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Do you personally agree with taking down confederate monuments? (1 Viewer)

-OZ- said:
Maybe where we lived before but they've learned more in Alabama than north Carolina, Virginia or we did in Michigan. 

Eta - I assume you're teaching history above elementary school. 
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High school. I can't even imagine how history should be taught in early elementary. Almost everything seems way too complicated for a 2nd grader.

 
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Ilov80s said:
I teach history and I've never seen a history book or worked with another history teacher that didn't stress the controversial elements of our history like slsvery, Jim Crow South, Japanese internment, etc.  Maybe things are different in the South? 

So what if a kid asks their parents about the statue? If the schools aren't teaching it than the parent might not have a very informed response. I get the idea of a talking point but that's also ignoring that it's also sending a message to minoroties that's pretty damn terrible imo. 
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Yeah, I've been teaching History for over 20 years.  I think I've done a decent job despite the fact that we have exactly ZERO monuments glorifying Confederates anywhere near here.

 
I am covering Tammany Hall this week.   I guess my students won't get it since we don't have any statues of Boss Tweed's Fat ###.

 
Ilov80s said:
High school. I can't even imagine how history should be taught in early elementary. Almost everything seems way too complicated for a 2nd grader.
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It's good to hear they're tackling the controversial subjects in high school better than they did when we were young, despite my attending one of the best high schools in the area (in the north).  But it sure doesn't sound like it's sinking in nationally.  

 
-OZ- said:
It's good to hear they're tackling the controversial subjects in high school better than they did when we were young, despite my attending one of the best high schools in the area (in the north).  But it sure doesn't sound like it's sinking in nationally.  
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When were you "young"? I graduated in the middle of the 80s and we covered all the "controversies".

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
I am covering Tammany Hall this week.   I guess my students won't get it since we don't have any statues of Boss Tweed's Fat ###.
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Yeah, teach that as well and then tie it into  Kwamme (although the kids now are almost too young to even know who that is) plus find some other recent examples of patronage and graft.

 
For those of you that can't understand the controversy imagine if members of your family were beaten, raped, tortured, bought and sold like they were an inanimate object. Not just some "random black people" but your family. People you love.  Then instead of throwing the people that did this to you and your family in prison, the city you live in erect statues in their honor.  Just try to imagine that. 

 
Sheriff Bart said:
For those of you that can't understand the controversy imagine if members of your family were beaten, raped, tortured, bought and sold like they were an inanimate object. Not just some "random black people" but your family. People you love.  Then instead of throwing the people that did this to you and your family in prison, the city you live in erect statues in their honor.  Just try to imagine that. 
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Are you advocating that they should have purged the South after the Civil War and strung up all those who took up arms against the Union for treason?

 
MarvinTScamper said:
I'd like to hear this argument. 
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Come on, Bro. Even the guy he was going to fight against is attributed to have saying:

“I tell you that if I were on my death-bed to-morrow, and the President of the United States should tell me that a great battle was to be fought for the liberty or slavery of the country, and asked my judgment as to the ability of a commander, I would say with my dying breath, 'Let it be Robert E. Lee.’ "

Robert E. Lee was the #### on the battlefield.  It's a shame the Civil War happened, because, with soldiers from both the North and South.......he could have really kicked the #### out of another country. 

 
Thunderlips said:
Come on, Bro. Even the guy he was going to fight against is attributed to have saying:

“I tell you that if I were on my death-bed to-morrow, and the President of the United States should tell me that a great battle was to be fought for the liberty or slavery of the country, and asked my judgment as to the ability of a commander, I would say with my dying breath, 'Let it be Robert E. Lee.’ "

Robert E. Lee was the #### on the battlefield.  It's a shame the Civil War happened, because, with soldiers from both the North and South.......he could have really kicked the #### out of another country. 
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As mentioned, this only makes him possibly the best in that war.   Great leader, sure.  We won several world wars with other generals.  I'm sure many know already Patton or Eisenhower rank highly in Rommels mind and vice versa

 
Sheriff Bart said:
For those of you that can't understand the controversy imagine if members of your family were beaten, raped, tortured, bought and sold like they were an inanimate object. Not just some "random black people" but your family. People you love.  Then instead of throwing the people that did this to you and your family in prison, the city you live in erect statues in their honor.  Just try to imagine that. 
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Emotionally charged, for sure.  To blame every leader of the Confederate army with a blanket statement seems like a leap tho. 

 
MarvinTScamper said:
Emotionally charged, for sure.  To blame every leader of the Confederate army with a blanket statement seems like a leap tho. 
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I think part of the disconnect is in honoring the person vs. honoring the Confederacy.  The Confederacy was founded on slavery.  Robert E. Lee is worthy of historical representation quite apart from that.  But he isn't made into a monument wearing the crest of Washington and Lee University.  He's wearing a Confederate uniform. It's a monument to a slave state. 

 
New Orleans had bigger fish to fry. Crime has slowly come back to pre Katrina levels. This is a diversion by the mayor.

 
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MarvinTScamper said:
As mentioned, this only makes him possibly the best in that war.   Great leader, sure.  We won several world wars with other generals.  I'm sure many know already Patton or Eisenhower rank highly in Rommels mind and vice versa
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Different eras.....but I don't know if either them are better than Lee. I think Eisenhower's a little overrated; particularly in the tactics department  There's some that would say that the war could have been won earlier if Eisenhower didn't have the influence he did. Eisenhower was great with his men, was meticulous in his planning and was able to sell the war better than just about anyone else...but I don't know if he'd been seen as complete a leader as Lee.

Patton's men loved him. He was feared and respected by his enemies.......but he was better as an attack dog than a strategic planner.  I don't know if he was better than Lee.

Maybe George Washington... MacCarthur.... Grant....Marshall...

 
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Disagree.. Stonewall Jackson was said to have personally educated his family's slaves... He was a devout Christian and the Bible makes reference to owning slaves. Comparing beliefs and understanding from 150 years ago to today is unreasonable.

 
It's a way for a bunch of white-guilt aholes to feel better about themselves (see also: changing the name of the Redskins)

 
Ditka Butkus said:
Disagree.. Stonewall Jackson was said to have personally educated his family's slaves... He was a devout Christian and the Bible makes reference to owning slaves. Comparing beliefs and understanding from 150 years ago to today is unreasonable.
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Oh, he was one of those "nice" masters.  That changes everything.

Actually none of that matters. He, like Lee, betrayed the nation he had sworn to defend.  Hell, his own sister thought he was a traitor.

 
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Transcript of NOLA mayor's speech.  Long but worth the read.

Earlier this week, as the cult of the lost cause statue of P.G.T Beauregard came down, world renowned musician Terence Blanchard stood watch, his wife Robin and their two beautiful daughters at their side.

Terence went to a high school on the edge of City Park named after one of America’s greatest heroes and patriots, John F. Kennedy. But to get there he had to pass by this monument to a man who fought to deny him his humanity.

He said, “I’ve never looked at them as a source of pride … it’s always made me feel as if they were put there by people who don’t respect us. This is something I never thought I’d see in my lifetime. It’s a sign that the world is changing.”

Yes, Terence, it is, and it is long overdue.
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Statorama said:
It's a way for a bunch of white-guilt aholes to feel better about themselves (see also: changing the name of the Redskins)
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I can understand takes on both sides of the issue but this is just a trash take. It's not guilt, it's civility and respect for black Americans. There is room to discuss this issue but if your thought process is that the only reason anyone would want to take them down is guilt then I have to question what kind of person you are. 

 
In the early 1970s Muhammad Ali fought for the heavyweight title against George Foreman. The fight was held in the African nation of Zaire; it was insensitively called the "rumble in the jungle." Ali won the fight, and upon returning to the United States, he was asked by a reporter, "Champ, what did you think of Africa?" Ali replied, "Thank God my granddaddy got on that boat!" There is a characteristic mischievous pungency to Ali's remark, yet it also expresses a widely held sentiment. Ali recognizes that for all the horror of slavery, it was the transmission belt that brought Africans into the orbit of Western freedom. The slaves were not better off—the boat Ali refers to brought the slaves through a horrific Middle Passage to a life of painful servitude—yet their descendants today, even if they won't admit it, are better off. Ali was honest enough to admit it.

 
GilbertGrape said:
In the early 1970s Muhammad Ali fought for the heavyweight title against George Foreman. The fight was held in the African nation of Zaire; it was insensitively called the "rumble in the jungle." Ali won the fight, and upon returning to the United States, he was asked by a reporter, "Champ, what did you think of Africa?" Ali replied, "Thank God my granddaddy got on that boat!" There is a characteristic mischievous pungency to Ali's remark, yet it also expresses a widely held sentiment. Ali recognizes that for all the horror of slavery, it was the transmission belt that brought Africans into the orbit of Western freedom. The slaves were not better off—the boat Ali refers to brought the slaves through a horrific Middle Passage to a life of painful servitude—yet their descendants today, even if they won't admit it, are better off. Ali was honest enough to admit it.
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Not sure I agree with this, but I can definitely see how some people would feel this way.

 
Is it art?  If it is then I am surprised that progressives would not want to defend it.  If it is not, then I can see why they would want it erased.  Piss Christ is art so it is celebrated despite objection by devout religious folk.  Sculptures of famous/infamous Confederate generals = not art, should be erased.

I get the offense taken to any remnants of the confederacy - they were traitorous and enshrined slavery - but from an art perspective are those pieces worth preserving?  I am not an art guy, just a thought that occurred to me.

 
I presume the good folks who erected these statues to honor family and heritage were all non-slave owners deeply passionate about states rights only. I presume they would be mortified that their tribute to family is being seen, by some, as oppressive and hurtful in the extreme. That was and is not what they wanted.  Now that they know how it is being received I anticipate that they will do the right thing, relocate them, and have far more detailed plaques placing the matter in proper context.  I mean the Daughters of the Confederacy don't want to be associated, rightly or wrongly, with glorifying slavery, just honorable defense of home, hearth, and states rights. Right.

 
GilbertGrape said:
In the early 1970s Muhammad Ali fought for the heavyweight title against George Foreman. The fight was held in the African nation of Zaire; it was insensitively called the "rumble in the jungle." Ali won the fight, and upon returning to the United States, he was asked by a reporter, "Champ, what did you think of Africa?" Ali replied, "Thank God my granddaddy got on that boat!" There is a characteristic mischievous pungency to Ali's remark, yet it also expresses a widely held sentiment. Ali recognizes that for all the horror of slavery, it was the transmission belt that brought Africans into the orbit of Western freedom. The slaves were not better off—the boat Ali refers to brought the slaves through a horrific Middle Passage to a life of painful servitude—yet their descendants today, even if they won't admit it, are better off. Ali was honest enough to admit it.
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I think it was an off-the-cuff remark and he was joking - as he never said anything like that before or after. Absent any other statements, I would not jump to the conclusion that he felt African Americans as slaves were better off than being in their country of origin. Please.

 
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Mr. Know-It-All said:
Is it art?  If it is then I am surprised that progressives would not want to defend it.  If it is not, then I can see why they would want it erased.  Piss Christ is art so it is celebrated despite objection by devout religious folk.  Sculptures of famous/infamous Confederate generals = not art, should be erased.

I get the offense taken to any remnants of the confederacy - they were traitorous and enshrined slavery - but from an art perspective are those pieces worth preserving?  I am not an art guy, just a thought that occurred to me.
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If I take your meaning, and I am pretty sure I do, you are advocating  surrounding these monuments in plexiglass and then filling the container with piss.  I'm going to do my part and start drinking beer immediately.

 
squistion said:
I think it was an off-the-cuff remark and he was joking - as he never said anything like that before or after. Absent any other statements, I would not jump to the conclusion that he felt African Americans as slaves were better off than being in their country of origin. Please.
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Really? You think their descendants would be better off in Africa? Please. 

 
GilbertGrape said:
1 minute ago, squistion said:

I know, hard to believe, but most of us in L.A. don't think that the institution of slavery was cool.
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Did I say it was?
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:yes:  More or less.

See bolded below. (Psst, Yeah, white guy. So? is the smoking gun).

4 minutes ago, squistion said:

James Fenimore Cooper.

You are seriously arguing that slavery was a good and beneficial thing?
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9 minutes ago, GilbertGrape said:

4 minutes ago, squistion said:

James Fenimore Cooper.

You are seriously arguing that slavery was a good and beneficial thing?
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Yeah, white guy. So?
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GilbertGrape said:
In the early 1970s Muhammad Ali fought for the heavyweight title against George Foreman. The fight was held in the African nation of Zaire; it was insensitively called the "rumble in the jungle." Ali won the fight, and upon returning to the United States, he was asked by a reporter, "Champ, what did you think of Africa?" Ali replied, "Thank God my granddaddy got on that boat!" There is a characteristic mischievous pungency to Ali's remark, yet it also expresses a widely held sentiment. Ali recognizes that for all the horror of slavery, it was the transmission belt that brought Africans into the orbit of Western freedom. The slaves were not better off—the boat Ali refers to brought the slaves through a horrific Middle Passage to a life of painful servitude—yet their descendants today, even if they won't admit it, are better off. Ali was honest enough to admit it.
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Good lord

 
OrtonToOlsen said:
Oh, he was one of those "nice" masters.  That changes everything.

Actually none of that matters. He, like Lee, betrayed the nation he had sworn to defend.  Hell, his own sister thought he was a traitor.
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Would've been a bit nicer to let them be free in the one life they had to live. 

 
I dont know how you can agree with current us race policy.  The end result of decades of work on fixing race relations has resulted in reviving the nazis.   Its complete failure.  We obviously should have tried something else. 

 
Riversco said:
I dont know how you can agree with current us race policy.  The end result of decades of work on fixing race relations has resulted in reviving the nazis.   Its complete failure.  We obviously should have tried something else. 
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Indeed. And I am getting so tired of this revival!

It has been such a nuisance with them constantly knocking on my door and wanting to distribute their pamphlets and paraphernalia (and you thought that the Mormons or the Jehovah's Witnesses were bad!) I keep telling them I don't want a free copy of Mein Kampf or a t-shirt with a swastika on it and to please go away, but a day or two later they show up again on my doorstep greeting me with Sieg Heil Y'all.

 
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