happy to help.I pronounce them the same. Not sure how they could be different.
This.sick ownage here.Anyone interested should read History of English Low Back Vowels
Go to the section called "Cot-caught" merger.
The cot-caught merger (also known as the low back merger) is a phonemic merger, a sound change, that occurs in some varieties of English...is best known as a phenomenon of many varieties of North American English.
It is very widespread across Canada, the Boston, Massachusetts area (see Boston accent) and northeastern New England, the Pittsburgh area (see Pittsburghese), and is also heard throughout the western U.S. The latter seems to be the source of its introduction into the Midwest as it appears to be spreading eastward. A recent survey directed by William Labov of the University of Pennsylvania has shown that the merger can be found today among younger generations (roughly people under 40) in Kansas, Nebraska, and the DakotasSo anyone implying that the difference in pronunciation is a new abomination to language is wrong. The merger is actually new and spreading. Fred, I am sorry, but you are a sad man. You are fighting to save our dear language and yet you yourself have unknowingly become destroyed by it. Not only entirely destroyed, but turned inside out to the point that you believe right is wrong and black is white..Labov et al. also reveal that about 15% of respondents have the merger before /n/ but not before /t/, so that Don and Dawn are homophonous, but cot and caught are not. A much smaller group (about 4%) has the reverse situation: cot and caught are homophonous but Don and Dawn are distinct.
I'm in awe. Sorry, I mean in ah.The current number minus the aw sound in cawfee would be a good start. The aw sound in Dawn is secondary to cawfee, which is easily the worst sounding mispronunciation of a word known to modern man.I'm not "looking for your opinion," I'm trying to figure out the reach of your argument. One of your primary claims is that the two sounds should be pronounced the same because it "makes the English language more difficult to learn and makes dialects more difficult to understand." But I'm fairly certain that you would agree that the language would be hopelessly confusing if there was only one vowel sound, for example. I'm just trying to figure out what you believe to be the optimal number of vowel sounds.I'm flattered that you're looking for my opinion, but I roll with the millions and millions of people who are correctly making the soft o sound and improving this world one long Don at a time.Do you think there are any other vowel sounds in the English language that we should get rid of? Or just this one?
Chick at work does thisDid she say Dawn the way Aaron said Don? I find that hard to believe.
Although ... your accent is where out-of-town sports jocks come up with the "Sawx" nickname for the Red Sox You're not C.T. from Real World: Paris, are you?I was born in Massachusetts and think the Massachusetts accent is terrible, which is why I've avoided it and speak proper English instead.
Awe should not be pronounced like awwwww. It's not a cutesy wootsy baby waby sound.I'm in awe. Sorry, I mean in ah.The current number minus the aw sound in cawfee would be a good start. The aw sound in Dawn is secondary to cawfee, which is easily the worst sounding mispronunciation of a word known to modern man.I'm not "looking for your opinion," I'm trying to figure out the reach of your argument. One of your primary claims is that the two sounds should be pronounced the same because it "makes the English language more difficult to learn and makes dialects more difficult to understand." But I'm fairly certain that you would agree that the language would be hopelessly confusing if there was only one vowel sound, for example. I'm just trying to figure out what you believe to be the optimal number of vowel sounds.I'm flattered that you're looking for my opinion, but I roll with the millions and millions of people who are correctly making the soft o sound and improving this world one long Don at a time.Do you think there are any other vowel sounds in the English language that we should get rid of? Or just this one?